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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:19 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
sutil had his chance. he was average then anything else, therefore he should not be signed up. there are many drivers who deserve a seat like kk, alguersuari, bianchi, senna and buemi.

Doesn't being average per definition mean that you belong in F1 though, i.e. half the grid are worse?

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
sutil had his chance. he was average then anything else, therefore he should not be signed up. there are many drivers who deserve a seat like kk, alguersuari, bianchi, senna and buemi.

Doesn't being average per definition mean that you belong in F1 though, i.e. half the grid are worse?


Who exactly is worse? Most of the rookies that have come over the past couple years have shown more promise than Sutil ever has.


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:33 pm 
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MikeV1987 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
sutil had his chance. he was average then anything else, therefore he should not be signed up. there are many drivers who deserve a seat like kk, alguersuari, bianchi, senna and buemi.

Doesn't being average per definition mean that you belong in F1 though, i.e. half the grid are worse?


Who exactly is worse? Most of the rookies that have come over the past couple years have shown more promise than Sutil ever has.


yeah because crashing every race is a hell lot of promise , isnt it ?

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:38 pm 
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RebellionLola wrote:
MikeV1987 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
sutil had his chance. he was average then anything else, therefore he should not be signed up. there are many drivers who deserve a seat like kk, alguersuari, bianchi, senna and buemi.

Doesn't being average per definition mean that you belong in F1 though, i.e. half the grid are worse?


Who exactly is worse? Most of the rookies that have come over the past couple years have shown more promise than Sutil ever has.


yeah because crashing every race is a hell lot of promise , isnt it ?


Sutil wasn't exactly clean either. They are better off putting Bianchi in the second seat, at least he's got some seat time in practice sessions along with FR 3.5 this year, compared to Sutil who didn't race at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:07 pm 
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RebellionLola wrote:
MikeV1987 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
sutil had his chance. he was average then anything else, therefore he should not be signed up. there are many drivers who deserve a seat like kk, alguersuari, bianchi, senna and buemi.

Doesn't being average per definition mean that you belong in F1 though, i.e. half the grid are worse?


Who exactly is worse? Most of the rookies that have come over the past couple years have shown more promise than Sutil ever has.


yeah because crashing every race is a hell lot of promise , isnt it ?


People like you are why some drivers get completely unfair reputations. Some people still label Kobayashi as accident prone because of his first race! It's amazing how some people have short memories, yet others have very long but selective memories.

I can't think of any incidents involving Sutil in his last 2 seasons in F1. I'm sure there were some but none spring to mind. I can remember those early in in his career like Singapore 2009 and I think Germany 2009 where he tangled with Kimi coming out of the pit lane to lose a points finish, but the fact I remember those and none during 2010 or 2011 kinda shows how much he improved.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:17 pm 
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As stated am not for Sutil returning, however he finished 9th in his last season with FI. Hulk or Di Resta could not manage that this season when the FI this season has been the same strength as last. Sutil was more consistent than both of them and we all know how high everyone rates the Hulk.


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:18 am 
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Jomox wrote:
As stated am not for Sutil returning, however he finished 9th in his last season with FI. Hulk or Di Resta could not manage that this season when the FI this season has been the same strength as last. Sutil was more consistent than both of them and we all know how high everyone rates the Hulk.


Sutil also has more experience in F1 than both of them put together.


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:42 am 
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Sutil Comeback?

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:57 am 
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MikeV1987 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
sutil had his chance. he was average then anything else, therefore he should not be signed up. there are many drivers who deserve a seat like kk, alguersuari, bianchi, senna and buemi.

Doesn't being average per definition mean that you belong in F1 though, i.e. half the grid are worse?


Who exactly is worse? Most of the rookies that have come over the past couple years have shown more promise than Sutil ever has.

I don't know, aski diablof1.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:24 am 
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In most likelihood, Force India will bring back Sutil, thanks to Mallya's preference for him. But expectations of Sutil in such a comeback session are just average. He's probably lost his pizzazz after a year outside the limelight.

