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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Bigbazz wrote:
Vettel is less tempermental, makes less mistakes and is always quick. I don't think he is faster than Hamilton, but he's definitely more consistantly fast. Vettel is a safer bet to put in your car, he's clearly very intelligent, doesn't make many mistakes and will do what is needed to win. And all that said he's still only at the age where many drivers are just getting into the sport and finding their feet.

3 World titles and all, the people who still doubt the quality of Vettel are just people who dislike him and are in denial. I like Hamilton and think he is incredible in terms of raw pace, but I don't think he has the mental capacity that Vettel has.

If you watched this season, Hamilton was the driver with the least mistakes on track, and drove quite smart at some races to keep faster cars behind.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:14 am 
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Haribo wrote:
Bigbazz wrote:
Vettel is less tempermental, makes less mistakes and is always quick. I don't think he is faster than Hamilton, but he's definitely more consistantly fast. Vettel is a safer bet to put in your car, he's clearly very intelligent, doesn't make many mistakes and will do what is needed to win. And all that said he's still only at the age where many drivers are just getting into the sport and finding their feet.

3 World titles and all, the people who still doubt the quality of Vettel are just people who dislike him and are in denial. I like Hamilton and think he is incredible in terms of raw pace, but I don't think he has the mental capacity that Vettel has.

If you watched this season, Hamilton was the driver with the least mistakes on track, and drove quite smart at some races to keep faster cars behind.



another person pretending 2011 didnt exist


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:14 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Bigbazz wrote:
Vettel is less tempermental, makes less mistakes and is always quick. I don't think he is faster than Hamilton, but he's definitely more consistantly fast. Vettel is a safer bet to put in your car, he's clearly very intelligent, doesn't make many mistakes and will do what is needed to win. And all that said he's still only at the age where many drivers are just getting into the sport and finding their feet.

3 World titles and all, the people who still doubt the quality of Vettel are just people who dislike him and are in denial. I like Hamilton and think he is incredible in terms of raw pace, but I don't think he has the mental capacity that Vettel has.

If you watched this season, Hamilton was the driver with the least mistakes on track, and drove quite smart at some races to keep faster cars behind.



another person pretending 2011 didnt exist


And another person using just 2011 to judge the rest of Lewis' career and his driving.

Seriously he learned from his mistakes in 2011 and drove brilliantly in 2012 without a single on-track penalty and one incident were a minute proportion of the blame can be laid on LH's head (Excluding Hulkenberg in Brazil, seeing as that was solely his fault). If you cannot accept that then you have a severe case of denial.

At least I can accept Seb is a phenomenal driver and deserves the accolades and applause he gets.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:41 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Bigbazz wrote:
Vettel is less tempermental, makes less mistakes and is always quick. I don't think he is faster than Hamilton, but he's definitely more consistantly fast. Vettel is a safer bet to put in your car, he's clearly very intelligent, doesn't make many mistakes and will do what is needed to win. And all that said he's still only at the age where many drivers are just getting into the sport and finding their feet.

3 World titles and all, the people who still doubt the quality of Vettel are just people who dislike him and are in denial. I like Hamilton and think he is incredible in terms of raw pace, but I don't think he has the mental capacity that Vettel has.

If you watched this season, Hamilton was the driver with the least mistakes on track, and drove quite smart at some races to keep faster cars behind.



another person pretending 2011 didnt exist

2007-Probably the greatest rookie season ever. Stunning. A computer glitch away from the title. A 2-time world champion teammate beaten.
2008-Won the title. Nothing more needs to be said.
2009-Put some great drives in while in a crappy car and helped develop it into a race winner. Scored the most points over the second half of the season when he had a car that could peform.
2010-Stayed in the title fight until the final race despite not having the best car
2011-Granted
2012-Should/Could have won the title if the team hadn't let him down.

One bad season out of six and you're judging him on that? Get real...

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:48 pm 
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Fat Albert gave the pot a good stir. Mixed in with a bit of misquoting and we are away...

Concerning the cars in 2007 and 2008: my calcs agree with Diablof1's statement (above): in 2007 the McLaren-Mercedes and Ferrari were equal, driver-neutral; in 2008 the Ferrari was faster than the McLaren.

Return to the OP topic: Hamilton is emotional, but is unsurpassed in his handling and feel for a car and for sheer speed. Rindt and Peterson were similar, but Jackie Stewart and Mario Andretti were slightly better overall/allround. Same today with Alonso over Hamilton and Vettel.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:37 pm 
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2007-probably the biggest ever choke in any season
2008-Won the title with equal best car and massively favoured by his team Nothing more needs to be said.
2009-showed he is noything without a decent car
2010-fast car failed again
2011-worst season by any top driver in history
2012-Should have won the title but didn't again.

facts:
1 title in 6 years of driving for a top team
only beaten 1 teammate on points ( equal with alonso, lost to button)

peace


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:12 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
2007-probably the biggest ever choke in any season
2008-Won the title with equal best car and massively favoured by his team Nothing more needs to be said.
2009-showed he is noything without a decent car
2010-fast car failed again
2011-worst season by any top driver in history
2012-Should have won the title but didn't again.

facts:
1 title in 6 years of driving for a top team
only beaten 1 teammate on points ( equal with alonso, lost to button)

peace


Knew it wouldn't be too long until you showed your true colours...

