planetf1.com

Vettel's drives at Abu Dhabi 2010 and Brazil 2012 must be the best two drives, at the last race, to seal the WDC in a crucial manner in the history of F1?

Anyone got any other examples.

For example Schumacher at Japan 2000 was a great drive but it wasn't the last race (penultimate). Same for Button at Brazil 2009.

Hakkinen in 1999 is a good example.

Hakkinen in 1998 or Hill in 1996 didn't exactly seal the title in a crucial way. They cruised to victory while their main rivals were having trouble, and could happily have settled for 2nd anyway.

Vettel has been exceptional under pressure. He rightfully deserves a lot of praise for these two drives. I would also include the drives at Spa and Abu Dhabi this season, he was overtaking at places no one did. In Brazil, he was nursing a badly damaged car and yet managed to finish where he did.

_________________
Sebastian Vettel: "I don't praise myself". I am not Fernando Alonso.

Massa would be a good contender for 2008, having a masterful drive in difficult conditions, but of course he ultimately never won the title.

Jacques?

_________________

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

We've had a number of great drives from title contenders to end the season. They didn't always win, but they were great none the less.

Vettel 2012.
Vettel 2010.
Button 2009.
Massa 2008.
Kimi 2007.
Michael 2006.
Kimi 2003.

_________________
[ Kimi Raikkonen ]
2007 Formula 1 World Drivers Champion

I'd say Vettel's Brazil 2012 wasn't great. Especially at T4, ending Senna's and Perez' races. But he's been immense under pressure nevertheless.

I'd say it was more Senna's fault, but that's for another topic. Despite that incident Vettel shown why he's a three time world champion and handles the pressure just fine, and can overtake fine.

Vettel did so great in those races. No wonder he is a champion, and rightly so. As for T4 at Interlagos, he was not at fault that Senna tried to overtake 3 drivers at once, including him.

_________________
The end is near

Senna 1988, surprised nobody's mentioned it.

Abu Dhabi 2010 race was horrible (because I'm a Webber fan, Seb drove excellently), Brasil 2012 was riddled with mistakes by him and got through by the skin of his teeth, he really tried to lose that one.

Seb really had an average year if you take away the 4 win streak, let's be honest. Fernando had a more consistent year but didn't have the one lap pace to compete.

_________________
[[[[Mark Webber for the WIN in 2013]]]
[[[[Mark Webber for the WEC in 2014 and beyond ]]]

1981(Nelson Piquet win by 1 point)
1983(Nelson Piquet win by 3 points)
1984(Alain Prost lost by .5 points wtheck!?)

_________________
Even the best of drivers crash, stay safe and be responsible!

Damn Piquet, he was the most overrated driver before Vettel came along!

Lucked out to win 2 of his championships (like 2 of Vettel's have involved a lot of luck)

I'm biased against Piquet though, he seemed like an utter prick when paired with Mansell, I sided with Mansell in that debacle, and Mansell was a far better driver.

_________________
[[[[Mark Webber for the WIN in 2013]]]
[[[[Mark Webber for the WEC in 2014 and beyond ]]]

Mathematically, it was a must win race and he did so - and not many drivers win "must win races" regardless of car advantage or disadvantage (Massa in 2008 needed to at minimum get 2nd and got 1st so another good one with the back against the wall). Despite qualifying behind Massa, Kimi's race laps in 2007 did indeed indicate he was the faster driver in the race, and put in the fastest lap for good measure without any errors. I'd say a job well done for a season closer.

I didn't say they were better races than either of Vettel's, but they were great drives at a final race for title contenders nonetheless. I would put Vettel's 2010 and Schumachers 2006 as the peaks of last race driving for title contenders since I've watched F1. But Schumacher's title challenge was indeed over however so no pressure to perform.