What would be more promising is if Force India could get an even younger driver like Bianchi who has the ambition/drive/motivation to do well in an middle-class car. Bianchi is desperate to impress the likes of Ferrari for a seat in his latter years and will be willing to take those risky overtaking maneuvres to impress. Of course, there is a chance of horrible crashes, but that boils down to his ability as a driver and whether he wants to see a 2014 season.

But I don't think Paul or Sutil would take such overt chances anymore. They'll probably be more reluctant and conservative in their middle order, probably aiming for those sixth or seventh place in the championship - unless of course for some miraculous reason, they happen to be in the chasing for the world championship.


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:34 am 
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aryaputhra wrote:
In most likelihood, Force India will bring back Sutil, thanks to Mallya's preference for him. But expectations of Sutil in such a comeback session are just average. He's probably lost his pizzazz after a year outside the limelight.

What would be more promising is if Force India could get an even younger driver like Bianchi who has the ambition/drive/motivation to do well in an middle-class car. Bianchi is desperate to impress the likes of Ferrari for a seat in his latter years and will be willing to take those risky overtaking maneuvres to impress. Of course, there is a chance of horrible crashes, but that boils down to his ability as a driver and whether he wants to see a 2014 season.

But I don't think Paul or Sutil would take such overt chances anymore. They'll probably be more reluctant and conservative in their middle order, probably aiming for those sixth or seventh place in the championship - unless of course for some miraculous reason, they happen to be in the chasing for the world championship.


Hulk had an enforced sabbatical and it's not done him any harm!

That said I don't know what it is about average German drivers but they seem to have a lot of vocal fans who believe they're something special and deserve to be racing in F1 (Heidfeld for example)

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:45 am 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Hulk had an enforced sabbatical and it's not done him any harm!


True, it hasn't done Hulk any harm. :-P But he's also fairly bit younger to Sutil and probably had the ambition/drive to get noticed in the 2012 season. Whereas Sutil will be at a veteran age (30 next year) in F1 terms to do anything remarkable. Even the all-knowing Michael Schumacher died down as he got older, didn't he?

SilverstoneRegular wrote:
That said I don't know what it is about average German drivers but they seem to have a lot of vocal fans who believe they're something special and deserve to be racing in F1 (Heidfeld for example)


Agree. German pride, perhaps? ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:55 am 
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Jomox wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Jomox wrote:
But in F1 it's not just about beating your team mate, it's about showing you are capable of F1 even in midfield teams as others have done before getting a better driver. Buemi and Alguersuari were both very very average and never shown anything special and got dropped as a result, that's F1.

Regardless of how they compare to Sutil he at least did enough to keep a seat in F1 and would of stayed if it was not for him nearly killing someone. (Even if he was not a world beater)

Sutil had sponsorship money from Medion. That's why he kept his seat so long, that and there wasn't exactly an influx of young talent in the 07-10 period save for Hamilton and Vettel. If he didn't have those millions then I doubt he'd have seen 2009 with FI.

But he was just as average a driver as either of the two you mentioned.


Okay so , is The Hulk also average? As Sutil beat Di Resta better than the Hulk. Hulk & Di Resta both was very close untill the last few races of the season. Yes Di Resta was a rookie but who's to say he's actually improved this season, however 2011 and 2012 the Force India was pretty much the same in terms of speed yet Sutil managed to finish 9th in 2011 while the Hulk 11th this year. So even though you don't think the Hulk is average by saying Sutil is average (despite doing better than the Hulk in the FI) you are really saying he is.

I'm just bringing up the reality of the situation, I never rated Sutil to be that good (Not world beater but he did okay) and I don't believe anyone who did what Sutil did should be coming back to F1, in fact he should of been locked up.


but how can sutil be same as the the hulk based on what you said? sutil had 4 years of experience under his belt when facing di resta, hulk did not drive season before and prior to that he had one season with williams.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:10 am 
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Force India are set to announce their 2nd driver this week:-

http://www.f1reader.com/#/news/force-india-to-announce-driver-this-week-64388

In the article, a god source from within the team has said that Sutil has the best chance to return cause of his experience whereas Bianchi is yet too inexperienced to be given the seat!

