planetf1.com

I think you're exaggerating a little bit there bud. I agree Vettel Trounced the entire grid last year and was ultimately better than Webber this year but in 2010 Mark got screwed and in the first half of this season Mark was doing better than Vettel until the diffuser situation was figured out. Had it been Mark crashing out Vettel and then disregarding direct team orders in 2010 as blatantly as Vettel did, he'd not be at Red bull today, plain and simple. Webber's true weakness is his start. He has a tendency to go backwards and sometimes maintains position, but he rarely gains them going into the first corner. He does however tend to improve as the laps wear on but by then he's lost considerable ground to those ahead. Many times after pitting his pace is incredible and he reels in those ahead and it's rare for him not to be able to pass once he gets right behind someone, even before the DRS. Mark's pass on Fernando through Eau Rouge is to date one of the most insane passes we have ever seen and you don't see many people doing that in such sensational form over one of the very best in the sport on a section of a track of that magnitude.

Vettel certainly has the edge on Mark but in 2010, it was marginal and the team handled it poorly considering who was leading the championship when they put their hands up and said "don't look at us".

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Second place is the first loser!

That was a year later than this, another car. The linked article is from July 09. And designing around a body is a bit different than driving style. Throttle control and maximization of it as a tool is a skill the drivers should all be able to learn. Nearly anything like that that offers significant lap time benefits is going to be pursued regardless of "style" because at this level they should all be able to make some use of it. I can't really think of a time when Mark has struggled for race pace when Sebastian hasn't as well, on the contrary I think there have been more occasions where Mark seems happy with the car and Seb doesn't. He also wouldn't keep re upping his contract if he didn't like the cars.

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I think you're going too far on your analysis Ashley. The car might be excellent but some of its systems might be better suited towards Driver A compared to Driver B. The cars are built to a spec decided on by the engineers to maximize performance across the board BUT the engineers do know the stregths of their drivers and do in fact gear performance towards their #1 driver. If the lead Driver of a team prefers a car with a little understeer that can be corrected via additional throttling, the team would be more inclined to design the car with such traits to ensure that Driver A has the best chance of optimizing his performance to the fullest and then it's up to Driver B to either adapt and get used to it or simply deal with it and drive as best they can despite not being able to maximize performance said system offers. EBD might be faster int he case of drivers like Vettel who are perfectly comfortable with helping the car around with the throttle, but a driver like Hamilton might prefer a car that's neutral going through corners so an EBD would not compliment their driving style and vice versa. Some prefer more oversteer in which case they enter corners a bit more aggressively and ease through the apex as they go through them.

It's simply a case of different strokes for different folks, but teams and engineers do in fact build cars to a certain performance spec but make no mistake about it, the cars are usually geared towards the likes of the driver they feel gives them the best chance to do well and that's only natural.

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Second place is the first loser!

1) I'm not accountable for what "everyone" said, as "everyone" is not talking for me. I'm talking for me.
2) I'm not saying "points don't matter". I'm saying "points aren't the be all end all statistic for showing who's the better driver". I think the difference is pretty obvious.
3) That's not a post, that's a very small snippet taken from a post. Strangely enough you only bothered to take that tiny bit out and ignore the rest.



Yes yes, that's just a slightly longer version of what you posted earlier, to which I already replied.

Tell me, do you think Button outdrove Hamilton during the past 3 years?

Its a good thing they award championship trophies for being good for just half of the season.

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I used to believe it was still possible but I've come to accept it's not. Mark is still a top driver and will bag a few more race victories but he had his chance. He should have (and would have) won the 2010 title if it wasn't for that one mistake in Korea. That was his chance and since Vettel won that first title Webber has been a definitive #2 driver and will soon start declining.

Mark just makes me scratch my head sometimes. He's one of the better drivers of the past ten years, no doubt.

I still think to this day that 2010 still looms over his head and him crashing out at Korea. He's a tough and still is one of the better drivers of the field, but why not change?

I wonder sometimes if Webber reminds me of Coulthard for some reason. He gets close, but tappers off for some reason... I think he is tired of the BS behind the scenes at Red Bull with his car malfunctioning and what not. Still, I would rather see him get away from Red Bull and possibly go to Renault with Kimi. I think Mark needs a change of scenery because RBR is clearly Vettel's team and I think Mark is just basically "sticking" with RBR because the team gives him the best opportunity to win. Sometimes, I look at his face on TV and he just looks exhausted for some reason. He wants to get under the shadow of Seb and he tries his ass off, but to no avail.

We cannot deny Webber's dignity and spirit of racing. He's as tough and gritty as they come, but he needs to get away from Red Bull. Not because of the fact he cannot compete, he needs this due to the amount of BS that comes with RBR. Some might agree, some might not.

Its time for a change.

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Felipe Massa fan/supporter since 2002 and counting!

I was hoping Mark would go to Ferrari for 2013, for a change of environment. At worst it would be the same situation but at a team with prestige.

