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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:22 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Some are talking like its an impossibility for Rosberg to beat Hamilton, however, in their first year together i fully expect that Rosberg will beat Hamilton. Different constructor's cars all vary massively, and it'll take Hamilton some time to settle in, especially due to the fact its going to be the first time that he'll be driving for a team that isn't McLaren. He will have to learn how to look after the wacky tyres in a whole new car, and maybe even completely alter his driving style entirely to suit the Mercedes car.

No doubt if Rosberg wins there will be a million threads about it and certain people will have an absolute field day but the fact of the matter is this is going to be tough for Hamilton and it isn't ridiculous to image Rosberg outperforming Hamilton for a season.

Once again the bar for Hamilton has been set ridiculously high, first he was supposed to demolish a highly ranked and WDC winning team mate, now he is expected to join Mercedes and beat Rosberg, who is without doubt a solid driver, with ease in his first season in the new car


Looks like you are getting your excuses in nice and early. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:24 pm 
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I fear for Nico next season.

He is a good driver. One of the faster drivers in the sport, particularly over one lap. Very consistent too. Also, he cannot be faulted for what he has achieved in the limited time he has spent in top machinery. My opinion of him went up a little earlier on this season.

However, I just don't see the great potential others see. Even though he got his win, I feel the last two years have damaged him. It's unfair to say that beating Schumacher means nothing, because MS was still capable of competing at a high level. However, if you watch the races back again, you'll see Schumacher was very inconsistent, and was sometimes slow over one lap, especially in 2011. Yet he was very evenly matched with Nico over the last two years. So the Schumacher name shouldn't affect perceptions of Nico too much.

I'm sure that Hamilton, at his best, is an upgrade on Schumacher in every department. He is arguably the fastest driver in F1 both over one lap and a race distance. He can be extremely consistent (see 2012). He is one of the best passers in the sport. He can pull off some amazing drives, like in China 2011 or Silverstone 2008. He's nearly the complete package, basically. I think that if Rosberg struggled to establish a clear advantage over Schumacher, he'll have a tough time getting close to Hamilton.

Also, I struggle to find anything distinctive in Rosberg, something which all the top guys (IMO) have. There's nothing about him that stands out, like Hamilton's passion, or Vettel's mental toughness, or Alonso's ability to score a top result with almost any car.

In a way, I think it is good for Nico that the expectation is so low. Perhaps I'm only speaking for myself here, but Rosberg has absolutely nothing to lose in going against Hamilton and can only enhance his reputation. We all saw how that worked out for Button, though my expectations for Jenson then were much higher than for Nico now.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:31 pm 
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benmc wrote:
I fear for Nico next season.

He is a good driver. One of the faster drivers in the sport, particularly over one lap. Very consistent too. Also, he cannot be faulted for what he has achieved in the limited time he has spent in top machinery. My opinion of him went up a little earlier on this season.

However, I just don't see the great potential others see. Even though he got his win, I feel the last two years have damaged him. It's unfair to say that beating Schumacher means nothing, because MS was still capable of competing at a high level. However, if you watch the races back again, you'll see Schumacher was very inconsistent, and was sometimes slow over one lap, especially in 2011. Yet he was very evenly matched with Nico over the last two years. So the Schumacher name shouldn't affect perceptions of Nico too much.

I'm sure that Hamilton, at his best, is an upgrade on Schumacher in every department. He is arguably the fastest driver in F1 both over one lap and a race distance. He can be extremely consistent (see 2012). He is one of the best passers in the sport. He can pull off some amazing drives, like in China 2011 or Silverstone 2008. He's nearly the complete package, basically. I think that if Rosberg struggled to establish a clear advantage over Schumacher, he'll have a tough time getting close to Hamilton.



I think Hamilton is the best passer around right now. Perhaps Kimi is better at dicing side by side, but in terms of pulling a pass Hamilton is better. DRS perhaps is a slight negative for Hamilton - it makes passing easier for everyone, negating his supreme passing ability.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:53 pm 
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benmc wrote:
I fear for Nico next season.

He is a good driver. One of the faster drivers in the sport, particularly over one lap. Very consistent too. Also, he cannot be faulted for what he has achieved in the limited time he has spent in top machinery. My opinion of him went up a little earlier on this season.

However, I just don't see the great potential others see. Even though he got his win, I feel the last two years have damaged him. It's unfair to say that beating Schumacher means nothing, because MS was still capable of competing at a high level. However, if you watch the races back again, you'll see Schumacher was very inconsistent, and was sometimes slow over one lap, especially in 2011. Yet he was very evenly matched with Nico over the last two years. So the Schumacher name shouldn't affect perceptions of Nico too much.

I'm sure that Hamilton, at his best, is an upgrade on Schumacher in every department. He is arguably the fastest driver in F1 both over one lap and a race distance. He can be extremely consistent (see 2012). He is one of the best passers in the sport. He can pull off some amazing drives, like in China 2011 or Silverstone 2008. He's nearly the complete package, basically. I think that if Rosberg struggled to establish a clear advantage over Schumacher, he'll have a tough time getting close to Hamilton.

