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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:30 pm 
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First heard of this I thought are you serious, but after watching some onboard footage they seem ok just not as quick and the sound is much more high pitch and quieter. How do you think it will go? Or just another a1gp


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:34 pm 
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If it has high caliber drivers and the cars are fast people will watch.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:35 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
If it has high caliber drivers and the cars are fast people will watch.


This. Though it will be hard for some people to get over the sound and speed issues. i.e. me.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:40 pm 
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I'd have tried to force F1 teams to join Formula E to increase the appeal of the sport. Imagine Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull,maybe Lotus against some different names, experts in the field. I'd love to see that!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:43 pm 
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No.




The moment Bernie and all of them realize that auto sports are not green down to the core the better the better off they'll be.

Here's my list as to why it will fail horribly,

1. The experience of watching or attending a race is not just seeing the race unfold, its the sensory bits as well.
2. The drivers won't be very good.
3. Attendance will be minimal
4. Its not like sandal and turtleneck wearing, granola eating, pot smoking environmentalists will decide to put down the picket signs and end a hunger strike to watch a Formula E race. Its not the target market for racing.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:49 pm 
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The cars look pretty crap, like some student project.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Smus wrote:
No.




The moment Bernie and all of them realize that auto sports are not green down to the core the better the better off they'll be.

Here's my list as to why it will fail horribly,

1. The experience of watching or attending a race is not just seeing the race unfold, its the sensory bits as well.
2. The drivers won't be very good.
3. Attendance will be minimal
4. Its not like sandal and turtleneck wearing, granola eating, pot smoking environmentalists will decide to put down the picket signs and end a hunger strike to watch a Formula E race. Its not the target market for racing.


1) If the action is decent, people will watch.
2) There are a number of up and comers/newer drivers who are currently unable to find or have lost drives in F1, also, past racers i.e. Rubens/Villeneuve who do not feel finished. They will think that an official FIA sanctioned event such as this is a better place to be than racing purgatory.
3) They are holding the events on street circuits in big city centres. Qualifying will be held on the same day as the race. The race will be 30ish mins in length. This seems like a decent package to hold in an already populous area....
4) It is if you are, say, any of the car manufacturers in the world... This gives them a chance to enter a FIA sanctioned series that will highly aid/push development of technology that is useful on their road cars whilst providing a public showcase for their business.....

For these reasons, i say that this series is a smart move by the FIA. I also think that in the future, this series will become the 'new' Formula One. Why? Because there is only a limited amount of petrol in the ground...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:17 pm 
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If they're going to succeed they need to go above and beyond to make the races a spectacle. Here are some ideas:

- All night races with cars liveried and lit up like Tron Light Cycles.
- Real time, non-censored in-car commentary
- Real time, non-censored in-car video for all cars simulcast online
- All races broadcast online
- Push-to-pass

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:22 pm 
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racer_nobu wrote:
If they're going to succeed they need to go above and beyond to make the races a spectacle. Here are some ideas:

- All night races with cars liveried and lit up like Tron Light Cycles.
- Real time, non-censored in-car commentary
- Real time, non-censored in-car video for all cars simulcast online
- All races broadcast online
- Push-to-pass



Yeah I'd watch that.
I do agree with Smus to an extent - it's the sound of the engine and what that does to you as the cars scream past.
For this to succeed, it can't emulate F1; it has to be something else/different/more


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:34 pm 
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If I was an Alguersuari or a Kobayashi I'd be very interested in a street race series in these cars.

I really hope they do make this a street circuit series as it would have a much easier time getting folk out to watch.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:25 pm 
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I'm all for it. The mistake people like Smus make is lodging electric cars into the same group as your stereotypical, hippie, tree-hugging, pot smoking liberals. The reality is we can't keep burning crude oil forever and eventually electric cars or possibly hydrogen fuel cells with take over.

Hydrogen isn't there yet but I can see electric cars as being a real alternative to the GP2/3 support races on F1 race days. It would certainly generate interest in the series from the track side viewers. If like me you've spent a morning sat on the outside of Pouhon drinking cans of Jupiler and queuing half an hour for a burger, you will know what I mean.

Support races only tend to last 30 mins to an hour so battery life would be less of an issue. The noise they make is also pretty feeble when compared to an F1 car, so you really aren't missing much with electric motors. If you like noise than much, they could always fit the cars with some kind of air-driven siren like a WW2 Stuker.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Its going to be too expensive. It will cost as much for drivers to get into as GP2/WSR (because the cars are about a million a piece and the teams need four of them) with none of the relevance. Those drivers want to be driving cars similar to F1 and at real tracks where the experience gained will be valuable for the future.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:51 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Its going to be too expensive. It will cost as much for drivers to get into as GP2/WSR (because the cars are about a million a piece and the teams need four of them) with none of the relevance. Those drivers want to be driving cars similar to F1 and at real tracks where the experience gained will be valuable for the future.


