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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:40 pm 
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TakumaSatoforthewin wrote:
I think after three seasons of being outclassed by Vettel, he is not and never will be world championship material. He has qualified decently but his starts are rarely good, when he is good he is really good but often he is nowhere compared to his teammate and although he had two wins last season, in some races he was embarasingly bad like in Spain where he was outside the top ten. And to be sixth overall when your teammate is champion is not on. I think he should have gone to Ferrari to have a fresh start when a deal was on the table, because Red Bull arent going to give him a chance of the title and he knows it.


I think you're exaggerating a little bit there bud. I agree Vettel Trounced the entire grid last year and was ultimately better than Webber this year but in 2010 Mark got screwed and in the first half of this season Mark was doing better than Vettel until the diffuser situation was figured out. Had it been Mark crashing out Vettel and then disregarding direct team orders in 2010 as blatantly as Vettel did, he'd not be at Red bull today, plain and simple. Webber's true weakness is his start. He has a tendency to go backwards and sometimes maintains position, but he rarely gains them going into the first corner. He does however tend to improve as the laps wear on but by then he's lost considerable ground to those ahead. Many times after pitting his pace is incredible and he reels in those ahead and it's rare for him not to be able to pass once he gets right behind someone, even before the DRS. Mark's pass on Fernando through Eau Rouge is to date one of the most insane passes we have ever seen and you don't see many people doing that in such sensational form over one of the very best in the sport on a section of a track of that magnitude.

Vettel certainly has the edge on Mark but in 2010, it was marginal and the team handled it poorly considering who was leading the championship when they put their hands up and said "don't look at us".

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
I'm highly cautious of a quote reported by a German tabloid with 200k readers that is translated and made into a headline by one motorsport journalist and picked up and copied by a bunch of others, none of which come from any of the big name motorsport media outlets. Further, Christian's quote, as published in that German tabloid as part of a full interview with a headline about how bad Seb's jokes are, is that HIS (SV) car will be developed to suit his style. To me that sounds more like doing set up work, and his bit about drivers influencing the design of a car is the same everywhere - they all give feedback and wants and dislikes during the process. It was also betwixt comments about giving the drivers equal treatment until one has a significant lead in the WDC, and that that wasn't the case yet at that time.

(Also, is this the ONE time everybody here ISN'T going to say Christian is always spouting nonsense? ;) )
#

They said it on the beeb too ash. That was in full English. Newey and Horner saying the 2011 car was being built around Seb. One of the reasons being that Webber was slow to sign on the dotted line, so Newey started with what he knew was a given. Sebs body. The other was that Seb was basically #1 driver from winning the WDC onwards.

Also it's not all about getting the extra rear end grip but how it is gained.

For the EBD It was all about how the driver used the throttle which blew the diffuser.

That was a year later than this, another car. The linked article is from July 09. And designing around a body is a bit different than driving style. Throttle control and maximization of it as a tool is a skill the drivers should all be able to learn. Nearly anything like that that offers significant lap time benefits is going to be pursued regardless of "style" because at this level they should all be able to make some use of it. I can't really think of a time when Mark has struggled for race pace when Sebastian hasn't as well, on the contrary I think there have been more occasions where Mark seems happy with the car and Seb doesn't. He also wouldn't keep re upping his contract if he didn't like the cars.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:29 pm 
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I think you're going too far on your analysis Ashley. The car might be excellent but some of its systems might be better suited towards Driver A compared to Driver B. The cars are built to a spec decided on by the engineers to maximize performance across the board BUT the engineers do know the stregths of their drivers and do in fact gear performance towards their #1 driver. If the lead Driver of a team prefers a car with a little understeer that can be corrected via additional throttling, the team would be more inclined to design the car with such traits to ensure that Driver A has the best chance of optimizing his performance to the fullest and then it's up to Driver B to either adapt and get used to it or simply deal with it and drive as best they can despite not being able to maximize performance said system offers. EBD might be faster int he case of drivers like Vettel who are perfectly comfortable with helping the car around with the throttle, but a driver like Hamilton might prefer a car that's neutral going through corners so an EBD would not compliment their driving style and vice versa. Some prefer more oversteer in which case they enter corners a bit more aggressively and ease through the apex as they go through them.