Also, I struggle to find anything distinctive in Rosberg, something which all the top guys (IMO) have. There's nothing about him that stands out, like Hamilton's passion, or Vettel's mental toughness, or Alonso's ability to score a top result with almost any car.

In a way, I think it is good for Nico that the expectation is so low. Perhaps I'm only speaking for myself here, but Rosberg has absolutely nothing to lose in going against Hamilton and can only enhance his reputation. We all saw how that worked out for Button, though my expectations for Jenson then were much higher than for Nico now.


Sorry, But no.

I agree that Hamilton is a quality driver and should be an upgrade over a come-from-retirement Schumacher but other than that i disagree severely.

If Rosberg does decline because of his cars getting worse then he doesn't deserve the place he is once he gets a winning car, If Button had done that during the Honda years then he wouldn't have been WDC and wouldn't have deserved to be in the position he is right now. I don't know weather he has declined or not, but i will judge him based on how he does during the next couple of seasons.
Rosberg did completely outclass MSC during 2010 and 2011, MSC had absolutely no response. 2012 MSC was better and could have won (Monaco) if only his errors in the previous race weren't present, he deserved better this year really. But 2010 and 2011 Showed Rosberg clearly on top.


You say there is nothing distinctive about Rosberg, but consider this:
Vettel was never known to be mentally tough till 2012. 2010 was riddled with his mistakes, 2011 he was never challenged (and made an error in Canada).
Alonso was known to be good since 2005 and was lucky enough to get his WDC early, but from the on this fighting spirit and ability to maximize car potential you talk about was also highlighted in 2012. Thinking back you know it was there but at the time it wasn't so clear.
Hamilton was Lucky enough to have a winning car when coming in the sport and thus there was no time when he was questioned except 2011 for his mentality and making too many mistakes.
Button was always consistent and excellent in changeable conditions, and has arguably one of the best racecraft in the field. Yet this was only noticeable once he was in Mclaren, but thinking back to 2003,2006, 2007 (china) and 2004 you can see the clues were there but just not enough people were looking.


Rosberg may be excellent, but he still doesn't have the car to show so, and he didn't really have a bench marking teammate like Lewis to show that against. Who knows Maybe MSC never lost it and Rosberg is just that good!

Off the top of my head i can say Rosberg is an excellent qualifier, Excellent in changeable conditions, intelligent, calm and has decent racecraft.

In terms of driving style i would say he is very similar to Lewis except for his character (smarter than Lewis in the races perhaps).

A lot of people say that the Pressure is on Lewis, and in a way it is but for me it is the opposite: Lewis is a WDC who has matched two previous WDCs so i do know his talent, Nico on the other hand has done nothing of the sort so it is up to him to show what he is made of.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Danny_Boy99 wrote:
Agreed. I also find it quite insulting when Brawn comes out and says they will give Hamilton a winning car and that he will fight for race wins. So, they try harder as soon as Hamilton comes along but not for Nico? I can understand that Lewis is the more popular driver and this team change is huge. But even still, doesn't look like much support is going Nicos way.


Nico cant really complain. Without Merc he wouldnt have a drive. He's not exactly a superstar, he's just slightly above average.

Merc get a WDC on board who realistically has a much higher chance of another WDC than Nico has of his first WDC, so obviously they are going to say anything they can to get their main driver all pumped up and excited to be with, what is in actual fact a rather mediocre team.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:35 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Danny_Boy99 wrote:
Merc get a WDC on board who realistically has a much higher chance of another WDC than Nico has of his first WDC, so obviously they are going to say anything they can to get their main driver all pumped up and excited to be with, what is in actual fact a rather mediocre team.


Well, 2013 should show how "realistic" those chances are. If Hamilton is being realistic, he will be far from "pumped up & excited" for the forthcoming season. He made an error in moving and by now he surely knows it.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:58 pm 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
I don't know weather he has declined or not, but i will judge him based on how he does during the next couple of seasons.

I'm not saying he has declined. Far from it - We never really knew how good he was because he'd never faced a proven team-mate other than Webber, back in his rookie year.
What I'm saying is that MS showed that he was more than competitive in the last two seasons, but he still showed major weaknesses. So because Rosberg failed to convincingly beat him, perhaps he isn't a top driver like some think. As you say, we'll know for sure based on how he compares to Hamilton, but on the evidence I see right now, I fear for him.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Rosberg did completely outclass MSC during 2010 and 2011, MSC had absolutely no response.

Rosberg was ahead of MS by 13 points in 2011. And he was ahead in 7 of the 13 races both finished.
That's hardly 'outclassing' someone. Especially considering all the mistakes MS made that year.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Vettel was never known to be mentally tough till 2012. 2010 was riddled with his mistakes.

Nope.
Vettel made mistakes in 2010, yes.
But he was behind in the WDC going into the last five races. In those last five, he was pretty much perfect. Three wins, a second and a DNF caused by engine failure while leading.
You cannot say that isn't mental toughness. Especially at his age.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Alonso was known to be good since 2005 and was lucky enough to get his WDC early, but from the on this fighting spirit and ability to maximize car potential you talk about was also highlighted in 2012. Thinking back you know it was there but at the time it wasn't so clear.

