planetf1.com

I ask this because when people ask me who my favorite driver is, it's always senna followed by schumi and webber. Stuff schumi they say his a f****n cheat. Although some moves were questionable Monaco 06 and Jerez 97, other than that he was fine to me, he just wanted to win more than anyone else. I see it like this, he started racing with Prost,senna,mansell and piquet, all of which or renowned for bashing and bumping. If schumi drive like they do today back then he would get critisized for being to soft. Keep in mind just an opinion I will totally respect yours.

A wee bit.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

So the OP is just going to ignore Oz '94?!

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Multi 21 or Catch 22?!

It ain't hating just 'cause it's not love

I remember when Schumi deliberately nudged Villenueve and got disqualified from the Championship, he said afterwards that he grew up with Senns, Prost, Mansell etc where this kind of thing happened all of the time and was accepted

Rules and times had changed I guess by then, but no one ever called Prost, Mansell, Senna etc cheats

Schumachers car conveniently stopped at Monaco too, he pushed the boundaries to breaking point but i think there were two sides to him one the one hand pure genius and on the other a desperate man who would do anything to win. Its easier to list more fantastic drives he did rather than times he cheated i suppose, although i do think Hungary with barrichello was out of order and should have been banned for several races.

Dirty maybe, ruthless and aggressive yes! I think his good calls and strategy is what made him brilliant in his prime years and of course his driving. Look at Imola 2000, Mika was leading for 4 seconds before he pitted but Michael went on to do some sprint laps to close the gap. When he pitted and came out what dayya know, he got a 2 second gap between him and Mika hakinnen :O!

I think I know why ppl hate him so much, because his supposed to be banned from F1 if he was he wouldn't have achieved that other 5 wdcs :X jealousy I guess..

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Latest F1 vid I made http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C4qJXyRLDg&feature=youtu.be

I prefer to look at it as ruthless Most top drivers are like that.

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Not always obviously, and he gave some truly great drives, but he was certainly capable of cheating or dirty driving, as Adelaide '94, Jerez '97 and Monaco '06 go to prove.

But he's not the first or the last to try these kinds of things so there's little point in getting too hung up about it. Aside from '94 they were all dealt with appropriately at the time.

Yes, he most certainly was, very dirty. He's still one of the greatest the sport's ever seen.

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"you can never be too paranoid"

That last bit does not make sense. Team orders was legal back then, Ferrari did it, Mclaren did it as well as any team on the grid if there was something to gain from it. It is the team that give out these orders and Hungary was no exeption. I don't agree with the order itself but Schumacher was not to blame.

i meant Hungary 2010 i think was it? I cant remember now but anyway when he tried to force RB into the wall

Ok, I follow you now. However the incident with Barrichello was a dangerous one but it was not entirely Schumachers fault. Schumacher claimed the inside line and 19 out of twenty drivers would have chosen the outside but Barrichelleo decided to squeeze himself through on the inside anyway. Schumacher should have yield earlier yes but Barrichello with the options made a dangerous move.

Schui only chose a line after Barri was committed.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

He was one of the dirtiest if not THE dirtiest.

Schumacher indeed started racing in F1 in the era you mention. But apart from Senna, these drivers were hard, yet not dirty. At least not on track.
Think back for a minute to Monaco 2006, and the reaction by Keke Rosberg to Schumacher's latest dirty move. Keke later apologized for what he said, which is more than can be said for Schumacher. He only ever apologized when forced to, which shows just how much he understood about sporting behaviour.

When he deliberately drove into the man who was going to win the championship in 1994, after he had put himself out of contention through hitting the wall, he threw his reputation into the gutter. And since he never apologized for that move, indeed he tried the same dirty trick again three years later, that's where his reputation still is. At least until he hands that title to its rightful owner.

Had Schumacher relied on his sporting and driving talent, which is humblingly huge, he would have been alongside Fangio, Clark, Prost and a few others. But he didn't, and showed even as late as 2010 in just how much danger he was willing to put a fellow driver who dared to overtake him. So there it is.

RacingFan1 said it shorter than I did, but he's spot on. And that is very sad indeed.

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota

Yes

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In all honesty, that is not quite true. Schumacher started to move to the inside, but slowly enough to entice Barrichello to choose the inside anyway. What Schumacher did wrong, was not to stop his movement towards the wall once Barrichello was alongside. From what he said afterwards, it is sadly clear he did it on purpose. Just like all those other times.

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota

To make all his career in general dirty does not stand. There were some incidents over the years some with more importance, some with less.
Schumacher move on Barrichello was slow not hard fast move, Barrichello had the brake pedal at his disposal and the outside line to try.
Schumacher is as he describe himself a great thinker ahead in the race.
He most like thought about two option - 1.Barrichello will try on outside because he knows he MS i don't give up the inside never easy, 2. Barrichello will cancel a move becoming to dangerous.
Well Barrichello was like a bull trying to hammer his way.
Well here there some "men" who assums the risk of a potential crash or some cry babys Alonso, Barrichello and others.