It's simply a case of different strokes for different folks, but teams and engineers do in fact build cars to a certain performance spec but make no mistake about it, the cars are usually geared towards the likes of the driver they feel gives them the best chance to do well and that's only natural.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Misinformed wrote:
mds wrote:
darksides wrote:
Clearly Webber outdrove Sebastian for the entire first half of the year, the points table said so.


So now the points table is the be all end all statistic for showing the better driver?


Does this get the prize for most outrageous forum post of the year? After everyone saying "Vettel won the championship the last 3 years, where was Webber?" you're now going to say that the points don't matter? Ridiculous.


1) I'm not accountable for what "everyone" said, as "everyone" is not talking for me. I'm talking for me.
2) I'm not saying "points don't matter". I'm saying "points aren't the be all end all statistic for showing who's the better driver". I think the difference is pretty obvious.
3) That's not a post, that's a very small snippet taken from a post. Strangely enough you only bothered to take that tiny bit out and ignore the rest.

Quote:
Exactly half way through the season:
Vettel: 105 points
Webber: 120pts

Webber outscored Vettel by 15pts despite the fact that at that time, the Races stats between them were 5-5.


Yes yes, that's just a slightly longer version of what you posted earlier, to which I already replied.

Tell me, do you think Button outdrove Hamilton during the past 3 years?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:07 pm 
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Its a good thing they award championship trophies for being good for just half of the season.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:53 pm 
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I used to believe it was still possible but I've come to accept it's not. Mark is still a top driver and will bag a few more race victories but he had his chance. He should have (and would have) won the 2010 title if it wasn't for that one mistake in Korea. That was his chance and since Vettel won that first title Webber has been a definitive #2 driver and will soon start declining.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Mark just makes me scratch my head sometimes. He's one of the better drivers of the past ten years, no doubt.

I still think to this day that 2010 still looms over his head and him crashing out at Korea. He's a tough and still is one of the better drivers of the field, but why not change?

I wonder sometimes if Webber reminds me of Coulthard for some reason. He gets close, but tappers off for some reason... I think he is tired of the BS behind the scenes at Red Bull with his car malfunctioning and what not. Still, I would rather see him get away from Red Bull and possibly go to Renault with Kimi. I think Mark needs a change of scenery because RBR is clearly Vettel's team and I think Mark is just basically "sticking" with RBR because the team gives him the best opportunity to win. Sometimes, I look at his face on TV and he just looks exhausted for some reason. He wants to get under the shadow of Seb and he tries his ass off, but to no avail.

We cannot deny Webber's dignity and spirit of racing. He's as tough and gritty as they come, but he needs to get away from Red Bull. Not because of the fact he cannot compete, he needs this due to the amount of BS that comes with RBR. Some might agree, some might not.

Its time for a change.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:49 am 
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I was hoping Mark would go to Ferrari for 2013, for a change of environment. At worst it would be the same situation but at a team with prestige.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:51 am 
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darksides wrote:
I was hoping Mark would go to Ferrari for 2013, for a change of environment. At worst it would be the same situation but at a team with prestige.


For a start Alonso would not allow it to happen (Nor world Ferrari as could be a situation like 2007) Then not to mention if it did happen he would be far worse of at Ferrari, his results would be worse and he would suffer. He's had the best car for 3 seasons in a row and had fair shots of the title, the only thing is he has a team mate that's just consistently better than him. Ferrari would be an even worse situation for Webber.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:40 am 
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Ja'a wrote:
In races, Webber got plenty of clutch and KERS issues. Yet his engineer can't solve the problem. Mysterious.


I'm not sure if you're implying he's sabotaged/not given enough attention but if you do - it makes no sense. Webber KERS problem = people behind him (sometimes people in the WDC hunt) benefit. My guess would be that because he's taller than Seb the car (and especially the KERS battery) needs to be more tightly packaged.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:42 am 
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Jomox wrote:
darksides wrote:
I was hoping Mark would go to Ferrari for 2013, for a change of environment. At worst it would be the same situation but at a team with prestige.


