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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:15 am 
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Hey guys I'm wondering, why did McLaren selected Montoya instead of Jaques Villeneuve in 2005? Isn't Jaques like a WDC Champ so wouldn't that be the best decision to make at the time?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:19 am 
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'cause Jacque was fairy cakes.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:20 am 
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Don't think so, he out-performed the BAR Honda but I think he was too frustrated and left the team

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:27 am 
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He out performed the BAR? In his last year in the BAR a relative rookie in Button beat him. Remember JV being all mouth about Button.

2004 he did three races in the Renault in which Alonso beat him.

In 2005 in the Sauber he was bettered by Massa .

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:31 am 
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Because Montoya was a better driver by 2004/05. JV had had nearly a year out, McLaren would have been taking a bigger risking taking him over JPM at the time. JPM was considered one of the fastest men in the field, JV was not. JV left his team because his team were fed up of him by the end of 2003, it's well known he and BAR were not seeing eye to eye and the mechanics didn't exactly respect him by the end of his time there. JV would never have settled at McLaren, too corporate for him.

Also Raikkonen would have creamed him in 2005. More than he already did to Montoya but JPM had the injury excuse at least.

Finally just because someone is a WDC doesn't mean they are the best option for any team. Especially when they won that WDC years previously. By 2005 it was 8 years since JV had won a WDC, 8 years since he had won a race. Sadly for him the fact he was a WDC meant nothing by then.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:33 am 
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Because Villeneuve wasn't that good.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:39 am 
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Johnston wrote:
He out performed the BAR? In his last year in the BAR a relative rookie in Button beat him. Remember JV being all mouth about Button.

2004 he did three races in the Renault in which Alonso beat him.

In 2005 in the Sauber he was bettered by Massa .

He wasn't bettered by Felipe Massa, he only beat him by 2 points.

That was his 'last year' of course, but he had more retirements than Jenson Button so that explains it

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:45 am 
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Isn't two points being bettered?

As for button , when both finished. JV was only ahead once.

So again how did JV out perform the BAR?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:54 am 
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Kolby wrote:
Johnston wrote:
He out performed the BAR? In his last year in the BAR a relative rookie in Button beat him. Remember JV being all mouth about Button.

2004 he did three races in the Renault in which Alonso beat him.

In 2005 in the Sauber he was bettered by Massa .

He wasn't bettered by Felipe Massa, he only beat him by 2 points.

That was his 'last year' of course, but he had more retirements than Jenson Button so that explains it

If you are going to throw in things like "he had more DNF's so that explains it" then this argument is going nowhere. JV was beaten by Massa in 2005.

In 2003, in the races where both finished JV only beat Button once. JV was a former WDC and Button had only three season's of experience. JV should have beaten him handily but he didn't. The points total was 17 for Button and only 6 for JV. In 2005, Massa finished ahead of JV 10 times when both finished, JV ahead of Massa only 3 times. Very poor for a former WDC.

Fact is JV was not on the same level as the top of the field by 2003/4/5. JPM was a faster and better driver by 2005 than JV. Anyone with a brain could see that back then.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:54 am 
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I feel for Kolby, his arguments are being beaten more than Jacques was by his teammates :(

Sorry Kolby! But yeah, Jacques became pretty lacklustre after his WDC, it went downhill for him whereas JPM was a much better prospect, given he'd competed for the WDC against Schu the year before in a Williams.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:56 am 
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He did I saw it on youtube, it was in Austria 2002 where he came from 17th to 3rd and then had an engine blow up

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:12 am 
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Villeneuve was already a shadow of his former self by that time. He wasn't Mclaren standard. His driving was erratic and he made a lot of bad mistakes.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:15 am 
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Jacques, is that you?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:26 pm 
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The way I see it was that Jacques, after winning his WDC, decided to go for the money & Williams have never been known for being big payers hence Jacques joining BAR. And, I have to say, after religiously watching Indy Car at the time, I also think that JPM was the better driver &, if Williams had managed him differently, he would have ended up being a WDC as well. He was the first driver not to be imtimidated by Michael Schumacher & often when Michael shoved him he shoved him back which, being a Schumacher fan, tiddled me off at the time but in my eyes it also showed the measure of JPM as a driver :D


