planetf1.com

It is currently Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:01 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: Ohio
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20669262

I am so tired of this garbage. He talks about how Alonso had the title in '10 if not for a Ferrari mess up and how lucky Vettel was. He skips the part where Vettel was leading the first race when the car broke down and Alonso got the free win, and race two when the car had problems and he went from leading to 4th or in Korea when the car broke down and he went from 1st to last.

Lots of titles are close and you could write how they all could have gone the other way... This Benson guy LOVES Alonso and retweets every single Alonso tweet.... He is on a mission to down play Vettel and let the world know Alonso is the true King


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Barnsley, England
Hakkattack wrote:
He skips the part where Vettel was leading the first race when the car broke down and Alonso got the free win, and race two when the car had problems and he went from leading to 4th


Just want to point out that you got your two races mixed up, it was the other way round. In Bahrain, Vettel was leading then had a problem which dropped him to fourth and in Oz he retired from the lead with a brake failure, but I don't quite understand whats the big thing about that because its not like Alonso gained lots of points on Vettel in that race. And whose to say Vettel would of won that race with JB's strategy.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: Ohio
Gaz wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
He skips the part where Vettel was leading the first race when the car broke down and Alonso got the free win, and race two when the car had problems and he went from leading to 4th


Just want to point out that you got your two races mixed up, it was the other way round. In Bahrain, Vettel was leading then had a problem which dropped him to fourth and in Oz he retired from the lead with a brake failure, but I don't quite understand whats the big thing about that because its not like Alonso gained lots of points on Vettel in that race. And whose to say Vettel would of won that race with JB's strategy.


it has nothing to do with how many Alonso gained... it is the 40 points Vettel lost between those 2 races... In fact throw in Korea and he lost 65 points in those 3 races


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:53 am
Posts: 2596
Location: Somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert
Hakk, you miss the point. The article ruminates on how relatively arbitrary factors can skew statistics in one way or another, and that we should judge a driver on more telling criteria (such as how good they are, controversial as it sounds).

Quote:
And that's the point. Statistics don't mean everything. In fact, in the big picture, they mean very little. They're just numbers. They can't be ignored, but the real truth lies elsewhere.


He's stating facts, or widely held beliefs, when he say's Ferrari lead the suspicions that got the Michelin's declared illegal in 04, or when Schumi knocked Hill out in 94, or when Senna's disqualification probably cost him the title etc. etc. To point out the misleading value of statistics it makes sense to ponder the what if's. Some find that pointless, some harmless and interesting.

His point is that Alonso is/should be the yardstick because he's the best, not Vettel because he has the most titles. I don't think many neutral observers would disagree with that.


EDIT
And I think Benson's crap, by the way.

_________________
I went skating on your name,
And by tracing it twice,
I fell through the ice,
of Alice


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm
Posts: 1738
Usual Benson drivel.

Dont have a problem with him having an opinion but it does rattle me that I am paying his salary ! £11 per month


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:51 am
Posts: 1167
It's just like the garbage a lot on here talk

Hamilton would've won the championship if... If if if if if if

All ifs and buts

Vettel won end of

_________________
Multi 21 or Catch 22?!

It ain't hating just 'cause it's not love


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:16 pm
Posts: 107
Hakkattack wrote:
Gaz wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
He skips the part where Vettel was leading the first race when the car broke down and Alonso got the free win, and race two when the car had problems and he went from leading to 4th


Just want to point out that you got your two races mixed up, it was the other way round. In Bahrain, Vettel was leading then had a problem which dropped him to fourth and in Oz he retired from the lead with a brake failure, but I don't quite understand whats the big thing about that because its not like Alonso gained lots of points on Vettel in that race. And whose to say Vettel would of won that race with JB's strategy.


it has nothing to do with how many Alonso gained... it is the 40 points Vettel lost between those 2 races... In fact throw in Korea and he lost 65 points in those 3 races


So? He threw away valuable points in Turkey and Spa.

Not to mention Alonso was dead last in Australia through no fault of his own, and even started at Monaco from the back of the grid. Let alone his mechanical failure in Malaysia.