Coming back to the point about how low fuel reserves are getting, is this not a good time to start testing the tech? And subsequently putting that technology back into road cars?

It will definitely be expensive to start though, and if this series is to have any longevity they really need to think forward and not cost themselves out in a few years time.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:58 pm 
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Sevenfest wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Its going to be too expensive. It will cost as much for drivers to get into as GP2/WSR (because the cars are about a million a piece and the teams need four of them) with none of the relevance. Those drivers want to be driving cars similar to F1 and at real tracks where the experience gained will be valuable for the future.


Coming back to the point about how low fuel reserves are getting, is this not a good time to start testing the tech? And subsequently putting that technology back into road cars?

It will definitely be expensive to start though, and if this series is to have any longevity they really need to think forward and not cost themselves out in a few years time.

Nothing about the outline for the series says "future" or "resource conscious". The logistics for putting on the events are likely MORE taxing on the environment and resources than regular categories, the cars aren't really using any crazy future tech that we don't already have pretty well sorted, they haven't attracted the attention of the manufacturers who are most likely to exploit the tech, etc. Racecar Engineering referred to the whole idea as something the FIA might have come up with after a few too many drinks, when it sounded great, but instead of realizing the next morning how silly it is, they've gone ahead with it anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:02 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Nothing about the outline for the series says "future" or "resource conscious". The logistics for putting on the events are likely MORE taxing on the environment and resources than regular categories, the cars aren't really using any crazy future tech that we don't already have pretty well sorted, they haven't attracted the attention of the manufacturers who are most likely to exploit the tech, etc. Racecar Engineering referred to the whole idea as something the FIA might have come up with after a few too many drinks, when it sounded great, but instead of realizing the next morning how silly it is, they've gone ahead with it anyway.


My mistake, I always heard it was supposed to be used as some test for future tech - which to me is a great idea. But if this is going to be some half arsed attempt at being green then boo frankly. Could it not grow into that?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Not without interest from major manufacturers. They're the only ones who could afford to have a serious go at it - but why do that in a completely knew, unknown and less than credible series? They're doing it in sports car endurance racing already. They have a good thing going there, why abandon it for something new?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:58 pm 
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If the FIA want to explore new tech in open wheelers, allow experimental stuff alongside the trusty ICE in F1. These are some of the most creative engineering minds in motorsport: let them be useful to the motor industry too!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:12 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Not without interest from major manufacturers. They're the only ones who could afford to have a serious go at it - but why do that in a completely knew, unknown and less than credible series? They're doing it in sports car endurance racing already. They have a good thing going there, why abandon it for something new?



Good point, same to Tufty really. I think I'd just to see the spectacle of something like this if they really embraced the futuristic style. Shanghai already looks like effin' Bladerunner, that would be amazing seeing stylised cars whizz around.

I'll be honest, I just got a semi from the words 'Tron light cycles' really


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:24 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
Its going to be too expensive. It will cost as much for drivers to get into as GP2/WSR (because the cars are about a million a piece and the teams need four of them) with none of the relevance. Those drivers want to be driving cars similar to F1 and at real tracks where the experience gained will be valuable for the future.



Fair point.

But if you are Jaime Alguersuari or Rubens you cant.

I have a dream where Robert Kubica ends up racing here...

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:29 am 
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Sevenfest wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Its going to be too expensive. It will cost as much for drivers to get into as GP2/WSR (because the cars are about a million a piece and the teams need four of them) with none of the relevance. Those drivers want to be driving cars similar to F1 and at real tracks where the experience gained will be valuable for the future.


Coming back to the point about how low fuel reserves are getting, is this not a good time to start testing the tech? And subsequently putting that technology back into road cars?

It will definitely be expensive to start though, and if this series is to have any longevity they really need to think forward and not cost themselves out in a few years time.


I think that they have an inexpensive standard regulation chassis that teams can buy for the first season (at least), which leaves them to develop the powering etc. I plan to watch, and i hope its competitive.

It could either end up with a good highlights package on the bbc as the FIA may want to initially float it as cheaply as possible to create a fan base, or, it could end up immediately with sky as they may be looking for more content to fill up time on their racing channel.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:26 am 
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If they actually stick to the whole "Go nuts build whatever you can within these minimal regulations" thing then Formula E cars will be much faster and agile than F1 Cars in no time.


Also here's the First Video of an Actual Formula E car in action: http://youtu.be/dNpxplfrf1k

For those of you wondering about the noise: http://youtu.be/AqX27cLiczg


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:38 pm 
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All I know is that Lucas di Grassi is developing their car and will likely be a driver in the series... i can imagine a few other "one season wonders" and some random inactive drivers like Frentzen would pop up in this series.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:34 pm 
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REPLICATE wrote:
If they actually stick to the whole "Go nuts build whatever you can within these minimal regulations" thing then Formula E cars will be much faster and agile than F1 Cars in no time.