For a start Alonso would not allow it to happen (Nor world Ferrari as could be a situation like 2007) Then not to mention if it did happen he would be far worse of at Ferrari, his results would be worse and he would suffer. He's had the best car for 3 seasons in a row and had fair shots of the title, the only thing is he has a team mate that's just consistently better than him. Ferrari would be an even worse situation for Webber.

Ferrari were very interested in Webber for 2013

"Ferrari approached us first," he said. "We made the decision just before Silverstone when both teams seemed pretty interested. I'm happy with that decision."
http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f ... tid=149856

You never know, we may still see Webber in Red

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:59 am 
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Londinium wrote:
I used to believe it was still possible but I've come to accept it's not. Mark is still a top driver and will bag a few more race victories but he had his chance. He should have (and would have) won the 2010 title if it wasn't for that one mistake in Korea. That was his chance and since Vettel won that first title Webber has been a definitive #2 driver and will soon start declining.

Webber was RB's designated No.2 before Vettel won that 2010 title, Webber was never supposed to win it. I don't think he'll decline any time soon, like Jenson Button he's a very fit man. Mansell won his first WDC at 39, the Indy title at 40.

I'd like to see MW move on from Red Bull, but only to McLaren or Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:55 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Londinium wrote:
I used to believe it was still possible but I've come to accept it's not. Mark is still a top driver and will bag a few more race victories but he had his chance. He should have (and would have) won the 2010 title if it wasn't for that one mistake in Korea. That was his chance and since Vettel won that first title Webber has been a definitive #2 driver and will soon start declining.

Webber was RB's designated No.2 before Vettel won that 2010 title, Webber was never supposed to win it. I don't think he'll decline any time soon, like Jenson Button he's a very fit man. Mansell won his first WDC at 39, the Indy title at 40.

I'd like to see MW move on from Red Bull, but only to McLaren or Ferrari.


Bullshit and you know it, give up on the speculation.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:12 am 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
Kolby wrote:
Quote:
Straight away - cars are not developed toward a particular driver's style, they are developed to be as fast and efficient as they can be. Tailoring for a style of driving in this day and age is a myth.

No it's not a myth, couldn't say it better than brundle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOhgI1hQA68



Brundle talks about car setup, not car development.

Aren't they one and the same? L

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:27 pm 
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Kolby wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
Kolby wrote:
Quote:
Straight away - cars are not developed toward a particular driver's style, they are developed to be as fast and efficient as they can be. Tailoring for a style of driving in this day and age is a myth.

No it's not a myth, couldn't say it better than brundle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOhgI1hQA68



Brundle talks about car setup, not car development.

Aren't they one and the same? L


I always thought car development was to improve the overall pace of the car with new parts, and car setup was to suit the car to a circuit with the driver's style in mind (done either in the sim or at the circuit). The car is made to be fast, then set up to suit the driver and, especially, the circuit they will be racing at.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:30 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Emerson.F wrote:
I'm also getting tires of this girl and her false claims. it is a known fact the car was build around him and Vettel is the team favourite. Beginning of the year Vettel was nowhere and Webber beat him msot of the time. Funny its always Mark who's Kers system is failing.

She lurrrves him though, and we all know love is blind. 8)

Good luck to her, she's no less biased than 98% of us males.

She is smarter than both of you :)

Her false claims!! What about yours?
"Beginning of the year Vettel was nowhere and Webber beat him most of the time." Right...

Australia: Vettel 2nd, Webber 4th (Vettel was much faster in the race). Red Bull's first podium.
Malaysia: Vettel was 4th and Webber 5th towards the end before Kartkiheyan shredded his tire.
China : Webber 4th, Vettel 5th
Bahrain: Vettel 1st, Webber 4th (RBR's first win)
Spain: Vettel 6th, Webber 11th
Monaco: Webber 1st, Vettel 4th
Canada: Vettel 4th, Webber 7th
Valencia: Vettel opens up a 20 lead and retires from lead after SF. Webber comes 4th (after 4 cars has accidents or mechanical problems...)

"Beginning of the year Vettel was nowhere and Webber beat him most of the time."
Some people are delusional no matter what....


