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Vettel a great?
yes 53%  53%  [ 65 ]
no 47%  47%  [ 57 ]
Total votes : 122
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:35 pm 
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People only see what they want to see, and have a sliding yardstick. If you ask some who on the current grid is great, they'll tell you one driver or another. If you ask why, they say "because he's won XYZ". What about Sebastian then? You ask, because he's won XYZ three times as often as that great guy. "Nope its not good enough," they reply. Nothing objective about that.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:50 pm 
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^

Just sharing my opinion mate, the poll asks for it.
I just wrote what I want to see from him and explained why I don't think he is good enough yet.
And believe me, I do want to see more racing from everyone, the more the better. Don't care if it comes from my least favorite driver.
Not saying Vettel isn't my least favorite, I actually like the guy, I just don't like RB and the fact he has won his 3 titles with them.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:09 pm 
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Didn't address my post to you specifically.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:20 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
One interesting aspect of Jackie Stewart's comment is that the main reason's he considers Vettel as 'not great' because he has not won in lesser machinery. He also quotes Fangio, Prost, Senna and Schumacher as greats by that yardstick.

I am NOT arguing here who is or is not great but Stewart's comments are rather flawed in that respect. Fangio not only did not win in any 'lesser' car but more often that not the cars he drove were utterly dominant over the opposition. It is well documented that he openly demanded that he got his temmmate's car if he felt that the other car was better and threatened to move teams if he did not get what he asked.

Likewise, Prost's 4 titles were in cars that were among the top frontrunners at the time. Only Senna and perhaps Schumacher during his Benetton years cam claim to have won races with cars that were not the best on the field.

In any case, dirvers of one era cannot be compared with another. Instead of asking how Vettel could have coped in the 1950s, one can also ask how Fangio could have managed with today's draconian regulations and political correctness.

But one thing I do agree with Stewart. It is awkward to lable any active driver as 'great'. Best to wait till he has retired.

In all fairness, Prost's title in 1986 was won in a car which was clearly inferior to the Williams.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
One interesting aspect of Jackie Stewart's comment is that the main reason's he considers Vettel as 'not great' because he has not won in lesser machinery. He also quotes Fangio, Prost, Senna and Schumacher as greats by that yardstick.

I am NOT arguing here who is or is not great but Stewart's comments are rather flawed in that respect. Fangio not only did not win in any 'lesser' car but more often that not the cars he drove were utterly dominant over the opposition. It is well documented that he openly demanded that he got his temmmate's car if he felt that the other car was better and threatened to move teams if he did not get what he asked.

Likewise, Prost's 4 titles were in cars that were among the top frontrunners at the time. Only Senna and perhaps Schumacher during his Benetton years cam claim to have won races with cars that were not the best on the field.

In any case, dirvers of one era cannot be compared with another. Instead of asking how Vettel could have coped in the 1950s, one can also ask how Fangio could have managed with today's draconian regulations and political correctness.

But one thing I do agree with Stewart. It is awkward to lable any active driver as 'great'. Best to wait till he has retired.

In all fairness, Prost's title in 1986 was won in a car which was clearly inferior to the Williams.


OK, agreed. That is why I said "among the frontrunners" rather than the frontrunner.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:01 am 
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mds wrote:
Wait, so there can be only one "great" driver according to you?

Think about that for a moment.


Of course not. But people are asking question whether after 2012 and 3rd consecutive title, Vettel enterer club of great drivers. Vettel's boss Horner admits 2 previous titles were easy (no wonder, with such car advantage you can drive cirles around other drivers) - 'this is his best Championship because he has had to work so hard for it' - and hails 3rd title as the best one and still all team principals rated losing the title by Alonso much higher than Vettel winning his the best title yet.

It's very simple and logical. If Alonso's season when he lost the title is rated much higher than the guy who actually won championship, then Vettel wasn't great, and if in Red Bull's opinion 2012 title is the best one and it still wasn't rated as such by team principals, then Vettel isn't great.