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:24 pm 
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OK, this seems to have become a haven for trolls, and the discussion is starting to get more personal. I'm removing no more posts, just locking if I get one more report from this thread.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:10 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
2007-probably the biggest ever choke in any season
2008-Won the title with equal best car and massively favoured by his team Nothing more needs to be said.
2009-showed he is noything without a decent car
2010-fast car failed again
2011-worst season by any top driver in history
2012-Should have won the title but didn't again.

facts:
1 title in 6 years of driving for a top team
only beaten 1 teammate on points ( equal with alonso, lost to button)

peace

The fact that you think that '07 was "a choke" shows just how much you really know..

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:56 am 
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I am surprised the title of this thread wasn't changed as it bears no relation to the link it purports to "quote" from
It is simply sensationalist in this boring in-between season period, and is designed to bring out in force the rabid Hamilton haters and the avid defenders of Lewis . However !
After much thought I throw myself into the deep end of this five page thread , not quite frothing rabidly, but with brow creased and lips pursed 😾

The chairman of Ferrari spoke of the only two drivers on the current grid (he) thinks would be PERFECT for Ferrari, Vettel aged 25 and Hamilton aged 27 he says he would choose Vettel because he is younger IF Alonso left, he considers Alonso aged 31 better than both !
This reasoning means whole comment should be taken with a pinch of salt .

I agree with him that Vettel is more suited to Ferrari than Lewis but not because he is a better driver , Vettel is not better than Hamilton by any stretch of the imagination .

Not because Vettel is not presumptuous and arrogant , he most certainly is .
and not because Vettel is a great team player , he is not it is Webber's no nonsense no drama character that gives the impression of calmness on the surface .

Simply because Vettel's steely calculating informed robotic style is what is needed to counteract the haphazard brilliance that is Ferrari . Schumacher-esque

Whereas Hamiltons raw,edgy,passionate ,never give up,do or die,win or Dnf rain or shine (yes yes ok I like him) is more suited to the structured calming guidance of Maclaren or Mercedes even Red Bull with their work hard by any means necessary we must win balanced with party hard could also work .

Fact is though Ferrari and Lewis keep flirting with each other but they both know the Tifosi are not ready to accept him and maybe never will , but I can't help thinking that perhaps some of Alonso's comments and behaviour this and last year are maybe trying to make the path smoother For the future . Just a thought .
One thing I really gather from this article is none of the two will come whilst Alonso is there .


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:20 pm 
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Everything in the post above is a reflection of media-promoted exaggerated stereotypes, which is both funny and interesting. Funny because most of it is crazy (haphazard brilliance? win or dnf? robotic style? tifosi acceptance? party hard?), interesting because it shows what happens when you buy into the hype.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Qiwater wrote:
I am surprised the title of this thread wasn't changed as it bears no relation to the link it purports to "quote" from
It is simply sensationalist in this boring in-between season period, and is designed to bring out in force the rabid Hamilton haters and the avid defenders of Lewis . However !
After much thought I throw myself into the deep end of this five page thread , not quite frothing rabidly, but with brow creased and lips pursed 😾

The chairman of Ferrari spoke of the only two drivers on the current grid (he) thinks would be PERFECT for Ferrari, Vettel aged 25 and Hamilton aged 27 he says he would choose Vettel because he is younger IF Alonso left, he considers Alonso aged 31 better than both !
This reasoning means whole comment should be taken with a pinch of salt .

I agree with him that Vettel is more suited to Ferrari than Lewis but not because he is a better driver , Vettel is not better than Hamilton by any stretch of the imagination .

Not because Vettel is not presumptuous and arrogant , he most certainly is .
and not because Vettel is a great team player , he is not it is Webber's no nonsense no drama character that gives the impression of calmness on the surface .

Simply because Vettel's steely calculating informed robotic style is what is needed to counteract the haphazard brilliance that is Ferrari . Schumacher-esque

Whereas Hamiltons raw,edgy,passionate ,never give up,do or die,win or Dnf rain or shine (yes yes ok I like him) is more suited to the structured calming guidance of Maclaren or Mercedes even Red Bull with their work hard by any means necessary we must win balanced with party hard could also work .

Fact is though Ferrari and Lewis keep flirting with each other but they both know the Tifosi are not ready to accept him and maybe never will , but I can't help thinking that perhaps some of Alonso's comments and behaviour this and last year are maybe trying to make the path smoother For the future . Just a thought .
One thing I really gather from this article is none of the two will come whilst Alonso is there .


:lol:

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Last edited by diablof1 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
2007-probably the biggest ever choke in any season
2008-Won the title with equal best car and massively favoured by his team Nothing more needs to be said.
2009-showed he is noything without a decent car
2010-fast car failed again
2011-worst season by any top driver in history
2012-Should have won the title but didn't again.
facts:
1 title in 6 years of driving for a top team
only beaten 1 teammate on points ( equal with alonso, lost to button)

peace


:uhoh:
:uhoh: :uhoh:
:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Qiwater wrote:
Not because Vettel is not presumptuous and arrogant , he most certainly is .
and not because Vettel is a great team player , he is not


And you would know this because, what? Some radio blurbs you hear during GP's and that's it?
You should follow F1 more closesly if this is what you make of it - Vettel is pretty much known for being down to earth (as opposed to being arrogant) and working with the team (so being a team player).