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[[[[Mark Webber for the win in 2013 and beyond]]]
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[http://www.octanic.com]]]]]]]]]]]]

For a start Alonso would not allow it to happen (Nor world Ferrari as could be a situation like 2007) Then not to mention if it did happen he would be far worse of at Ferrari, his results would be worse and he would suffer. He's had the best car for 3 seasons in a row and had fair shots of the title, the only thing is he has a team mate that's just consistently better than him. Ferrari would be an even worse situation for Webber.

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Driver Instructor & Test Driver

I'm not sure if you're implying he's sabotaged/not given enough attention but if you do - it makes no sense. Webber KERS problem = people behind him (sometimes people in the WDC hunt) benefit. My guess would be that because he's taller than Seb the car (and especially the KERS battery) needs to be more tightly packaged.

Ferrari were very interested in Webber for 2013

"Ferrari approached us first," he said. "We made the decision just before Silverstone when both teams seemed pretty interested. I'm happy with that decision."
http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f ... tid=149856

You never know, we may still see Webber in Red

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Danger is real, fear is a choice.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
Best Round Result: 1st (Monaco 2012)
Podiums: 4
2013 Championship Standing: 78th

Webber was RB's designated No.2 before Vettel won that 2010 title, Webber was never supposed to win it. I don't think he'll decline any time soon, like Jenson Button he's a very fit man. Mansell won his first WDC at 39, the Indy title at 40.

I'd like to see MW move on from Red Bull, but only to McLaren or Ferrari.

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We want heroes, but there are few, mainly it's cars - Pedro De La Rosa

Bullshit and you know it, give up on the speculation.

Aren't they one and the same? L

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Latest F1 vid I made http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C4qJXyRLDg&feature=youtu.be

I always thought car development was to improve the overall pace of the car with new parts, and car setup was to suit the car to a circuit with the driver's style in mind (done either in the sim or at the circuit). The car is made to be fast, then set up to suit the driver and, especially, the circuit they will be racing at.

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She is smarter than both of you

Her false claims!! What about yours?
"Beginning of the year Vettel was nowhere and Webber beat him most of the time." Right...

Australia: Vettel 2nd, Webber 4th (Vettel was much faster in the race). Red Bull's first podium.
Malaysia: Vettel was 4th and Webber 5th towards the end before Kartkiheyan shredded his tire.
China : Webber 4th, Vettel 5th
Bahrain: Vettel 1st, Webber 4th (RBR's first win)
Spain: Vettel 6th, Webber 11th
Monaco: Webber 1st, Vettel 4th
Canada: Vettel 4th, Webber 7th
Valencia: Vettel opens up a 20 lead and retires from lead after SF. Webber comes 4th (after 4 cars has accidents or mechanical problems...)

"Beginning of the year Vettel was nowhere and Webber beat him most of the time."
Some people are delusional no matter what....

Inappropriate post removed. Do not accuse others of trolling.

You constantly bleat about Webber's 'No. 2' status at Red Bull, yet you'd like to see him at Ferrari.

I said it before and I'll say it again, at least Ferrari wouldn't lie to him.

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"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."

Well it looks like Webber prefers Redbull's 'lies' rather than Ferrari's 'honesty'.

"Obviously with Sebastian's form, he's clearly on the front foot. Not only from within our team but he's won three world titles on the bounce now so all the drivers have got to try and topple him," Webber told Reuters.

"I don't go there thinking I've got to be playing a team role as such. I'm there for myself, to get the best results possible and to do that I need to be part of the team. So, no, I'm not going there thinking in a supporting role at all."

http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/96701.html

Has the poor lamb fallen for yet another 'lie'?

You can quote all the PR talk you want but I have no doubt in my mind that Red Bull never want Mark to win a title while Seb is in the other car. They could have sealed the deal with Mark in 2010 (probably with a race to spare) but he wasn't the favoured son.

I just think there's something to be said when this year in 4 races he clocks up 1st-7th-4th-1st, signs a contract and comes home 8th-8th-6th and a dismal Monza race in the following 4 races.

There are all sorts of conspiracies over Kimi and his loss of form in 2008. Is it too ludricous to suggest someting along the same lines here?

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"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."

I remember this entire forum calling for Red Bull to make MW driver #1 around the Singapore race in 2010, double standards much? I'd say the only things stopping Mark from the 2010 title were his two crashes, but surely that must be RBR's fault too!

It's 'PR talk' coming from Webber, you know, the erm, 'victim' of the 'lies' and 'conspiracy'.

Yeah, it's not like Webber isn't an outspoken individual or anything

If their was indeed a a huge internal problem in RBR regarding driver status's, then Webber would not be there AND would be very vocal about it.

Webber is happy in the team, he knows he's in the best team he can be in and gets a fair shot at the title but also knows he's just not as good as Vettel over the full season, he's to humble. If he could see all the theories and lies people say about RedBull he would be disappointed some fans resort to such low measures and give the good Webber fans a bad name.

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Driver Instructor & Test Driver

I was probably one of them. I thought Red Bull were nuts to take the riskier option.

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"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."