Please... let's not carry on with this Vettel garbage. The Red Bulls have always been unreliable. It's Newey trademark.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: Ohio
No, the point of the article is to make Vettel some lucky little kid who has this great car, and King Alonso has to win races with weights tied to his car.... He can say he thinks Alonso is the best in his mind and that is fine. However, he rattles on with misleading facts like '10 was Alonso's title if not for another Ferrari error(never once mentions Alonso had 40 laps to get by the Renault. I would argue a "great" would have found his way by some how. that would be the very definition of great. He also fails to mention all the problems Vettel had that year with the car.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 4562
Location: Ireland
Hakkattack wrote:
No, the point of the article is to make Vettel some lucky little kid who has this great car, and King Alonso has to win races with weights tied to his car.... He can say he thinks Alonso is the best in his mind and that is fine. However, he rattles on with misleading facts like '10 was Alonso's title if not for another Ferrari error(never once mentions Alonso had 40 laps to get by the Renault. I would argue a "great" would have found his way by some how. that would be the very definition of great. He also fails to mention all the problems Vettel had that year with the car.

Remember 2010? And how ridiculously difficult it had become to overtake?
That race appears to be the very reason they made sure DRS was on the cars in 2011.

_________________
"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."


#14 for '14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 3930
Balibari wrote:
Hakk, you miss the point. The article ruminates on how relatively arbitrary factors can skew statistics in one way or another, and that we should judge a driver on more telling criteria (such as how good they are, controversial as it sounds).

Quote:
And that's the point. Statistics don't mean everything. In fact, in the big picture, they mean very little. They're just numbers. They can't be ignored, but the real truth lies elsewhere.


He's stating facts, or widely held beliefs, when he say's Ferrari lead the suspicions that got the Michelin's declared illegal in 04, or when Schumi knocked Hill out in 94, or when Senna's disqualification probably cost him the title etc. etc. To point out the misleading value of statistics it makes sense to ponder the what if's. Some find that pointless, some harmless and interesting.

His point is that Alonso is/should be the yardstick because he's the best, not Vettel because he has the most titles. I don't think many neutral observers would disagree with that.


EDIT
And I think Benson's crap, by the way.



I agree, but his Schumacher hatred/Alonso love is evident. All the drivers he lists could have won more WDC's. Only to point out that Schumacher could have less. He forgets that even Schumacher could have won more, say in '98, '99 or even '06. He points the '03 tyre shambles instead, when in fact Schumacher could have been anything from a 5xWDC to a 10xWDC. He chose to mention the worst.

While on Alonso he goes blind suddenly. In '10 the team indeed made a mistake, but Alonso couldn't pass a slower car for the whole race. No mention of that. Then for this year he mentions Spa and says about all the points Alonso lost, forgetting that Vettel had DNF's as well.

No, he makes a point, but his way is sh*te once again

_________________
ΜΣ...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:09 am
Posts: 2166
Location: Perth, Australia
The thing I hate about the Internet is that you simply cannot choose to not click on an article written by a journalist you know will say things you don't agree with.

_________________
Image
I also have one of these.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm
Posts: 1738
Hakkattack wrote:
No, the point of the article is to make Vettel some lucky little kid who has this great car, and King Alonso has to win races with weights tied to his car.... He can say he thinks Alonso is the best in his mind and that is fine. However, he rattles on with misleading facts like '10 was Alonso's title if not for another Ferrari error(never once mentions Alonso had 40 laps to get by the Renault. I would argue a "great" would have found his way by some how. that would be the very definition of great. He also fails to mention all the problems Vettel had that year with the car.


Thats exactly the point.
Alonso is simply a safe driver and too afraid to make mistakes and that works well generally and will net you good points (see KIMI ) until you run into an aggressive driver like Vettel who at the same track started from the pitlane (again due to teams fault) and finished on podium. Compare and contrast .

Repeated the act in Brazil. When has Alonso done that ? How can he be great if he continues to get stuck behind Petrov (almost a non-factor)

I would go as far as saying - Vettel is championship material and Alonso is not. Alonso will have good finishing positions , podiums and large points haul (maybe even greater than Vettel) but will probably not win another title as long as Seb is in the field.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:16 pm
Posts: 107
mcdo wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
No, the point of the article is to make Vettel some lucky little kid who has this great car, and King Alonso has to win races with weights tied to his car.... He can say he thinks Alonso is the best in his mind and that is fine. However, he rattles on with misleading facts like '10 was Alonso's title if not for another Ferrari error(never once mentions Alonso had 40 laps to get by the Renault. I would argue a "great" would have found his way by some how. that would be the very definition of great. He also fails to mention all the problems Vettel had that year with the car.