He is level headed and keeps focusing on racing and getting the job done. I would argue Hamilton being more susceptible to distractions.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:02 pm 
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mds wrote:
Qiwater wrote:
Not because Vettel is not presumptuous and arrogant , he most certainly is .
and not because Vettel is a great team player , he is not


And you would know this because, what? Some radio blurbs you hear during GP's and that's it?
You should follow F1 more closesly if this is what you make of it - Vettel is pretty much known for being down to earth (as opposed to being arrogant) and working with the team (so being a team player).

He is level headed and keeps focusing on racing and getting the job done. I would argue Hamilton being more susceptible to distractions.

I think all drivers are arrogant and not good team players to a certain extent.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Didn't Seb turn down some rather lucrative Personal Sponsorship to avoid the distraction?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
mds wrote:
Qiwater wrote:
Not because Vettel is not presumptuous and arrogant , he most certainly is .
and not because Vettel is a great team player , he is not


And you would know this because, what? Some radio blurbs you hear during GP's and that's it?
You should follow F1 more closesly if this is what you make of it - Vettel is pretty much known for being down to earth (as opposed to being arrogant) and working with the team (so being a team player).

He is level headed and keeps focusing on racing and getting the job done. I would argue Hamilton being more susceptible to distractions.

I think all drivers are arrogant and not good team players to a certain extent.


I think we should separate on-track and off-track behaviour. When racing, any top driver should be opportunistic and even arrogant. That's logical and in my view necessary.

But out of the car, anything I said above stands. He IS known for being down to earth, friendly to anyone, working with the mechanics, staying up with them, talking with them, etc.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
mds wrote:
Qiwater wrote:
Not because Vettel is not presumptuous and arrogant , he most certainly is .
and not because Vettel is a great team player , he is not


And you would know this because, what? Some radio blurbs you hear during GP's and that's it?
You should follow F1 more closesly if this is what you make of it - Vettel is pretty much known for being down to earth (as opposed to being arrogant) and working with the team (so being a team player).

He is level headed and keeps focusing on racing and getting the job done. I would argue Hamilton being more susceptible to distractions.

I think all drivers are arrogant and not good team players to a certain extent.


I agree , not all but most and often confidence and self belief is mistaken ( deliberately or foolishly ) for arrogance .


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:34 pm 
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mds wrote:
Qiwater wrote:
Not because Vettel is not presumptuous and arrogant , he most certainly is .
and not because Vettel is a great team player , he is not


And you would know this because, what? Some radio blurbs you hear during GP's and that's it?
You should follow F1 more closesly if this is what you make of it - Vettel is pretty much known for being down to earth (as opposed to being arrogant) and working with the team (so being a team player).

He is level headed and keeps focusing on racing and getting the job done. I would argue Hamilton being more susceptible to distractions.


I have seen far more signs of Vettel being arrogant and presumptuous than even Alonso who is master of that art but if one is then all three are but because they have the same basic instincts in them which is what makes them the top drivers in F1 today . Anyone looking for sweet natured personalities over talent or fooled by those who act for the camera would be more comfortable watching so called phone in "talent" shows and leave F1 in its testosterone heightened state .


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:51 pm 
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None of what you're saying is relevant to what I said regarding to those who actually know him.
I really think you should separate on- and offtrack.

You also didn't answer about Vettel not being a good team player.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:11 pm 
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Opinion from someone a bit more neutral than either of you...

Pedrosa_4_eva wrote:
2007-Probably the greatest rookie season ever. Stunning. A computer glitch away from the title. A 2-time world champion teammate beaten.
2008-Won the title. Nothing more needs to be said.
2009-Put some great drives in while in a crappy car and helped develop it into a race winner. Scored the most points over the second half of the season when he had a car that could peform.
2010-Stayed in the title fight until the final race despite not having the best car
2011-Granted
2012-Should/Could have won the title if the team hadn't let him down.

One bad season out of six and you're judging him on that? Get real...


2007 - Agree for the most part. His first half was truly epic for a rookie, and he continued that form most of the way until a strategic error by he and the team, and a car issue.

2008- Title or not, his 2008 is littered with mistakes if you look. At least four serious driver errors. Even with the Spa penalty which I did not agree with, the title should have been wrapped up before Brazil by Lewis given his team support and quality of his car. And in Brazil, it was clear that he nearly choked under the pressure while Massa absolutely delivered.

2009 - Lewis' colors showed a bit with his team. Much like Vettel, he has a bit of a hot head and got frustrated pretty significantly that year. I don't recall any significant errors on his part, but I'd have to go back and look to verify. Think his driving was pretty spot on that year.

2010 - Was decent given his machinery which was indeed competitive. But he had several accidents with other cars - Massa and Webber come to mind. Some of these were in key moments later in the season as the title fight was becoming more clear.

2011 - Pretty awful from a driver of his caliber. Has there been a driver with a high as high as Lewis's and a low as low as his 2011 season in terms of driver mistakes?

2012 - Awesome driving by Lewis and purely robbed of a title opportunity by team errors and car reliability. Period. Only real mistakes IMO was not letting Pastor to overtake him in Valencia and possibly tapping the wall in Singapore qualifying IF that led to his failure there. Beyond that, can't really say he put a foot wrong.