Australia: Vettel 2nd, Webber 4th Speed was comparable, Vettel inherited 2nd due to pit strategy
Malaysia: Vettel was 4th and Webber 5th Vettel RAN INTO Karthekeyan because he is arrogant.
China : Webber 4th, Vettel 5th [I can't remember this one, to be honest]
Bahrain: Vettel 1st, Webber 4th Vettel was a class above Webber in this race.
Spain: Vettel 6th, Webber 11th We all know Webber was faster at this circuit, team screwed Quali.
Monaco: Webber 1st, Vettel 4th Vettel was nowhere at this track, made excuses about chassis.
Canada: Vettel 4th, Webber 7th Not worth reading into, was a crazy tyre disaster for all.
Valencia: Vettel was definitely faster here, I cannot argue with that.

Only 2 races Vettel clearly outclassed Webber in the first half of the season. Bahrain and Valencia, more often than not Webber showed more speed in practice/quali only to get a dud pit strategy and end up with Vettel ahead.

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[[[[Mark Webber for the win in 2013 and beyond]]]
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[http://www.octanic.com]]]]]]]]]]]]

Well no doubt vettel is better but so is his car I mean come on every year he is always behind mark until redbull upgrade his car and leave mark with stock car from start of season or a few updates behind, we've seen it time and time again need I remind irvine, barrichello, massa, coulthard and now webber each driver more than capable of winning a gp but get screwed look at irvine soon as schumi is out bang he is the one to beat along with hakkinen that's because there number one is out and the major upgrades go to them now. Bet if seb got injured mark would be the the to beat guarantee it. And no I didn't mean irvine is as good as the schu I havnt got rocks in my head

Nonsense. I replied to this already. How can you claim Vettel was ahead of Webber "only" because he got a superior strategy, when Webber was already 8 seconds down on Vettel before the first pit stop?
What would you have done in RBR's case? Pit Webber on lap 10 already? Then risk tyres going off, as they were still not at all understood at that time?

Webber had a poor start, Vettel had a good race. He was better than Webber.



Karthikeyan ran into Vettel, not the other way around. Footage shows that clearly. Marshalls agreed.
Furthermore, Vettel was way better here, so that counts for one extra.



Webber had the good qualy, Vettel made up lots of places and had better race pace. Looking at the whole weekend, Webber gets this one.



And Webber was unable to make up one single place. Vettel did. Vettel also had the faster race lap. How would you "know" Webber was faster?
Vettel had to make up for a drivethrough penalty, after which Webber was quite close to Vettel, and afterwards Vettel pulled a clear gap in no time. But yeah, we "know" Webber was faster right?



On the contrary: Webber got the better race strategy, and Vettel still beat him.



Well, that's one way to skew reality. Like I said before: in the first 11 races, on race day Webber was only better at Silverstone and Monaco. That's it. Counting the whole weekend, you can include China. That's a pretty clear 8-3.

Of these first 11 races, Webber NEVER got a bad pit strategy.

You said it right that Webber was never meant to be so competitive in 2010. I think the team were very surprised at how he kept coming out on top.

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Supporting in 2012:
Mark Webber.
Lewis Hamilton.

I agree, but the question is why bother signing Mark for another year just to make him play second fiddle?

Red Bull will never want Webber to win now as it would discredit Vettel's achievements.

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Supporting in 2012:
Mark Webber.
Lewis Hamilton.

They nearly lost. Vettel could have supported Webber to an easy title but they decided to push and fight and nearly lose it all.

If the situation was reversed, Red Bull would make Webber play support without the slightest doubt.

Do you remember the Red Bull forums in 2010? How they nearly exploded with the hate the team was getting so they shut them down.

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Supporting in 2012:
Mark Webber.
Lewis Hamilton.

Because it works for them. They have Seb to win the WDC, and Mark to assist with the WCC. It's worked for three years, so why bother changing a successful formula?

I can see the question from Mark's point of view, but not Red Bull's.

Exactly. They've got a winning formula. If it ain't broke why fix it?

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"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."

There were 19 races in 2010:
Vettel and Webber both finished together 14 of 19 races. Vettel beat Webber in 10 of those and Webber in 4. One of those 4 races was Hungary, when Vettel got a penalty under SF trying to help his teammate. Webber won the race and Vettel finished 3rd there. Webber was genuinely better than Vettel in Spain and Monaco, Silverstone...

5 remaining races:
Korea 2010 : Vettel retires from lead with engine failure close to the end of the race. Webber doesn't last long in wet and crashes at the beginn...
Australia 2010: Vettel DNFs with mechanical problem from the lead.
Valencia 2010: Vettel wins while Webber crashes into Kovalainen while he was out of point scoring positions.
Turkey 2010. Vettel DNFs while passing Webber and Webber finishes 3rd.
Spa 2010: Vettel crashes into Button. As usual he was in front of Webber at that time.

Webber gets his 3-4 races in a season over Vettel, usually his favorite tracks. That is about it. Not much different to 2012 where Webber gets outraced in about 16 of 20 races. Yep, I am sure "the team were very surprised at how he kept coming out on top" . If only he could actually do it...

Finally, if they had used team orders in 2010 in favor of their inferior driver they would have made Alonso the champion with their own hands...