Sutil does have sponsors but also has experience & the required pace (2nd half of 2011), to be given 1 last shot. His equation with the Force India management is his biggest advantage of getting the deal done!

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:16 am 
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You can't use experience as an excuse if a driver is rated as the second coming and one of the next greats, and lets remember Hulk wasn't exactly a rookie ,time out yes but he got back up to speed pretty quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:38 am 
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Jomox wrote:
You can't use experience as an excuse if a driver is rated as the second coming and one of the next greats, and lets remember Hulk wasn't exactly a rookie ,time out yes but he got back up to speed pretty quickly.


no one said hulk is rated as the second coming or rated as the next great :-P it was more like he has potential but so do other drivers like perez.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:49 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Force India are set to announce their 2nd driver this week:-

http://www.f1reader.com/#/news/force-india-to-announce-driver-this-week-64388

In the article, a god source from within the team has said that Sutil has the best chance to return cause of his experience whereas Bianchi is yet too inexperienced to be given the seat!

Sutil does have sponsors but also has experience & the required pace (2nd half of 2011), to be given 1 last shot. His equation with the Force India management is his biggest advantage of getting the deal done!

while i don't doubt it to be true this has popped up on several news agencies over the past week with the same quote from a source in the team, quite interesting most usually say so and so is getting it but this says basically that sutil os favourite and that KK and BS are also in the running. If they are about to announce it surely they know who it is rather than who is favourite if they truly are a top source?


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:15 pm 
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potter84 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Force India are set to announce their 2nd driver this week:-

http://www.f1reader.com/#/news/force-india-to-announce-driver-this-week-64388

In the article, a god source from within the team has said that Sutil has the best chance to return cause of his experience whereas Bianchi is yet too inexperienced to be given the seat!

Sutil does have sponsors but also has experience & the required pace (2nd half of 2011), to be given 1 last shot. His equation with the Force India management is his biggest advantage of getting the deal done!

while i don't doubt it to be true this has popped up on several news agencies over the past week with the same quote from a source in the team, quite interesting most usually say so and so is getting it but this says basically that sutil os favourite and that KK and BS are also in the running. If they are about to announce it surely they know who it is rather than who is favourite if they truly are a top source?


Well 1 thing is fr sure that the announcement is due very soon as Vijay Mallya makes the announcement of the lineup close to the Christmas party he hosts every year & it happens around Dec 15.

Vijay Mallya had given a strong hint that it might be Sutil because he said none of the drivers on the current grid he felt were good enough to partner Di Resta, which means some one who was not on the grid in 2012.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:17 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
potter84 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Force India are set to announce their 2nd driver this week:-

http://www.f1reader.com/#/news/force-india-to-announce-driver-this-week-64388

In the article, a god source from within the team has said that Sutil has the best chance to return cause of his experience whereas Bianchi is yet too inexperienced to be given the seat!

Sutil does have sponsors but also has experience & the required pace (2nd half of 2011), to be given 1 last shot. His equation with the Force India management is his biggest advantage of getting the deal done!

while i don't doubt it to be true this has popped up on several news agencies over the past week with the same quote from a source in the team, quite interesting most usually say so and so is getting it but this says basically that sutil os favourite and that KK and BS are also in the running. If they are about to announce it surely they know who it is rather than who is favourite if they truly are a top source?


Well 1 thing is fr sure that the announcement is due very soon as Vijay Mallya makes the announcement of the lineup close to the Christmas party he hosts every year & it happens around Dec 15.

Vijay Mallya had given a strong hint that it might be Sutil because he said none of the drivers on the current grid he felt were good enough to partner Di Resta, which means some one who was not on the grid in 2012.

Xmas party was last Saturday they have pics and quotes on twitter ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:20 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
potter84 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Force India are set to announce their 2nd driver this week:-

http://www.f1reader.com/#/news/force-india-to-announce-driver-this-week-64388

In the article, a god source from within the team has said that Sutil has the best chance to return cause of his experience whereas Bianchi is yet too inexperienced to be given the seat!