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:23 pm 
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JV was good until he was parnered with Button at BAR. He really started to decline there. His last year with BAR (replaced with Sato), races for Renault (stand in for Trulli), Sauber and BMW (replaced by Kubica) were forgettable. His career started on a high becoming WDC in only his second season with a strong Williams car. But he had been dwelling for too long on that WDC salary and opportunity wise. When BMW took over Sauber Mario Theissen did not really want JV but the latter had still a contract with the team. Once the opportunity came (JV injured) he was glad to replace JV with Kubica. For JV a sad way to end his career. He should have retired at the end of 2003 though.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:33 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Kolby wrote:
Johnston wrote:
He out performed the BAR? In his last year in the BAR a relative rookie in Button beat him. Remember JV being all mouth about Button.

2004 he did three races in the Renault in which Alonso beat him.

In 2005 in the Sauber he was bettered by Massa .

He wasn't bettered by Felipe Massa, he only beat him by 2 points.

That was his 'last year' of course, but he had more retirements than Jenson Button so that explains it

If you are going to throw in things like "he had more DNF's so that explains it" then this argument is going nowhere. JV was beaten by Massa in 2005.

In 2003, in the races where both finished JV only beat Button once. JV was a former WDC and Button had only three season's of experience. JV should have beaten him handily but he didn't. The points total was 17 for Button and only 6 for JV. In 2005, Massa finished ahead of JV 10 times when both finished, JV ahead of Massa only 3 times. Very poor for a former WDC.

Fact is JV was not on the same level as the top of the field by 2003/4/5. JPM was a faster and better driver by 2005 than JV. Anyone with a brain could see that back then.


This. Although I would say JV was improving slightly in 2005 and in 2006 he outqualified (I think) Heidfeld in more races than Heidfeld outqualified him.

The year out and then coming back and switching to Michelin tyres seemed to hurt him.

Button was better than Villeneuve but I don't recall him being that much better. It was just a good battle.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:43 pm 
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When Jenson joined BAR , JV was not pleasant to him at all, he said he would dominate him, called a boy band type, and generally made things aukward, JB got on with his job (he had got past his playboy stage) and he beat JV soundly,
JV even took back his insults and said JB had a proper chance of being a future star,
i think a WDC counts ?

JV could be a great driver on his day, but he is a driver that needs many boxes ticked to give his best 8)

As far as Monty goes, he was an exciting and very fast driver, if you can't remember, do a youtube search to remind yourself just how entertaining and competitive he was 8)
Thats why McLaren wanted him.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Seem to remember JV and Monty and a bit of a spat when Montoya made his debut.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
'cause Jacque was fairy cakes.


:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:06 pm 
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The year JPM started, I thought "this guy's immensely fast in a straight line. I should put money on him to win Monza"

I never did :(


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:07 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
He out performed the BAR? In his last year in the BAR a relative rookie in Button beat him. Remember JV being all mouth about Button.

I agree he struggled in 2003, but 1999-2000 he was brilliant for them, 98-2000 were his best years in F1 performance wise IMO only MS and Mika were doing a better job.

Also JPM didn't cope well with the corporate Ron Dennis era at McLaren, so doubt Jacques would more of a racer than PR man!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:10 pm 
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DrG wrote:
The way I see it was that Jacques, after winning his WDC, decided to go for the money & Williams have never been known for being big payers hence Jacques joining BAR.


This is how it turned out. He was good in 97 but after that just wanted money and that's all he cared for, declined rapidly.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:56 pm 
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I never really rated him when he won the WDC

What did happen to JPM ? I can't really remember what happened to him after his stint at Williams or why he quit


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:14 pm 
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Montoya was always destined for Formula One, but his career got sidetracked when Williams (who had JPM under contract) traded JPM away to Ganassi, and got Zanardi in return. So JPM spent two years (1999 and 2000) racing CART, to eventually return to Formula One and Williams in 2001.

