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Vettel a great?
yes 53%  53%  [ 65 ]
no 47%  47%  [ 57 ]
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 Post subject: Vettel not a great yet
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Former F1 champion Sir Jackie Stewart does not believe Sebastian Vettel can yet be called one of the greats, even if he wins a third straight title.

The Red Bull driver won his fourth race of 2012 in Korea last weekend to take the lead in the drivers' standings.

“Vettel completely dominated the Korean Grand Prix and drove in such a mature fashion for a 25-year-old”

But Stewart told BBC Sport: "If you've got a superior car, it's relatively easy to win the championship.

"To really show you're one of the greatest, you have to deliver when you haven't got the best machinery."

The three-time world champion added: "I have the highest respect for Sebastian, but he could not have achieved what he has without the [Red Bull design chief] Adrian Newey factor."


Vettel won his maiden F1 title in 2010 in what was only his third full season in Formula 1. The German defended that championship in dominant fashion last season, winning 11 of the 19 races.

This season Red Bull initially struggled for pace and reliability and up until the 14th grand prix Vettel had won just one race - round four in Bahrain - to trail championship leader Fernando Alonso of Ferrari by 39 points.

But Red Bull then improved their car and the 25-year-old has since become unbeatable, winning in Singapore, Japan and Korea to take a six point lead from Alonso with four races to go.

"I'm a big Sebastian Vettel fan," added Stewart. "He completely dominated the Korean Grand Prix and drove in such a mature fashion for a 25-year-old. It was more than impressive.

"Vettel has established himself as the favourite and Alonso is now on the back foot.

"Led by Adrian Newey, Red Bull have bounced back from a slow start to the season and have now come up with superior equipment."

ouch. What do you think?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:52 pm 
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I don't even like the guy, but he's a consecutive triple world champion with many records to his name and his current stats are...

6th most wins in F1
3rd most poles in F1

He's climbing up the ranks rather fast, and he's only been in the sport a short time. Next year he will likely be in the top 5 of most wins, he's only 1 win behind Sir Jackie himself... so yeah, Jackie can eat those words. Like I said, I don't even like Vettel, but statistically, he's one of the greats, and his talent is abundant, with or without the rocketship.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:52 pm 
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Think it was debated last month and will dig up a similar reaction to it did then.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:10 pm 
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He's a great driver, no doubt, but it is too soon to say he's an all-time great. He's been in the sport for six full seasons and has had one of the best cars for four of them. If he can perform how he has so-far for the next 5 years, then he may well be considered one of the greats - but you don't want to call it too soon. We may see him really struggle in a few years for one reason or another. You don't have to get worked up that 'your' driver isn't considered one of the greatest of all time - that he's one of the best on the grid right now is an impressive feat.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Another stupid F1-alumnus then


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:19 pm 
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I think he's well on his way to being a great, not yet though. He's hasn't been around for that long and he's got a lot of years in F1 ahead of him, he improves every season wether the car is dominant or not so if he keeps that up, I see no reason why he wouldn't be one of the very best of all time.

That being said, I wouldn't even consider Alonso a great yet either.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:33 pm 
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He's the youngest triple World Champion in F1 history. One of only nine drivers to have won 3 or more WDC. 7th in wins; 3rd in poles; 15th in podiums. He's at an age where he could easily race for another ten seasons, and therefore wouldn't even be halfway through his F1 career right now. What he has achieved at this stage in his career is unprecedented, which I think is part of the reason it's difficult to start putting him up alongside Schumacher, Prost, Fangio, Senna, etc. I have absolutely no doubt that when he hangs up his helmet, he's going to be remembered as one of the greatest. But right now, it just seems strange to talk about that when he still has so much of his career ahead of him.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:41 pm 
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Even if he achieves nothing else in his career from here on out, once he retires, he will rightfully be regarded as a great. He's driven spectacularly in a good car, against a highly capable team mate for all 3 seasons and is the youngest F1 triple champion.