Sutil does have sponsors but also has experience & the required pace (2nd half of 2011), to be given 1 last shot. His equation with the Force India management is his biggest advantage of getting the deal done!

while i don't doubt it to be true this has popped up on several news agencies over the past week with the same quote from a source in the team, quite interesting most usually say so and so is getting it but this says basically that sutil os favourite and that KK and BS are also in the running. If they are about to announce it surely they know who it is rather than who is favourite if they truly are a top source?


Well 1 thing is fr sure that the announcement is due very soon as Vijay Mallya makes the announcement of the lineup close to the Christmas party he hosts every year & it happens around Dec 15.

Vijay Mallya had given a strong hint that it might be Sutil because he said none of the drivers on the current grid he felt were good enough to partner Di Resta, which means some one who was not on the grid in 2012.

as for not being good enough to partner di resta that makes me worry for VJM as di resta has been poor tail end the whole first corner incident with hulk and senna a few races back and the retirement in brazil two prime examples off the top of my head


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:23 pm 
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potter84 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
potter84 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Force India are set to announce their 2nd driver this week:-

http://www.f1reader.com/#/news/force-india-to-announce-driver-this-week-64388

In the article, a god source from within the team has said that Sutil has the best chance to return cause of his experience whereas Bianchi is yet too inexperienced to be given the seat!

Sutil does have sponsors but also has experience & the required pace (2nd half of 2011), to be given 1 last shot. His equation with the Force India management is his biggest advantage of getting the deal done!

while i don't doubt it to be true this has popped up on several news agencies over the past week with the same quote from a source in the team, quite interesting most usually say so and so is getting it but this says basically that sutil os favourite and that KK and BS are also in the running. If they are about to announce it surely they know who it is rather than who is favourite if they truly are a top source?


Well 1 thing is fr sure that the announcement is due very soon as Vijay Mallya makes the announcement of the lineup close to the Christmas party he hosts every year & it happens around Dec 15.

Vijay Mallya had given a strong hint that it might be Sutil because he said none of the drivers on the current grid he felt were good enough to partner Di Resta, which means some one who was not on the grid in 2012.

Xmas party was last Saturday they have pics and quotes on twitter ;-)


Oops! Then the driver surely must've been decided! This week will be on high radar, waiting to get further hints from sources all over.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:22 pm 
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potter84 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
potter84 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Force India are set to announce their 2nd driver this week:-

http://www.f1reader.com/#/news/force-india-to-announce-driver-this-week-64388

In the article, a god source from within the team has said that Sutil has the best chance to return cause of his experience whereas Bianchi is yet too inexperienced to be given the seat!

Sutil does have sponsors but also has experience & the required pace (2nd half of 2011), to be given 1 last shot. His equation with the Force India management is his biggest advantage of getting the deal done!

while i don't doubt it to be true this has popped up on several news agencies over the past week with the same quote from a source in the team, quite interesting most usually say so and so is getting it but this says basically that sutil os favourite and that KK and BS are also in the running. If they are about to announce it surely they know who it is rather than who is favourite if they truly are a top source?


Well 1 thing is fr sure that the announcement is due very soon as Vijay Mallya makes the announcement of the lineup close to the Christmas party he hosts every year & it happens around Dec 15.

Vijay Mallya had given a strong hint that it might be Sutil because he said none of the drivers on the current grid he felt were good enough to partner Di Resta, which means some one who was not on the grid in 2012.

as for not being good enough to partner di resta that makes me worry for VJM as di resta has been poor tail end the whole first corner incident with hulk and senna a few races back and the retirement in brazil two prime examples off the top of my head


Agree with you. Di Resta is not being consistent enough.

A dream team would be Sutil & Kobayashi.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:57 pm 
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No dream team would have Sutil in it. He had his chance, he didn't do anything with it. One 4th place in 5 seasons is not enough to earn/keep a place in the elite. He's 30 soon as well. Let some new blood have a chance.