Remember 2010? And how ridiculously difficult it had become to overtake?
That race appears to be the very reason they made sure DRS was on the cars in 2011.


:thumbup:

If I remember correctly, Kubica was the only one to successfully make an overtake in the Top 10 once the first and final pitstops were settled.

That race was ALSO a reason why Pirelli was demanded to make high degradation tyres, so we wouldn't see drivers putting in 50+ laps on a set of mediums.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm
Posts: 1738
mcdo wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
No, the point of the article is to make Vettel some lucky little kid who has this great car, and King Alonso has to win races with weights tied to his car.... He can say he thinks Alonso is the best in his mind and that is fine. However, he rattles on with misleading facts like '10 was Alonso's title if not for another Ferrari error(never once mentions Alonso had 40 laps to get by the Renault. I would argue a "great" would have found his way by some how. that would be the very definition of great. He also fails to mention all the problems Vettel had that year with the car.

Remember 2010? And how ridiculously difficult it had become to overtake?
That race appears to be the very reason they made sure DRS was on the cars in 2011.


No body is asking for plenty of overtakes. He just had to take Petrov to make his strategy work.

In fact I m amazed even to this day that Alonso sat there looking at Petrov s a$$ for 40 laps when his first title for Ferrari depended on it. Much better to DNF than to sit there like that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 1483
F1yer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
No, the point of the article is to make Vettel some lucky little kid who has this great car, and King Alonso has to win races with weights tied to his car.... He can say he thinks Alonso is the best in his mind and that is fine. However, he rattles on with misleading facts like '10 was Alonso's title if not for another Ferrari error(never once mentions Alonso had 40 laps to get by the Renault. I would argue a "great" would have found his way by some how. that would be the very definition of great. He also fails to mention all the problems Vettel had that year with the car.

Remember 2010? And how ridiculously difficult it had become to overtake?
That race appears to be the very reason they made sure DRS was on the cars in 2011.


No body is asking for plenty of overtakes. He just had to take Petrov to make his strategy work.

In fact I m amazed even to this day that Alonso sat there looking at Petrov s a$$ for 40 laps when his first title for Ferrari depended on it. Much better to DNF than to sit there like that.


Oh yes, this forum would have not made any issue of FA crashing in an attempt to a pass a car he really had no chance of passing.

_________________
Going to Spa? Check out my site. http://visit-spa-francorchamps.page.tl/
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world
Oh and Bernie, National flags should be raised not flipped. Sort it!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 1483
Hakkattack wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20669262

I am so tired of this garbage. He talks about how Alonso had the title in '10 if not for a Ferrari mess up and how lucky Vettel was. He skips the part where Vettel was leading the first race when the car broke down and Alonso got the free win, and race two when the car had problems and he went from leading to 4th or in Korea when the car broke down and he went from 1st to last.

Lots of titles are close and you could write how they all could have gone the other way... This Benson guy LOVES Alonso and retweets every single Alonso tweet.... He is on a mission to down play Vettel and let the world know Alonso is the true King


So are we!!!!!

_________________
Going to Spa? Check out my site. http://visit-spa-francorchamps.page.tl/
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world
Oh and Bernie, National flags should be raised not flipped. Sort it!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:14 am
Posts: 59
F1yer wrote:
Repeated the act in Brazil. When has Alonso done that ? How can he be great if he continues to get stuck behind Petrov (almost a non-factor)

I would go as far as saying - Vettel is championship material and Alonso is not. Alonso will have good finishing positions , podiums and large points haul (maybe even greater than Vettel) but will probably not win another title as long as Seb is in the field.


To be fair, Fernando doesnt have 3 cars jumping out his way like wounded animals like seb does.

And for the record, i think Seb is a great driver; bad drivers do not win world championships; and only top tier drivers win3. That said, the stink around the whole TR/MS "ohh look he is comming i best move now" stuff made me turn off in disgust @ the end of this season.