In any case, it is a bit silly to consider if he is a great when he isn't even midway through his F1 career. He is so young and has so much potential to achieve even more. Once he retires, I have no doubt in my mind that he will be considered a great.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:22 pm 
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I'm too excited to see what happens next to worry about labeling what's already happened.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:29 pm 
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'Great' in F1 is difficult to define in comparative terms for drivers in different eras. Fangio, acknowledged as a great driver, drove under totally different conditions, set of rules and quality of opposition in the 1950s compared with Vettel some 60 years later. It is impossible to guess how one driver would have performed in a car of a bygone era and vice versa. In fact, it is not even easy to predict how a driver performs with a car of a contemporary team. Therefore, one has to go by the results achieved by a given driver over time to label him great or otherwise.

By that yardstick, Vettel is well on his way to becoming a great driver.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:30 pm 
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Triple World Champion.

That makes him a great of this fine sport. Undeniably in my opinion. I don't see how anyone can deny him that.

Sure, he's only won in Newey cars. Sure, he's only won in RBR. Sure, he's had what is probably the best car in 2010, 2011 and 2012 (2012 might come down on the McLaren side actually). But Schumi often had the best car when he won. Damon had the best car when he won. Senna and Prost usually were in some of the best cars. Mansell only won when he had a car that was sickeningly good compared to the rest of the field. I don't think that belittles any of the accomplishments of the above. Are they supposed to try and find weaker cars just to prove themselves? You go out to win, and win is what they did, and what Vettel has done in the last 3 years. A good car and some good luck don't go amiss, but you cannot deny them.


But that is just my take on it.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:37 pm 
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This is such a subjective question that it's almost impossible to answer. Sure Vettel is a great driver, but being a great in my mind at least is a historical title. By that I mean F1 drivers are usually looked at as legends, or greats, some years after the conclusion of their careers.

Being a great is surely also something that considers more than just the number of titles won, or a collection of stats. I think the impact a driver has on the sport, their personality and actions also need to be considered. There are probably quite a few drivers who may be considered greats who have won a single WDC or even none, such as Stirling Moss, but who would say he is not an F1 legend?

Ultimately in the highly corporate world of modern F1 it's a lot harder for drivers to really stand out from each other, so maybe the stats will be the main indication in future, but I hope not.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:37 pm 
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mac_d wrote:
Triple World Champion.

That makes him a great of this fine sport. Undeniably in my opinion. I don't see how anyone can deny him that.

Sure, he's only won in Newey cars. Sure, he's only won in RBR. Sure, he's had what is probably the best car in 2010, 2011 and 2012 (2012 might come down on the McLaren side actually). But Schumi often had the best car when he won. Damon had the best car when he won. Senna and Prost usually were in some of the best cars. Mansell only won when he had a car that was sickeningly good compared to the rest of the field. I don't think that belittles any of the accomplishments of the above. Are they supposed to try and find weaker cars just to prove themselves? You go out to win, and win is what they did, and what Vettel has done in the last 3 years. A good car and some good luck don't go amiss, but you cannot deny them.

But that is just my take on it.


:thumbup: You and me, we agree, don't you see?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:38 pm 
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IIRC didn't Stewart have the best car each year he won the World Title? I could be mistaken but I think he did.

Also, this Newey factor didn't do Raikkonen any good. At first, it didn't do Red Bull any good, either. Newey's presence doesn't guarantee success. It never has. Funny how Newey got virtually no blame when the cars failed but all the credit when the cars succeeded. People weren't even talking much about Newey before 2009 but now he's the only reason Vettel wins? That's bullshit.


As for Vettel, it feels weird calling him an all-time great because he's so young. I think he's a great driver but I'm still on the fence about calling him an all-time great.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:41 pm 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
IIRC didn't Stewart have the best car each year he won the World Title? I could be mistaken but I think he did.

Also, this Newey factor didn't do Raikkonen any good. At first, it didn't do Red Bull any good, either. Newey's presence doesn't guarantee success. It never has. Funny how Newey got virtually no blame when the cars failed but all the credit when the cars succeeded. People weren't even talking much about Newey before 2009 but now he's the only reason Vettel wins? That's bullshit.


As for Vettel, it feels weird calling him an all-time great because he's so young. I think he's a great driver but I'm still on the fence about calling him an all-time great.

:thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:43 pm 
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mac_d wrote:
Triple World Champion.

That makes him a great of this fine sport. Undeniably in my opinion. I don't see how anyone can deny him that.

