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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:26 pm 
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Just want some opinions on young Daniel, as I see he was quite quick in some races, favorite was beating schumi home in Suzuka that to me showed that he was capable as I still wasn't sure, what you think? As for vergne out scored Daniel but wasn't as consistent so how you judge that?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Ricciardo was mega quick in Quali. He really was putting that car in places it should not have been during quali but for some reason he was slower than Vergne in race conditions. I followed both quite a lot on live timing and often Vergne was slightly quicker. Daniel is also handicap by his dire starts.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Daniel, In a bad car fluke results matter which Vergne used to his advantage but he is still decent and next year would be a more level field between them having both had decent experience.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Dan's better at getting the car up to speed quicker, i.e. quali, but I think JEV is better at maintaining a decent speed for longer periods, i.e. races. That's the general impression I get, one's consistent, one's sporadic.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Dan has been a very bad starter. He has often thrown away a good starting position because of this. I think he's faster than Vergne, but has to improve on his starts.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Faster? Ricciardo.

Better racer? Vergne pips Dan IMO.

And JEV is definitely better in the wet.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:30 pm 
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He also has been a bit unlucky this season, in Monza his car lost power on the last corner of the last lap, I think he was in 7th (maybe 8th).
Also as mentioned he seems to lose a lot of places on the first lap with his bad starts, and maybe because he is putting the car higher in quali?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Of the two, I thought that Ricciardo started faster but seemed rather erratic. Vergne took his time but towards the end of the season seemed to be steadier of the two. IMO, the Frenchman has the better chance of making the senior team.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:38 pm 
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Ricciardo.
But Vergne brought home more points and had a knack of getting the 'big' points when they were available. 4 P8's to Dan's 0 (though DR was robbed in Korea)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:56 pm 
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I think Vergne edges Ricciardo slightly. Ricciardo is a better qualifier but Vergne makes up for that with better starts.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:23 pm 
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Amon wrote:
I think Vergne edges Ricciardo slightly. Ricciardo is a better qualifier but Vergne makes up for that with better starts.


This, basically. Ricciardo has serious speed in qualifying - I don't think there's any doubting that. However, not only does Vergne have better starts, but he also seems to be very able to keep up good speed in the race. So, who is faster? If you take the fastest lap, I'd say Ricciardo. If you take more long-term speed, I'd say Vergne. If you put the respective drivers' strengths together, you'd have a very good driver - they seem to have speed in different aspects.

I'd like to see them both race in better cars against more experienced drivers as benchmarks to be able to tell more clearly, but we have 2013 at least.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:18 pm 
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Faster: Ricciardo as shown by qualifying this year
Races: Start of the year Vergne was better because of Dan's poor starts but in the second half Ricciardo sorted himself out was generally the quicker in the races. Most of the time though both were on different strategies e.g. Korea, starting behind Vergne due to gearbox penalty yet was ~12 seconds ahead before his brakes gave way which mean JEV scored ahead of him, US first stint running the top 6 with only Button on the same strategy with the fastest car that day. JEV has most of his points during mixed up wet races where anything can happen but he has driven well in those races - especially Malaysia.

In the long run I reckon Ricciardo will win out purely because he has the speed advantage over JEV. Would be nice if TR made a half decent car next year. I don't think points told the full season, JEV was smashed in qualifying and had a hard time getting out of Q3.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:49 pm 
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A bit early to be starting this up again, but some interesting points in a Q & A with Franz Tost. Do you think the ability to develop and be technically proficient might get Dan over the line for a RBR gig?

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews ... 14253.html

Q: If you could combine the best of your two drivers, what qualities would you take from whom?

Daniel is technically versed - he has a huge understanding of technical processes and gives superb feedback. Jean-Eric is more aggressive in the car and also in the race. If you could combine these qualities, yes, then you very likely would have a top driver.

Q: You just said that Jean-Eric is the more aggressive driver and that Daniel is the more technically versed. What is easier to adopt?

Ah, I was saying that Daniel is technically-versed - I didn’t say that he is not aggressive enough. He also has his strong moments in the car. What is easier to adopt? That is a matter of personality - you cannot generalize that.

Q: Okay, what would you say is more important?

Well, you have to be technically versed to be successful in Formula One, but you also have to demonstrate that sort of aggressiveness that helps you overtake a competitor without losing the car. It is a learning process. No driver joins Formula One as a complete driver so this is what I say: to get into Formula One is one thing, to establish yourself in Formula One is another, and to be successful in Formula One a third. The important thing is that a driver has the potential to develop, that he is willing to deal with technical matters, that he is able to learn in the cockpit and cope with the environment around him, and then filter the important things that will bring him forward. There is no universal rule that fits all, so our job at Toro Rosso is to point out crucial things and then it is up to the driver to derive the maximum out of it and use it to his advantage. To learn the crucial things in the shortest possible time, that’s what it takes.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:53 am 
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Ricciardo often edged it into Q2 while Vergne was regularly eliminated in Q1, using up an extra set of tyres compared to Vergne and more often than not ended up starting on the same row of the grid as him anyway, which put him at a slight disadvantage as far as race strategy goes. He was also too polite at the starts, Bahrain being a prime example where he was absolutely mugged on the first lap.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:31 am 
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Franz Tost wrote:
Daniel is technically versed - he has a huge understanding of technical processes and gives superb feedback.

Ah, I was saying that Daniel is technically-versed - I didn't say that he is not aggressive enough. He also has his strong moments in the car.

