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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:37 pm 
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Nah Alonso didn't go downhill in the last 2 races. He just can't deal with pressure very well at the end of the season. But it is a very good question. When will Alonso start to go downhill? He is probably at his peak now. So he really only has one way to go. I just hope he can stay there for a few more years at least.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:56 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
To my surprise, Alonso was not the quicker driver in a couple of last races at Ferrari. That car was capable of more, like Massa showed.

He lost two titles in last races in three years. He seem to be deeply disturbed, to the point of taking any possible way to turn the things around (thinking about winning on appeal), and avoiding to congratulate Vettel.

Is he spent? Are his good days over? Will he go downwards from here? I take this as a possible thing, because he already went worse than Massa in USA and Brazil which is very strange for a driver of his caliber - or perhaps what used to be.


Massa won't be near him at the start of next season because he's simply not allowed, Alonso is the clear number one and you will see the same stuff next year, Massa having to yield if he does get ahead.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
hungdynasty wrote:
So did you feel that Vettel was going downward before mid season when he won only one race and was behind Webber in standing?

You didn't get my point, or didn't read my post. Vettel has no reason to go downward as he got three championships in a row. He didn't loose two championships like Alonso, his teammate was not called to play second fiddle to him during the season. He wasn't beaten by his teammate in most crucial moment. On top of that, Vettel was quite unlucky with some races, and it was not a constant performance drop, like in Alonso's case, that put him behind Webber in the first place.


I did read your post and I was talking about the timimg before mid season. If you think I didn't get your point, then now I try to do it with your original post step by step

"To my surprise, Alonso was not the quicker driver in a couple of last races at Ferrari. That car was capable of more, like Massa showed."
Then how about Vettel was not the quicker driver in a couple of races before mid season at Red Bull. That car was capable of more, like Webber showed?

"He lost two titles in last races in three years. He seem to be deeply disturbed, to the point of taking any possible way to turn the things around (thinking about winning on appeal), and avoiding to congratulate Vettel."
True Alonso lost two titles in last races in three years and seem to be deeply disturbed, and I can truely understand it. But what evidence shows that it is Alonso' decision to make an appeal to FIA? Info from those medias who would never have a chance to even get close to Ferrari's meeting room to take a spy recording? And Alonso did congratulate Vettel after the race as you know.

"Is he spent? Are his good days over? Will he go downwards from here? I take this as a possible thing, because he already went worse than Massa in USA and Brazil which is very strange for a driver of his caliber - or perhaps what used to be."
Vettel won just one race in the first 10 races this season comparing his 11 wins last season, if I asked you in july that 'Is Vettel's good days over? Will he go downwards from here? He went worse than Webber in Monaco and Silverstone which is very strange for a driver of his caliber - or perhaps what used to be', what would be your answer?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Seriously? Come on the guy's just had the best season of his career and at 31 he's still got a good few years left in him yet. It's up to Ferrari to provide him with a better car for the next few years.

As for his reaction post-Brazil, I think he's always had that petulant streak in him throughout his career, particularly when there's a championship on the line.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:35 pm 
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I remember in late 2004 when someone started a thread entitled "Is Alonso a falling star?"

Purported clairvoyance, particularly taken on the basis of fully 2 races, is a perilous exercise for those engaged therein.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:12 pm 
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There is no question that Fernando Alonso is a very talented racing driver but he does have an Achllies Heel under pressure which he usually manages to hide with that deadpan expression of his. What I suspected before was a little more obvious in the final few races in 2012 - that under pressure Alonso struggles to go all out to get the best result. Unlike some other drivers, he is unlikely to make a mistake per se under pressure but seems to hold back that little bit to avoid making that mistake. That would explain why Massa seemed to be faster than Alonso in the last 2 races - the Brazilian was not under any pressure, unlike his teammate.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:17 pm 
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Well I can't see Alonso having such a good season as 2012...
And this talk about if he could just get a better car, if the car is good, Massa will be more competitive.
Alonso can drive round a cars deficiencies better than anyone, giving the impression its not that bad.
But when the car is good, there are few weak areas to drive around, so the gap to massa will close and Alonso won't walk it as some seem to think.