So, yes... I feel he has a right to take Lewis's whole body of work and come to his conclusion. He's made some serious errors in his time (like any driver). And that's where this comes from. If you look, it seems erratic. 2007 is great. 2008 is off despite a title. 2009 is good despite the car. 2010 was good minus a few errors on his part. 2011 was awful. 2012 was great. Lewis fluctuates a lot season to season.

Vettelmessi wrote:
2007-probably the biggest ever choke in any season
2008-Won the title with equal best car and massively favoured by his team Nothing more needs to be said.
2009-showed he is noything without a decent car
2010-fast car failed again
2011-worst season by any top driver in history
2012-Should have won the title but didn't again.


2007 - Depending what you want to believe and take from media reports, it was a choke in Brazil or simply electrical error (possibly due to Lewis going off track racing Alonso). Driver error in either case, but I don't consider racing Alonso and making an error a serious sin in your rookie season.

2008 - McLaren wasn't quite up to spec with the Ferrari so Kimi or Massa SHOULD have won the 2008 title. 2008 was definitely not Lewis's best year though in the same way people speak of Kimi's 2007 title season.

2009 - Errr... are you serious? Can't you say the same for Vettel in the Toro Rosso? Or any driver? An odd win is possible but you won't be contending for a championship for sure.

2010 - Car was fast. Lewis did make mistakes when it started to matter but did close out decently. I wouldn't call it failing but simply being outbeaten by a few others. Not like he did poorly in the last race like Webber and Alonso.

2011 - Yeaaaa... I may have to agree.

2012 - Saying he should have won the title but didn't again is like saying Seb should have won the title sooner in 2010 than he had but didn't. The driver isn't always accountable for team errors and car reliability. Lewis had A LOT of potential points erased this year due to car failure. You can't let that detract from his splendid driving. He was very fast and basically error free. Same can be said for Alonso and Vettel.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Honda Quick wrote:
Opinion from someone a bit more neutral than either of you...

Pedrosa_4_eva wrote:
2007-Probably the greatest rookie season ever. Stunning. A computer glitch away from the title. A 2-time world champion teammate beaten.
2008-Won the title. Nothing more needs to be said.
2009-Put some great drives in while in a crappy car and helped develop it into a race winner. Scored the most points over the second half of the season when he had a car that could peform.
2010-Stayed in the title fight until the final race despite not having the best car
2011-Granted
2012-Should/Could have won the title if the team hadn't let him down.

One bad season out of six and you're judging him on that? Get real...


2007 - Agree for the most part. His first half was truly epic for a rookie, and he continued that form most of the way until a strategic error by he and the team, and a car issue.

2008- Title or not, his 2008 is littered with mistakes if you look. At least four serious driver errors. Even with the Spa penalty which I did not agree with, the title should have been wrapped up before Brazil by Lewis given his team support and quality of his car. And in Brazil, it was clear that he nearly choked under the pressure while Massa absolutely delivered.

2009 - Lewis' colors showed a bit with his team. Much like Vettel, he has a bit of a hot head and got frustrated pretty significantly that year. I don't recall any significant errors on his part, but I'd have to go back and look to verify. Think his driving was pretty spot on that year.

2010 - Was decent given his machinery which was indeed competitive. But he had several accidents with other cars - Massa and Webber come to mind. Some of these were in key moments later in the season as the title fight was becoming more clear.

2011 - Pretty awful from a driver of his caliber. Has there been a driver with a high as high as Lewis's and a low as low as his 2011 season in terms of driver mistakes?

2012 - Awesome driving by Lewis and purely robbed of a title opportunity by team errors and car reliability. Period. Only real mistakes IMO was not letting Pastor to overtake him in Valencia and possibly tapping the wall in Singapore qualifying IF that led to his failure there. Beyond that, can't really say he put a foot wrong.

So, yes... I feel he has a right to take Lewis's whole body of work and come to his conclusion. He's made some serious errors in his time (like any driver). And that's where this comes from. If you look, it seems erratic. 2007 is great. 2008 is off despite a title. 2009 is good despite the car. 2010 was good minus a few errors on his part. 2011 was awful. 2012 was great. Lewis fluctuates a lot season to season.

Vettelmessi wrote:
2007-probably the biggest ever choke in any season
2008-Won the title with equal best car and massively favoured by his team Nothing more needs to be said.
2009-showed he is noything without a decent car
2010-fast car failed again
2011-worst season by any top driver in history
2012-Should have won the title but didn't again.


2007 - Depending what you want to believe and take from media reports, it was a choke in Brazil or simply electrical error (possibly due to Lewis going off track racing Alonso). Driver error in either case, but I don't consider racing Alonso and making an error a serious sin in your rookie season.

2008 - McLaren wasn't quite up to spec with the Ferrari so Kimi or Massa SHOULD have won the 2008 title. 2008 was definitely not Lewis's best year though in the same way people speak of Kimi's 2007 title season.

2009 - Errr... are you serious? Can't you say the same for Vettel in the Toro Rosso? Or any driver? An odd win is possible but you won't be contending for a championship for sure.

2010 - Car was fast. Lewis did make mistakes when it started to matter but did close out decently. I wouldn't call it failing but simply being outbeaten by a few others. Not like he did poorly in the last race like Webber and Alonso.