What would be completely illogical is stating despite Alonso being appreciated by team principals much, much higher than Vettel, Vettel is somehow great. Nope, what Jackie Stewart is right, and I said it many times - the day Vettel will leave Newey team or he will be paired with top driver on equal status (which isn' the case rtight now, when Webber is treated like a bitch - remember front wing bullcrap in 2010? - and his DRS or KERS isn't working 50% of time), he will be exposed as a driver and no one will even think about calling him great. Many eyes will be wide open, but for now he has huge benefit of car advantage, which is covering his lack of talent in comparison to true top drivers.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:21 am 
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SchumieRules wrote:
Are you being deliberately naive?

This is a voting for this year. Being a great means overall their careers.

By your standard Senna couldn't be a great, I mean he had a sh*t 1992 right?


To be great, people have to applaud your greatest achievements. When 2012 title, the best one yet according to Red Bull themselves, is held by team principals in much lower esteem than losing the title by Alonso, then it's not great, as simple as that.

Senna won titles in 1988, 1990 and 1991 and there's no one to say Prost, again Prost and Mansell in respective years would be rated much higher than winner Senna himself. Meanwhile Vettel won titles in 2010, 2011 and 2012, and only in 2011, the year when his car was simply on another level compared to opposition, he was rated by team principals as the best driver. 2 out of 3 years he got his titles, Fernando Alonso was rated as better (2010) and much better (2012). Difference is striking.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:29 am 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
mds wrote:
Wait, so there can be only one "great" driver according to you?

Think about that for a moment.


It's very simple and logical. If Alonso's season when he lost the title is rated much higher than the guy who actually won championship, then Vettel wasn't great, and if in Red Bull's opinion 2012 title is the best one and it still wasn't rated as such by team principals, then Vettel isn't great.


Why would both be mutually exclusive? Vettel has had a great year with some great drives and another WDC, but Alonso as a driver had the edge. Hamilton has also been great.

Quote:
What would be completely illogical is stating despite Alonso being appreciated by team principals much, much higher than Vettel, Vettel is somehow great.


Hold on - we're talking about this years vote and extrapolating that somehow to a whole career? Last year Vettel was rated higher than anyone by team principals, the year before it was Alonso, the year before that it was Vettel. Why give 2012 all the weight in this discussion?

Quote:
the day Vettel will leave Newey team or he will be paired with top driver on equal status (which isn' the case rtight now, when Webber is treated like a bitch - remember front wing bullcrap in 2010? - and his DRS or KERS isn't working 50% of time), he will be exposed as a driver and no one will even think about calling him great. Many eyes will be wide open, but for now he has huge benefit of car advantage, which is covering his lack of talent in comparison to true top drivers.


This is all very much you guessing without any facts.
How many times will people bring up the front wing incident? That incident is no excuse for the fact Webber couldn't manage to finish one position behind Vettel in the WDC in either one of the past 4 years.

Also funny: Massa giving up 5 starting places - no problem. Webber handing over a front wing to Vettel (after Vettel having stated preference for that wing and Webber being indifferent about old and new spec wing) - OOH LA LA BIG PROBLEM.
Alonso building a godlike status next to a very submissive Massa - no problem. Hamilton scoring less points than Button over the past 3 years - all circumstancial, Hamilton is God. Vettel outperforming Webber (arguably a better driver than Massa) each and every year - IT'S ALL THE CAR.

Nope. You might suspect Vettel is less of a driver, but it's not a fact, not proven, all we know is Vettel came into a RBR that was crap and won 3 WDC's over the next 4 years. Those are facts.

Armchair Expert is an armchair expert.

edit: also, be careful what you wish for. I wouldn't be so sure Alonso would outperform Vettel if both were in the same team. But we probably will never know, because I'd bet big bucks on Alonso not wanting Vettel alongside him.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:37 am 
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mds wrote:
Webber handing over a front wing to Vettel (after Vettel having stated preference for that wing and Webber being indifferent about old and new spec wing) - OOH LA LA BIG PROBLEM.


Didn't 'hand it over', but that'd be beating a very, very dead horse.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:38 am 
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"having to hand over" then. Or "ripping it off his car". Don't care too much, frankly.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:42 am 
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Bruce_70 wrote:
Maybe you should think a lot moments more about it and get your facts straight.
Greatness doesn't come from one year alone. And now go check the autosport team principal votings for 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 together to see who was the greatest in a 4-year span for the team bosses. Alonso didn't even make it in the top 3 all four years, Vettel got two first places and two second places in comparison to Alonso who got two first places, a fourth place and a third place.
Think about that.....