I bet if you gave Alonso the F10 now, he still wouldn't have many more points than his 2012 total, even in spite of it being a better car.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:56 pm 
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Jomox wrote:

Massa won't be near him at the start of next season because he's simply not allowed...


Please give even one ounce of proof of your statement. You have no damn idea if he is "allowed" or not, just mumbling your biased thoughts as though they are fact... yet again.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Inappropriate post removed.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:01 pm 
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penske,

I wouldn't call the OP a name, but just understand that he is not Alonso's biggest fan. Yet often Lt. has made very good posts on a number of F1 topics.
:)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Blake wrote:
penske,

I wouldn't call the OP a name, but just understand that he is not Alonso's biggest fan. Yet often Lt. has made very good posts on a number of F1 topics.
:)

maybe he has, but this is not one of them for sure.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:20 pm 
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Was Massa actually quicker than Alonso in the US or was that a consequence of Massa actually having to race on track for position whereas Alonso was in a race all on his own?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:59 pm 
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A few below-par performances here and there happens to everybody, I wouldn't write off Alonso.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:14 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Was Massa actually quicker than Alonso in the US or was that a consequence of Massa actually having to race on track for position whereas Alonso was in a race all on his own?


Massa was quicker than him. Genuinely on pace. It was pretty clear. In the race Alonso was in cruise mode once Webber retired really. He had nothing to race for. Hamilton and Vettel were too quick, and he had enough of a buffer to the car behind to wind down the engine and fuel modes probably.

I'd say it's probably Alonso with his tendency to try weird and unusual lines. It usually doesn't disadvantage him as much, but on a new, dusty track, you really want to be following the racing line. Then in Brazil. Massa was fired up like hell to end the season on a high in front of his home crowd.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:07 am 
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Blake wrote:
Jomox wrote:

Massa won't be near him at the start of next season because he's simply not allowed...


Please give even one ounce of proof of your statement. You have no damn idea if he is "allowed" or not, just mumbling your biased thoughts as though they are fact... yet again.

I guess some people never watched Australia 2010 - or erased the memories as they were not useful for proving their pre-established ideas.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:50 am 
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Blake wrote:
penske,

I wouldn't call the OP a name, but just understand that he is not Alonso's biggest fan. Yet often Lt. has made very good posts on a number of F1 topics.
:)

:thumbup: Thanks Blake, appreciate it much!

Mr. Penske has a private mail.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:08 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Robot wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
He seem to be deeply disturbed,


Only to you, for the rest of the world he looked more than positive after losing the title

Looking more than positive? How does he looks when he is negative, then?
Image
Plus, did you really follow him, his twits, his hopes of getting the championship by the stewards decision and finally blaming the fans for all the fuss about it? Anyway, that is not much relevant. The point is, he was the slower driver of the two Ferrari's at the end of season. And that's the fact some just can't get it.


Can you post for us Seb's reaction after the 2009 championship?


Sebastian is a self-admitted poor loser - if that is your unasked question. He hates to lose, just like every single F1 driver on the grid. That is why they continue to strive to win (if not the race, then the position).

Being good at losing isn't a positive trait. Learning to control one's emotions in public is good - but most drivers are going to fail at that from time to time, some more than others. Still, it is cool to see it sometimes because you know that the fire still burns...

As to the OP question, I don't think the evidence offered suggests Alonso has begun a downward spiral. The only basis I can see would be age, but as humans have evolved, peak performance is coming earlier and lasting longer, so I don't think anyone set for the 2013 grid has anything to worry about in that regard.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:39 am 
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Didnt want to start another thread but this may be somewhat related.

Stefano's interview
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20730643

Noteworthy is the bit where he almost rebutts Alonso's claim that he is fighting Newey by saying this to a direct question on whether Alonso was right in saying he was fighting Newey.