But in July of 2003 he and Willaims had a big spat, and although JPM finished the season with them, and the 2004 season, he had committed himself to McLaren.

So McLaren had JPM signed and lined up to race for them since July of 2003, even though he would not be on the team until 2005.

In 2003 Jacques Villeneuve was apporaching the end of his run at BAR, he was disruptive, expensive, and produced less and less. The relationship in BAR became so toxic that they parted company. Jacques just lost that edge he had, and never regained it. He was past due date, and the banana had become rotten.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:45 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Montoya was always destined for Formula One, but his career got sidetracked when Williams (who had JPM under contract) traded JPM away to Ganassi, and got Zanardi in return. So JPM spent two years (1999 and 2000) racing CART, to eventually return to Formula One and Williams in 2001.

But in July of 2003 he and Willaims had a big spat, and although JPM finished the season with them, and the 2004 season, he had committed himself to McLaren.

So McLaren had JPM signed and lined up to race for them since July of 2003, even though he would not be on the team until 2005.

In 2003 Jacques Villeneuve was apporaching the end of his run at BAR, he was disruptive, expensive, and produced less and less. The relationship in BAR became so toxic that they parted company. Jacques just lost that edge he had, and never regained it. He was past due date, and the banana had become rotten.


Thanks for the JPM info, I do remember now, thanks for jogging my memory, I used to watch CART too when it was on TV


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:03 am 
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I seem to remember Villeneuve saying if he couldn't beat Button then he shouldn't be in Formula 1; I guess McLaren agreed.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:37 am 
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jammin78 wrote:
I feel for Kolby, his arguments are being beaten more than Jacques was by his teammates :(

Sorry Kolby! But yeah, Jacques became pretty lacklustre after his WDC, it went downhill for him whereas JPM was a much better prospect, given he'd competed for the WDC against Schu the year before in a Williams.

It didn't went all down hill :X it's just his car kept retiring that could have reduced his skills to bits.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:57 am 
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I was a big JV fan growing up watching him in CART and F1.

Many people give JV a lot of fairy cakes, but he's still a fantastic driver and he's done well as a ringer in NASCAR.

Between 1996-2001... That was JV in his prime. After 2001 things went downhill afterwards because he was not producing nor did he really give a fairy cakes anymore because he wanted to win with BAR when he signed in 1999. Going after money really killed his career and it was short lived, but still a WDC nonetheless because he could have stayed with Williams instead of moving to the new BAR team at the time. All thanks to David Pollack.lol

JPM as Blinky stated was meant for F1, but if he did succumb to pressure or really gave a damn about his fitness, I think he still could have been in F1. That is if he continued his success.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:52 am 
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The question seems a bit random, if anybody were considered instead of Montoya it would've been Heidfeld


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:02 am 
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There was a period during the 90's that whoever drove for Williams was the WDC. Jaques was there during this time.

Its kind of like the Newey cars of today.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:03 am 
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OutKast wrote:
I was a big JV fan growing up watching him in CART and F1.

Many people give JV a lot of fairy cakes, but he's still a fantastic driver and he's done well as a ringer in NASCAR.

have you seen him race in the v8 supercars? Its almost like a comedy routine. Always dead last with stacks of crashes.

Yet when Heidfeld or Salo come over and race they always do really well.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:34 am 
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JV has to be one of the most deluded and overconfident F1 drivers ever. I'd say overrated too, but almost everyone seems to agree that he's crap.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:49 pm 
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infi24r wrote:
There was a period during the 90's that whoever drove for Williams was the WDC. Jaques was there during this time.

Its kind of like the Newey cars of today.