2011 - Yeaaaa... I may have to agree.

2012 - Saying he should have won the title but didn't again is like saying Seb should have won the title sooner in 2010 than he had but didn't. The driver isn't always accountable for team errors and car reliability. Lewis had A LOT of potential points erased this year due to car failure. You can't let that detract from his splendid driving. He was very fast and basically error free. Same can be said for Alonso and Vettel.

I agree that I was probably a little over the top with my praise but I guess that was because I got a little defensive when VettelMessi pretty much made out that we have to judge Hamilton solely by his 2011 season. He has had one "bad" season (even in his worst season though, he still got 3 wins and was the only non-RBR polesitter), 2 great ones, one not quite as great one where he still won the title and 2 that were certainly almost as good as they could be (In '09 I don't really remember him losing his head anymore than other drivers in s**ty cars do and I think holding the two mistakes (well, one really, I think Webber held most of the blame for the Singapore one) in '10 is a bit harsh as he did have to go for broke (I know he was leading the title going into Italy but he really lucked into that with what happened in Belgium) so a few errors are to be expected).

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:08 pm 
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mds wrote:
None of what you're saying is relevant to what I said regarding to those who actually know him.
I really think you should separate on- and offtrack.

You also didn't answer about Vettel not being a good team player.


I assume this is for me .....below is one of many examples of Vettels presumptuous arrogance we can all find articles to back up our thoughts .
http://www.nextgen-forum.com/t4418-vett ... s-red-bull

I do not profess to know Vettel on a personal level , knowing and being friends with someone is quite different to working with and competing against someone . I'm sure as a friend Vettel is as down to earth and friendly and funny as you say . I would never according to you argue with someone who personally knew him.

I as a fan of F1 find Vettel arrogant and presumptuous and if you really want the truth I am also uncomfortable with the ironic sarcasm he disguises as humour which he directs at others and never towards himself . ( just my take on him my opinion )

In terms of team player Webber would probably be best placed to answer that and I see neither warmth nor even a professional respect between the two of them , again just my observation.
This takes nothing away from the fact as I said in my post that Vettel is a well informed , controlled robotic calculated driver and suits Ferrari perfectly in my opinion as Shumacher did.

His being down to earth and funny and getting on well with people who know him is what is irrelevant to this conversation


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:28 pm 
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You might be the only person who characterizes EITHER of the two Germans as "controlled" and "robotic".

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:47 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
You might be the only person who characterizes EITHER of the two Germans as "controlled" and "robotic".


Which is why I use the word "I"


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:20 pm 
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Qiwater wrote:
mds wrote:
None of what you're saying is relevant to what I said regarding to those who actually know him.
I really think you should separate on- and offtrack.

You also didn't answer about Vettel not being a good team player.


I assume this is for me .....below is one of many examples of Vettels presumptuous arrogance we can all find articles to back up our thoughts .
http://www.nextgen-forum.com/t4418-vett ... s-red-bull


Well I would say that Luca isn't so much concerned with off track behavior, but he has already flat out stated that following incidents, drivers are proned to speak emotionally, so he would not look at Vettel getting mad after being punted and calling Narian a cucumber as 'arrogant'. He'd probably see it as funny to be honest - but that isn't the type of arrogance he is referring to.

I think with Hamilton, he sees arrogance in the youngster's belief that he could march into Red Bull or Ferrari and be immediately hired; or that he could accuse the stewards of blanket prejudice and get away with it; or tweet the team's telemetry and be excused for it as if it were quite okay to do in the circumstance. The acts themselves are not arrogant, it is the thinking behind the acts that is - as if Hamilton is too good to be called out for his actions - and beyond repercussions.

Quote:
I do not profess to know Vettel on a personal level , knowing and being friends with someone is quite different to working with and competing against someone . I'm sure as a friend Vettel is as down to earth and friendly and funny as you say . I would never according to you argue with someone who personally knew him.

I as a fan of F1 find Vettel arrogant and presumptuous and if you really want the truth I am also uncomfortable with the ironic sarcasm he disguises as humour which he directs at others and never towards himself . ( just my take on him my opinion )


Could you give some examples? Otherwise you come across as a bald man speculating about people with hair.

Quote:
In terms of team player Webber would probably be best placed to answer that and I see neither warmth nor even a professional respect between the two of them , again just my observation.


That doesn't really underscore any point at all because the opposite is true also. Vettel is probably the best placed to answer whether Mark is a team player and as you say, there is no warmth or even much professional respect between them. So what exactly can that prove about either?

Quote:
This takes nothing away from the fact as I said in my post that Vettel is a well informed , controlled robotic calculated driver and suits Ferrari perfectly in my opinion as Shumacher did.


Schumi and Vettel are quite in control and calculating (in the sense of intelligent) behind the wheel and they are so consistent that it can indeed seem robotic. That is not only suitable for Ferrari, but for every team on the grid. Benetton and Red Bull also benefited from these dedicated, determined and intelligent drivers, who were in control behind the wheel and very focused on their role within the team.


Last edited by bourbon19 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:36 pm 
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Qiwater wrote:
In terms of team player Webber would probably be best placed to answer that


If you acknowledge you're not in a position to answer that, why do you then state he "is" not a team player, as if it's a given?
He is known for working well with his team, isn't that the definition of being a teamplayer?

