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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:20 pm 
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After finishing 9th in the constructors championship, RedBull owner has warned the Faenza based squad to improve their performance. With the appointment of James Key as the designer the team has shown very little improvement. Mateschitz initially bought the Minardi team from Paul Stoddart and along with Gerhard Berger raced under the name Torro Rosso. The current drivers lineup have been retained.
- AUTO MAGAZINE

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Why dont they use RBR's designs too? Is that legal?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:30 pm 
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Ev0lutionz wrote:
Why dont they use RBR's designs too? Is that legal?


No.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:38 pm 
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James keys work wont really show until next years car so we will see then


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Is it a possible fore-warning that he will sell them if they don't improve soon?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:34 pm 
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Gaz wrote:
Is it a possible fore-warning that he will sell them if they don't improve soon?

They've been on the market for a couple of years already.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:47 pm 
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potter84 wrote:
James keys work wont really show until next years car so we will see then


Key joined the team fairly early in the season. I'd hazard a guess that he's had a fair bit of work on next year's car.

And I don't know if it's just me, but I can't help but notice that the drivers and the team always seem optimistic about next year's car - moreso than you usually get.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:53 pm 
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Look at Key's recent history for a reason Toby - 2011 Force India was his, along with the 2012 Sauber. Both cars punching above the weight generally expected of their relative teams.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Gaz wrote:
Is it a possible fore-warning that he will sell them if they don't improve soon?


Who's he going to sell them to? There's not exactly a queue of eager investors waiting out there to snap up F1 teams.

As long as Red Bull feels an urge to have a junior team then they can be right at the back and they'll still be funded.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:52 pm 
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wj_gibson wrote:
Gaz wrote:
Is it a possible fore-warning that he will sell them if they don't improve soon?


Who's he going to sell them to? There's not exactly a queue of eager investors waiting out there to snap up F1 teams.

As long as Red Bull feels an urge to have a junior team then they can be right at the back and they'll still be funded.


Only if one need a tax break would a F1 team make sense. Make it a tax liability, because most teams are a complete profit dud.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:07 pm 
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Would happily see Toro Rosso go bye-bye from F1. Sister teams have no place in this sport.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Would happily see Toro Rosso go bye-bye from F1. Sister teams have no place in this sport.


They were rubbish this year.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:48 pm 
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I'd rather someone take over Torro Rosso. Team orders is one thing, but sister teams is another, and I don't like it.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:24 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
I'd rather someone take over Torro Rosso. Team orders is one thing, but sister teams is another, and I don't like it.


As opposed to what? It isn't like they notably held up any of the top contenders this season. Marussia, de la Rosa and Caterham were equally giving on the whole, as it is pointless to block incessantly before the inevitable pass of a car twice as fast.

Only Narian diced with the top contenders, resulting in pointless incidents with Nico, Seb and Jenson - and a close call with Alonso as well. That is just off the top of my head, there were likely more. It isn't only the impact on the bigger team, like McLaren losing Jenson in the race, but the extreme backmarker teams have quite possibly an even greater need to finish races and beat one another for the potential monetary earnings. So from that standpoint, it doesn't pay to jeopardize the situation with dicey driving against top contenders that will eventually get by anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:32 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
I'd rather someone take over Torro Rosso. Team orders is one thing, but sister teams is another, and I don't like it.


As opposed to what? It isn't like they notably held up any of the top contenders this season. Marussia, de la Rosa and Caterham were equally giving on the whole, as it is pointless to block incessantly before the inevitable pass of a car twice as fast.


But TR going out of the way when racing RBR is another thing. Or refusing to race them regardless of the fact they could (like in Spa for example).


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:37 pm 
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can't Torro Rosso "steal" RBR's designs? :)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:43 pm 
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Won't TR get the 2012 RBR chassis for 2013 ?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:51 am 
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I don't get why Red Bull needs a sister team... just doesn't make any sense.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:29 am 
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beanchimp wrote:
Won't TR get the 2012 RBR chassis for 2013 ?

No, customer chassis' were banned years ago.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Well what does he expect them to do? It's not that they have been backmarkers. They had a good car when Vettel was one of their drivers. Maybe they could loan Adrian Newey 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:50 pm 
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Amon wrote:
Well what does he expect them to do? It's not that they have been backmarkers. They had a good car when Vettel was one of their drivers. Maybe they could loan Adrian Newey 8)

Vettel had an impact for sure, but since customer cars being banned, losing Newey's had the bigger impact.