If Force India have any ambitions to move up the grid at all they'll forget all about Sutil. If they want mediocrity then they'll employ him longside Di Resta. Simple as that.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
No dream team would have Sutil in it. He had his chance, he didn't do anything with it. One 4th place in 5 seasons is not enough to earn/keep a place in the elite. He's 30 soon as well. Let some new blood have a chance.

If Force India have any ambitions to move up the grid at all they'll forget all about Sutil. If they want mediocrity then they'll employ him longside Di Resta. Simple as that.


You forget that he was in backmarker cars in 07, 08 and 09 and only a midfield car during 2010 & 2011. I don't think anyone would have challenged for wins and podiums in those cars.

Remember Sutil finished 9th in the 2011 WDC, behind only the Red Bull, Mclaren, Ferrari and Mercedes drivers, that's a very impressive achievement for a guy in a midfield car.
As a Force India fan I'd be happy to see Sutil back at the team, Di Resta is the one they need to get rid of.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:19 pm 
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CesareF1 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No dream team would have Sutil in it. He had his chance, he didn't do anything with it. One 4th place in 5 seasons is not enough to earn/keep a place in the elite. He's 30 soon as well. Let some new blood have a chance.

If Force India have any ambitions to move up the grid at all they'll forget all about Sutil. If they want mediocrity then they'll employ him longside Di Resta. Simple as that.


You forget that he was in backmarker cars in 07, 08 and 09 and only a midfield car during 2010 & 2011. I don't think anyone would have challenged for wins and podiums in those cars.

Remember Sutil finished 9th in the 2011 WDC, behind only the Red Bull, Mclaren, Ferrari and Mercedes drivers, that's a very impressive achievement for a guy in a midfield car.
As a Force India fan I'd be happy to see Sutil back at the team, Di Resta is the one they need to get rid of.


If Lotus was driven by Petrov and Senna this year, expect The Hulk to be in 9th position. While Sutil only once challenging for podium at Monza 2009, Hulkenburg had a pole, fighting for podium and top 5 position, and even fighting for the win, in a car slower than Red Bull, Ferrari, Mclaren, Lotus, Williams and Sauber.

Other than the 4 teams u mentioned, which car was faster than FI last year other than the declining Lotus? Well i think it's not impressive, it's just where Sutil should belong. He was 9th yet his best finish position was 6th place, while Hulkenburg's 11th has 3 top 5 finishes and another 8 top 10.

And di Resta may not be up there with Hulkenburg, but has shown an improvement in race compared to last year. Both of them scored points more than Sutil's 42 last year. (Hulkenburg 63 Di Resta 47)


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Very talented driver indeed. I'd like him to come back because I think he should have gone to Merc GP with Rosberg... Honestly, I think so if Hamilton did not get the seat (which he did).

Monaco 2008 is a race many do not remember, but he would have had a major penalty (passing under yellow flag conditions) where he was rammed by Kimi. He's much better than what people give him credit for. Remember the last half of 2011? Sutil was on fire and especially at Brazil where he had that fantastic 6th place finish passing Rosberg with ease.

He's on a similar level to Rosberg, but at a cheaper price. I would have Sutil over Rosberg anyday IMO.

Also, I think people are being a bit hard about Sutil considering he was with Force India when it was Midland and the man knows the team. If, HRT can sign De La Rosa for his background. They can do the same for Adrian. Enough of this nonsense about China, let this man drive and I know he can compete. Just give him the car.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:15 pm 
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sutil is the next nelson piquet , nigel mansel

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:12 am 
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CesareF1 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No dream team would have Sutil in it. He had his chance, he didn't do anything with it. One 4th place in 5 seasons is not enough to earn/keep a place in the elite. He's 30 soon as well. Let some new blood have a chance.

If Force India have any ambitions to move up the grid at all they'll forget all about Sutil. If they want mediocrity then they'll employ him longside Di Resta. Simple as that.