I am not a ferarri fan (far be it in fact), nore a alonso fan. I however now think that redbul as a organisation are rotting our sport. and back on topic, Benson is a idiot, always has been, really not sure how he gets paid.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 95
Location: Milan, Italy
F1yer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
No, the point of the article is to make Vettel some lucky little kid who has this great car, and King Alonso has to win races with weights tied to his car.... He can say he thinks Alonso is the best in his mind and that is fine. However, he rattles on with misleading facts like '10 was Alonso's title if not for another Ferrari error(never once mentions Alonso had 40 laps to get by the Renault. I would argue a "great" would have found his way by some how. that would be the very definition of great. He also fails to mention all the problems Vettel had that year with the car.

Remember 2010? And how ridiculously difficult it had become to overtake?
That race appears to be the very reason they made sure DRS was on the cars in 2011.


No body is asking for plenty of overtakes. He just had to take Petrov to make his strategy work.

In fact I m amazed even to this day that Alonso sat there looking at Petrov s a$$ for 40 laps when his first title for Ferrari depended on it. Much better to DNF than to sit there like that.


well actually there was Petrov and after him there was Rosberg in a Merc. and Nico is no slouch either.
bottom line, Alonso choked ... just like he pretty much did in Brazil this year: had it not been for Massa incredible pace and devotion (the move on Mark to let Alonso pass was simply genius) and Hulkenberg's blunder we wouldn't be talking about Alonso's WDC near miss. all he had to do was come 3rd and pretty much put himself in cruise&control mode when he should have attacked like hell. up to singapore he was worthy of the title but afterwards he thought that 05-06 strategy could bring him another one just by cruising and taking advantage of others misfortunes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:53 am
Posts: 2596
Location: Somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert
I read it a different way but it looks like I'm in the minority. Yes he's partisan, but the incidents and ramifications he cites are logical given his point. He's saying stats are less important than perceived talent as a means of judging a driver. So to me it seems logical to single out Schumi and Vettel and focus on how they may have ended up with less impressive stats, stats define them more than any other drivers of the age. And both are arguably overrated by their stats. Schumi because nobody can be that much better than everyone else, and Vettel because he is not generally seen as the best on the grid in spite of having the most success.

Maybe I'm being too kind to him. Any shred of respect I had for Andrew Benson went out the window during that overtaking under yellow debacle. He didn't seem to pick up on it until it had been settled, but he went right on ahead making a fuss about it even when everyone else had been satisfied.

_________________
I went skating on your name,
And by tracing it twice,
I fell through the ice,
of Alice


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:01 am
Posts: 940
Balibari wrote:
I read it a different way but it looks like I'm in the minority. Yes he's partisan, but the incidents and ramifications he cites are logical given his point. He's saying stats are less important than perceived talent as a means of judging a driver. So to me it seems logical to single out Schumi and Vettel and focus on how they may have ended up with less impressive stats, stats define them more than any other drivers of the age. And both are arguably overrated by their stats. Schumi because nobody can be that much better than everyone else, and Vettel because he is not generally seen as the best on the grid in spite of having the most success.

Maybe I'm being too kind to him. Any shred of respect I had for Andrew Benson went out the window during that overtaking under yellow debacle. He didn't seem to pick up on it until it had been settled, but he went right on ahead making a fuss about it even when everyone else had been satisfied.


I guess the problem some people have - is that despite the fact that Benson's point is valid, he probably chose the worst drivers to use as negative examples due to their rabid fanboys.

There are plenty of other options out there he could have chosen in terms of showing how championships were decided and some have good luck and others have bad luck etc...

...but instead he chose to mention 2 drivers with massive support thereby generating a lot of traffic to his article by those fanboys outraged at what he is saying.



I mean, he could have used some older examples of drivers who narrowly missed out and how things could have been different.



His point is valid in that rather than just look at points tables, it's worth knowing the details behind an entire season - but his delivery is gutter journalism...

:D :D :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:17 am
Posts: 660
I don't like Benson's articles either, and I know some people think he chose to slant his argument in favour of Alonso and against Vettel and Schumacher as a result of his enduring love for Alonso. I read the article and thought he was taking a logical viewpoint, given that Vettel won the titles and Alonso didn't. If you're going to talk about what ifs, then you have to look at it that way round, otherwise they're not what-ifs.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:07 pm
Posts: 668
Gothalamide wrote:
I guess the problem some people have - is that despite the fact that Benson's point is valid, he probably chose the worst drivers to use as negative examples due to their rabid fanboys.