To me it became pretty clear in 2006. People say 'Well Schumacher would have won it if his car didn't brake in Japan' but that disregards the team error in Hungary and the penalty/engine failure in Italy. He maximised the car potential virtually throughout the entire season, and made no major mistakes. IMO he'll never match what he did that year, though he came damn close this year.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Hamilton was Lucky enough to have a winning car when coming in the sport and thus there was no time when he was questioned except 2011 for his mentality and making too many mistakes.

There's being lucky to walk into the sport with a car capable of winning the WDC.
Then there is beating a double reigning champion in the same car.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Button was always consistent and excellent in changeable conditions, and has arguably one of the best racecraft in the field. Yet this was only noticeable once he was in Mclaren, but thinking back to 2003,2006, 2007 (china) and 2004 you can see the clues were there but just not enough people were looking.

I agree.
But I'm looking for the same good clues with Rosberg and the only one I see is that he managed to win a race despite spending little time in top machinery. Being paired with Barrichello helped Button a lot. Barrichello was Schumacher's benchmark, so any driver who beat Barrichello had to be very good.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Who knows Maybe MSC never lost it and Rosberg is just that good!

This I completely disagree with. Look at Spain, Hungary, Singapore this year. And his numerous misadventures in 2011.
Did Schumacher ever make such mistakes, that often, in his prime? Of course he didn't. So of course Rosberg isn't 'that good'.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
A lot of people say that the Pressure is on Lewis, and in a way it is but for me it is the opposite: Lewis is a WDC who has matched two previous WDCs so i do know his talent, Nico on the other hand has done nothing of the sort so it is up to him to show what he is made of.

This is exactly what I meant when I said Nico has nothing to lose. In a way, Lewis is the most proven driver in the field. If Nico can just be competitive with Lewis, like Button has been, then it's proof that Nico is a top driver, unless Lewis has a really bad season.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:03 pm 
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benmc wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Who knows Maybe MSC never lost it and Rosberg is just that good!

This I completely disagree with. Look at Spain, Hungary, Singapore this year. And his numerous misadventures in 2011.
Did Schumacher ever make such mistakes, that often, in his prime? Of course he didn't. So of course Rosberg isn't 'that good'.


Having trailed his non-WDC team mate for the past couple of years might have put pressure on Michael that he's never experienced before which led to those mistakes.
I'm not saying M.Nader is correct with his speculation but your argument doesn't prove it's not.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Mercedes will go into the season opener with both drivers bearing equal status. By the second race I think they might feel they now have a clear #1 in their stable and somehow I don't see that being Rosberg. we can never know for sure, but I'm going to predict that Hamilton will beat Rosberg. How much so wont be known until it's all said and done. Hopefully for Mercedes they produce a good car capable of winning consistently and their drivers can go toe to toe and the public can have a definitive answer to which one is the best.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:37 pm 
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For the last three years Rosberg has been living in the shadow of the biggest name in Formula One, and has performed very well. He can handle the hype.

I don't buy into some of the pre-formed excuses being generated, especially that Hamilton needs a year to get used to the new car and team. Top tier drivers are expected to perform, regardless of the change, and this is what usually happens. When Button went to McLaren he won in his second race with the new team., When Alonso went to Ferrari he came too close to winning the WDC in his first season driving the red cars. Rookies are given a grace period, top tier experienced drivers are expected to perform from day one, and they do.

Although Hamilton has exceptional car control, is freaking quick, and is one of the best qualifying specialists I have ever seen, it's difficult for me to see where he has leadership and team-building qualities. No doubt the team now has a benchmark for qualifying, a necessary requirement in racing, and they can use Hamilton to gauge their technical progress in that direction. If he can't put the car on the pole, the engineers have no excuse to hide behind.

We shall see in three months.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:09 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
Mercedes will go into the season opener with both drivers bearing equal status. By the second race I think they might feel they now have a clear #1 in their stable.


Looking at that from a team perspective, I don't think Mercedes are in a position to choose 'clear #1' because by implication it would mean sidelining the other. They'll be looking to maximise their points as a team so that they can get closer to the Red Bulls, Ferraris, McLarens and the Lotuses. They will also know that Sauber, Force-India and maybe even Williams will be hot on their heels in 2013. It would be in the team's interest to give as much support as possible to both drivers.

The other thing to remember is that Hamilton has been in a McLaren, unquestionably one of the top teams, all of his 6 seasons in F1 thus far. By contrast, Rosberg has been with by then uncompetitive Williams and Mercedes. I am not one of those claiming that Rosberg will do as well as or beat Hamilton but I think we must wait till they drive similar cars before deciding.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:59 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
For the last three years Rosberg has been living in the shadow of the biggest name in Formula One, and has performed very well. He can handle the hype.