Sure, he's only won in Newey cars. Sure, he's only won in RBR. Sure, he's had what is probably the best car in 2010, 2011 and 2012 (2012 might come down on the McLaren side actually). But Schumi often had the best car when he won. Damon had the best car when he won. Senna and Prost usually were in some of the best cars. Mansell only won when he had a car that was sickeningly good compared to the rest of the field. I don't think that belittles any of the accomplishments of the above. Are they supposed to try and find weaker cars just to prove themselves? You go out to win, and win is what they did, and what Vettel has done in the last 3 years. A good car and some good luck don't go amiss, but you cannot deny them.


But that is just my take on it.


It's funny, people think that the cars drive themselves for some reason......

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:45 pm 
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SchumieRules wrote:
mac_d wrote:
Triple World Champion.

That makes him a great of this fine sport. Undeniably in my opinion. I don't see how anyone can deny him that.

Sure, he's only won in Newey cars. Sure, he's only won in RBR. Sure, he's had what is probably the best car in 2010, 2011 and 2012 (2012 might come down on the McLaren side actually). But Schumi often had the best car when he won. Damon had the best car when he won. Senna and Prost usually were in some of the best cars. Mansell only won when he had a car that was sickeningly good compared to the rest of the field. I don't think that belittles any of the accomplishments of the above. Are they supposed to try and find weaker cars just to prove themselves? You go out to win, and win is what they did, and what Vettel has done in the last 3 years. A good car and some good luck don't go amiss, but you cannot deny them.


But that is just my take on it.


It's funny, people think that the cars drive themselves for some reason......

You mean they don't? I thought Vettel just sat there and practiced the finger point while Newey's rocketship went on it's own...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:46 pm 
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SchumieRules wrote:
mac_d wrote:
Triple World Champion.

That makes him a great of this fine sport. Undeniably in my opinion. I don't see how anyone can deny him that.

Sure, he's only won in Newey cars. Sure, he's only won in RBR. Sure, he's had what is probably the best car in 2010, 2011 and 2012 (2012 might come down on the McLaren side actually). But Schumi often had the best car when he won. Damon had the best car when he won. Senna and Prost usually were in some of the best cars. Mansell only won when he had a car that was sickeningly good compared to the rest of the field. I don't think that belittles any of the accomplishments of the above. Are they supposed to try and find weaker cars just to prove themselves? You go out to win, and win is what they did, and what Vettel has done in the last 3 years. A good car and some good luck don't go amiss, but you cannot deny them.


But that is just my take on it.


It's funny, people think that the cars drive themselves for some reason......


Only when it's a driver and team that beats their favorite driver and team, I'm sure.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:48 pm 
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Quote:
Also, this Newey factor didn't do Raikkonen any good. At first, it didn't do Red Bull any good, either. Newey's presence doesn't guarantee success. It never has. Funny how Newey got virtually no blame when the cars failed but all the credit when the cars succeeded. People weren't even talking much about Newey before 2009 but now he's the only reason Vettel wins? That's bullshit.
Good point. In 2008 the Newey designed RB4 was quite poor and steadily slipped down the table until Vettel's win at Monza in a Torro Rosso but the junior team ahead of Red Bull. Newey's success with RBR really took off only after Vettel joined them in 2009.

Quote:
As for Vettel, it feels weird calling him an all-time great because he's so young. I think he's a great driver but I'm still on the fence about calling him an all-time great.

Agreed. Such terms are best reserved for drivers who have completed their careers.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:57 pm 
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Maybe Sir Jackie Steward believe if Vettel win 10 WDC with superior car he is still not a great driver, just because the car is dominant.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:00 pm 
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True Snake and Jammin. This is something that always irked me, people don't get it. It is the best combo that wins. Even if the car is miles ahead than the opposition, there's one more driver in the same car. So it's not that they can just cruise into victory, they have at least one guy to beat that is potentially as fast as they are. They have to beat them first and this means they are a better combo. Now Vettel came from behind in 2010, won by a mile in 2011 and this year he came from behind again. He has done his part to take these 3 crowns.

I have two concerns though. Firstly what Snake mentioned, his age. It is still too early. However, even if he stopped racing tomorrow, I'd still consider him as one of the greats. The strength of the opposition he faced when winning the WDC's confirms that much at least. Also, the maturity he showed at crucial points, when others would have chocked, makes a case against the young of his age.