Last edited by PacificBeach on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:42 pm 
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Inappropriate post removed. Do not accuse others of trolling.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Londinium wrote:
I used to believe it was still possible but I've come to accept it's not. Mark is still a top driver and will bag a few more race victories but he had his chance. He should have (and would have) won the 2010 title if it wasn't for that one mistake in Korea. That was his chance and since Vettel won that first title Webber has been a definitive #2 driver and will soon start declining.

Webber was RB's designated No.2 before Vettel won that 2010 title, Webber was never supposed to win it. I don't think he'll decline any time soon, like Jenson Button he's a very fit man. Mansell won his first WDC at 39, the Indy title at 40.

I'd like to see MW move on from Red Bull, but only to McLaren or Ferrari.


:lol:

You constantly bleat about Webber's 'No. 2' status at Red Bull, yet you'd like to see him at Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:21 pm 
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another_finger wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
Londinium wrote:
I used to believe it was still possible but I've come to accept it's not. Mark is still a top driver and will bag a few more race victories but he had his chance. He should have (and would have) won the 2010 title if it wasn't for that one mistake in Korea. That was his chance and since Vettel won that first title Webber has been a definitive #2 driver and will soon start declining.

Webber was RB's designated No.2 before Vettel won that 2010 title, Webber was never supposed to win it. I don't think he'll decline any time soon, like Jenson Button he's a very fit man. Mansell won his first WDC at 39, the Indy title at 40.

I'd like to see MW move on from Red Bull, but only to McLaren or Ferrari.


:lol:

You constantly bleat about Webber's 'No. 2' status at Red Bull, yet you'd like to see him at Ferrari.

I said it before and I'll say it again, at least Ferrari wouldn't lie to him.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:35 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
another_finger wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
Londinium wrote:
I used to believe it was still possible but I've come to accept it's not. Mark is still a top driver and will bag a few more race victories but he had his chance. He should have (and would have) won the 2010 title if it wasn't for that one mistake in Korea. That was his chance and since Vettel won that first title Webber has been a definitive #2 driver and will soon start declining.

Webber was RB's designated No.2 before Vettel won that 2010 title, Webber was never supposed to win it. I don't think he'll decline any time soon, like Jenson Button he's a very fit man. Mansell won his first WDC at 39, the Indy title at 40.

I'd like to see MW move on from Red Bull, but only to McLaren or Ferrari.


:lol:

You constantly bleat about Webber's 'No. 2' status at Red Bull, yet you'd like to see him at Ferrari.

I said it before and I'll say it again, at least Ferrari wouldn't lie to him.


Well it looks like Webber prefers Redbull's 'lies' rather than Ferrari's 'honesty'.

"Obviously with Sebastian's form, he's clearly on the front foot. Not only from within our team but he's won three world titles on the bounce now so all the drivers have got to try and topple him," Webber told Reuters.

"I don't go there thinking I've got to be playing a team role as such. I'm there for myself, to get the best results possible and to do that I need to be part of the team. So, no, I'm not going there thinking in a supporting role at all."


http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/96701.html

Has the poor lamb fallen for yet another 'lie'? :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:28 pm 
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another_finger wrote:
Well it looks like Webber prefers Redbull's 'lies' rather than Ferrari's 'honesty'.

"Obviously with Sebastian's form, he's clearly on the front foot. Not only from within our team but he's won three world titles on the bounce now so all the drivers have got to try and topple him," Webber told Reuters.

"I don't go there thinking I've got to be playing a team role as such. I'm there for myself, to get the best results possible and to do that I need to be part of the team. So, no, I'm not going there thinking in a supporting role at all."


http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/96701.html

Has the poor lamb fallen for yet another 'lie'? :lol:

You can quote all the PR talk you want but I have no doubt in my mind that Red Bull never want Mark to win a title while Seb is in the other car. They could have sealed the deal with Mark in 2010 (probably with a race to spare) but he wasn't the favoured son.

I just think there's something to be said when this year in 4 races he clocks up 1st-7th-4th-1st, signs a contract and comes home 8th-8th-6th and a dismal Monza race in the following 4 races.

There are all sorts of conspiracies over Kimi and his loss of form in 2008. Is it too ludricous to suggest someting along the same lines here?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:34 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
another_finger wrote:
Well it looks like Webber prefers Redbull's 'lies' rather than Ferrari's 'honesty'.