Also, wasn't there a race in 2010 (when Vettel wasn't the clear favorite for the title) when Vettel held up the pack after the SC so Webber could get a "free" pit stop, and Vettel was punished for it? Doesn't that mean being a teamplayer?

Quote:
and I see neither warmth nor even a professional respect between the two of them , again just my observation.


I do think there is a fair degree of respect for eachother and I do think they have a normal professional relation. Articles like this one fit that picture: http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3213/828 ... ial-Vettel

What do you use for reference when you say there is no professional respect?

Quote:
His being down to earth and funny and getting on well with people who know him is what is irrelevant to this conversation


It is irrelevant if you only talk about his ontrack characteristics, which was not clear for me at the time you were saying it.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:28 pm 
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mds wrote:
Qiwater wrote:
In terms of team player Webber would probably be best placed to answer that


If you acknowledge you're not in a position to answer that, why do you then state he "is" not a team player, as if it's a given?
He is known for working well with his team, isn't that the definition of being a teamplayer?

Also, wasn't there a race in 2010 (when Vettel wasn't the clear favorite for the title) when Vettel held up the pack after the SC so Webber could get a "free" pit stop, and Vettel was punished for it? Doesn't that mean being a teamplayer?

Quote:
and I see neither warmth nor even a professional respect between the two of them , again just my observation.


I do think there is a fair degree of respect for eachother and I do think they have a normal professional relation. Articles like this one fit that picture: http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3213/828 ... ial-Vettel

What do you use for reference when you say there is no professional respect?

Quote:
His being down to earth and funny and getting on well with people who know him is what is irrelevant to this conversation


It is irrelevant if you only talk about his ontrack characteristics, which was not clear for me at the time you were saying it.


I have no interest in commenting on the social attributes of any of the drivers I speak only of F1 their driving styles , abilities , races , quali , interactions with team , and other competitors and interviews , Then,form my opinion, based on what I see and hear .

That is the nature of a forum. If you seek evidence of my opinion read my post .

I still maintain as originally stated that Vettel 's nature, style and characteristics are more suited to Ferrari than Lewis's


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:57 pm 
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You could at least answer the various questions being asked. But I guess ignoring others is also, sadly, the nature of lots of people on a forum.

I can respect opinions being posted, but when they're presented as facts you can expect being challenged.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:14 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Qiwater wrote:
mds wrote:
None of what you're saying is relevant to what I said regarding to those who actually know him.
I really think you should separate on- and offtrack.

You also didn't answer about Vettel not being a good team player.


I assume this is for me .....below is one of many examples of Vettels presumptuous arrogance we can all find articles to back up our thoughts .
http://www.nextgen-forum.com/t4418-vett ... s-red-bull


Well I would say that Luca isn't so much concerned with off track behavior, but he has already flat out stated that following incidents, drivers are proned to speak emotionally, so he would not look at Vettel getting made after being punted and calling Narian a cucumber as 'arrogant'. He'd probably see it as funny to be honest - but that isn't the type of arrogance he is referring to.

I think with Hamilton, he sees arrogance in the youngster's belief that he could march into Red Bull or Ferrari and be immediately hired; or that he could accuse the stewards of blanket prejudice and get away with it; or tweet the team's telemetry and be excused for it as if it were quite okay to do in the circumstance. The acts themselves are not arrogant, it is the thinking behind the acts that is - as if Hamilton is too good to be calle dout for his actions - and beyond repercussions.

Quote:
I do not profess to know Vettel on a personal level , knowing and being friends with someone is quite different to working with and competing against someone . I'm sure as a friend Vettel is as down to earth and friendly and funny as you say . I would never according to you argue with someone who personally knew him.

I as a fan of F1 find Vettel arrogant and presumptuous and if you really want the truth I am also uncomfortable with the ironic sarcasm he disguises as humour which he directs at others and never towards himself . ( just my take on him my opinion )


Could you give some examples? Otherwise you come across as a bald man speculating about people with hair.

Quote:
In terms of team player Webber would probably be best placed to answer that and I see neither warmth nor even a professional respect between the two of them , again just my observation.


That doesn't really underscore any point at all because the opposite is true also. Vettel is probably the best placed to answer whether Mark is a team player and as you say, there is no warmth or even much professional respect between them. So what exactly can that prove about either?

Quote:
This takes nothing away from the fact as I said in my post that Vettel is a well informed , controlled robotic calculated driver and suits Ferrari perfectly in my opinion as Shumacher did.


Schumi and Vettel are quite controlled and calculating behind the wheel and they are so consistent that it can indeed seem robotic. That is not only suitable for Ferrari, but for every team on the grid. As you can see, Red Bull has done quite nicely when the driver is dedicated, deteremined and focused on the team.[/quote

Well I imagine Narain found him arrogant when he showed him the finger and called him whatever .

But now you are straying into the realms telling me what Luca's definition of the words arrogant and Presumptuos is ?

Added to that you have now created in your mind the idea that Lewis marches into other teams and demands to be hired rather than just speaking to them and testing the water .

Then you comment on Lewis tweeting the rear wing shenanigans and because Mclaren decide a public execution was unnecessary you cite his no punishment as further evidence of his arrogance .
You then project your thoughts over to Lewis and find him guilty .
But state the same traits in Vettel as acceptable and amusing .