I don't buy into some of the pre-formed excuses being generated, especially that Hamilton needs a year to get used to the new car and team. Top tier drivers are expected to perform, regardless of the change, and this is what usually happens. When Button went to McLaren he won in his second race with the new team., When Alonso went to Ferrari he came too close to winning the WDC in his first season driving the red cars. Rookies are given a grace period, top tier experienced drivers are expected to perform from day one, and they do.

Although Hamilton has exceptional car control, is freaking quick, and is one of the best qualifying specialists I have ever seen, it's difficult for me to see where he has leadership and team-building qualities. No doubt the team now has a benchmark for qualifying, a necessary requirement in racing, and they can use Hamilton to gauge their technical progress in that direction. If he can't put the car on the pole, the engineers have no excuse to hide behind.

We shall see in three months.


Agree with this.

Rosberg has shown he can handle the pressure fine, beating a 7xWDC 3 times in a row is no mean feat considering he was the underdog and under the most pressure anyone could have to do well, but he did not faze him and he pulled out the results. Hamilton won't faze him, plus they are close friends and Merc will let them both go at it with equal status, which Hamilton prefers and Rosberg will try his best to beat him.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:15 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
Rosberg has shown he can handle the pressure fine, beating a 7xWDC 3 times in a row is no mean feat considering he was the underdog and under the most pressure anyone could have to do well, but he did not faze him and he pulled out the results. Hamilton won't faze him, plus they are close friends and Merc will let them both go at it with equal status, which Hamilton prefers and Rosberg will try his best to beat him.


Although I'm not in touch with the German speaking forums and the German press, it must have been unbelievable pressure on Rosberg when he teamed with Schumacher. Yet he held his own.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:17 pm 
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People forget he is part Finn.

when has a Finn ever succumbed to pressure?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:23 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
For the last three years Rosberg has been living in the shadow of the biggest name in Formula One, and has performed very well. He can handle the hype.

I don't buy into some of the pre-formed excuses being generated, especially that Hamilton needs a year to get used to the new car and team. Top tier drivers are expected to perform, regardless of the change, and this is what usually happens. When Button went to McLaren he won in his second race with the new team., When Alonso went to Ferrari he came too close to winning the WDC in his first season driving the red cars. Rookies are given a grace period, top tier experienced drivers are expected to perform from day one, and they do.

Although Hamilton has exceptional car control, is freaking quick, and is one of the best qualifying specialists I have ever seen, it's difficult for me to see where he has leadership and team-building qualities. No doubt the team now has a benchmark for qualifying, a necessary requirement in racing, and they can use Hamilton to gauge their technical progress in that direction. If he can't put the car on the pole, the engineers have no excuse to hide behind.

We shall see in three months.


I agree, but on a little bit of a different notice.

Button and Alonso did settle in quickly with their apparent first wins, while Button drove well in 2010 i would say that driving wise in 2011 he was certainly better and 2012 second half is also better. he just seems more comfortable in the car and capable of producing that little bit of magic needed, in 2010 he was quick enough but to win he needed the changeable conditions in which he strives in in 2012 he won 2 dominant dry races.

Alonso also settled in quickly but i can only wonder had he been there in 2009 he would have performed better and maybe even won the WDC.

I believe in the settling in period for 2 reasons:

1. each team makes their cars in a different way and each car has a different strength to the other, so drivers will need a couple of races to get used on which way in this car is teh fastest.

2. Driver-Team relations develop over time. A driver will need to understand his engineer and vice versa, take for example Button: wouldn't you say it was very likely that the team wouldn't trust his judgement in Australia 2010 and keep on him inters? come 2011 they wouldn't question him in such conditions since they know from 2010 how good he is.

You mention Hamilton as the qualifying benchmark, i think for next year that will be Rosberg who is known to be a solid qualifier. Although i think Hamilton is the fastest qualifier in the business, if he gets the kind of record he holds on Button against Rosberg i would be surprised.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:23 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
the incubus wrote:
Mercedes will go into the season opener with both drivers bearing equal status. By the second race I think they might feel they now have a clear #1 in their stable.


Looking at that from a team perspective, I don't think Mercedes are in a position to choose 'clear #1' because by implication it would mean sidelining the other. They'll be looking to maximise their points as a team so that they can get closer to the Red Bulls, Ferraris, McLarens and the Lotuses. They will also know that Sauber, Force-India and maybe even Williams will be hot on their heels in 2013. It would be in the team's interest to give as much support as possible to both drivers.

The other thing to remember is that Hamilton has been in a McLaren, unquestionably one of the top teams, all of his 6 seasons in F1 thus far. By contrast, Rosberg has been with by then uncompetitive Williams and Mercedes. I am not one of those claiming that Rosberg will do as well as or beat Hamilton but I think we must wait till they drive similar cars before deciding.

Just because a clear #1 emerges doesn't mean the team abandon's #2's efforts. This simply means the team will know which driver offers them the best chance to win and therefore will be more inclined to develop the car throughout the season to play to the strengths of one over the other. Either way, if a #1 driver performs even better with an improved component, then #2 has just as much chance of benefitting. People seem to think that because the team focusses more on refining the car to help #1's campaign even further, they quit on #2, which isn't the case.

C'mon people... there's only but one Ferrari and one Red Bull!!!