"Obviously with Sebastian's form, he's clearly on the front foot. Not only from within our team but he's won three world titles on the bounce now so all the drivers have got to try and topple him," Webber told Reuters.

"I don't go there thinking I've got to be playing a team role as such. I'm there for myself, to get the best results possible and to do that I need to be part of the team. So, no, I'm not going there thinking in a supporting role at all."


http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/96701.html

Has the poor lamb fallen for yet another 'lie'? :lol:

You can quote all the PR talk you want but I have no doubt in my mind that Red Bull never want Mark to win a title while Seb is in the other car. They could have sealed the deal with Mark in 2010 (probably with a race to spare) but he wasn't the favoured son.

I just think there's something to be said when this year in 4 races he clocks up 1st-7th-4th-1st, signs a contract and comes home 8th-8th-6th and a dismal Monza race in the following 4 races.

There are all sorts of conspiracies over Kimi and his loss of form in 2008. Is it too ludricous to suggest someting along the same lines here?


I remember this entire forum calling for Red Bull to make MW driver #1 around the Singapore race in 2010, double standards much? I'd say the only things stopping Mark from the 2010 title were his two crashes, but surely that must be RBR's fault too!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:43 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
another_finger wrote:
Well it looks like Webber prefers Redbull's 'lies' rather than Ferrari's 'honesty'.

"Obviously with Sebastian's form, he's clearly on the front foot. Not only from within our team but he's won three world titles on the bounce now so all the drivers have got to try and topple him," Webber told Reuters.

"I don't go there thinking I've got to be playing a team role as such. I'm there for myself, to get the best results possible and to do that I need to be part of the team. So, no, I'm not going there thinking in a supporting role at all."


http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/96701.html

Has the poor lamb fallen for yet another 'lie'? :lol:

You can quote all the PR talk you want but I have no doubt in my mind that Red Bull never want Mark to win a title while Seb is in the other car. They could have sealed the deal with Mark in 2010 (probably with a race to spare) but he wasn't the favoured son.

I just think there's something to be said when this year in 4 races he clocks up 1st-7th-4th-1st, signs a contract and comes home 8th-8th-6th and a dismal Monza race in the following 4 races.

There are all sorts of conspiracies over Kimi and his loss of form in 2008. Is it too ludricous to suggest someting along the same lines here?


It's 'PR talk' coming from Webber, you know, the erm, 'victim' of the 'lies' and 'conspiracy'.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:48 pm 
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another_finger wrote:

It's 'PR talk' coming from Webber, you know, the erm, 'victim' of the 'lies' and 'conspiracy'.


Yeah, it's not like Webber isn't an outspoken individual or anything ;)

If their was indeed a a huge internal problem in RBR regarding driver status's, then Webber would not be there AND would be very vocal about it.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:55 pm 
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Webber is happy in the team, he knows he's in the best team he can be in and gets a fair shot at the title but also knows he's just not as good as Vettel over the full season, he's to humble. If he could see all the theories and lies people say about RedBull he would be disappointed some fans resort to such low measures and give the good Webber fans a bad name.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:45 pm 
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MikeV1987 wrote:
I remember this entire forum calling for Red Bull to make MW driver #1 around the Singapore race in 2010, double standards much?

I was probably one of them. I thought Red Bull were nuts to take the riskier option.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:03 am 
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Australia: Vettel 2nd, Webber 4th Speed was comparable, Vettel inherited 2nd due to pit strategy
Malaysia: Vettel was 4th and Webber 5th Vettel RAN INTO Karthekeyan because he is arrogant.
China : Webber 4th, Vettel 5th [I can't remember this one, to be honest]
Bahrain: Vettel 1st, Webber 4th Vettel was a class above Webber in this race.
Spain: Vettel 6th, Webber 11th We all know Webber was faster at this circuit, team screwed Quali.
Monaco: Webber 1st, Vettel 4th Vettel was nowhere at this track, made excuses about chassis.
Canada: Vettel 4th, Webber 7th Not worth reading into, was a crazy tyre disaster for all.
Valencia: Vettel was definitely faster here, I cannot argue with that.