I checked:

2009 - Alonso in a midfield car for the whole year, with only 1 podium, and is still rated in 4th place (Vettel in 2008 with a win was rated only 5th)
2010 - Vettel in dominant car lost to Alonso
2011 - Vettel in truly dominant car 1st, Alonso in a dog of car (Massa, the same driver who got multiple podiums in 2010, couldn't even finish one race higher than 5th) is 3rd, right behind Button who had much quicker car
2012 - Vettel in dominant car lost to Alonso

Whenever Alonso is in title fight, despite losing to Vettel, he is rated higher than him. In years when he wasn't because of car performance, he is still rated very high. That means he is great driver, not Vettel, who isn't even voted as the best when he wins titles.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:52 am 
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You always have your excuses ready, right? Having a good or bad car isn't the question here - it's how drivers performed with the material given. Vettel might have been dominant in the obviously good RB of 2011, his team mate didn't even come close to him and didn't even get second in the WDC. So regardless of the car, Vettel performed great.

Apparently, team bosses think that for the past 4 years, Vettel deserved it 2 times, and Alonso deserved it 2 times. Those are the facts.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:03 am 
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Warheart01 wrote:
For me he just hasn't proved enough yet for me to call him ''a great''.
F1 is about racing other people and Vettel has had so many wins (the majority??) when he has just been cruising to the finish from pole.
And statistics can only get you so far, he is still a fairly sloppy driver tbh. I want to see more of his genuine racecraft.
So far I would rate him a well deserved 4th place of the best drivers on the current grid.


Very true. When Hamilton was disqualified in Spain he raced his way into 8th, cleanly without any contacts and without luck of SC period. When Vettel was disqualified in Abu Dhabi, he crashed into Senna, then crashed into DRS board driving behind SC :lol:, and then illegally overtook Grosjean only to give position back and in result lose time. 2 Safety Car periods in ideal times meant he could snatch lowest step of a podium.

In Malaysia he collided with backmarker. In Germany he overtook illegally Button and got drive through for that. In Italy he pushed Alonso into grass at 300 kph. In Abu Dhabi his racing was very messy. In Brazil he cut across Senna, took 2 cars out of the race and almost himself out of championship.

Hamilton and Alonso are definitely league aboove him. Raikkonen higher too and we don't know yet what Hulkenberg and Perez would do in top car, not to mention dominant one like Vettel is enjoying since 2009.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:10 am 
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So, you base your entire logic on solely the 2012 season? You're conviently forgetting Hamilton had a less-than-perfect 2011, that's forgiven, but Vettel making a few errors in 2012 means he's "definitely" not as great as Hamilton?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:39 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
Are you being deliberately naive?

This is a voting for this year. Being a great means overall their careers.

By your standard Senna couldn't be a great, I mean he had a sh*t 1992 right?


To be great, people have to applaud your greatest achievements. When 2012 title, the best one yet according to Red Bull themselves, is held by team principals in much lower esteem than losing the title by Alonso, then it's not great, as simple as that.

Senna won titles in 1988, 1990 and 1991 and there's no one to say Prost, again Prost and Mansell in respective years would be rated much higher than winner Senna himself. Meanwhile Vettel won titles in 2010, 2011 and 2012, and only in 2011, the year when his car was simply on another level compared to opposition, he was rated by team principals as the best driver. 2 out of 3 years he got his titles, Fernando Alonso was rated as better (2010) and much better (2012). Difference is striking.


That's your opinion and I wish you didn't try to force it. I can say "Vettel 3WDC's out of 6 seasons, Alonso 2WDC's out of 11 seasons, Vettel better, as simple as that". It is not as simple as that.