_________________
[ Kimi Raikkonen ]
2007 Formula 1 World Drivers Champion

Vettel has a knack of getting very lucky even in situations like Brazil. Had it been a dry race I doubt he'd have made it back to where he did, maybe just clinched the Championship but I highly doubt it. Hell even in Abu Dhabi both in 2010 and 2012 he got more luck than most driver's ever do. I'm not saying he's a crap driver because that blatantly isn't true but the car isn't the primary reason he's done so well in the last few years.

Don't forget we've seen him properly chocolate fudge cake it up in high pressure situations as well.

and getting out-qualified and out-raced by his teammate, not to mention Toro Rosso's and Schumacher letting him through.

Great under pressure? I dunno if his poor engineers would agree..."DO SOMETHING!!!"

_________________
We want heroes, but there are few, mainly it's cars - Pedro De La Rosa

3 cars letting him through doesn't mean the drive was bad.
And how exactly did Webber "outrace" his teammate? I'm very curious for your answer. Vettel was way faster during the whole race.
Are we conviently forgetting Vettel had an extra pitstop to deal with, and an extra slow pitstop, both caused by no fault of his own?

_________________
Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

"riddled with"? I saw one racing incident. The rest of the race was perfect with a storming drive in the rain, no mistakes.

_________________
Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

Brazil 2012 was only really exceptionally good driving because he made a big error at T4 and nearly cost himself the WDC. I must admit though, outwith that mistake he drove supremely well and gave us all his fair share of drama.

Abu Dhabi 2010 wasn't an exciting drive by Vettel, but he most certainly got the job done. The exciting stuff was happening behind while Seb just strolled round the circuit for the win.


To give Seb his due, in both cases he did what was needed and walked away with a WDC.

I think your expectations were a bit unreasonable if you expected him to outrace his teammate with a damaged car. I am not sure why there is focus on Schumacher, Vettel didn't need the place to win. They could have danced a bit, but it isn't like Michael would have taken him out, and would have eventually let him by - so... Besides, it made up for the fact that Vettel's teammate was busy taking points off of him up in 4th.

Yeah no driver feels frustrated at all during a race. Vettel winning this championship has really rustled your jimmies hasn't it?

An overrated triple world champion? I don't quite classify him as overrated when he has managed to win 3 consecutve titles against competition arguably the best in the sport's history.

+1 Precisely. One way of looking at it is that Vettel won his 3 WDC pitted against most former champions than anyone else. 4 of them in 2010 and 2011 and 5 in 2012.
It is amazing how sompe people, in branding the Red Bull as the "fastest car" conveniently forget that it has one of the slowest straight line speeds on the track.

His drives in Abu Dhabi and Brazil were nothing short of brilliant. In Brazil, Vettel-haters repeatedly quote the silly thing about Schumacher letting him pass, forgetting that Vettel would have passed him anyway and would have still won the WDC by a point if he had not done so. Also, Webber letting him through was irrelevant because the Aussie finished in front of his teammate. But the clinching issue is that apart from driving a damaged car, Vettel had to cope with a needless additional pit stop by his team to fit the wrong choice of tyres.

_________________
Vettel / Raikkonen / Button

Not all cry at their engineers expecting them to do it all for them like a spoiled over-privileged child.


Sounds to me more like a reading of your current jimmies status, nomsayin'

_________________
We want heroes, but there are few, mainly it's cars - Pedro De La Rosa

Actually, lots of drivers have dependend on good team strategies or varying strategies when something needed to be done. And rightfully so. The driver drives the car, the team makes decisions based on how a race is playing out.

Vettel was stuck with a car with low top speed, didn't have much overtaking possibilities as a consequence, and rightly asked for the team to act accordingly.

Ofcourse for your ultra-biased view that might be a sign of weakness, while in the real world there is nothing wrong with it.

Also, could you answer my question, how Webber 'outdrove' Vettel in Brazil?
You haven't answered a previous question either, how the safety car was beneficial to Vettel in Brazil.
Is this your MO? Posting incorrect statements and never answer the questions being asked about those statements?