There are plenty of other options out there he could have chosen in terms of showing how championships were decided and some have good luck and others have bad luck etc...

...but instead he chose to mention 2 drivers with massive support thereby generating a lot of traffic to his article by those fanboys outraged at what he is saying.



I mean, he could have used some older examples of drivers who narrowly missed out and how things could have been different.



His point is valid in that rather than just look at points tables, it's worth knowing the details behind an entire season - but his delivery is gutter journalism...

:D :D :D

Hold on one sec, Gothalamide.

Could you please point out how many rabid Alonso fanboys have you seen in this thread? (I assume he is one of the drivers you are referring to given the discussion here)

I am a bit tired of reading discussions in which one driver is being attacked by supporters of other driver, and then to have supporters of both drivers being tarred with the same brush even if their attitudes have been drastically different.

Obviously, if you show me an example of rabid Alonso fanboyism in this thread I'll be happy to retire my words. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:21 pm
Posts: 939
Location: California
If their opponents' car were reliable in 2005 and 2006, Alonso would have ended up with no titles as well. So this what ifs can go either way....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:09 pm
Posts: 1104
Yeah Benson writes a lot of bull$hit, his articles are insanely biased.

_________________
米克尔 科琳娜 吉娜 米克
Keep Fighting Michael!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 3930
morgana wrote:
Gothalamide wrote:
I guess the problem some people have - is that despite the fact that Benson's point is valid, he probably chose the worst drivers to use as negative examples due to their rabid fanboys.

There are plenty of other options out there he could have chosen in terms of showing how championships were decided and some have good luck and others have bad luck etc...

...but instead he chose to mention 2 drivers with massive support thereby generating a lot of traffic to his article by those fanboys outraged at what he is saying.



I mean, he could have used some older examples of drivers who narrowly missed out and how things could have been different.



His point is valid in that rather than just look at points tables, it's worth knowing the details behind an entire season - but his delivery is gutter journalism...

:D :D :D

Hold on one sec, Gothalamide.

Could you please point out how many rabid Alonso fanboys have you seen in this thread? (I assume he is one of the drivers you are referring to given the discussion here)

I am a bit tired of reading discussions in which one driver is being attacked by supporters of other driver, and then to have supporters of both drivers being tarred with the same brush even if their attitudes have been drastically different.

Obviously, if you show me an example of rabid Alonso fanboyism in this thread I'll be happy to retire my words. :)


Gothalamide talked about the negative examples Morgana, Benson didn't use Alonso as a negative example.

The negatives were Schumacher and Vettel

_________________
ΜΣ...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:53 am
Posts: 2596
Location: Somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert
domdonald wrote:
I don't like Benson's articles either, and I know some people think he chose to slant his argument in favour of Alonso and against Vettel and Schumacher as a result of his enduring love for Alonso. I read the article and thought he was taking a logical viewpoint, given that Vettel won the titles and Alonso didn't. If you're going to talk about what ifs, then you have to look at it that way round, otherwise they're not what-ifs.

Thank you for stating part of what I was rambling on about in a far more succinct way than I managed!

_________________
I went skating on your name,
And by tracing it twice,
I fell through the ice,
of Alice


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:07 pm
Posts: 668
PacificBeach wrote:
If their opponents' car were reliable in 2005 and 2006, Alonso would have ended up with no titles as well. So this what ifs can go either way....

Indeed. But then, if Alonso's car had been as fast as their opponents'... ;)

"Ifs" can be endless; but at the end, the important thing is when you are left with the impression that somebody did an extraordinary job. Everything else is, in my view, just trying to express with facts that general impression. And by the way, it is nice that people try to justify their opinions, only that sometimes impressions just cannot translate into hard facts, but more into certain specific details. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 3930
Balibari wrote:
domdonald wrote:
I don't like Benson's articles either, and I know some people think he chose to slant his argument in favour of Alonso and against Vettel and Schumacher as a result of his enduring love for Alonso. I read the article and thought he was taking a logical viewpoint, given that Vettel won the titles and Alonso didn't. If you're going to talk about what ifs, then you have to look at it that way round, otherwise they're not what-ifs.