Only 2 races Vettel clearly outclassed Webber in the first half of the season. Bahrain and Valencia, more often than not Webber showed more speed in practice/quali only to get a dud pit strategy and end up with Vettel ahead.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:52 am 
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Well no doubt vettel is better but so is his car I mean come on every year he is always behind mark until redbull upgrade his car and leave mark with stock car from start of season or a few updates behind, we've seen it time and time again need I remind irvine, barrichello, massa, coulthard and now webber each driver more than capable of winning a gp but get screwed look at irvine soon as schumi is out bang he is the one to beat along with hakkinen that's because there number one is out and the major upgrades go to them now. Bet if seb got injured mark would be the the to beat guarantee it. And no I didn't mean irvine is as good as the schu I havnt got rocks in my head


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:45 am 
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darksides wrote:
Australia: Vettel 2nd, Webber 4th Speed was comparable, Vettel inherited 2nd due to pit strategy


Nonsense. I replied to this already. How can you claim Vettel was ahead of Webber "only" because he got a superior strategy, when Webber was already 8 seconds down on Vettel before the first pit stop?
What would you have done in RBR's case? Pit Webber on lap 10 already? Then risk tyres going off, as they were still not at all understood at that time?

Webber had a poor start, Vettel had a good race. He was better than Webber.

Quote:
Malaysia: Vettel was 4th and Webber 5th Vettel RAN INTO Karthekeyan because he is arrogant.


Karthikeyan ran into Vettel, not the other way around. Footage shows that clearly. Marshalls agreed.
Furthermore, Vettel was way better here, so that counts for one extra.

Quote:
China : Webber 4th, Vettel 5th [I can't remember this one, to be honest]


Webber had the good qualy, Vettel made up lots of places and had better race pace. Looking at the whole weekend, Webber gets this one.

Quote:
Spain: Vettel 6th, Webber 11th We all know Webber was faster at this circuit, team screwed Quali.


And Webber was unable to make up one single place. Vettel did. Vettel also had the faster race lap. How would you "know" Webber was faster?
Vettel had to make up for a drivethrough penalty, after which Webber was quite close to Vettel, and afterwards Vettel pulled a clear gap in no time. But yeah, we "know" Webber was faster right?

Quote:
Canada: Vettel 4th, Webber 7th Not worth reading into, was a crazy tyre disaster for all.


On the contrary: Webber got the better race strategy, and Vettel still beat him.

Quote:
Only 2 races Vettel clearly outclassed Webber in the first half of the season. Bahrain and Valencia, more often than not Webber showed more speed in practice/quali only to get a dud pit strategy and end up with Vettel ahead.


Well, that's one way to skew reality. Like I said before: in the first 11 races, on race day Webber was only better at Silverstone and Monaco. That's it. Counting the whole weekend, you can include China. That's a pretty clear 8-3.

Of these first 11 races, Webber NEVER got a bad pit strategy.


Last edited by mds on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:08 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Londinium wrote:
I used to believe it was still possible but I've come to accept it's not. Mark is still a top driver and will bag a few more race victories but he had his chance. He should have (and would have) won the 2010 title if it wasn't for that one mistake in Korea. That was his chance and since Vettel won that first title Webber has been a definitive #2 driver and will soon start declining.

Webber was RB's designated No.2 before Vettel won that 2010 title, Webber was never supposed to win it. I don't think he'll decline any time soon, like Jenson Button he's a very fit man. Mansell won his first WDC at 39, the Indy title at 40.

I'd like to see MW move on from Red Bull, but only to McLaren or Ferrari.

You said it right that Webber was never meant to be so competitive in 2010. I think the team were very surprised at how he kept coming out on top.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:10 am 
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mcdo wrote:
another_finger wrote:
Well it looks like Webber prefers Redbull's 'lies' rather than Ferrari's 'honesty'.

"Obviously with Sebastian's form, he's clearly on the front foot. Not only from within our team but he's won three world titles on the bounce now so all the drivers have got to try and topple him," Webber told Reuters.