I see !! 👀

Now if you wish to say that Vettel is a great team player and charm personified go right ahead

In reference to your first comment of the stewards who's focus on Lewis and dishing out of questionable penalties bought about his comment .
May I remind you that at least in Great Britain we have this thing called equal opportunities and any employer is within their right to question unfair treatment without repercussions and definitely without being threatened with six race bans how F1 got away with that I will never know but HR in any other company would have made mincemeat of them .

You will find that bald men once had hair and are perfectly capable and entitled to comment on someone with hair ,

But Coulthard didn't look too amused when Vettel smeared his birthday cake all over him , but you will tell me that is good natured humour and I think it's aggressive not funny


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:57 pm 
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Coulthard didn't look amused? He returned the favor while laughing heartily about it.

People see what they want to see.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:02 pm 
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How did Montezuma saying he'd like to have Sebastian in his team when Fernando leaves turn into a discussion of Sebastian and David throwing birthday cake at each other? "I was thinking of you all race long!" "world champion inspired by aging scotsman"

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:32 pm 
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Qiwater wrote:
mds wrote:
None of what you're saying is relevant to what I said regarding to those who actually know him.
I really think you should separate on- and offtrack.

You also didn't answer about Vettel not being a good team player.


I assume this is for me .....below is one of many examples of Vettels presumptuous arrogance we can all find articles to back up our thoughts .
http://www.nextgen-forum.com/t4418-vett ... s-red-bull

I do not profess to know Vettel on a personal level , knowing and being friends with someone is quite different to working with and competing against someone . I'm sure as a friend Vettel is as down to earth and friendly and funny as you say . I would never according to you argue with someone who personally knew him.

I as a fan of F1 find Vettel arrogant and presumptuous and if you really want the truth I am also uncomfortable with the ironic sarcasm he disguises as humour which he directs at others and never towards himself . ( just my take on him my opinion )

In terms of team player Webber would probably be best placed to answer that and I see neither warmth nor even a professional respect between the two of them , again just my observation.
This takes nothing away from the fact as I said in my post that Vettel is a well informed , controlled robotic calculated driver and suits Ferrari perfectly in my opinion as Shumacher did.

His being down to earth and funny and getting on well with people who know him is what is irrelevant to this conversation

So when Lewis posted the telemetry, was he being modest?

Pride and arrogance are easily misread by observers. A case in point being Michael, who mostly everyone wrote off as an arrogant sort, but those who knew him said otherwise. He was a fiercely private person and still is.

About Webber, after qualifying for Austin GP Lewis approached Webbo and said,"you guys were fast"
Webbo pointing him towards Vettel said:"he's the faster one."

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:51 am 
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Qiwater wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
Qiwater wrote:
mds wrote:
None of what you're saying is relevant to what I said regarding to those who actually know him.
I really think you should separate on- and offtrack.

You also didn't answer about Vettel not being a good team player.


I assume this is for me .....below is one of many examples of Vettels presumptuous arrogance we can all find articles to back up our thoughts .
http://www.nextgen-forum.com/t4418-vett ... s-red-bull


Well I would say that Luca isn't so much concerned with off track behavior, but he has already flat out stated that following incidents, drivers are proned to speak emotionally, so he would not look at Vettel getting made after being punted and calling Narian a cucumber as 'arrogant'. He'd probably see it as funny to be honest - but that isn't the type of arrogance he is referring to.

I think with Hamilton, he sees arrogance in the youngster's belief that he could march into Red Bull or Ferrari and be immediately hired; or that he could accuse the stewards of blanket prejudice and get away with it; or tweet the team's telemetry and be excused for it as if it were quite okay to do in the circumstance. The acts themselves are not arrogant, it is the thinking behind the acts that is - as if Hamilton is too good to be calle dout for his actions - and beyond repercussions.

Quote:
I do not profess to know Vettel on a personal level , knowing and being friends with someone is quite different to working with and competing against someone . I'm sure as a friend Vettel is as down to earth and friendly and funny as you say . I would never according to you argue with someone who personally knew him.

I as a fan of F1 find Vettel arrogant and presumptuous and if you really want the truth I am also uncomfortable with the ironic sarcasm he disguises as humour which he directs at others and never towards himself . ( just my take on him my opinion )


Could you give some examples? Otherwise you come across as a bald man speculating about people with hair.

Quote:
In terms of team player Webber would probably be best placed to answer that and I see neither warmth nor even a professional respect between the two of them , again just my observation.


That doesn't really underscore any point at all because the opposite is true also. Vettel is probably the best placed to answer whether Mark is a team player and as you say, there is no warmth or even much professional respect between them. So what exactly can that prove about either?

Quote:
This takes nothing away from the fact as I said in my post that Vettel is a well informed , controlled robotic calculated driver and suits Ferrari perfectly in my opinion as Shumacher did.


Schumi and Vettel are quite controlled and calculating behind the wheel and they are so consistent that it can indeed seem robotic. That is not only suitable for Ferrari, but for every team on the grid. As you can see, Red Bull has done quite nicely when the driver is dedicated, deteremined and focused on the team.


Quote:
Well I imagine Narain found him arrogant when he showed him the finger and called him whatever .