_________________
Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

I think the Brazil 2012 drive is being over-sold as an epic performance by Seb when it really wasn't. He made mistakes in the opening lap, heck even in qualifying, and seemed to try and throw away a WDC. I'm not sure how Bruno's at fault for being on the inside of a corner, with a significant portion of his car alongside Vettel's, which I believe in the rulebook means Seb should've left enough space for both, he didn't. But there was no penalty or investigation for either driver so I'll give Seb the benefit of the doubt and say it was 50/50. Bruno may have been a bit optimistic going in for the first corner, but Seb was being a bit RoGro by going for the apex from half way across the track in the first lap, and shouldn't have been in that position if he'd have qualified better/got a better start. After that it was an OK/good race from him, hardly his best though. Button had a better race to clinch the title in 2009...

If Spa 2012 had been the title finale, Seb's performance would have been A*, because that was the drive of a man fighting for all his worth. Brazil... well he capitalised on his three teammates and Schumi, made a mistake or two on the opening laps, but still had a decent showing. By no means a bad race, but not the mark of a legend, certainly not proof of being good under pressure. He is a good triple champ, as much as it pains me to say, and most definately an all time F1 great purely through numbers if nothing else!

Also, not sure how the safety car was beneficial to Vettel either, I don't think it closed any gaps for him. If anything the rain may have been beneficial as it negated the performance impact on his car from first lap damage, as I think he would have really suffered in the dry.

Just so you know, that is my opinion, you're welcome to disagree

_________________
"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

For me this race was exactly that: proof of the fact he copes with pressure extremely well.

Taking the incident with Senna as a given (it was a racing incident, it happened, it had to be dealth with), there were two possible outcomes: choking or excelling. OK, he was let through by a few cars, but that doesn't negate his pace in the wet was really, really great and he didn't make a single mistake after L1 T4. He drove like he had nothing to lose when he had everything to lose. On top of that, there were lots of things going on/wrong:
- the SC allowed Kobayashi to take a pass on him on a then dry track
- the SC allowed Alonso to be near the top-3 again
- malfunctioning radio
- pit stop, wrong tyres fitted, so lost lots of seconds
- very slow pit stop
Even with all of this, he just coped and was fast and faultless.

It's very true that the rain helped him - on the dry it would probably have been mission impossible. But isn't coping with rain a mark of the greats? Weren't all Alonso fans hoping for rain the week before?
He made up 8 seconds on Alonso and Webber in 7 laps, while passing backmarkers. Even accounting for the fact he was let past by a few cars, that's still a great performance in my book in conditions of which everybody always says the impact of the car diminishes greatly and the driver becomes key.

_________________
Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

Ah yes, forgot about the dodgy radio and pit stop, haha my bad! If it hadn't been for the rain I think he'd of floundered, but you're right, coping with rain is a mark of a great driver. To be fair to Seb he did very well in Brazil, I just don't see it as one of the great drives, I've seen better drives from him where he hasn't made any mistakes. I know the word is overused with Vettel, but he was lucky that the rain negated his damage somewhat, that he had a few cars not hold him up (he would've got past Schu etc anyway, they just saved him a little time and effort I guess) and the safety car did bunch the field up a little bit for him. But, the safety car did the same for everyone else, including Alonso, who failed to capitalise, and had a driver gunning for him as well. Both drivers were lucky given how manic the race was, Vettel just came away with the prize, and Alonso another bridesmaid

All in all, Vettel had both good and bad luck in his corner in Brazil, and I suppose he did handle the pressure a lot better than I would have previously expected (Hungary, post-Valencia, Turkey 10 etc), so I can see your points mds. Everything that could happen good and bad seemed to happen!

I don't count the race as an epic Vettel race... just as an epic race in general.

_________________
"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

This 100% sums up my thoughts, thank you good sir.