"I don't go there thinking I've got to be playing a team role as such. I'm there for myself, to get the best results possible and to do that I need to be part of the team. So, no, I'm not going there thinking in a supporting role at all."


http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/96701.html

Has the poor lamb fallen for yet another 'lie'? :lol:

You can quote all the PR talk you want but I have no doubt in my mind that Red Bull never want Mark to win a title while Seb is in the other car. They could have sealed the deal with Mark in 2010 (probably with a race to spare) but he wasn't the favoured son.

I just think there's something to be said when this year in 4 races he clocks up 1st-7th-4th-1st, signs a contract and comes home 8th-8th-6th and a dismal Monza race in the following 4 races.

There are all sorts of conspiracies over Kimi and his loss of form in 2008. Is it too ludricous to suggest someting along the same lines here?



I agree, but the question is why bother signing Mark for another year just to make him play second fiddle?

Red Bull will never want Webber to win now as it would discredit Vettel's achievements.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:11 am 
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mcdo wrote:
MikeV1987 wrote:
I remember this entire forum calling for Red Bull to make MW driver #1 around the Singapore race in 2010, double standards much?

I was probably one of them. I thought Red Bull were nuts to take the riskier option.

They nearly lost. Vettel could have supported Webber to an easy title but they decided to push and fight and nearly lose it all.

If the situation was reversed, Red Bull would make Webber play support without the slightest doubt.

Do you remember the Red Bull forums in 2010? How they nearly exploded with the hate the team was getting so they shut them down.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:42 am 
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infi24r wrote:
I agree, but the question is why bother signing Mark for another year just to make him play second fiddle?

Red Bull will never want Webber to win now as it would discredit Vettel's achievements.

Because it works for them. They have Seb to win the WDC, and Mark to assist with the WCC. It's worked for three years, so why bother changing a successful formula?

I can see the question from Mark's point of view, but not Red Bull's.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:11 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
infi24r wrote:
I agree, but the question is why bother signing Mark for another year just to make him play second fiddle?

Red Bull will never want Webber to win now as it would discredit Vettel's achievements.

Because it works for them. They have Seb to win the WDC, and Mark to assist with the WCC. It's worked for three years, so why bother changing a successful formula?

I can see the question from Mark's point of view, but not Red Bull's.

:thumbup: Exactly. They've got a winning formula. If it ain't broke why fix it?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:18 pm 
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infi24r wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
Londinium wrote:
I used to believe it was still possible but I've come to accept it's not. Mark is still a top driver and will bag a few more race victories but he had his chance. He should have (and would have) won the 2010 title if it wasn't for that one mistake in Korea. That was his chance and since Vettel won that first title Webber has been a definitive #2 driver and will soon start declining.

Webber was RB's designated No.2 before Vettel won that 2010 title, Webber was never supposed to win it. I don't think he'll decline any time soon, like Jenson Button he's a very fit man. Mansell won his first WDC at 39, the Indy title at 40.

I'd like to see MW move on from Red Bull, but only to McLaren or Ferrari.

You said it right that Webber was never meant to be so competitive in 2010. I think the team were very surprised at how he kept coming out on top.

There were 19 races in 2010:
Vettel and Webber both finished together 14 of 19 races. Vettel beat Webber in 10 of those and Webber in 4. One of those 4 races was Hungary, when Vettel got a penalty under SF trying to help his teammate. Webber won the race and Vettel finished 3rd there. Webber was genuinely better than Vettel in Spain and Monaco, Silverstone...

5 remaining races:
Korea 2010 : Vettel retires from lead with engine failure close to the end of the race. Webber doesn't last long in wet and crashes at the beginn...
Australia 2010: Vettel DNFs with mechanical problem from the lead.
Valencia 2010: Vettel wins while Webber crashes into Kovalainen while he was out of point scoring positions.
Turkey 2010. Vettel DNFs while passing Webber and Webber finishes 3rd.
Spa 2010: Vettel crashes into Button. As usual he was in front of Webber at that time.

Webber gets his 3-4 races in a season over Vettel, usually his favorite tracks. That is about it. Not much different to 2012 where Webber gets outraced in about 16 of 20 races. Yep, I am sure "the team were very surprised at how he kept coming out on top" :). If only he could actually do it...

Finally, if they had used team orders in 2010 in favor of their inferior driver they would have made Alonso the champion with their own hands...


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