Just watch Kimi a real man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX2TAk-mgh0

Just watch from 1:42 also this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I4AXQ8s2yg
Anything dirty?
I say now, just hard racing.

I take the point that Prost and Piquet, certainly, were hard but fair racers (anyone who brings up Suzuka 1989 for Prost either doesn't know much about the back story or has spent too much time watching the Senna move). But Mansell, whilst never approaching the cynicism of Senna and Schumacher, could be pretty rough. He basically invented the 'chop start' from pole (see Silverstone 1990, Estoril 1990 and Hockenheim 1991 amongst others). Prost was by most accounts a political animal and Piquet's verbal assaults on Senna and Mansell in 1988 were disgraceful. Although in these two latter cases there was no on-track dangers involved, it did help form a culture of 'devil-take-the-hindmost' that existed in F1 as the 1980s turned into the 1990s.

Indeed I would say this period (c. 1989-1992) was probably the dirtiest in terms of on-track behaviour I have witnessed. Aside from the four names mentioned do not forget the other two drivers, Gerhard Berger and Riccardo Patrese, who were most frequently at the front during this period. Despite by all accounts being a top bloke Berger had his fair share of stupid moments (e.g. Imola 1990 and Hungaroring 1990) and Patrese, though by the end of his career widely liked, had long had a notorious reputation as an on-track hothead. It was notable that among the many former drivers who denounced Schumacher for Hungary 1990 Berger was alone in insisting that nobody would have cared if that had happened in his day (an exagerration perhaps, but you get his point) and it should also be noted that Patrese defended Schumacher for Monaco 2006.

This was the environment Schumacher came into in the early 1990s and one should note that the only other young driver to come into the sport and immediately compete at the front during this period was Jean Alesi. I mention this because, aside from Senna, Schumacher and some blatant incompetents (e.g. Yuji Ide), Alesi is probably the most reckless driver I have seen on a Formula 1 race track (take a look at his blatant chops on Brundle at Jerez 1989 and Schumacher at Adelaide 1995 as examples). I would therefore say that the culture of the sport at the front end can have a major impact on the outlook of the drivers coming into the sport anew and that this impact was, during the period Schumacher and Alesi entered the sport, almost wholly negative.

This does not absolve Schumacher of his sins on the racetrack and I am certainly not one of the liberal types who says 'he may be a murderer, but you should remember he was brought up on a council estate and had a difficult upbringing' as if it somehow excuses it. But it does help to partially explain why Schumacher drove the way he did.

Senna - yes, frequently. Prost - sometimes. Mansell - never in my recollection did he deliberately hit someone, not even a possible.

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Me Like - Button, Hamilton, Webber, Rosberg
Over rated, over paid - Räikkönen, Alonso, Vettel. Schumacher
Disappointing - Massa, Kobayashi
I may be wrong about - Alonso

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2YmTUEIens#

Schumacher doesn't pick until Barri moves first.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Yes, there are numerous incidents when he was guilty of "dirty driving". And he did turn in to Villeneuve.

That doesn't make him a bad man, he was just completely ruthless and determined to the Nth degree. For him, that was necessary for success, to give nothing and take as much as possible.

He certainly had his dirty moments. But it was not that he was dirty like every race. He didn't deserve the 1994 WDC however.

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F1 fan since 1989

Yes he is/was. IMO his ruthlesness was part of his succes. But in 20 years time, hit dirty moments will not be remembered. Senna was a dirty driver too, yet that's not what we remember him for.
Schumacher's hardest critics will be grumpy old men at that time, and all that's left is 7 WDC and 91 race wins. IMO all talk of tarnished legacy and so on will not cling on, at least that's not what history has shown so far

"Schumacher wasn't a dirty driver just because of a few notable incidents. Here are a few notable incidents that prove he wasn't a dirty driver" ?

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His achievements and influence was amazing.

But to anyone arguing that he was not a dirty driver please PM me for my address so you can send me some of your pills

Schumacher was undoubtedly one of the most talented drivers to come into F1 and has got the results to show. I would not label him a dirty driver as such but he certainly had a dirty streak in his sporting personality which showed up more than once. The shunts on Hill and Villenueve were the more obvious ones while the Monaco 2006 incident was another.

In his defence though, Schumacher's career straddled the 'old' and the 'new', which must have affected his outlook. He probably entered motor racing when a lot of people used dirty tricks to gain advantages but the regulations were becoming more stringent by the time he started tasting success. However, that is only an explanation and not an excuse for his misdemeanours on track.

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Vettel / Raikkonen / Button

Shuey was a pretty dirty driver. The best was that he got caught a number of times. It must have been very painful each time.

Funniest of them all. Parking in Monaco or trying to crash out Villneuve or when Montoya called him stupid on the pressconference

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Minds are like parachutes, they work best when they are open

Goodness Biffa, I was just drinking when I read that! Have some consideration for my screen, will you?

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota

Sorry about that Fiki - Actually that reminds me, I believe it is possible to purchase a PC screen/keyboard guard to protect against unwanted fluids (ahem), which might be pretty handy for some posters on the official threads? Maybe I'll try and find a link

eah

Fixed, but yeah, that's how I look at it

Yes. Yes he was.