JUST KIDDING PEOPLE!!! LOL


Damn you Blinky for reminding me there are still 3 months to go!!! : :-((

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Jomox wrote:
Rosberg has shown he can handle the pressure fine, beating a 7xWDC 3 times in a row is no mean feat considering he was the underdog and under the most pressure anyone could have to do well, but he did not faze him and he pulled out the results. Hamilton won't faze him, plus they are close friends and Merc will let them both go at it with equal status, which Hamilton prefers and Rosberg will try his best to beat him.


Although I'm not in touch with the German speaking forums and the German press, it must have been unbelievable pressure on Rosberg when he teamed with Schumacher. Yet he held his own.


I'm in Germany allot, the media pressure was quite incredible on Rosberg and really a career changer in the way people saw him as a driver (Now people rate him in Germany much higher than before)

2013 will be the next big test to see how good he really is, we know he is good but against the best driver in terms of raw ability in an F1 car, we will find out.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:38 pm 
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benmc wrote:

Rosberg was ahead of MS by 13 points in 2011. And he was ahead in 7 of the 13 races both finished.
That's hardly 'outclassing' someone. Especially considering all the mistakes MS made that year.

You have a point, but still over 3 years MSC never had an edge on him either in the races or qualifying.

benmc wrote:
Nope.
Vettel made mistakes in 2010, yes.
But he was behind in the WDC going into the last five races. In those last five, he was pretty much perfect. Three wins, a second and a DNF caused by engine failure while leading.
You cannot say that isn't mental toughness. Especially at his age.


5 races don't make a season, Alonso was mentally tough in 2012. Vettel wasn't in 2010. also please do recall that the RBR was dominant (but unreliable) back then evident by taking all but 4 poles that year. the tittle was really theirs to lose (a bit similar to Mclaren this year who lost it)



M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Hamilton was Lucky enough to have a winning car when coming in the sport and thus there was no time when he was questioned except 2011 for his mentality and making too many mistakes.

benmc wrote:
There's being lucky to walk into the sport with a car capable of winning the WDC.
Then there is beating a double reigning champion in the same car.


I never said he didn't deserve the drive, just that he was fortunate/earned his way to drive for a top team at the start of his F1 career. that way his skills were there to see unlike others who start at the bottom.


M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Who knows Maybe MSC never lost it and Rosberg is just that good!

benmc wrote:
This I completely disagree with. Look at Spain, Hungary, Singapore this year. And his numerous misadventures in 2011.
Did Schumacher ever make such mistakes, that often, in his prime? Of course he didn't. So of course Rosberg isn't 'that good'.


Well yes, but in ROS defense, MSC was never in front when his mistakes cots him


benmc wrote:
This is exactly what I meant when I said Nico has nothing to lose. In a way, Lewis is the most proven driver in the field. If Nico can just be competitive with Lewis, like Button has been, then it's proof that Nico is a top driver, unless Lewis has a really bad season.


You misunderstood me, if Hamilton beats Rosberg then for me that means Rosberg is not top tier.
If he does beat him then he is top tier ALONG with Hamilton, Lewis is already proven and i don't think i will ever belittle him unless he throws everything away for a "gangsta" lifestyle.

Hamilton has confirmed he deserves top driver status along with Kimi, Alonso, Button and Vettel. he won't fall off that group whatever happens next season(s).


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:43 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
benmc wrote:
I fear for Nico next season.

He is a good driver. One of the faster drivers in the sport, particularly over one lap. Very consistent too. Also, he cannot be faulted for what he has achieved in the limited time he has spent in top machinery. My opinion of him went up a little earlier on this season.

However, I just don't see the great potential others see. Even though he got his win, I feel the last two years have damaged him. It's unfair to say that beating Schumacher means nothing, because MS was still capable of competing at a high level. However, if you watch the races back again, you'll see Schumacher was very inconsistent, and was sometimes slow over one lap, especially in 2011. Yet he was very evenly matched with Nico over the last two years. So the Schumacher name shouldn't affect perceptions of Nico too much.

I'm sure that Hamilton, at his best, is an upgrade on Schumacher in every department. He is arguably the fastest driver in F1 both over one lap and a race distance. He can be extremely consistent (see 2012). He is one of the best passers in the sport. He can pull off some amazing drives, like in China 2011 or Silverstone 2008. He's nearly the complete package, basically. I think that if Rosberg struggled to establish a clear advantage over Schumacher, he'll have a tough time getting close to Hamilton.



I think Hamilton is the best passer around right now. Perhaps Kimi is better at dicing side by side, but in terms of pulling a pass Hamilton is better. DRS perhaps is a slight negative for Hamilton - it makes passing easier for everyone, negating his supreme passing ability.

I don't think he is better at pulling a pass off, rather, he is willing to try regardless of the consequences....he has had a lot of contact due to botched passes...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:06 pm 
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benmc wrote:

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Rosberg did completely outclass MSC during 2010 and 2011, MSC had absolutely no response.