Thank you for stating part of what I was rambling on about in a far more succinct way than I managed!


This I agree with.

The way AB delivers it though is worse than what I saw on the pavement this morning; and it wasn't a good sight!

_________________
ΜΣ...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 4562
Location: Ireland
F1yer wrote:
Thats exactly the point.
Alonso is simply a safe driver and too afraid to make mistakes and that works well generally and will net you good points (see KIMI ) until you run into an aggressive driver like Vettel who at the same track started from the pitlane (again due to teams fault) and finished on podium. Compare and contrast .

Repeated the act in Brazil. When has Alonso done that ? How can he be great if he continues to get stuck behind Petrov (almost a non-factor)

I would go as far as saying - Vettel is championship material and Alonso is not. Alonso will have good finishing positions , podiums and large points haul (maybe even greater than Vettel) but will probably not win another title as long as Seb is in the field.

You do know nobody will take you seriously and it will lead to people avoiding your posts?

_________________
"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."


#14 for '14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 4562
Location: Ireland
F1yer wrote:
No body is asking for plenty of overtakes. He just had to take Petrov to make his strategy work.

In fact I m amazed even to this day that Alonso sat there looking at Petrov s a$$ for 40 laps when his first title for Ferrari depended on it. Much better to DNF than to sit there like that.

Yeah... not really.

He would have looked like a right tit if he crashed into Petrov and a few laps later Seb had a failure, handing Webber the title.

_________________
"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."


#14 for '14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:07 pm
Posts: 668
SchumieRules wrote:
morgana wrote:
Gothalamide wrote:
I guess the problem some people have - is that despite the fact that Benson's point is valid, he probably chose the worst drivers to use as negative examples due to their rabid fanboys.

There are plenty of other options out there he could have chosen in terms of showing how championships were decided and some have good luck and others have bad luck etc...

...but instead he chose to mention 2 drivers with massive support thereby generating a lot of traffic to his article by those fanboys outraged at what he is saying.



I mean, he could have used some older examples of drivers who narrowly missed out and how things could have been different.



His point is valid in that rather than just look at points tables, it's worth knowing the details behind an entire season - but his delivery is gutter journalism...

:D :D :D

Hold on one sec, Gothalamide.

Could you please point out how many rabid Alonso fanboys have you seen in this thread? (I assume he is one of the drivers you are referring to given the discussion here)

I am a bit tired of reading discussions in which one driver is being attacked by supporters of other driver, and then to have supporters of both drivers being tarred with the same brush even if their attitudes have been drastically different.

Obviously, if you show me an example of rabid Alonso fanboyism in this thread I'll be happy to retire my words. :)


Gothalamide talked about the negative examples Morgana, Benson didn't use Alonso as a negative example.

The negatives were Schumacher and Vettel

:blush: My apologies, particularly to Gothalamide but also to others. Because in fact, my post was quite unfair even had Alonso been one of the examples Gothalamide used. For any top driver you always have a handful of rabid fans and a majority of sensible ones, and it is just a matter of coincidence which ones you face in any given thread. I jumped the gun here, and my only excuse is that some of those rabid fans have been very vocal for the last couple of weeks.

Anyway, hopefully the next couple of weeks will be quiet on this front so we will all relax (or rather, stress about Christmas presents), and then spend the rest of the off-season agonising over the long wait till Australia!


Last edited by morgana on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm
Posts: 1738
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Thats exactly the point.
Alonso is simply a safe driver and too afraid to make mistakes and that works well generally and will net you good points (see KIMI ) until you run into an aggressive driver like Vettel who at the same track started from the pitlane (again due to teams fault) and finished on podium. Compare and contrast .

Repeated the act in Brazil. When has Alonso done that ? How can he be great if he continues to get stuck behind Petrov (almost a non-factor)

I would go as far as saying - Vettel is championship material and Alonso is not. Alonso will have good finishing positions , podiums and large points haul (maybe even greater than Vettel) but will probably not win another title as long as Seb is in the field.

You do know nobody will take you seriously and it will lead to people avoiding your posts?


So - to be taken seriously , I have to buy the bullshit this guy writes.
Sorry much happier NOT to be taken seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm
Posts: 1738
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
No body is asking for plenty of overtakes. He just had to take Petrov to make his strategy work.