You forget that he was in backmarker cars in 07, 08 and 09 and only a midfield car during 2010 & 2011. I don't think anyone would have challenged for wins and podiums in those cars.

Remember Sutil finished 9th in the 2011 WDC, behind only the Red Bull, Mclaren, Ferrari and Mercedes drivers, that's a very impressive achievement for a guy in a midfield car.
As a Force India fan I'd be happy to see Sutil back at the team, Di Resta is the one they need to get rid of.

Not in the last half of the 2009 season
Belgium: Teammate on pole and Sutil P11, Teammate fighting for the win, Sutil overtaking Badoer illegaly but getting away with and finishing 11th
Monza: Blew a chance of pole, crashing into mechanics cost him podium and Liuzzi looked stronger on one stop, still a decent P4 and FL.
Singapore: Car off pace, but silly spin and stupid crash with Heidfeld
Japan: Started P8, but crashing with Kova costing him points, looked like a racing incdent but no video on YT
Brazil: Started P3, but crashed with Trulli at start, more Trulli's fault
Abu Dhabi: Car off pace, Sutil beaten by Liuzzi all weekend.

Not to forget his crash in China, and his role in the Spain carnage and the crash with Kimi in Germany when he was on for decent points.

Important to note, this was his third season of F1.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:35 am 
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Just read a direct quote from sutil's manager that says nothing has been agreed but they are negotiating with FI just like many others and hopefully that FI can decide soon who they want. It may not be from sutil or VJM themselves but can probably be taken more seriously than an unamed source close to the FI team can.


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
As stated am not for Sutil returning, however he finished 9th in his last season with FI. Hulk or Di Resta could not manage that this season when the FI this season has been the same strength as last. Sutil was more consistent than both of them and we all know how high everyone rates the Hulk.

2011 Force India finished 6th, only four points away from 5th place in WCC.

2012 Force India finished 7th, more than 30 points away from 5th.

The car was definitely NOT equally strong in 2012, while it definitely WAS the class of the midfield in 2011.


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:38 pm 
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DaveStebbins wrote:
Jomox wrote:
As stated am not for Sutil returning, however he finished 9th in his last season with FI. Hulk or Di Resta could not manage that this season when the FI this season has been the same strength as last. Sutil was more consistent than both of them and we all know how high everyone rates the Hulk.

2011 Force India finished 6th, only four points away from 5th place in WCC.

2012 Force India finished 7th, more than 30 points away from 5th.

The car was definitely NOT equally strong in 2012, while it definitely WAS the class of the midfield in 2011.


Yes because Sutil was more consistent then both The Hulk and Di Resta this season, that's why it finished higher because of Sutil who did a better job than both Hulk and Di Resta.


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:23 am 
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Well Sutil was pretty awful when partnered with Fisichella. He only started to perform when he was made the team leader. Let's be honest Liuzzi was never that good in F1 and Di Resta was a rookie.
I think many drivers showed more consistency than Sutil over their first 2 seasons than Sutil did backmarker or not. Sutil needed more than 3 seasons to show he was any good. He is just lucky that Mallya gave him so many opportunities.

Edit: interesting that only Mallya seems to wants him and no other team

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:38 am 
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Amon wrote:
Well Sutil was pretty awful when partnered with Fisichella. He only started to perform when he was made the team leader. Let's be honest Liuzzi was never that good in F1 and Di Resta was a rookie.
I think many drivers showed more consistency than Sutil over their first 2 seasons than Sutil did backmarker or not. Sutil needed more than 3 seasons to show he was any good. He is just lucky that Mallya gave him so many opportunities.

Edit: interesting that only Mallya seems to wants him and no other team

This.

FI would be better off giving someone like Bianchi a chance IMO. If it works then they'll have a new star to "sell" to the bigger teams, if it doesn't then there's always another rookie waiting for a chance. But Sutil has had his and he did nothing with any of them, nothing worth another year and nothing worth a better drive either.