That '97 Williams car wasn't the all conquering car that previous Williams cars had been, it was still the best car but wasn't streets ahead of others. Look at what Frentzen did with it and look at how close MSC was to JV on occasions in straight out races. Let us remember this was a JV who had finished 2nd in his debut season, nearly won his first race in F1 etc, he had as impressive a rookie season as Hamilton, not that anyone remembers these days. This wasn't the fading Villeneuve of the mid 2000s.

Simple fact was that from '96-'01 Villeneuve was one of the best drivers on the grid, top 3/4. In his first three BAR seasons he ragged those awful cars around the place like a madman, even in the hideous '98 Williams car he was sticking it in grid places it didn't belong. He was a victim of bad management and chasing the money, like Ralf Schumacher but much more talented.

Saying this though he wasn't anywhere near the 2005 McLaren drive, he was well past his best and wasn't even on McLaren's radar. His last chance was when Renault was coming back into F1 and they were interested in him leading the team. Villeneuve turned them down for staying at BAR and thus went his chance at a 2nd and 3rd title.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:30 pm 
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Londinium wrote:
infi24r wrote:
There was a period during the 90's that whoever drove for Williams was the WDC. Jaques was there during this time.

Its kind of like the Newey cars of today.


That '97 Williams car wasn't the all conquering car that previous Williams cars had been, it was still the best car but wasn't streets ahead of others. Look at what Frentzen did with it and look at how close MSC was to JV on occasions in straight out races. Let us remember this was a JV who had finished 2nd in his debut season, nearly won his first race in F1 etc, he had as impressive a rookie season as Hamilton, not that anyone remembers these days. This wasn't the fading Villeneuve of the mid 2000s.

Simple fact was that from '96-'01 Villeneuve was one of the best drivers on the grid, top 3/4. In his first three BAR seasons he ragged those awful cars around the place like a madman, even in the hideous '98 Williams car he was sticking it in grid places it didn't belong. He was a victim of bad management and chasing the money, like Ralf Schumacher but much more talented.

Saying this though he wasn't anywhere near the 2005 McLaren drive, he was well past his best and wasn't even on McLaren's radar. His last chance was when Renault was coming back into F1 and they were interested in him leading the team. Villeneuve turned them down for staying at BAR and thus went his chance at a 2nd and 3rd title.

In Qualifying the Williams was often well over half a second faster than the rest of the field. It's drivers just didn't deliver enough on race day. It was the dominant car that was never dominant. It should have obliterated the 97 field, but a woeful JV/HHF combo and an on fire Schumacher in a half decent Ferrari put paid to that. JV had two excellent years in F1, 96 and 2000. The rest were pretty forgettable. He was never a top 3/4 driver though, not when the Mika's, the Schumacher's, the Montoya's and Raikkonen's were performing.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Londinium wrote:
infi24r wrote:
There was a period during the 90's that whoever drove for Williams was the WDC. Jaques was there during this time.

Its kind of like the Newey cars of today.


That '97 Williams car wasn't the all conquering car that previous Williams cars had been, it was still the best car but wasn't streets ahead of others. Look at what Frentzen did with it and look at how close MSC was to JV on occasions in straight out races. Let us remember this was a JV who had finished 2nd in his debut season, nearly won his first race in F1 etc, he had as impressive a rookie season as Hamilton, not that anyone remembers these days. This wasn't the fading Villeneuve of the mid 2000s.

Simple fact was that from '96-'01 Villeneuve was one of the best drivers on the grid, top 3/4. In his first three BAR seasons he ragged those awful cars around the place like a madman, even in the hideous '98 Williams car he was sticking it in grid places it didn't belong. He was a victim of bad management and chasing the money, like Ralf Schumacher but much more talented.

Saying this though he wasn't anywhere near the 2005 McLaren drive, he was well past his best and wasn't even on McLaren's radar. His last chance was when Renault was coming back into F1 and they were interested in him leading the team. Villeneuve turned them down for staying at BAR and thus went his chance at a 2nd and 3rd title.