But now you are straying into the realms telling me what Luca's definition of the words arrogant and Presumptuos is ?

Added to that you have now created in your mind the idea that Lewis marches into other teams and demands to be hired rather than just speaking to them and testing the water .

Then you comment on Lewis tweeting the rear wing shenanigans and because Mclaren decide a public execution was unnecessary you cite his no punishment as further evidence of his arrogance .
You then project your thoughts over to Lewis and find him guilty .
But state the same traits in Vettel as acceptable and amusing .

I see !! 👀

Now if you wish to say that Vettel is a great team player and charm personified go right ahead

In reference to your first comment of the stewards who's focus on Lewis and dishing out of questionable penalties bought about his comment .
May I remind you that at least in Great Britain we have this thing called equal opportunities and any employer is within their right to question unfair treatment without repercussions and definitely without being threatened with six race bans how F1 got away with that I will never know but HR in any other company would have made mincemeat of them .

You will find that bald men once had hair and are perfectly capable and entitled to comment on someone with hair ,

But Coulthard didn't look too amused when Vettel smeared his birthday cake all over him , but you will tell me that is good natured humour and I think it's aggressive not funny


I think I may have confused you with my post. I think Luca is full of it. I think he has contradicted himself and used too many nonsensical excuses for why he doesn't think Hamilton would work at Ferrari (over time). I don't trust that I have ever heard the truth. I was giving my opinion of what Luca meant - but I was not saying that I either agree with Luca or that I believe he is telling the truth.

Luca is complimentary toward Vettel, but I don't trust him on that either. Who knows what he is about.

My defense of Vettel was sincere because I felt your opinion of him was not supported. However, you don't have to provide support since that is OT. It doesn't matter what we think of them, what is at issue is what Luca thinks - and I think he is likely full of it.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:25 am 
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Luca is ALWAYS full of it. That's why he's going into politics ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:36 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
Luca is ALWAYS full of it. That's why he's going into politics ;)

I didn't know Luca was going into politics - but it confirms my thoughts on the man...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:30 am 
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I'd love to see Vettel and Hamilton in the same team. Both are phenomenally fast, great racers and I would not bet on either one to dominate; imo they would pretty much share the wins.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:29 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Luca is ALWAYS full of it. That's why he's going into politics ;)

I didn't know Luca was going into politics - but it confirms my thoughts on the man...

Actually, we don't know that Luca is going into Italian politics. That has been the reason that people have given for his comments for a while now without it actually happening. Luca can seem to be full of it but there is normally a reason why he says what he does, crazy as it may seem at the time, but usually something happens that backs him up, e.g., when he said recently that maybe Bernie, with his troubles in Germany, may need to step down. Guess what? The next thing I see from Bernie is him admitting that if the German legal system persue him, he may have to do exactly that. Rather than Luca going into politics in Italy, I see it more of him, Bernie & others involved in F1 deciding which way F1 will go in the future. Just my opinion :D


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Or could it be that you see something happening in RESPONSE to Luca's BS? :)

I only brought up politics because he's swimming further out to see lately http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport ... 97767.html

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:01 am 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
Qiwater wrote:
mds wrote:
None of what you're saying is relevant to what I said regarding to those who actually know him.
I really think you should separate on- and offtrack.

You also didn't answer about Vettel not being a good team player.


I assume this is for me .....below is one of many examples of Vettels presumptuous arrogance we can all find articles to back up our thoughts .
http://www.nextgen-forum.com/t4418-vett ... s-red-bull

I do not profess to know Vettel on a personal level , knowing and being friends with someone is quite different to working with and competing against someone . I'm sure as a friend Vettel is as down to earth and friendly and funny as you say . I would never according to you argue with someone who personally knew him.

I as a fan of F1 find Vettel arrogant and presumptuous and if you really want the truth I am also uncomfortable with the ironic sarcasm he disguises as humour which he directs at others and never towards himself . ( just my take on him my opinion )

In terms of team player Webber would probably be best placed to answer that and I see neither warmth nor even a professional respect between the two of them , again just my observation.
This takes nothing away from the fact as I said in my post that Vettel is a well informed , controlled robotic calculated driver and suits Ferrari perfectly in my opinion as Shumacher did.

His being down to earth and funny and getting on well with people who know him is what is irrelevant to this conversation

So when Lewis posted the telemetry, was he being modest?

Pride and arrogance are easily misread by observers. A case in point being Michael, who mostly everyone wrote off as an arrogant sort, but those who knew him said otherwise. He was a fiercely private person and still is.

About Webber, after qualifying for Austin GP Lewis approached Webbo and said,"you guys were fast"
Webbo pointing him towards Vettel said:"he's the faster one."


I see Webber's comment as truthful and honest which Webber appears to be ( I stress in my opinion I do not know him personally )

In terms of Lewis I saw his posting of telemetry a knee jerk reaction to being mislead by the team about the rear wing when being asked to choose which one to use .

You saw it as being immodest ?

It's simply the different ways we as humans interpret what we see hear and do, that is what makes us interesting and sepaparates us from beasts.

The fact that you guys bandy about the words arrogant , aggressive and presumptuous etc whenever you speak of Lewis and then jump up in arms when similar traits are pointed out in other drivers speaks volumes


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