Also here's the First Video of an Actual Formula E car in action: http://youtu.be/dNpxplfrf1k

For those of you wondering about the noise: http://youtu.be/AqX27cLiczg


The Formula E cars are actually a fair bit louder.

On-board footage (with sound): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDZ4VSFC6z0

Sounds a bit like Mr Blobby lol

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:48 pm 
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Who said racecars powered by combustion engines have to run on petrol? Hydrogen, ethanol, methanol, natural gas etc. etc. Electric race cars are ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:12 am 
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I don't see how it would be "ridiculous". The amount of torque off the line will be incredible! I'm looking forward to it, if only to see how it shapes and improves where electric cars are going on the streets.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:21 am 
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I wasn't aware of Formula E, thanks for bringing it up. I read in wiki that it will be exclusively run on street circuits, don't know how that will pan out. I prefer the traditional purpose built classic circuits and fuel powered cars but inevitably, racing will someday evolve into battery powered cars.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Terence wrote:
I don't see how it would be "ridiculous". The amount of torque off the line will be incredible! I'm looking forward to it, if only to see how it shapes and improves where electric cars are going on the streets.

I agree for the most part, but I see this more as a marketing/awareness exercise, and initially at least the racecar will be driven by the advances being made for the road cars.

Everything I've read so far seems to be pointing toward the first few seasons to be pretty much a spec series, and that it will take a few years before teams start developing their own tech to get a leg up on the competition.

I'm looking forward to this series, and when they've talked about where they want these races to take place Washington D.C. has been brought up, and since I'm only about an hour drive from there I'd surely make it a point to go. Although I think it would work better as a support race for the Indycar race in Baltimore.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:11 pm 
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We will not be running out of oil for some time...at least not here in North America.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-1 ... -says.html


While I can see the reasoning behind the series, as you said RaggedMan, I don't see any major manufacturers hopping on board, companies who could actually use the technology, companies like Ford, Renault, or Toyota.


Another issue that was brought up was the idea that the racing will viewed if the racing is fun to watch. Well I don't know about you but the beauty of F1 and every other motorsport is that the cars can literally drive for hours without refueling. It allows for long stints where it is the tires that fail and not the lack of fuel.

Here's something that will kill it before it gets off the ground, because I wouldn't stand for this as a patron,

www.electricautosport.com wrote:
Then there is the recharging challenge. This is of course the vulnerability of electric vehicles. Each race will consist of about 4 heats per car of 15 minutes each and charging of the cars will be authorized between those heats. Then the FIA states that “Ideally the charging time should not exceed half an hour” I am a big believer in fast charging so it will be great to have Formula E as a promotional platform to showcasing this technology. However, some caution is necessary here, because the whole field will have to recharge between heats. So suppose a vehicle has 60 kWh energy stored. A rough calculation tells us that 24 cars x 120kW is needed to recharge in half an hour. That means that we’ll need a power plug in the pit lane that can handle almost 3 mW. That is about the amount of power that it takes to light up 9 soccer stadiums. It’s doable, but it will take special precautions that should not result in firing up say, 12 massive diesel generators. Also, the fast charging technology is still in it’s early stage of development and it’s rather complicated to get it right. Building a field of fast, safe electric race cars will be quite a challenge already. I predict that for the first three seasons, having them recharge in half an hour will prove to be one step too ambitious.


The emphasis was added by yours truly.


Oh, and the sound of the cars is atrocious...if I want that I'll grab my slot-car track or an RC car and drive it that way. I'm sorry but the whine of an electric motor doesn't get me excited...I don't get pumped up every time I roll my windows up.





Edit: Heres he link to the article I cited. http://www.electricautosport.com/2012/0 ... y-of-cars/


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:17 pm 
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I predict it'll flop. But it's good to see they are trying.

The reason it will flop is publicity. People wont know it even exists without litterally billions spent on advertising it. Without people watching, the sponsors wont pay, the teams cant pay for drivers, thus the whole thing fails.

Thats the only reason F1 succeeds - because the sheer number of people that watch it.

One way to make people watch would be to suck up the costs of producing F1 style coverage as a 100% free global online stream for the 1st season, then get deals sorted out with individual countries on a non-exclusive basis for the next year, so that those countries without a TV network providing coverage can still watch online for free until a provider pops up in their location.

The actual car technology doesn't matter at all - its all about the coverage.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:59 pm 
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RickM wrote:
REPLICATE wrote:
If they actually stick to the whole "Go nuts build whatever you can within these minimal regulations" thing then Formula E cars will be much faster and agile than F1 Cars in no time.