I don't really remember Abu Dhabi 2010 but I seem to remember it was pretty simple for Vettel? Ok he clinched the title which makes it a good drive but as far as title deciders go it was pretty simple, I don't remember him overtaking anyone (or indeed anyone overtaking anyone...) and his main rivals jumped out of his way and behind midfield cars.

_________________
Official Kamui Kobayashi Fanboy

Allright, I can respect your view on the matter.

Again, we agree to not completely agree.

_________________
Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

We're too polite

_________________
"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

Senna in 1988 japan (penultimate) and Prost in 1986 Australian gp.
No help from other DRIVERS
No accidents with other drivers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgqNWnE0S0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4tylzrCPDw

_________________

This.

_________________

You don't get any points for your tone of voice.

I try not to have a go at Seb as much as I'd like to, simply because I'll get stereotyped, but I've got to say this.

People keep harping on about the fact that Vettel had two consecutive pit stops at Brazil. If they'd focused on something other than Vettel (hard in a season finale, I know), they'd have seen that his team mate had to do exactly the same thing around the same point of the race. Two pit stops in consecutive laps, for both Vettel and Webber.

Not only that, but discounting the question as to whether it was Sebastian's or Bruno's fault regarding the incident at turn 4, Vettel spun nonetheless. You can cheer him on for coming back from that, but Webber also had a spin, then slide 90 degrees at the final/penultimate corner.. I really don't know if it's the last corner or not.. and he went off at turn 1. The last two probably weren't as impactful as Vettel's spin was, but they happened either way.

Not only that, but when the track was drying out, Vettel was 1-1.5s slower than majority of the front runners, including Mark, per lap. I watched closely to the timing for a few laps just to see if that was actually the case. However when it kept drizzling down, his car damage showed no effects and was able to go as fast as most, if not faster. I will give him his credit, it was a good drive, but not as good as some are making it out to be.

_________________
This is where the party's at.
Webber.Button.Ricciardo.Grosjean.Hulkenberg.Lowndes.Power.Marquez.

Well Webber's were his fault, Vettel's was a racing incident against Senna.

I say racing incident, and it's probably true. But it's not a Tilke track, it's one of those old-fashioned tracks where it's possible to "go off" as Stirling Moss used to say, and Senna was racing fast at a sharp angle down the inside as if it was a Tilke track. Vettel could perhaps have given him more room but I'm inclined to believe given the size of the thud, Senna was going to hit him anyway...

Webber didn't make 2 stops. Not in 2 consecutive laps at least. I'm also guessing neither stop was over 10 seconds long. Webbers spin was him driving on his own and he wasn't facing backwards into a bunch of cars after the spin. I somehow doubt Vettel would have spun if there was no contact so I don't see the point of bringing up Webber spinning.

What difference does it make that he was slower when the track was drying up? Did you not see the damage to the car? Of course he would be slower. He should have been slower in the wet too but he was able to push more than any other driver out there. His car still had damage when it was raining so I don't see how his car showed no effects of it? He still had his engined turned way down to reduce the fire hazard.

I don't see the point in making a post about Mark vs Seb since they were in 2 completely different races. Even Mark would admit he didn't have the best race in Brazil. I didn't even find Sebs drive that good in Brazil but compared to Mark's it was.

@Formula1Fan. You really need to chill about Seb winning the title. I could see it all along how you resented him but since he won you have just been completely nuts about it.

Brasil 2012 Pit Stops:
Webber Lap 9
Webber Lap 19
Webber Lap 55

Vettel Lap 10
Vettel Lap 19
Vettel Lap 52
Vettel Lap 54

At the end of Lap 1 Webber was 11.3 seconds ahead of Vettel. At the end of Lap 6 Vettel reduced it to 3.7 seconds (lapping on average 1.7 seconds a lap faster in rain while overtaking others an with a damaged car).. This is too much of a difference but Vettel is excellent wet weather driver.