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Come on FISKI how can you say that dont you remember senna and Prost at Suzuka, the following yeah senna drives straight into Prost and open admitted to doing it on purpose and not to mention the classic fight between Elio salazzar and Nelson piquet. I think schumi was totally in line majority of the time just pushed it to the limits. What he does today was totally normal back then and as for schumi and barrichello, your allowed to move across to defend and move back again to me he did that but like true shumi fashion pushes it to the edge. IMO with the experience barrichello had ,he put himself in that situation , y not go down the outside he would've gone straight of at turn one with that line anyway.

He pushed the limits at times that is for sure.

However if we say that Schumi was a dirty driver then we are automatically declaring Senna as a dirty driver as he was much worse.

Can't have it both ways.

Absolutely senna was more dirt but arnt all the greats, I mean to a point it shows they'll do what ever it takes to get advantage, as I believe vettel will turn that way as well if his dominance is truly threaded. Alonso did in Hungary 2007 with Hamilton, held him up on purpose in pit lane as he felt Lewis held him up on the circuit. All greats will push the limits and often go over.

Schumacher apologized after watching the video of the move and said he did not realize from his car how close it was.

I prefer to look at sport in general rather than F1 alone. If a person who has been in a pressure cooker environment for a couple of decades makes only three major errors, I think it's understandable even if it offends our sense of right and wrong. In addition, IMO Adelaide and Jerez are arguably nothing more than acts of desperation/ failure of intellect rather than proof of malevolence. I can think of several stupid and/or dangerous moves made by drivers not named Maldonado or Grosjean which largely did not attract this degree of opprobrium. Monaco puzzles me, mostly because Schumacher's reaction did not seem to be that of a guilty man.

You can also look at the character of the man outside of these three specific incidents. I don't see evidence of malicious or vile behavior, and you can be sure the media would have gotten hold of it if it was there.

You can also compare him to top sportsmen in other disciplines, and he comes out ahead of many if not all. As I have said before, if F1 was a soccer game, his fouls would have attracted a penalty kick or perhaps a red card. They would have definitely not resulted in the vacation of a season's results or life long stigma.

Yes, Schumi apologised for the Barri incident when he saw the footage and realised just how close Barri was to the wall, but I don't agree that the Hill and Villeneuve incidents were a "failure of intellect". Personally, I think he acted instinctively as he knew that he would lose the WDCs otherwise.

He also looked extremely guilty IMO, after Monaco '06. If he hadn't looked so guilty, I would have given him the benefit of the doubt! But again, I think it was his instinctive intellect that took over.

But I do agree that its ridiculous to mark him as a 'dirty driver' for 3/4 incidents over nearly 2 decades of F1 racing!

Liegate and Crashgate were equally as bad (if not worse...) IMO, but we don't see Lewis and Alonso being labelled 'dirty drivers' - even though times have changed since the early '90s and 'win at any cost' is far less acceptable.

Re Hill and Villeneuve, you are of course right in that they were instinctive reactions. The question is why - stupidity ("failure of intellect" was my euphemism) or desperation or malevolent intent? I prefer to think it wasn't the latter.

Re Monaco, I guess I didn't get that vibe but I respect your opinion. I don't think it was an act of instinct or desperation. So, either it was premeditated in which case he was completely guilty, or it was just a driving error. If he was guilty, he certainly chose a very imaginative way to go about it with no precedent whatsoever. That itself makes me question the general conclusion. However, as I said, I understand where you're coming from.

Even if he is guilty of these three offences, I totally agree that it is ludicrous the way some people rip him.

I suppose this is aimed at me, Chriso? I don't recall saying I don't remember Senna and Prost at Suzuka; in fact I watched those incidents live. For what it is worth, I make a clear distinction between what happened in 1989 and 1990. I clearly remember that one of the reasons for Senna's disqualification was the way he had been driving, as if the seas had to part before him. I'm not saying Prost could not have let him past at the chicane, but it is clear he wanted to make Senna understand that enough was enough. (For what it is worth, that is exactly what some people advised Montoya to do to Schumacher. Because Schumacher was a dirty driver.)

As for Salazar and Piquet having that punch up, I don't think you clearly understand what happened there. Salazar made a mistake, and one that was costly to his friend Piquet. But Salazar was not a dirty driver, and neither was Piquet.
Just to put that in perspective; Schumacher's mistake at Adelaide wasn't ramming Hill; it was putting his car into the wall before ramming Hill. Ramming Hill was done on purpose, hence not a mistake.

It just occurs to me now that may be the reason why some make a distinction between Adelaide and Jerez. At Jerez, he was simply losing. At Adelaide, he threw it away.

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota

I don't believe that conditional apologies are worth very much, especially after he first came very close to insulting Barrichello.

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85828

In his first reaction, he didn't even seem to be aware that the track stops at the white line. Yet he forced his attacker completely beyond the white lines, after he had already been alongside his car, before the attackers right wheels even touched the white lines.

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota