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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:51 pm 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20640255

Seems the changes announced this week will not have as dramatic effect on things as some on here have suggested.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:09 pm 
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But for 2014 there will be no more 'Coanda' effect - exhausts will have to exit between 3-5cm forward of the centre line of the rear wheels and no more than 25cm from the centre line of the car. From there, it will be impossible to blow them at the edges of the floor.


After seeing the start of this year before some teams "Turned it on" that could make a big difference.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:54 pm 
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Airflow over the car stems from the front wing, as the first part to hit the air. Designers are currently focused on using the ends of the wings to turn air around the outside of the front wheels. But in 2014 there will be 7cm of front wheel outside the wing, so getting the air to go around it will be that much more difficult.



Could see some interesting designs here.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:02 pm 
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I thought aero rules for 2014 were on hold?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:04 pm 
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Beschy wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20640255

Seems the changes announced this week will not have as dramatic effect on things as some on here have suggested.


I think a new crystal ball is required. The changes we will see this season are going to be so dramatic to give us the lowest down force levels in modern times. Go back to the beginning of this season when RBR were really struggling to get an idea and before the rejoicing starts, others are going to be worse off. The only consensus I have seen from the teams for the turbos is to expect a further drop in aero, though most of that will have occurred already. Then the engines themselves, 15k rev capped? Hardly getting near modern engineering limits and difficult to see any major differences in power supply, etc.

So we are going green, whoppy doo. But everything looks a lot slower and quieter. It may be racing, bit not as we know it! Then the teams have got to sign off on all of this for something that is going to cost an arm and a leg and that's not including the resigned body work for these engines. The little we are doing in 2012 will be enough get get people backed off at a very early stage and we will see after that.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:06 pm 
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Just freaking bring back the v10s of 2005 and I'll be happy.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:04 pm 
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Are they still changing the front wing size then or has Benson run away with his imagination again?

I swear they said the 2012 aero rules were here to stay.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:48 pm 
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Ev0lutionz wrote:
Just freaking bring back the v10s of 2005 and I'll be happy.

Let them use what engines they like. Bring back the Ferrari V12, some V10s, turbochargers, the works. Oh, and simplify the aero regs. A few bits of wood will cover most measurement requirements.

Let 'em loose!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:23 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Quote:
But for 2014 there will be no more 'Coanda' effect - exhausts will have to exit between 3-5cm forward of the centre line of the rear wheels and no more than 25cm from the centre line of the car. From there, it will be impossible to blow them at the edges of the floor.


After seeing the start of this year before some teams "Turned it on" that could make a big difference.

No 2014 title for Vettel then :D .

In the first half of the year before Redbull got their Coanda exhausts working, Webber was leading Vettel in the champs. Similarly at Silverstone the other year when the Redbull off throttle blowing was banned Vettel didn't look very clever.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:32 am 
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Tufty wrote:
Ev0lutionz wrote:
Just freaking bring back the v10s of 2005 and I'll be happy.

Let them use what engines they like. Bring back the Ferrari V12, some V10s, turbochargers, the works. Oh, and simplify the aero regs. A few bits of wood will cover most measurement requirements.

Let 'em loose!


Sure would be more interesting.

It's not an economy sport. If they want to be green & conservative they should just cancel all motorsport.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:23 pm 
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Beschy wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20640255

Seems the changes announced this week will not have as dramatic effect on things as some on here have suggested.


Low noses seems like an ouch for Red Bull.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:06 pm 
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cjf1 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Quote:
But for 2014 there will be no more 'Coanda' effect - exhausts will have to exit between 3-5cm forward of the centre line of the rear wheels and no more than 25cm from the centre line of the car. From there, it will be impossible to blow them at the edges of the floor.


After seeing the start of this year before some teams "Turned it on" that could make a big difference.

No 2014 title for Vettel then :D .

In the first half of the year before Redbull got their Coanda exhausts working, Webber was leading Vettel in the champs. Similarly at Silverstone the other year when the Redbull off throttle blowing was banned Vettel didn't look very clever.

You know, I don't know where people got this idea where Vettel was nowhere without the Coanda exhaust, or that he struggled and was nowhere for the first half of the season. I know this is straying OT, but I feel it should be cleared up. He led the standings after Bahrain (round 4), was equal top with Alonso after Spain (round 5), was 2nd, tied with Webber and three points behind Alonso, after Monaco (round 6), fell to third after Canada, but again just three points behind Hamilton (round 7), and then came Valencia with his retirement from the lead. After Valencia, compared to Webber:

Before round 8: 6 points ahead
After round 8: 6 points behind
After round 9: 16 points behind
After round 10: 10 points behind
After round 11: 2 points behind
After round 12: 8 points ahead, and second in the standings

So really, it's all a myth and a load of rubbish, and his "struggles" are down to his single retirement, and Webber beat him once at Silverstone.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Beschy wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20640255

Seems the changes announced this week will not have as dramatic effect on things as some on here have suggested.


Low noses seems like an ouch for Red Bull.

There won't be any low noses. Those rules have been scrapped in favour of keeping the current aero regs instead.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Beschy wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20640255

Seems the changes announced this week will not have as dramatic effect on things as some on here have suggested.


Low noses seems like an ouch for Red Bull.

There won't be any low noses. Those rules have been scrapped in favour of keeping the current aero regs instead.


It says there are still going to be low noses. All the cars have to have Brawn 2009 style noses.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Floppy_Boy wrote:
No 2014 title for Vettel then :D .

In the first half of the year before Redbull got their Coanda exhausts working, Webber was leading Vettel in the champs. Similarly at Silverstone the other year when the Redbull off throttle blowing was banned Vettel didn't look very clever.

You know, I don't know where people got this idea where Vettel was nowhere without the Coanda exhaust, or that he struggled and was nowhere for the first half of the season. I know this is straying OT, but I feel it should be cleared up. He led the standings after Bahrain (round 4), was equal top with Alonso after Spain (round 5), was 2nd, tied with Webber and three points behind Alonso, after Monaco (round 6), fell to third after Canada, but again just three points behind Hamilton (round 7), and then came Valencia with his retirement from the lead. After Valencia, compared to Webber:

Before round 8: 6 points ahead
After round 8: 6 points behind
After round 9: 16 points behind
After round 10: 10 points behind
After round 11: 2 points behind
After round 12: 8 points ahead, and second in the standings

So really, it's all a myth and a load of rubbish, and his "struggles" are down to his single retirement, and Webber beat him once at Silverstone.[/quote]

They had the Coanda before Round 8 infact IIRC since the start of the season pretty sure the "New Chassis" they brought on the last day of Pre-season was Coanda.. However Red Bull weren't the best at getting it to work. Before they got it working Webber had the advantage in quali and was doing alright in the races. It wasn't until they got it truely switched on did Vettels quali improve and did he gain on Webber.

The same trend was shown in '09 before/after the DD and then in '10 with the aggressive maps. Bit of a coincidence .

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:49 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Floppy_Boy wrote:
No 2014 title for Vettel then :D .

In the first half of the year before Redbull got their Coanda exhausts working, Webber was leading Vettel in the champs. Similarly at Silverstone the other year when the Redbull off throttle blowing was banned Vettel didn't look very clever.

You know, I don't know where people got this idea where Vettel was nowhere without the Coanda exhaust, or that he struggled and was nowhere for the first half of the season. I know this is straying OT, but I feel it should be cleared up. He led the standings after Bahrain (round 4), was equal top with Alonso after Spain (round 5), was 2nd, tied with Webber and three points behind Alonso, after Monaco (round 6), fell to third after Canada, but again just three points behind Hamilton (round 7), and then came Valencia with his retirement from the lead. After Valencia, compared to Webber:

Before round 8: 6 points ahead
After round 8: 6 points behind
After round 9: 16 points behind
After round 10: 10 points behind
After round 11: 2 points behind
After round 12: 8 points ahead, and second in the standings

So really, it's all a myth and a load of rubbish, and his "struggles" are down to his single retirement, and Webber beat him once at Silverstone.


They had the Coanda before Round 8 infact IIRC since the start of the season pretty sure the "New Chassis" they brought on the last day of Pre-season was Coanda.. However Red Bull weren't the best at getting it to work. Before they got it working Webber had the advantage in quali and was doing alright in the races. It wasn't until they got it truely switched on did Vettels quali improve and did he gain on Webber.

The same trend was shown in '09 before/after the DD and then in '10 with the aggressive maps. Bit of a coincidence .[/quote]

You have to remember Webber's reputation in his Jaguar days as a blistering qualifier. It seems that Vettel is better able to take advantage of various things, but that doesn't negate that Webber is a very, very fast driver.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:53 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:

You have to remember Webber's reputation in his Jaguar days as a blistering qualifier. It seems that Vettel is better able to take advantage of various things, but that doesn't negate that Webber is a very, very fast driver.



I know he is but when you can see a direct correlation in the inter team battle with developments on one particular part of the car over 3/4 years, you not think there is something in it?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:55 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Eva09 wrote:

You have to remember Webber's reputation in his Jaguar days as a blistering qualifier. It seems that Vettel is better able to take advantage of various things, but that doesn't negate that Webber is a very, very fast driver.



I know he is but when you can see a direct correlation in the inter team battle with developments on one particular part of the car over 3/4 years, you not think there is something in it?


Yes probably.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:12 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Beschy wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20640255

Seems the changes announced this week will not have as dramatic effect on things as some on here have suggested.


Low noses seems like an ouch for Red Bull.

There won't be any low noses. Those rules have been scrapped in favour of keeping the current aero regs instead.


It says there are still going to be low noses. All the cars have to have Brawn 2009 style noses.

They'll still be ugly as sin with the wide wings.

Also Newey did alright with a low nose in 2005. Red Bull will be fine since the change affects every team on the grid, not just them.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:14 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Eva09 wrote:

You have to remember Webber's reputation in his Jaguar days as a blistering qualifier. It seems that Vettel is better able to take advantage of various things, but that doesn't negate that Webber is a very, very fast driver.



I know he is but when you can see a direct correlation in the inter team battle with developments on one particular part of the car over 3/4 years, you not think there is something in it?