In fact I m amazed even to this day that Alonso sat there looking at Petrov s a$$ for 40 laps when his first title for Ferrari depended on it. Much better to DNF than to sit there like that.

Yeah... not really.

He would have looked like a right tit if he crashed into Petrov and a few laps later Seb had a failure, handing Webber the title.


Well he did not look much better - waving his hands on the slow down lap.

And I m not saying he should deliberately DNF , just that he should have tried more aggressively and not be afraid to crash out. You would be singing his praises if he salvaged that - wouldnt you?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 4562
Location: Ireland
klauss wrote:
F1yer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
No, the point of the article is to make Vettel some lucky little kid who has this great car, and King Alonso has to win races with weights tied to his car.... He can say he thinks Alonso is the best in his mind and that is fine. However, he rattles on with misleading facts like '10 was Alonso's title if not for another Ferrari error(never once mentions Alonso had 40 laps to get by the Renault. I would argue a "great" would have found his way by some how. that would be the very definition of great. He also fails to mention all the problems Vettel had that year with the car.

Remember 2010? And how ridiculously difficult it had become to overtake?
That race appears to be the very reason they made sure DRS was on the cars in 2011.


No body is asking for plenty of overtakes. He just had to take Petrov to make his strategy work.

In fact I m amazed even to this day that Alonso sat there looking at Petrov s a$$ for 40 laps when his first title for Ferrari depended on it. Much better to DNF than to sit there like that.


well actually there was Petrov and after him there was Rosberg in a Merc. and Nico is no slouch either.
bottom line, Alonso choked ... just like he pretty much did in Brazil this year: had it not been for Massa incredible pace and devotion (the move on Mark to let Alonso pass was simply genius) and Hulkenberg's blunder we wouldn't be talking about Alonso's WDC near miss. all he had to do was come 3rd and pretty much put himself in cruise&control mode when he should have attacked like hell. up to singapore he was worthy of the title but afterwards he thought that 05-06 strategy could bring him another one just by cruising and taking advantage of others misfortunes.

And Kubica.

Also how did Alonso choke in 2010? Webber was out of the running, took a gamble and Ferrari fell for it. All of Red Bull's birthdays came at once.

And regardless of how many points he lost by in Brazil this year, we would still be calling this season a near miss.

_________________
"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."


#14 for '14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm
Posts: 1738
trindermon wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Repeated the act in Brazil. When has Alonso done that ? How can he be great if he continues to get stuck behind Petrov (almost a non-factor)

I would go as far as saying - Vettel is championship material and Alonso is not. Alonso will have good finishing positions , podiums and large points haul (maybe even greater than Vettel) but will probably not win another title as long as Seb is in the field.


To be fair, Fernando doesnt have 3 cars jumping out his way like wounded animals like seb does.

And for the record, i think Seb is a great driver; bad drivers do not win world championships; and only top tier drivers win3. That said, the stink around the whole TR/MS "ohh look he is comming i best move now" stuff made me turn off in disgust @ the end of this season.

I am not a ferarri fan (far be it in fact), nore a alonso fan. I however now think that redbul as a organisation are rotting our sport. and back on topic, Benson is a idiot, always has been, really not sure how he gets paid.


I agree with you on TRs and Schumi not resisting Vettel and its not good for the sport - especially TRs.

Schumi not chosing to fight Vettel is not that different from Hamilton chosing not to unlap against Alonso once he had unlapped himself from Vettel in Germany. Its just taht some drivers have preferences. TR howeevr is bad for the sport because there is conflict of interest and one team owning 4 cars literally.

I will add however that it didnt make much difference to Vettels results at all. All concerned were simply too slow for Vettel.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 4562
Location: Ireland
F1yer wrote:
So - to be taken seriously , I have to buy the bullshit this guy writes.
Sorry much happier NOT to be taken seriously

Nope I never said that. In fact I don't think I've mentioned that article once in any of my posts.

F1yer wrote:
Well he did not look much better - waving his hands on the slow down lap.

And I m not saying he should deliberately DNF , just that he should have tried more aggressively and not be afraid to crash out. You would be singing his praises if he salvaged that - wouldnt you?