But if Sutil does come back and beats Di Resta then Di Resta's career will be over in an F1 sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:42 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
Amon wrote:
Well Sutil was pretty awful when partnered with Fisichella. He only started to perform when he was made the team leader. Let's be honest Liuzzi was never that good in F1 and Di Resta was a rookie.
I think many drivers showed more consistency than Sutil over their first 2 seasons than Sutil did backmarker or not. Sutil needed more than 3 seasons to show he was any good. He is just lucky that Mallya gave him so many opportunities.

Edit: interesting that only Mallya seems to wants him and no other team

This.

FI would be better off giving someone like Bianchi a chance IMO. If it works then they'll have a new star to "sell" to the bigger teams, if it doesn't then there's always another rookie waiting for a chance. But Sutil has had his and he did nothing with any of them, nothing worth another year and nothing worth a better drive either.

But if Sutil does come back and beats Di Resta then Di Resta's career will be over in an F1 sense.


If Force India were better off giving a chance to Bianchi, they would suffer due to Bianchi's inexperience. It would be crucial because the midfield is become tighter than ever.

If Force India are considering Sutil then it's plainly for his experience & rapport with the team. That can make all the difference.

This is where it can hurt Sauber. Gutierrez's inexperience could cost Sauber vital points unless he picks up the pace fast. If Force India get Sutil back, having 2 experienced drivers can help them be ahead of the midfield pack.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:50 am 
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Amon wrote:
Well Sutil was pretty awful when partnered with Fisichella. He only started to perform when he was made the team leader. Let's be honest Liuzzi was never that good in F1 and Di Resta was a rookie.
I think many drivers showed more consistency than Sutil over their first 2 seasons than Sutil did backmarker or not. Sutil needed more than 3 seasons to show he was any good. He is just lucky that Mallya gave him so many opportunities.

Edit: interesting that only Mallya seems to wants him and no other team


Hmm, not really. The FI in its first year was very unreliable and downright slow car. Sutil only managed 7 finishes in whole season. And it was only his second season in F1 having spent previous in awful Spyker. Fisichella was F1 veteran by then.
Since then he has been the best driver for FI and was almost best of the rest kinda driver outside top 4-5 teams managing to finish where his car is suppose to finish most of the times and not lower in the championship.
His pace was not questioned by anyone in F1 when he was driving. All this negative publicity and doubts over his speed started when he actually had question mark over his career due to something that happened outside of F1.
The way things are in F1, there should be no surprise that he has not been linked to any team other than Force India. His best chance is to come back with FI. And as much as I would like to see young guns like Bianchi to enter F1, I wont be sorry to see Sutil back in FI. FI is in good hands and car has improved almost every year. So if he gets to drive good Force India, I would love to watch him race again in that car.
Frankly I would rather have Sutil in F1 than few other drivers who were racing last year.
Bianchi is unknown in F1, Sutil has reputation of being able to get the car home where it belongs if not more. That is crucial for midfield team.


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:56 am 
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DaveStebbins wrote:
Jomox wrote:
As stated am not for Sutil returning, however he finished 9th in his last season with FI. Hulk or Di Resta could not manage that this season when the FI this season has been the same strength as last. Sutil was more consistent than both of them and we all know how high everyone rates the Hulk.

2011 Force India finished 6th, only four points away from 5th place in WCC.

2012 Force India finished 7th, more than 30 points away from 5th.

The car was definitely NOT equally strong in 2012, while it definitely WAS the class of the midfield in 2011.

That is very flawed comparison.
In 2011, Redbull ran away with points. They scored almost 200 points more than what they did this year.
So spread was very narrow from 3rd position onwards in WCC.
This year Force India actually scored 40 points more than 2011 and still finished 1 position down due to more even spread of points. They had better season, but so did everyone else except RedBull and McLaren compared to 2011. And hence this skewed championship picture. The 2012 car was definitely more competitive than 2011 car.


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:18 pm 
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I've had a bit of soft spot Sutil, but I'm on the fence of whether I'd like to see him back.

I'd love to see him tear Di Resta a new aR$£hole, but I think its unlikely.