Rosberg was ahead of MS by 13 points in 2011. And he was ahead in 7 of the 13 races both finished.
That's hardly 'outclassing' someone. Especially considering all the mistakes MS made that year.


Nico in 2011 had 2 retirements to Schumi's 5, and additionally Schumi had a puncture in Brazil that dropped him to the back.

Still Nico was only 13 points ahead, about two 7th places (where a typical Merc 2011 finish was). Perhaps Nico was a shade quicker in 2011 than Michael? Either way it was very close, and certainly nothing like 2010 when Nico wiped the floor with Schumi.

In 2010 the finished ahead (when both finished) was 14-3 Nico, in 2011 it was 7-6 Nico, in 2012 it was 7-2 Schumi. That last one sounds a bit unfair on Nico but it doesn't change the point: there is a clear arc of improvement from Schumi, since his comeback.

So yeah I would say Nico floored a rusty Schumi in 2010, but increasingly often the red helmet lead the yellow helmet as time wore on. In early 2010 Schumi was all over the place in the wet, probably due to not doing competitive car racing from 2006 to 2010. In 2011 and 2012 Schumi looked more confident than Nico in pretty much all the wet sessions. So it was clearly coming back gradually, but perhaps not fast enough for this three year program that Schumi had in mind.

If he had never left, I think Schumi would have been able to handle Rosberg. As such I think Hamilton will be able to as well.


benmc wrote:

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Who knows Maybe MSC never lost it and Rosberg is just that good!

This I completely disagree with. Look at Spain, Hungary, Singapore this year. And his numerous misadventures in 2011.
Did Schumacher ever make such mistakes, that often, in his prime? Of course he didn't. So of course Rosberg isn't 'that good'.



My previous remarks kind of answer this. I think there would be more excitement about the battle between Hamilton and Nico if Nico had continued to defeat Michael like he did in 2010, for 2011 and 2012. But that didn't happen at all.

Schumi made two or three mistakes in 2011, I don't recall many mistakes this year, besides losing it under braking after braking on a bump in Singapore (he hadn't heated his brakes enough and this caused all the wheels to lock up). Probably his most embarassing error I've ever seen. Hungary Maldonado went off in front of him on his final lap in Q2 so he had to get out of it. In the race start he switched the engine off wrongly but he had an overheating problem anyway. Hurrying back to the pitlane would have been OK, but he was wrongly given a stop go for speeding in the pits. After the race turned into a normal phase, his race pace was normal, less than 0.1 seconds behind Nico. So all this talk of Michael driving a terrible weekend at Hungary is really quite over-exaggerated, it really simply wasn't their day (or saturday having Maldonado)!

Spain I think was more Bruno braking early following weaving right then immediately left making two moves into the braking zone. Perhaps Michael could have avoided it, but having the DRS open makes it difficult to change direction quickly. Really I don't know what on earth Bruno was thinking there. Why Michael got a penalty (after Webbo, Nico, Michael in 2011 at Singapore didn't) seemed a little bit strange.

But yeah as I said earlier I think Hamilton will be able to handle Rosberg. He will have more incidents than Nico, but I expect him to deliver more poles, front-row starts, and podiums or even race wins (unlikely but the field will be close next year).


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:24 pm 
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The other thing is, he not only beat Schumacher he complected thrashed him over the course of three seasons. Yes Schumacher had the odd good races and glimes of speed and you can make excuses all day for him (And for Rosberg for that matter as he had his fair share of bad lucky) But the simple fact is he comfortable beat Schumacher. This will give Rosberg confidence he can at least be very close to Hamilton, if not beat him.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:36 pm 
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I think anyone using the last three years to assess Nico and even Schuis pace and using that to write them off is a bit mental.

The cars repeatedly had 1 flaw. The rear tyres. Thing is unlike most flaws it's one flaw where driving the car to your absolute limit would have hurt you more than simply driving slower. People at the beginning of the year in the big Pirelli mega thread were complaining of drivers driving to a Delta not racing. Merc was stereotypical of that and because of that, if they were driving to a delta to preserve tyres we never did see their genuine pace.

China and Monaco were probably the best two races to judge MS and NR as there were no tyre issues of course Monaco brings it's own problems there.

In short, can you really asses a drivers pace when for 90+% of the season going fast would have been slower?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
The other thing is, he not only beat Schumacher he complected thrashed him over the course of three seasons. Yes Schumacher had the odd good races and glimes of speed and you can make excuses all day for him (And for Rosberg for that matter as he had his fair share of bad lucky) But the simple fact is he comfortable beat Schumacher. This will give Rosberg confidence he can at least be very close to Hamilton, if not beat him.


Sorry but Rosberg did not thrash Schumacher except in 2010. Do you watch sports?

You can make excuses using mechanical failures of course... because there were a lot of mechanical failures...

When they both finished in 2011-2012 Michael beat Nico more times than Nico beat him. Why don't you go and make some excuses for that...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Quote:
How does Rosberg cope with the Hamilton hype?
Significantly better then many of the posters on this forum, I suspect...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:25 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Jomox wrote:
The other thing is, he not only beat Schumacher he complected thrashed him over the course of three seasons. Yes Schumacher had the odd good races and glimes of speed and you can make excuses all day for him (And for Rosberg for that matter as he had his fair share of bad lucky) But the simple fact is he comfortable beat Schumacher. This will give Rosberg confidence he can at least be very close to Hamilton, if not beat him.