It depends how serious Red Bull as a company want both teams to succeed. If they're both near the front, STR can be used to take points from rivals, but they won't challenge RBR. That's why companies owning more than one team should be banned too.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:45 pm 
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Tufty wrote:
Look at Key's recent history for a reason Toby - 2011 Force India was his, along with the 2012 Sauber. Both cars punching above the weight generally expected of their relative teams.

I kind of figured Key was the reason for the improvement of form in the Toro Rosso as the season went on. They scored at the very beginning of the season and then were back markers for almost the first two thirds of the rest. As Toby pointed out, Key joined early or around midpoint of the season. I assumed Key implemented some changes which was why they started scoring regularly towards the end of the season. I wouldn't be surprised at all the see them move forward next season, the way Williams and Sauber did this season.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:05 pm 
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DaveStebbins wrote:
Tufty wrote:
Look at Key's recent history for a reason Toby - 2011 Force India was his, along with the 2012 Sauber. Both cars punching above the weight generally expected of their relative teams.

I kind of figured Key was the reason for the improvement of form in the Toro Rosso as the season went on. They scored at the very beginning of the season and then were back markers for almost the first two thirds of the rest. As Toby pointed out, Key joined early or around midpoint of the season. I assumed Key implemented some changes which was why they started scoring regularly towards the end of the season. I wouldn't be surprised at all the see them move forward next season, the way Williams and Sauber did this season.


I think the drivers and the team just started functioning well together. As I've said before, STR stopped all development on their 2012 car after Valencia (Round 8 ).

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:33 pm 
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Why is he concerned?

Its like this with STR. When a new batch of drivers arrive, they improve their second season.

Compare 2006-12.

Almost every other year they have a solid chassis which to compete at a higher level. Yeah, it was not the best season. Still, I was not expecting much from Riccardo or Vergne this season. They will be fine come 2013 because one of them will be gone because Felix De Costa is going to knock some doors down soon... They need to impress in 2013.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:41 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
I'd rather someone take over Torro Rosso. Team orders is one thing, but sister teams is another, and I don't like it.


As opposed to what? It isn't like they notably held up any of the top contenders this season. Marussia, de la Rosa and Caterham were equally giving on the whole, as it is pointless to block incessantly before the inevitable pass of a car twice as fast.

Only Narian diced with the top contenders, resulting in pointless incidents with Nico, Seb and Jenson - and a close call with Alonso as well. That is just off the top of my head, there were likely more. It isn't only the impact on the bigger team, like McLaren losing Jenson in the race, but the extreme backmarker teams have quite possibly an even greater need to finish races and beat one another for the potential monetary earnings. So from that standpoint, it doesn't pay to jeopardize the situation with dicey driving against top contenders that will eventually get by anyway.


I'd rather have a seperate team that actually raced to win. Ask any team on the grid what they exist to do. To win.

What are Torro Rosso's aims? To help Red Bull develop young drivers.

You say they didn't notably hold up top contendors. That's probably true, but compare the instant jumping out of the way if a RB turns up, compared to making a Ferrari or McLaren illegitimately pass them and you'll see the difference. If you want an example, see one of the Torro Rosso's literally driving off the racing line to let Vettel through in Abu Dhabi. It's almost as if there was a blue flag. It was near the start of the race on the short piece of track before the hairpin.

I don't have the same problem with the backmarker teams because they are trying to move up the field, compete and eventually be in a position to win races and for championships. Eventually. Will it happen soon? Probably not, but that's their eventual aim. Is that the same for Torro Rosso? To be in a position to fight for race wins and championships? Nope.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:52 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
I'd rather have a seperate team that actually raced to win. Ask any team on the grid what they exist to do. To win.

What are Torro Rosso's aims? To help Red Bull develop young drivers.


On the other hand, they give young talent a chance to enter F1 without needing bags of money, unlike lots of other teams. Isn't that a positive side of Toro Rosso? I'd think so.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:14 pm 
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mds wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
I'd rather have a seperate team that actually raced to win. Ask any team on the grid what they exist to do. To win.

What are Torro Rosso's aims? To help Red Bull develop young drivers.


On the other hand, they give young talent a chance to enter F1 without needing bags of money, unlike lots of other teams. Isn't that a positive side of Toro Rosso? I'd think so.