He is a decent driver but is he any better than Kovaleinen, Kobayashi, Alguersuari? He's touching 30 and has had a year off not doing any form of racing/testing as far as I know? This will surely have cost him a couple of tenths of raw pace which I don't know if he'll be able to get back in a hurry. Just take a look at Kimi who's had an excellent season but I'm not sure his raw pace (particularly over 1-lap) is quite where it used to be. The Hulk took half a season to find his pace and that was even when he'd been driving the car for the past year.

Alguersuari at least has youth on his side despite a year out of racing, while Kobayashi is sharp and still fairly young and these would both be better options IMO.

Bianchi is hard to judge. Force India will know better than any of us, but from my point of view he doesn't seem to have been pulling up any trees and hasn't done anything to suggest he's any better than the other candidates.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:21 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
DaveStebbins wrote:
Jomox wrote:
As stated am not for Sutil returning, however he finished 9th in his last season with FI. Hulk or Di Resta could not manage that this season when the FI this season has been the same strength as last. Sutil was more consistent than both of them and we all know how high everyone rates the Hulk.

2011 Force India finished 6th, only four points away from 5th place in WCC.

2012 Force India finished 7th, more than 30 points away from 5th.

The car was definitely NOT equally strong in 2012, while it definitely WAS the class of the midfield in 2011.

That is very flawed comparison.
In 2011, Redbull ran away with points. They scored almost 200 points more than what they did this year.
So spread was very narrow from 3rd position onwards in WCC.
This year Force India actually scored 40 points more than 2011 and still finished 1 position down due to more even spread of points. They had better season, but so did everyone else except RedBull and McLaren compared to 2011. And hence this skewed championship picture. The 2012 car was definitely more competitive than 2011 car.


If you put it like that in reality it seems they was more competitive this season, so really Sutil did a much better Job then the Hulk, who many on this thread rate very highly, yet call Sutil very average, lovely logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
DaveStebbins wrote:
Jomox wrote:
As stated am not for Sutil returning, however he finished 9th in his last season with FI. Hulk or Di Resta could not manage that this season when the FI this season has been the same strength as last. Sutil was more consistent than both of them and we all know how high everyone rates the Hulk.

2011 Force India finished 6th, only four points away from 5th place in WCC.

2012 Force India finished 7th, more than 30 points away from 5th.

The car was definitely NOT equally strong in 2012, while it definitely WAS the class of the midfield in 2011.

That is very flawed comparison.
In 2011, Redbull ran away with points. They scored almost 200 points more than what they did this year.
So spread was very narrow from 3rd position onwards in WCC.
This year Force India actually scored 40 points more than 2011 and still finished 1 position down due to more even spread of points. They had better season, but so did everyone else except RedBull and McLaren compared to 2011. And hence this skewed championship picture. The 2012 car was definitely more competitive than 2011 car.


If you put it like that in reality it seems they was more competitive this season, so really Sutil did a much better Job then the Hulk, who many on this thread rate very highly, yet call Sutil very average, lovely logic.


When did Sutil start to impress? In his 4th season when he had a better car and a weak teammate. Hulkenberg had 2 so far. If you want Sutil again you can just as well put Heidfeld in the car, same type of driver but older. People always love to say the Force India was slow for 2 and a half season but forget that Sutil was pretty crash and mistake prone too. I wonder why this guy gets so much credit. Hulkenberg fought for a win/podium already with Force India, got pole with a Williams. Perez has also fought for a win in a Sauber. Grosjean made stupid mistakes but already has a few podiums to his name. Maldonado a win in his second season with Williams. Kobayashi also managed to get a podium in a Sauber. So Sutil is great for best finish of 4th in 5 seasons when his car was one of the better ones of the midfield? I keep saying the guy has been lucky Force India stuck with him for so long. Any other team would have dropped him after 2 or 3 seasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Sutil to return?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:31 pm 
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RebellionLola wrote:
he is gonna kick di resta, maldonado ,bottas ,hulkenber m guitterezz 's asses and teach these amateurs how to be fast without crashing every two laps

No.

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