The last thing he could afford was a retirement. He had 3 title rivals in the race. Seb could have broken down on the last lap for all he knew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emNuqd4L2NA - can't ever rule it out!).
He tried a move or two on Petrov and went off the road, a banzai move wasn't worth the risk of crashing out.

_________________
"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."


#14 for '14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm
Posts: 1738
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
So - to be taken seriously , I have to buy the bullshit this guy writes.
Sorry much happier NOT to be taken seriously

Nope I never said that. In fact I don't think I've mentioned that article once in any of my posts.

F1yer wrote:
Well he did not look much better - waving his hands on the slow down lap.

And I m not saying he should deliberately DNF , just that he should have tried more aggressively and not be afraid to crash out. You would be singing his praises if he salvaged that - wouldnt you?

The last thing he could afford was a retirement. He had 3 title rivals in the race. Seb could have broken down on the last lap for all he knew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emNuqd4L2NA - can't ever rule it out!).
He tried a move or two on Petrov and went off the road, a banzai move wasn't worth the risk of crashing out.


Fair enough - but if Vettel had remained where he was forced to be in Abu Dhabi and Brazil waiting for an Alonso DNF - he wouldnt be a champ this year.

Its your attitude towards risk. Alonso , Button and Kimi fall into the risk averse category and I feel that to be truly great - you need to take more than your share. Lewis and Vettel have proved that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:56 am
Posts: 7307
Location: London
Typical Benson bullshit. The BBC are nuts for employing such drivel. As each day passes Benson gets more bitter about Vettel's success and Hamilton's lack of it championship wise.

_________________
1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 Get well soon Schumi.

No one call anyone a moo-pickle...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 95
Location: Milan, Italy
mcdo wrote:
klauss wrote:
F1yer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
No, the point of the article is to make Vettel some lucky little kid who has this great car, and King Alonso has to win races with weights tied to his car.... He can say he thinks Alonso is the best in his mind and that is fine. However, he rattles on with misleading facts like '10 was Alonso's title if not for another Ferrari error(never once mentions Alonso had 40 laps to get by the Renault. I would argue a "great" would have found his way by some how. that would be the very definition of great. He also fails to mention all the problems Vettel had that year with the car.

Remember 2010? And how ridiculously difficult it had become to overtake?
That race appears to be the very reason they made sure DRS was on the cars in 2011.


No body is asking for plenty of overtakes. He just had to take Petrov to make his strategy work.

In fact I m amazed even to this day that Alonso sat there looking at Petrov s a$$ for 40 laps when his first title for Ferrari depended on it. Much better to DNF than to sit there like that.


well actually there was Petrov and after him there was Rosberg in a Merc. and Nico is no slouch either.
bottom line, Alonso choked ... just like he pretty much did in Brazil this year: had it not been for Massa incredible pace and devotion (the move on Mark to let Alonso pass was simply genius) and Hulkenberg's blunder we wouldn't be talking about Alonso's WDC near miss. all he had to do was come 3rd and pretty much put himself in cruise&control mode when he should have attacked like hell. up to singapore he was worthy of the title but afterwards he thought that 05-06 strategy could bring him another one just by cruising and taking advantage of others misfortunes.

And Kubica.

Also how did Alonso choke in 2010? Webber was out of the running, took a gamble and Ferrari fell for it. All of Red Bull's birthdays came at once.

And regardless of how many points he lost by in Brazil this year, we would still be calling this season a near miss.


well, in my book he did choke: he should tried something more than a half aborted run on Petrov. he's Alonso for pete's sake .
and you know it in your heart that despite the whole hype surrounding his season, after Singapore he went in conservative mode. I got plenty of examples. he didn't do anything out of the ordinary, he delivered by keeping out of trouble. that's not to say he wasn't good, it's just that it isn't worth the hype.
up to Monza, yeah I'll give you he was the man of the year (then again he had the fastest car at Monza and possibly Spa) but after that he was just cruise and control. it may have worked in 06 but it didn't work now.
my 2 cents


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:20 am
Posts: 2706
Location: Herts, UK
It's Benson....seriously why are you reading it in the first place? You know it's going to be a pile of fairy cakes. The guy hasnt written a non-bias article in years.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Beleriand_K, Covalent, funkymonkey, Lt. Drebin, Pest44, Peter77, Prema, pubpokerplayer, shoot999, VDV23, WiredKiwi and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group