The final thing is that he still makes mistakes. Maybe too many silly mistakes. Then again who doesn't? All great champions have made mistakes, well after their rookie years. It still concerns me a bit, but I've learned to appreciate the drivers with their pro's and con's. And he definitely has way more pro's than con's.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:09 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
mac_d wrote:
Triple World Champion.

That makes him a great of this fine sport. Undeniably in my opinion. I don't see how anyone can deny him that.

Sure, he's only won in Newey cars. Sure, he's only won in RBR. Sure, he's had what is probably the best car in 2010, 2011 and 2012 (2012 might come down on the McLaren side actually). But Schumi often had the best car when he won. Damon had the best car when he won. Senna and Prost usually were in some of the best cars. Mansell only won when he had a car that was sickeningly good compared to the rest of the field. I don't think that belittles any of the accomplishments of the above. Are they supposed to try and find weaker cars just to prove themselves? You go out to win, and win is what they did, and what Vettel has done in the last 3 years. A good car and some good luck don't go amiss, but you cannot deny them.


But that is just my take on it.


It's funny, people think that the cars drive themselves for some reason......

You mean they don't? I thought Vettel just sat there and practiced the finger point while Newey's rocketship went on it's own...

Adrian actually drives the car himself, remotely, via that pen he's always fiddling with on the pit wall.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:10 pm 
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robins13 wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
IIRC didn't Stewart have the best car each year he won the World Title? I could be mistaken but I think he did.

Also, this Newey factor didn't do Raikkonen any good. At first, it didn't do Red Bull any good, either. Newey's presence doesn't guarantee success. It never has. Funny how Newey got virtually no blame when the cars failed but all the credit when the cars succeeded. People weren't even talking much about Newey before 2009 but now he's the only reason Vettel wins? That's bullshit.


As for Vettel, it feels weird calling him an all-time great because he's so young. I think he's a great driver but I'm still on the fence about calling him an all-time great.

:thumbup: :thumbup:



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:10 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
mac_d wrote:
Triple World Champion.

That makes him a great of this fine sport. Undeniably in my opinion. I don't see how anyone can deny him that.

Sure, he's only won in Newey cars. Sure, he's only won in RBR. Sure, he's had what is probably the best car in 2010, 2011 and 2012 (2012 might come down on the McLaren side actually). But Schumi often had the best car when he won. Damon had the best car when he won. Senna and Prost usually were in some of the best cars. Mansell only won when he had a car that was sickeningly good compared to the rest of the field. I don't think that belittles any of the accomplishments of the above. Are they supposed to try and find weaker cars just to prove themselves? You go out to win, and win is what they did, and what Vettel has done in the last 3 years. A good car and some good luck don't go amiss, but you cannot deny them.


But that is just my take on it.


It's funny, people think that the cars drive themselves for some reason......

You mean they don't? I thought Vettel just sat there and practiced the finger point while Newey's rocketship went on it's own...

Adrian actually drives the car himself, remotely, via that pen he's always fiddling with on the pit wall.

So that's what the pen's for!!!! I've always wondered! Thank you Ashley!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:24 pm 
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If he is not great because of the dominant car, that makes Webber to look worse than Karthikeyan. 'Cause Webber is driving the very same car all these years by which Vettel made his name so great.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Of course he is already a great, he has won three consecutive world championships, knocked up an impressive number of wins and poles, won 11 races in a single season, beaten a well regarded driver (who Rosberg said was faster than Schumacher) four seasons in a row.

He is already a great, it doesn't matter whether he was in the best car or not - Schumacher was arguably in the best car for at least 5 of his championships and we're not doubting his talent.

Of course, just because Vettel is already a great does not mean he is the greatest driver of his generation - that is an argument that can never be won, but whether he is better than Hamilton and Alonso (or any other names people want to throw into the discussion) or not does not alter the fact that he is already a great.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
If he is not great because of the dominant car, that makes Webber to look worse than Karthikeyan. 'Cause Webber is driving the very same car all these years by which Vettel made his name so great.

Quite right.
Although I did vote "no" because (like someone has mentioned) it's still too early to consider him as one of the all time greats alongside Fangio, Clark, Senna, Schumacher, etc, I don't agree if he can't be considered great just because he won with one of the top cars and "a monkey can surely do so". And where's the law that what Stewart says must be reckoned as the truth hence a proof of Vettel's not a great?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:34 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
mac_d wrote:
Triple World Champion.