Now, as people told you here, you are trying to equate one year's voting to being "a great". You cannot. You have to take in consideration their whole careers when talking about great champions. And this is something that is not easy. And the "2 out of 3 years he got his titles, Fernando Alonso was rated as better (2010) and much better (2012)" part is very cleverly selected to suit your point. Why not including a year that none of them won, like 2009? Who was ahead back then? Vettel won and he did not even win the WDC. Does that count? Oh, Alonso was just 4th? Difference is striking as you said yourself.

Also RB claiming this to be their most tiring WCC (not WDC) means nothing like what you described (if this is the article you were referring to: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20389053). Getting to the top is difficult enough, trying to remain to the top is as tiring as it gets, as everyone is chasing you, trying to beat you. Plus the blown diffuser hurt them badly, so yeah, it was their most tiring WCC.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:51 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:18 pm 
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SchumieRules wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
Are you being deliberately naive?

This is a voting for this year. Being a great means overall their careers.

By your standard Senna couldn't be a great, I mean he had a sh*t 1992 right?


To be great, people have to applaud your greatest achievements. When 2012 title, the best one yet according to Red Bull themselves, is held by team principals in much lower esteem than losing the title by Alonso, then it's not great, as simple as that.

Senna won titles in 1988, 1990 and 1991 and there's no one to say Prost, again Prost and Mansell in respective years would be rated much higher than winner Senna himself. Meanwhile Vettel won titles in 2010, 2011 and 2012, and only in 2011, the year when his car was simply on another level compared to opposition, he was rated by team principals as the best driver. 2 out of 3 years he got his titles, Fernando Alonso was rated as better (2010) and much better (2012). Difference is striking.


That's your opinion and I wish you didn't try to force it. I can say "Vettel 3WDC's out of 6 seasons, Alonso 2WDC's out of 11 seasons, Vettel better, as simple as that". It is not as simple as that.

Now, as people told you here, you are trying to equate one year's voting to being "a great". You cannot. You have to take in consideration their whole careers when talking about great champions. And this is something that is not easy. And the "2 out of 3 years he got his titles, Fernando Alonso was rated as better (2010) and much better (2012)" part is very cleverly selected to suit your point. Why not including a year that none of them won, like 2009? Who was ahead back then? Vettel won and he did not even win the WDC. Does that count? Oh, Alonso was just 4th? Difference is striking as you said yourself.

Also RB claiming this to be their most tiring WCC (not WDC) means nothing like what you described (if this is the article you were referring to: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20389053). Getting to the top is difficult enough, trying to remain to the top is as tiring as it gets, as everyone is chasing you, trying to beat you. Plus the blown diffuser hurt them badly, so yeah, it was their most tiring WCC.


Very well spoken, couldn't agree more.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:33 pm 
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Vettel is a great, full stop.
Some people have problems with how quickly he has become a great


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Bruce_70 wrote:

Very well spoken, couldn't agree more.


Thank you

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:

In Malaysia he collided with backmarker. In Germany he overtook illegally Button and got drive through for that. In Italy he pushed Alonso into grass at 300 kph. In Abu Dhabi his racing was very messy. In Brazil he cut across Senna, took 2 cars out of the race and almost himself out of championship.


None of which were his fault! :smug:

Malaysia - Karthikeyan was being a cucumber head!
Germany - Conspiracy by the Stewards!
Italy - Conspiracy by Alonso and the Stewards!
Abu Dhabi - Err... Ferrari and the FIA sabotaged his fuel systems for qualifying!
Brazil - Senna has no right to be at the apex when a double world champion decides to turn in!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:15 pm 
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theodore wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:

In Malaysia he collided with backmarker. In Germany he overtook illegally Button and got drive through for that. In Italy he pushed Alonso into grass at 300 kph. In Abu Dhabi his racing was very messy. In Brazil he cut across Senna, took 2 cars out of the race and almost himself out of championship.


None of which were his fault! :smug:

Malaysia - Karthikeyan was being a cucumber head!
Germany - Conspiracy by the Stewards!
Italy - Conspiracy by Alonso and the Stewards!
Abu Dhabi - Err... Ferrari and the FIA sabotaged his fuel systems for qualifying!
Brazil - Senna has no right to be at the apex when a double world champion decides to turn in!

Silly rabbit, you forgot the strategically placed safety car in VLC that broke his alternator.

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