Sorry but Rosberg did not thrash Schumacher except in 2010. Do you watch sports?

You can make excuses using mechanical failures of course... because there were a lot of mechanical failures...

When they both finished in 2011-2012 Michael beat Nico more times than Nico beat him. Why don't you go and make some excuses for that...


I'm not biased so I just call it how it is, Rosberg easily beat Schumacher for the last three seasons. Of course Schumacher in his prime at his team, it would likely of been different but that's ifs and buts.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
People forget he is part Finn.

when has a Finn ever succumbed to pressure?


Does crying in front of the cameras after spinning off count as succumbing to pressure?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:45 pm 
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The same way he handled driving alongside the most successful and well known Formula 1 driver in history. Just fine.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:49 pm 
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another_finger wrote:
Johnston wrote:
People forget he is part Finn.
when has a Finn ever succumbed to pressure?
Does crying in front of the cameras after spinning off count as succumbing to pressure?
Er... was that not because the race engineer stupidly radioed to inform him that one of the mechanics had accidentally let his prize ferrets go..?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:29 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
The other thing is, he not only beat Schumacher he complected thrashed him over the course of three seasons. Yes Schumacher had the odd good races and glimes of speed and you can make excuses all day for him (And for Rosberg for that matter as he had his fair share of bad lucky) But the simple fact is he comfortable beat Schumacher. This will give Rosberg confidence he can at least be very close to Hamilton, if not beat him.

We have also seen a new level of performance from Hamilton this year. If he continues to perform on this level, he will be very hard to beat

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:36 am 
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Eva09 wrote:
Do you watch sports?


Do you like cats?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:46 am 
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Eva09 wrote:
Jomox wrote:
The other thing is, he not only beat Schumacher he complected thrashed him over the course of three seasons. Yes Schumacher had the odd good races and glimes of speed and you can make excuses all day for him (And for Rosberg for that matter as he had his fair share of bad lucky) But the simple fact is he comfortable beat Schumacher. This will give Rosberg confidence he can at least be very close to Hamilton, if not beat him.


Sorry but Rosberg did not thrash Schumacher except in 2010. Do you watch sports?

You can make excuses using mechanical failures of course... because there were a lot of mechanical failures...

When they both finished in 2011-2012 Michael beat Nico more times than Nico beat him. Why don't you go and make some excuses for that...

Exactly. My opinion of Nico went down this year, as Schumi regularly beat him when his (Schumi's) car didn't let him down.

Nico comes across as a v likeable guy, but its hard to think of races where he overtook/defended well. I know the car was pretty bad (except for a few races), but he never seemed to be doing anything 'special'.

IMO he was v lucky this year that Schumi's car let him down so often at the beginning of the year - when Nico gained the enormous points advantage. By the time they had sorted out Schumi's car problems, the car was pretty bad so it was only possible to hope for a few points.

It only goes to show that we all 'remember' different seasons! I 'remember' Schumi out-classing Nico this year (when his car was working), whereas Jomox 'remembers' the opposite.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:01 am 
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XRV750 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
benmc wrote:
I fear for Nico next season.

He is a good driver. One of the faster drivers in the sport, particularly over one lap. Very consistent too. Also, he cannot be faulted for what he has achieved in the limited time he has spent in top machinery. My opinion of him went up a little earlier on this season.

However, I just don't see the great potential others see. Even though he got his win, I feel the last two years have damaged him. It's unfair to say that beating Schumacher means nothing, because MS was still capable of competing at a high level. However, if you watch the races back again, you'll see Schumacher was very inconsistent, and was sometimes slow over one lap, especially in 2011. Yet he was very evenly matched with Nico over the last two years. So the Schumacher name shouldn't affect perceptions of Nico too much.

I'm sure that Hamilton, at his best, is an upgrade on Schumacher in every department. He is arguably the fastest driver in F1 both over one lap and a race distance. He can be extremely consistent (see 2012). He is one of the best passers in the sport. He can pull off some amazing drives, like in China 2011 or Silverstone 2008. He's nearly the complete package, basically. I think that if Rosberg struggled to establish a clear advantage over Schumacher, he'll have a tough time getting close to Hamilton.



I think Hamilton is the best passer around right now. Perhaps Kimi is better at dicing side by side, but in terms of pulling a pass Hamilton is better. DRS perhaps is a slight negative for Hamilton - it makes passing easier for everyone, negating his supreme passing ability.

I don't think he is better at pulling a pass off, rather, he is willing to try regardless of the consequences....he has had a lot of contact due to botched passes...

I agree. Lewis was an extremely aggressive over-taker, and until fairly recently other drivers didn't want to crash, so backed off. But then other drivers got 'fed up' and collisions started occurring. Hence Maldo/RoGro/Kobi all thinking outright aggression 'worked' - but it didn't anymore as few drivers (especially those named)) were prepared to back off.