QUOTE ~~~~~~~~
Asked whether he shared Alonso's view, expressed at the Indian Grand Prix in October, that he was battling against Red Bull's design leader Adrian Newey as well as Vettel, Domenicali said: "If you look at the situation with Vettel and (team-mate) Mark Webber, Vettel was able to maximise the performance of the Red Bull in a different way. That is a fact.
~~~~~~~~

Not sure about downward spiral but big bosses in Ferrari are beginning to get restless now. He better win a title for Ferrari soon.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:34 am 
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F1yer wrote:
Didnt want to start another thread but this may be somewhat related.

Stefano's interview
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20730643

Noteworthy is the bit where he almost rebutts Alonso's claim that he is fighting Newey by saying this to a direct question on whether Alonso was right in saying he was fighting Newey.



QUOTE ~~~~~~~~
Asked whether he shared Alonso's view, expressed at the Indian Grand Prix in October, that he was battling against Red Bull's design leader Adrian Newey as well as Vettel, Domenicali said: "If you look at the situation with Vettel and (team-mate) Mark Webber, Vettel was able to maximise the performance of the Red Bull in a different way. That is a fact.
~~~~~~~~

Not sure about downward spiral but big bosses in Ferrari are beginning to get restless now. He better win a title for Ferrari soon.


I don't know if that last parts means they are getting restless in general or restless towards Alonso.

Because they have all the reason to be restless, but not with Alonso, I don't think you can ask much more of a driver given the cars they come up with of late. They are constantly starting the season behind other teams and playing catchup for the rest of it, that is no way to win anything. If I were Alonso it would be ME getting restless with the team, not the other way round.

Given past examples I am actually quite surprised he has not let his frustration get the better of him, but how long will that last? If we have a repeat next year I would not be surprised if things turned sour, but I believe it will be more Alonso towards Ferrari than the other way round.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:47 am 
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Lotus38 wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Didnt want to start another thread but this may be somewhat related.

Stefano's interview
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20730643

Noteworthy is the bit where he almost rebutts Alonso's claim that he is fighting Newey by saying this to a direct question on whether Alonso was right in saying he was fighting Newey.



QUOTE ~~~~~~~~
Asked whether he shared Alonso's view, expressed at the Indian Grand Prix in October, that he was battling against Red Bull's design leader Adrian Newey as well as Vettel, Domenicali said: "If you look at the situation with Vettel and (team-mate) Mark Webber, Vettel was able to maximise the performance of the Red Bull in a different way. That is a fact.
~~~~~~~~

Not sure about downward spiral but big bosses in Ferrari are beginning to get restless now. He better win a title for Ferrari soon.


I don't know if that last parts means they are getting restless in general or restless towards Alonso.

Because they have all the reason to be restless, but not with Alonso, I don't think you can ask much more of a driver given the cars they come up with of late. They are constantly starting the season behind other teams and playing catchup for the rest of it, that is no way to win anything. If I were Alonso it would be ME getting restless with the team, not the other way round.

Given past examples I am actually quite surprised he has not let his frustration get the better of him, but how long will that last? If we have a repeat next year I would not be surprised if things turned sour, but I believe it will be more Alonso towards Ferrari than the other way round.


Well its always team towards the driver and not the other way round. Team is the one paying mega bucks. Its not as if Alonso has contracted Ferrari to build a good race car and they are not delivering inspite of pocketing the cheque.

If the same thing happens next year - what do you think a "sour" Alonso would do? retire?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:27 am 
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F1yer wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Didnt want to start another thread but this may be somewhat related.

Stefano's interview
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20730643

Noteworthy is the bit where he almost rebutts Alonso's claim that he is fighting Newey by saying this to a direct question on whether Alonso was right in saying he was fighting Newey.



QUOTE ~~~~~~~~
Asked whether he shared Alonso's view, expressed at the Indian Grand Prix in October, that he was battling against Red Bull's design leader Adrian Newey as well as Vettel, Domenicali said: "If you look at the situation with Vettel and (team-mate) Mark Webber, Vettel was able to maximise the performance of the Red Bull in a different way. That is a fact.
~~~~~~~~

Not sure about downward spiral but big bosses in Ferrari are beginning to get restless now. He better win a title for Ferrari soon.


I don't know if that last parts means they are getting restless in general or restless towards Alonso.