Yes probably.

I actually agree. And I hear the qualifying point too, but up to and including Valencia, Vettel had 3 poles to the one pole Webber inherited, so I can't understand why people say he struggled compared to Webber. Webber might have run him closer than normal, and he might have struggled to assert the dominance we had seen in 2011 over Webber, but all things considered, I wouldn't say he struggled.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:14 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Beschy wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20640255

Seems the changes announced this week will not have as dramatic effect on things as some on here have suggested.


Low noses seems like an ouch for Red Bull.

There won't be any low noses. Those rules have been scrapped in favour of keeping the current aero regs instead.


It says there are still going to be low noses. All the cars have to have Brawn 2009 style noses.

They'll still be ugly as sin with the wide wings.

Also Newey did alright with a low nose in 2005. Red Bull will be fine since the change affects every team on the grid, not just them.


Yeah who am I kidding this is Adrian Newey we are talking about.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:10 pm 
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the front wings will be a tiny bit smaller in width than they are now-i 'd like to see 4 or 6 inches off -isn't anyone else hacked off with the endless pistops for front wings


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:16 pm 
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slide wrote:
the front wings will be a tiny bit smaller in width than they are now-i 'd like to see 4 or 6 inches off -isn't anyone else hacked off with the endless pistops for front wings


Nope! They should learn the dimensions of the cars when they drive them. I can't see the end of my car bonnet but I don't bump it into things!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:28 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
slide wrote:
the front wings will be a tiny bit smaller in width than they are now-i 'd like to see 4 or 6 inches off -isn't anyone else hacked off with the endless pistops for front wings


Nope! They should learn the dimensions of the cars when they drive them. I can't see the end of my car bonnet but I don't bump it into things!


I agree that the front wings should be narrowed. Right now there are too many punctures and broken front wings. It gets in the way of the racing.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:33 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
slide wrote:
the front wings will be a tiny bit smaller in width than they are now-i 'd like to see 4 or 6 inches off -isn't anyone else hacked off with the endless pistops for front wings


Nope! They should learn the dimensions of the cars when they drive them. I can't see the end of my car bonnet but I don't bump it into things!


I agree that the front wings should be narrowed. Right now there are too many punctures and broken front wings. It gets in the way of the racing.


It's part of the racing!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:52 pm 
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Floppy_Boy wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Eva09 wrote:

You have to remember Webber's reputation in his Jaguar days as a blistering qualifier. It seems that Vettel is better able to take advantage of various things, but that doesn't negate that Webber is a very, very fast driver.



I know he is but when you can see a direct correlation in the inter team battle with developments on one particular part of the car over 3/4 years, you not think there is something in it?


Yes probably.

I actually agree. And I hear the qualifying point too, but up to and including Valencia, Vettel had 3 poles to the one pole Webber inherited, so I can't understand why people say he struggled compared to Webber. Webber might have run him closer than normal, and he might have struggled to assert the dominance we had seen in 2011 over Webber, but all things considered, I wouldn't say he struggled.

The point is Webber has run him quite close most of the time aside from when they ran a blown rear end on the car.

If you look at the finishing positions in this years races, in the first 3rd of the season he had probably the 2nd quickest car and yet only reached the podium twice , typically finishing 4th-6th, performing at a more or less equal level to Webber and Alonso.

In the second third, when they started to get the coanda effect working better and with probably the 1st/2nd quickest car he started to outperform Webber but still only managed a couple of podiums and performed worse than Alonso.

In the final 3rd when they got it really working and they had the 1st/2nd quickest car he really started to perform and obviously pulled much better results than all his competitors.

We can't tell if Vettel starts to excel with a better planted rear end or if Webber isn't as comfortable with the blown diffusers (footage from previous years does seem to suggest Seb is more comfortable, for example opening the DRS earlier exiting bends.), but as Johnson pointed out there does seem to be a correlation between the blown rear end aero and a noticable upturn in Vettels performance, as such he might reasonably be expected to suffer relatively speaking from the end of blown rear aero.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:11 am 
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Eva09 wrote:
Beschy wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20640255

Seems the changes announced this week will not have as dramatic effect on things as some on here have suggested.


Low noses seems like an ouch for Red Bull.

my guess would be that RBR are going to lose out on the 2013 campaign as the 2014 car gives them a major headache... teams will be quite close in terms of performance in 2013 - probably even closer then they were in 2012 so it will be all about sacrificing the 2013 campaign for 2014 and beyond or vice versa

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:28 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
They'll still be ugly as sin with the wide wings.

Also Newey did alright with a low nose in 2005. Red Bull will be fine since the change affects every team on the grid, not just them.

i always thought they were quite ugly with the narrow but higher wings:
Image

so they will nose-wise look like the 2000-2008 cars, but with a bit wider wing... still narrower than 2009:
Image

meh... we had to deal with uglier things...
Image

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:46 pm 
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Wait so, can someone clear things up for me, I've been away for a week or so and have lost track of news. Have the aero changes of 2014 been scrapped or are they still going ahead? Last thing I hard were that low noses and the rest of it were cancelled (Big shame in my opinion) But if they're now still going ahead with these aero changes then woo! :D

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