Massa really brought it to a head (2011) when Lewis made the mistake of saying something along the lines of 'I wouldn't have let someone overtake me that way' (after he had made an aggressive overtake on Massa) - and Massa made damn sure he didn't do it again!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:22 pm 
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LKS1 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Jomox wrote:
The other thing is, he not only beat Schumacher he complected thrashed him over the course of three seasons. Yes Schumacher had the odd good races and glimes of speed and you can make excuses all day for him (And for Rosberg for that matter as he had his fair share of bad lucky) But the simple fact is he comfortable beat Schumacher. This will give Rosberg confidence he can at least be very close to Hamilton, if not beat him.


Sorry but Rosberg did not thrash Schumacher except in 2010. Do you watch sports?

You can make excuses using mechanical failures of course... because there were a lot of mechanical failures...

When they both finished in 2011-2012 Michael beat Nico more times than Nico beat him. Why don't you go and make some excuses for that...

Exactly. My opinion of Nico went down this year, as Schumi regularly beat him when his (Schumi's) car didn't let him down.

Nico comes across as a v likeable guy, but its hard to think of races where he overtook/defended well. I know the car was pretty bad (except for a few races), but he never seemed to be doing anything 'special'.

IMO he was v lucky this year that Schumi's car let him down so often at the beginning of the year - when Nico gained the enormous points advantage. By the time they had sorted out Schumi's car problems, the car was pretty bad so it was only possible to hope for a few points.

It only goes to show that we all 'remember' different seasons! I 'remember' Schumi out-classing Nico this year (when his car was working), whereas Jomox 'remembers' the opposite.


Yeah well I'm not sure how much attention he/she was paying, perhaps he/she is a Vettel supporter or Hamilton supporter and doesn't really follow the lower down teams. I would be hard pressed to write a good description of the Force India battle this year, for instance. In any case the win by Rosberg in China does count for something (imagine if the car had been that good at Spa 8-O ) but I think Schumi did just shade Nico this season on overall speed.

Does this have any bearing on Hamilton and Nico. Not particularly. That will be a whole new battle of it's own. Should be interesting, but let's not get too worked up.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Lewis and nico are good friends aren't they.

I think it will be a good team them two as there won't be no edgyness between them and therefore will both help to build a good car


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:24 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
The same way he handled driving alongside the most successful and well known Formula 1 driver in history. Just fine.


I think my original post/title is maybe ambiguous, it was not about the merits of the drivers but more about Nico's thoughts with regard to the assertions from Hamilton/Merc mgt that Hamilton is expected to come in and 'turn the team around' (paraphrasing), which in my opinion could be viewed as disrespectful to Nico's contributions thus far.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Biffa wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
The same way he handled driving alongside the most successful and well known Formula 1 driver in history. Just fine.


I think my original post/title is maybe ambiguous, it was not about the merits of the drivers but more about Nico's thoughts with regard to the assertions from Hamilton/Merc mgt that Hamilton is expected to come in and 'turn the team around' (paraphrasing), which in my opinion could be viewed as disrespectful to Nico's contributions thus far.

People always said Michael would build the team too. Same thing. Nico's a cool customer - almost to the point of coming off as ambivalent at times - and it probably makes no difference to him.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:41 pm 
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I remember the hype around Hamilton 'destroying' Button when Button joined McLaren but it never really happened, they turned out to be pretty well matched with different strengths & weaknesses.

I believe it will be the same with Rosberg. After the first couple of races once all the hype has died down they will be evenly matched with Hamilton having the edge in qualifying but Rosberg being more consistent on Sundays.

After Schumacher Rosberg must be thinking "Right, who's next? Bring it on!"


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:44 pm 
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growers wrote:
I remember the hype around Hamilton 'destroying' Button when Button joined McLaren but it never really happened, they turned out to be pretty well matched with different strengths & weaknesses.

I believe it will be the same with Rosberg. After the first couple of races once all the hype has died down they will be evenly matched with Hamilton having the edge in qualifying but Rosberg being more consistent on Sundays.

After Schumacher Rosberg must be thinking "Right, who's next? Bring it on!"

Probably one of the few drivers on the grid who would feel comfortable stepping into Mark's boots :P

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:16 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Biffa wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
The same way he handled driving alongside the most successful and well known Formula 1 driver in history. Just fine.


I think my original post/title is maybe ambiguous, it was not about the merits of the drivers but more about Nico's thoughts with regard to the assertions from Hamilton/Merc mgt that Hamilton is expected to come in and 'turn the team around' (paraphrasing), which in my opinion could be viewed as disrespectful to Nico's contributions thus far.

People always said Michael would build the team too. Same thing. Nico's a cool customer - almost to the point of coming off as ambivalent at times - and it probably makes no difference to him.


Yep, I get that (again I'm probably not being clear). I'm not talking about 'people' in general saying LH will turn Merc around, I'm talking specifically about Mercand LH saying he will turn the team around - that's the part that I question.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:19 pm 
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I know what you mean. Merc and Michael said roughly the same things.

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