Because they have all the reason to be restless, but not with Alonso, I don't think you can ask much more of a driver given the cars they come up with of late. They are constantly starting the season behind other teams and playing catchup for the rest of it, that is no way to win anything. If I were Alonso it would be ME getting restless with the team, not the other way round.

Given past examples I am actually quite surprised he has not let his frustration get the better of him, but how long will that last? If we have a repeat next year I would not be surprised if things turned sour, but I believe it will be more Alonso towards Ferrari than the other way round.


Well its always team towards the driver and not the other way round. Team is the one paying mega bucks. Its not as if Alonso has contracted Ferrari to build a good race car and they are not delivering inspite of pocketing the cheque.

If the same thing happens next year - what do you think a "sour" Alonso would do? retire?


We have seen in the past Alonso is not one to keep quiet when he is unhappy about something, so for starters he could have a go at the team itself for not delivering which he has not done yet. He's had the odd comment but nothing major by any means. Of course you can only do that if you yourself have given everything you got, but I don't think anyone would believe he has not done so during these last years with the Italian team. He is being more patient than I would have thought possible.

Other than that he may simply look for another team, regardless of him saying he wanted to end his career at Ferrari. I'm sure when he said that he was counting on being at least 3 x WDC. So far it hasn't happened, so who is to say if he will stay true to his word.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:16 am 
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It should be remembered that Ferrari brought a new floor and front wing to Austin, stuck them on Alonso's car, didn't stick them on Massa's car, and it appears to have made the Ferrari worse at a circuit where aero performance is particularly critical (and we all know how outdated their wind tunnel is). Not a very smart thing to do by the team, and perhaps reflective of an excessively panicky approach to that event. So Austin can't really be regarded as a like for like comparison in my view, the cars were running different sorts of spec.

At Interlagos Massa set precisely 11 faster laps than Alonso. The remaining 60 laps were either Alonso's or else negated by the safety car. At one point Alonso lost 13 seconds by staying out on slicks; his error, perhaps, but a common enough one to make, and this is why he emerged behind Massa.

The above points are worth making because there appears to be a view circulating among some that Massa caned Alonso in the final two races and that this "proves" that Alonso just wins because he has a #2 driver that Ferrari like to screw over. Doubtless these sorts of discourse bring comfort to some people, but they're patently false.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:08 am 
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wj_gibson wrote:
At Interlagos Massa set precisely 11 faster laps than Alonso. The remaining 60 laps were either Alonso's or else negated by the safety car.


Wouldn't this be partly attributable to the fact Massa was trying to slow the pack down behind Alonso?
Looking at the lap charts, notable gaps only started to appear when Massa was right behind Alonso.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:10 am 
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wj_gibson wrote:
It should be remembered that Ferrari brought a new floor and front wing to Austin, stuck them on Alonso's car, didn't stick them on Massa's car, and it appears to have made the Ferrari worse at a circuit where aero performance is particularly critical (and we all know how outdated their wind tunnel is). Not a very smart thing to do by the team, and perhaps reflective of an excessively panicky approach to that event. So Austin can't really be regarded as a like for like comparison in my view, the cars were running different sorts of spec.

At Interlagos Massa set precisely 11 faster laps than Alonso. The remaining 60 laps were either Alonso's or else negated by the safety car. At one point Alonso lost 13 seconds by staying out on slicks; his error, perhaps, but a common enough one to make, and this is why he emerged behind Massa.

The above points are worth making because there appears to be a view circulating among some that Massa caned Alonso in the final two races and that this "proves" that Alonso just wins because he has a #2 driver that Ferrari like to screw over. Doubtless these sorts of discourse bring comfort to some people, but they're patently false.

:thumbup: This... & how many times are we going to be shown that split second image of Alonso in his helmet after the race supposedly showing 1) he's a bad loser 2) he looks negative 3) ...... put here any put down of him you can think of. I would prefer to see the whole video, the before & after, before drawing any conclusion. If I had to judge his emotions just on this one image I would say that I see a passionate driver who believes that he has done the best he can but still lost the Championship by only 3 points. I would rather see that in any F1 driver in the same position than someone who was happy regardless of the results &/or could just shrug it off. Neither of these things say WDC material to me. The exception may be Kimi but then he is a totally unique character.


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