Yes it's a positive. Undeniably so. But it's still the principle of them working for Red Bull, and not for themselves which annoy's me. Who are those young drivers going to go to? Red Bull, if they're lucky. Buemi and Alguersari got kicked to the curb last year, Alguersari may get another drive with another team, but I doubt Buemi will.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Well, other teams are free to sign them if they think they're worth it... They have a chance to show themselves, that's always positive. Even if they don't "graduate" to RBR, they're there and they will be noticed.

But I can understand people don't appreciate the inter-team dynamics. I actually don't like it too much either, despite being a Vettel fan. They should be allowed to race, and frankly, I don't think Webber or Vettel really need their help either.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Tufty wrote:
Look at Key's recent history for a reason Toby - 2011 Force India was his, along with the 2012 Sauber. Both cars punching above the weight generally expected of their relative teams.


Key joined Sauber in early 2010, he had no say whatsoever on 2011 Force India car. What he designed though was 2009 car, which was excellent when the guy 'stolen' from McLaren incorporated proper suspension for 2nd half of the season and 2010 car, which was competetive until several teams introduced blown exhaust at European GP and Key was gone since 6 months.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:20 pm 
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aryaputhra wrote:
I don't get why Red Bull needs a sister team... just doesn't make any sense.



It makes perfect sense. When they bought the team, the Red Bull Junior Team (their driver program) had so many drivers rising through the ranks, but only two cars for them all. Minardi was bought for that reason. It was two more seats where they can give their drivers a shot at F1 and hopefully find a star driver (which is only Vettel so far).

Nowadays they don't back as many drivers as they once did. I think at the moment they back 4 drivers not in F1, including Carlos Sainz Jr and this crazy-good Russian kid (Daniil Kyvat), but they still need the team for that reason.

Having a second team for young drivers has worked elsewhere. Citroen did the same thing with their Citroen Junior Team and found Sebastien Ogier, who almost won Rally Finland in just his 2nd attempt at it in a WRC car, and did brilliantly against Sebastien Loeb in 2011.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:42 pm 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
aryaputhra wrote:
I don't get why Red Bull needs a sister team... just doesn't make any sense.



It makes perfect sense. When they bought the team, the Red Bull Junior Team (their driver program) had so many drivers rising through the ranks, but only two cars for them all. Minardi was bought for that reason. It was two more seats where they can give their drivers a shot at F1 and hopefully find a star driver (which is only Vettel so far).

Nowadays they don't back as many drivers as they once did. I think at the moment they back 4 drivers not in F1, including Carlos Sainz Jr and this crazy-good Russian kid (Daniil Kyvat), but they still need the team for that reason.

Having a second team for young drivers has worked elsewhere. Citroen did the same thing with their Citroen Junior Team and found Sebastien Ogier, who almost won Rally Finland in just his 2nd attempt at it in a WRC car, and did brilliantly against Sebastien Loeb in 2011.

Officially, yes I believe it is just four. When you consider other links though, they do have more options. In GP3 Mitch Evans drove for MW Arden, owned by Mark Webber and Christian Horner. Daniel Abt has personal links with VW (who are a Toro Rosso partner), at least has cap sponsorship from Red Bull and also competed in World Series by Renault who also supplies Red Bull with WCC winning engines (I know they also supply Lotus F1 and Abt drove forLotus GP in GP3).

I think Red Bull has realised their Junior programme hasn't worked as well as they'd liked with more than Vettel and are opening up future options in other ways.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:04 am 
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Toby. wrote:
DaveStebbins wrote:
Tufty wrote:
Look at Key's recent history for a reason Toby - 2011 Force India was his, along with the 2012 Sauber. Both cars punching above the weight generally expected of their relative teams.

I kind of figured Key was the reason for the improvement of form in the Toro Rosso as the season went on. They scored at the very beginning of the season and then were back markers for almost the first two thirds of the rest. As Toby pointed out, Key joined early or around midpoint of the season. I assumed Key implemented some changes which was why they started scoring regularly towards the end of the season. I wouldn't be surprised at all the see them move forward next season, the way Williams and Sauber did this season.


I think the drivers and the team just started functioning well together. As I've said before, STR stopped all development on their 2012 car after Valencia (Round 8 ).

Offtopic sorry but there seems to be a Narain Karthikeyan signature under your post.
Has Narain hacked your account ? or....



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