Well, you have to be technically versed to be successful in Formula One....


I think Franz pretty much said it for me. Dan has a brighter future for 2 reasons: (1) His technical knowledge and intelligence, (2) His outright speed.

I think that Dan showed himself to be just as good a race driver as JEV through the 2nd half of 2012 but had a few episodes of misfortune which accounts for the points difference to a degree. If Dan is lacking in his F1 racecraft a bit (and let's face it, most with his experience are) then that is something that he's only going to get better at, naturally, with time...whereas JEV's lack of outright speed I think will be much more difficult to overcome in the long term.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:25 am 
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Aeson wrote:
Ricciardo often edged it into Q2 while Vergne was regularly eliminated in Q1, using up an extra set of tyres compared to Vergne and more often than not ended up starting on the same row of the grid as him anyway, which put him at a slight disadvantage as far as race strategy goes. He was also too polite at the starts, Bahrain being a prime example where he was absolutely mugged on the first lap.

:thumbup: Pretty much sums it up there, only thing missing is that for most races they had differing strategies making it even harder to judge the two. If I had to pick I would say Ricciardo, reason is in a faster car thats set in the midfield a good qualifying performance could mean the difference between starting 17th or 10th. In 2012 even though Ricciardo out qualified Vergne (and sometimes by quite a margine) it would still only place him right alongside his team-mate, just with less tyres to play with.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:17 am 
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People saying Ricciardo was slower in races are out of their mind. Ricciardo was clearly faster in both.

He also suffered the race handicap of often having a few less sets of fresh tyres due to his qualifying performances.

There is no contest in class of driver between the two of them. When you give Ricciardo a car he can actually qualify somewhere up in the pack the gap will be even larger between them as they will be seperated by several cars at the start of the race, not 1 or 0


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:19 am 
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purchville wrote:
Franz Tost wrote:
Daniel is technically versed - he has a huge understanding of technical processes and gives superb feedback.

Ah, I was saying that Daniel is technically-versed - I didn't say that he is not aggressive enough. He also has his strong moments in the car.

Well, you have to be technically versed to be successful in Formula One....


I think Franz pretty much said it for me. Dan has a brighter future for 2 reasons: (1) His technical knowledge and intelligence, (2) His outright speed.

I think that Dan showed himself to be just as good a race driver as JEV through the 2nd half of 2012 but had a few episodes of misfortune which accounts for the points difference to a degree. If Dan is lacking in his F1 racecraft a bit (and let's face it, most with his experience are) then that is something that he's only going to get better at, naturally, with time...whereas JEV's lack of outright speed I think will be much more difficult to overcome in the long term.


Dan made some particularly impressive overtakes during the season, his race craft was perfect.

His problems more came from team strategy, they would place him on some shockers and despite where he could qualify that car, it was never really a faster car than anything but the new teams, which eventually lead to him not moving forward or even going backwards.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:36 am 
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Let's not get too ahead of ourselves yet. We'll wait and see if Dan still has his qualifying advantage over JEV yet, I expect him to, but until we see then a bit premature to assume he'll be thrashing him yet.

I think the important thing to take from Tost's comments is that Dan is very technically adapt (which is the first time I've heard it from the team) and this goes a long way to developing as a F1 driver.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:35 am 
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Riccardo was instroduced as a next big thing, and he wasn't - and he isn't yet one. Things may change in 2013.

Vergne has a great race pace, and edges Ricciardo in that area IMO. But none of them seem to be that next big thing so far.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:33 am 
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DR is overrated IMO.

What good is it being quick in qualy, if you can't hook up consistent laps in the race.

JEV outscored him last season and that's what counts the most, getting race results. You don't get points for qualifying you know.

Having said that, it will be interesting if DR steps it up in the race.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:50 am 
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james10171 wrote:
DR is overrated IMO.

What good is it being quick in qualy, if you can't hook up consistent laps in the race.

JEV outscored him last season and that's what counts the most, getting race results. You don't get points for qualifying you know.

Having said that, it will be interesting if DR steps it up in the race.


Did you look closely at the live timing last year for Dan? Well I did (for JEV too) and he was by no means a slouch. Both drivers had faster and more consistent periods during the race, but were always on different strategies, Vergne usually being the more aggressive.

Yes Vergne outscored him and had some nice moments and I admit timidness in the first part of the season during racing probably cost Dan, but he also had some bad luck to miss out on points, one of which benefited JEV by moving him up (Korea).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:35 pm 
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It's tiresome reading people slam Daniel's race performances. Yeah he had a couple of poor races early on, but go back and do a count of who outperformed who for each race in the second half of the season and Daniel smashes JEV.

Head to head Daniel beats JEV in 11 of 14 races starting from Montreal. How is that possible if his race pace is so poor? On the contrary those who actually watched the two closely on live timing know that Daniel's race pace was consistently slightly better, his tyre management better, and he made less silly mistakes. In a series of races he repeatedly held off a faster Michael Schumacher to claim points, and drew compliments from Michael for his defensive skills. In Austin he showed some particularly beautiful overtaking moves, I thought.

Which is not to discount JEV. I think they are both very talented. I also think it's hard to judge a great deal from last year as the car was a dog (something the technical staff are now publicly stating). It had a very narrow setup window, which with last years Pirellis meant disaster. So perhaps JEV will smack RIC in 2013, who knows. But there will be less room for excuses from either, as hopefully they have a more complete car.


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