That makes him a great of this fine sport. Undeniably in my opinion. I don't see how anyone can deny him that.

Sure, he's only won in Newey cars. Sure, he's only won in RBR. Sure, he's had what is probably the best car in 2010, 2011 and 2012 (2012 might come down on the McLaren side actually). But Schumi often had the best car when he won. Damon had the best car when he won. Senna and Prost usually were in some of the best cars. Mansell only won when he had a car that was sickeningly good compared to the rest of the field. I don't think that belittles any of the accomplishments of the above. Are they supposed to try and find weaker cars just to prove themselves? You go out to win, and win is what they did, and what Vettel has done in the last 3 years. A good car and some good luck don't go amiss, but you cannot deny them.


But that is just my take on it.


It's funny, people think that the cars drive themselves for some reason......

You mean they don't? I thought Vettel just sat there and practiced the finger point while Newey's rocketship went on it's own...

Adrian actually drives the car himself, remotely, via that pen he's always fiddling with on the pit wall.

So that's what the pen's for!!!! I've always wondered! Thank you Ashley!

If you've ever wondered about Christian's foot jiggling...that's him repeatedly tapping Mark's brake pedal. I know all their secrets.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Jackie, no one cares mate. And you didn't exactly win a title in a Bellasi did you?

He should just be happy his 'old' team have won 3 consecutive titles.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:38 pm 
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Lol no...

Adrian Newey is a great in F1.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:48 pm 
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I think he can be counted a great, and I think there's more to come.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:49 pm 
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I have said before no doubting his talent and no offence to mark i would have prefered to see how he would do with either Hamilton or Alonso in the other red bull as i think its the only way you can judge the drivers fairly and prove beyond doubt how much was car how much was vettel, he obviously is a very good qualifier and has proven he can overtake this year. But until he has the best in the car alongside him for instance senna/prost you will never truly know.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Lol no...

Adrian Newey is a great in F1.


Stereotypical Lewis fan.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:52 pm 
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He has been in the best car for the last few seasons and he is good,but he is not great. Alonso is a better all round driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:53 pm 
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But still he is still considered a great because after all said and done his stats will remain and statistically he is one of the best of all time and barring an injury leading to early retirement or worse when he does retire he will have surpassed nearly everyone or even everyone


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:04 pm 
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Is he a great now? I think it's too early to call, I think it's only fair to judge how "great" a driver is, once their career is over and the dust has settled.

That being said, I think he is well on his way to becoming a great. You don't win 3 world titles by accident. People say oh he had the best car. Well, to be World Driver's Champion, you need the best car. It's as simple as that. Look at all the recent driver's champions and they've all had the best car over that season. Had Alonso won it this year, it would have been the first in a long time for someone to win it, in a car that wasn't the best.

Also this Newey factor is a load of BS. I hate it when people go on about Newey like he's god. End all be all of Red Bull, when in fact, he doesn't even guarantee success. McLaren weren't too successful with Newey, Red Bull weren't successful at all until the regulation change. He has a very dedicated and immensely talented design team behind him, who are willing to work alongside him to truly produce a great package.If Newey leaves Red Bull, you won't see them suddenly fall from the heights they are at now in 1 season.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:13 pm 
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3 titles in the best car, I'd say not.

Stewart just speaks the truth and he knows much more than any of us.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:14 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
3 titles in the best car, I'd say not.

Stewart just speaks the truth and he knows much more than any of us.


Out of interest, what do you think of Webber?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:15 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
Jomox wrote:
3 titles in the best car, I'd say not.

Stewart just speaks the truth and he knows much more than any of us.


Out of interest, what do you think of Webber?


On his day deadly fast, but this is only on some occasions, he lacks the consistency of a champion.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
Jomox wrote:
3 titles in the best car, I'd say not.

Stewart just speaks the truth and he knows much more than any of us.


Out of interest, what do you think of Webber?


On his day deadly fast, but this is only on some occasions, he lacks the consistency of a champion.

Pretty good summary :thumbup:

Disagree on the Vettel bit, but agree on the Webber.

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