In Qualifying the Williams was often well over half a second faster than the rest of the field. It's drivers just didn't deliver enough on race day. It was the dominant car that was never dominant. It should have obliterated the 97 field, but a woeful JV/HHF combo and an on fire Schumacher in a half decent Ferrari put paid to that. JV had two excellent years in F1, 96 and 2000. The rest were pretty forgettable. He was never a top 3/4 driver though, not when the Mika's, the Schumacher's, the Montoya's and Raikkonen's were performing.


Not so sure about that. 1996 was a great season, but I think 97 was solid, 98 he did well in a Williams that was ho hum, 1999 and 2000 were Jacques at his best IMO.

I think people remember his qualifying sessions at Imola, Spain, and I want to say Nurburging in 1999. The car showed some decent pace and JV rung everything out of it, but the car always let him down. He was running 3rd and the car gave up. Imola he qualified 5th place in that BAR chassis. That was so damn impressive because the packaging of the car was terrible, handling horrid, and an underpowered engine that was outdated.

After 2002 I want to say he gave up. He always tried to push machinery and he did well, but at the same token it was his downfall because he would not have to experience it if he stayed at Williams. You cannot take away the man did not try in anything he drove. He gave more effort than anyone else I have seen in my brief life.

Just watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7a9yRetyp0

You cannot tell me and I mean anyone here that you would be tiddled off about pushing so damn hard and the engine giving up? Man, I bet that had to be irritating. We give the man a lot of fairy cakes, but he tried to give his all. It was just not enough in the end though.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:22 am 
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infi24r wrote:
have you seen v8 supercars? Its almost like a comedy routine. Always stacks of crashes.
Fixed :-P

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:52 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Londinium wrote:
infi24r wrote:
There was a period during the 90's that whoever drove for Williams was the WDC. Jaques was there during this time.

Its kind of like the Newey cars of today.


That '97 Williams car wasn't the all conquering car that previous Williams cars had been, it was still the best car but wasn't streets ahead of others. Look at what Frentzen did with it and look at how close MSC was to JV on occasions in straight out races. Let us remember this was a JV who had finished 2nd in his debut season, nearly won his first race in F1 etc, he had as impressive a rookie season as Hamilton, not that anyone remembers these days. This wasn't the fading Villeneuve of the mid 2000s.

Simple fact was that from '96-'01 Villeneuve was one of the best drivers on the grid, top 3/4. In his first three BAR seasons he ragged those awful cars around the place like a madman, even in the hideous '98 Williams car he was sticking it in grid places it didn't belong. He was a victim of bad management and chasing the money, like Ralf Schumacher but much more talented.

Saying this though he wasn't anywhere near the 2005 McLaren drive, he was well past his best and wasn't even on McLaren's radar. His last chance was when Renault was coming back into F1 and they were interested in him leading the team. Villeneuve turned them down for staying at BAR and thus went his chance at a 2nd and 3rd title.

In Qualifying the Williams was often well over half a second faster than the rest of the field. It's drivers just didn't deliver enough on race day. It was the dominant car that was never dominant. It should have obliterated the 97 field, but a woeful JV/HHF combo and an on fire Schumacher in a half decent Ferrari put paid to that. JV had two excellent years in F1, 96 and 2000. The rest were pretty forgettable. He was never a top 3/4 driver though, not when the Mika's, the Schumacher's, the Montoya's and Raikkonen's were performing.


His 2001 season was arguably more impressive than his 2000 season, he never finished outside of the top 10 and managed to stick a BAR on two podiums back in the day when BARs were still very much a non entity.His best years in F1 were '96, '00, and '01. '97 was solid and '98 and '99 were also good where he was putting awful machinery into great positions. Montoya and Raikonnen were in their peak well beyond these years and thus aren't relevant to whether Villeneuve was in the top 3/4 in the second half of the 90s.

In the '96-'01 period the only better drivers than Jacques were Hakkinen and Schumacher, possibly Hill on his day but I think Hill/JV were very evenly matched as shown by their '96 season at Williams.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:40 pm
Posts: 199
Location: USA
This wildfire is easier to manage than that other wildfire..............


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