Also here's the First Video of an Actual Formula E car in action: http://youtu.be/dNpxplfrf1k

For those of you wondering about the noise: http://youtu.be/AqX27cLiczg


The Formula E cars are actually a fair bit louder.

On-board footage (with sound): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDZ4VSFC6z0

Sounds a bit like Mr Blobby lol


:D

Maybe the rain leads my mind this way, but if they are racing on streets such as this, the smaller wheels?? and uneven tarmac (compared to the silky tracks we see now) will add an extra edge of 'finding the grip' in a way that hasnt really been an issue in F1 since the early 90's

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:02 am 
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Active aero will be allowed.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:49 am 
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What two major Japanese auto manufacturers dropped out of Formula One? The easy answer is Honda and Toyota. I don't think that anyone can disagree that both of these companies are forward-thinking and continually attempt to expand the technology of their road cars. Yet, both of these companies are exploring electric technology in racing.

Honda has been working on an electric racing motorcycle, and have raced it at the Isle of man.
Image

Toyota have developed a race car, it has raced at Pike's Peak.
Image

They also took this same car and it shattered the lap record for an electric vehicle by posting a lap time of 7mins 47.794secs at the Nürburgring Nordschleife. Here's an onboard video of the run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3v-mb7Uhdk

And whatever the new Formula E cars will look like, don't dismiss them as ugly.

One day fossil fuels will run out or be in short supply. Alternate methods need to be researched now, and manufacturers and the FIA are exploring the future. The series may turn out to be a flop, but it's a small step in what will become a major technology one day.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:38 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
What two major Japanese auto manufacturers dropped out of Formula One? The easy answer is Honda and Toyota. I don't think that anyone can disagree that both of these companies are forward-thinking and continually attempt to expand the technology of their road cars. Yet, both of these companies are exploring electric technology in racing.


Trouble is, McLaren will be providing the motor, drivetrain and electronics. http://www.pitpass.com/47881-McLaren-to-power-Formula-E
Found linked from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIA_Formula_E_Championship

(Only found this out as I was scrabbling around for more info) I'd hoped also for Honda, Toyota and a few others to come through but that's not the case for now...


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:04 am 
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Photos of the Dallara chassis to be used for the first season.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... ar-design/

Doesn't look too bad.


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:21 am 
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i can only see it becoming a support series to F1, or maybe WEC


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:31 am 
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Difficult to know if the series will be any good when we know so little about what cities the races will be in, let alone what the layout of the tracks will be like, if they + the cars promote overtaking, etc. And even then, the series itself could be good with great racing, but without good publicity, a strong driver line-up, good TV deals and so on, being a good series might not translate into being a successful series. I'll probably end up watching it anyway, and if it isn't terrible then that's a nice bonus!

RaggedMan wrote:
Photos of the Dallara chassis to be used for the first season.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... ar-design/

Doesn't look too bad.


Looks a fair bit like their DW12 chassis, which is fine in my eyes as I like them both, but that seems to be an unpopular opinion!

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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:21 am 
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This is Formula E

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013051 ... /130519897

Not this


http://www.treehugger.com/cars/electric ... gland.html


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:51 am 
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I have some power tools I misuse on weekends that sound better.

Too bad they can't get Mura power for the motors.
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100,000+ rpm can produce some great noise. Just need to scale 'em up 24X. :]


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:01 am 
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at the moment they are quite frankly messing the whole thing up... i read elsewhere that the teams will use 2 cars per driver due to range-limitations and that drivers will have to switch between the cars upon pit-stop ... for some not further detailed reason, drivers will have to run about 100 meters from car 1 to car 2 ... to prevent drivers and teams from setting up one car to suit race-pace more than the other, qualifying laps have to be done with both cars and the times will be combined...

sounds like a project run by a junior-highschool-class to me ... for god's sake - if you have to use two cars, use two drivers and make it a team-effort but seriously ... hop out of the car, run to the next car, hop in, WTF?!

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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:19 am 
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egnat69 wrote:
at the moment they are quite frankly messing the whole thing up... i read elsewhere that the teams will use 2 cars per driver due to range-limitations and that drivers will have to switch between the cars upon pit-stop ... for some not further detailed reason, drivers will have to run about 100 meters from car 1 to car 2 ... to prevent drivers and teams from setting up one car to suit race-pace more than the other, qualifying laps have to be done with both cars and the times will be combined...

sounds like a project run by a junior-highschool-class to me ... for god's sake - if you have to use two cars, use two drivers and make it a team-effort but seriously ... hop out of the car, run to the next car, hop in, WTF?!

That sounds a bit fairy cakes. Where abouts did you read that?

I really hope it succeeds, there does need to be a motorsport series focusing on the future like this.

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