planetf1.com

Mds I cannot produce what you are asking in any other form , my initial post was and still is my OPINION of the Lewis /Vettel / Ferrari conundrum

I have no issue with my opinion being challenged in fact I enjoy the debate ,
You are asking me to produce links ( other people's opinion) to back up mine and as I am not a sheep
I form my own opinions . The evidence of my opinion is my post .

If you are misreading people's opinions as facts , I can't help you with that other than to say that is a confusing and dangerous path .

The base line of my post was that the top drivers could all be seen as arrogant and presumtous so Luca was talking through his rear end especially as he has the King of those traits as his number one driver and for good reason .

He wasn't mislead. The team didn't know which was quicker hence why they wanted to split the strategy. If they knew which one was quicker why wouldn't they put both cars on it?

Lewis didn't like the new wing so his side opted for the old one. His side thought the old one would be quicker and Lewis himself agreed. There was no misleading all the data was in front of him.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

I don't know you personally, but my issue is with the fact that you were ignoring the deeds of someone you were building up, while deriding someone else for the same. Also the team didn't mislead him... they presented sets of data available and Lewis decided as he had dibs, so to speak.

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

No not ignoring reacting and reading their "deeds" differently to you .

Lewis obviously felt differently about the way in which the team presented the data to him than you !
Hence his reaction ,my reaction and yours .
You find his deed arrogant I find it petulant

That's your conclusion , he clearly felt misled

I didn't see any evidence that Lewis felt misled. More like "damn, we made the wrong choice, here look" and "I'm showing you because I want you to know my car was not up to the job, I wasn't just slow".

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that was WTF IIRC

No point with wasting time on this one... He/ she clearly doesn't reason for whatever it may be (including a healthy dose of bias), or why would it be dragged for 3-4 months?

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

It's dragged on because you keep resurrecting it to support your claims

I started every tweet or text msg with "WTF!" that week

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How thick do you think Lewis is?


Do you not think he would question why they would purposefully put a slower wing on the other car if they definitively knew one was quicker?


McLaren: Right Lewis we want you to take the high Downforce wing and JB the low one. Now don't worry yours is the quickest.

Lewis: Aye okay but if ones quicker why not put both cars on it.

McLaren: Just trollin' JB.

Lewis: Ha Ha sweet.

I get labelled a Lewis Basher on here And I wouldn't even go as far as saying he's daft enough not to question it if Macca said one route was definitely the quicker route but weren't putting it on both cars.


Anyway here's what Paddy Lowe said.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

It was a mistake of epic proportions and one which most of the people think was quite daft and even many hardcore Lewis fans wouldn't defend it... of course when someone like yourself suggests he's fault free we go back to this, 2011, lie-gate or the "wooden-eye" syndrome amongst others...

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

lol owned

Fact is no human is fault free I accept when the drivers make mistakes pass comment and move on where's as you seem so focused on finding fault with Lewis and rehashing what you perceive as his mistakes that no matter what the topic is about we have to suffer your lie gate , tweeting and 2011 fouling up the threads like stale sweat and turning each thread into a Lewis Hamilton isn't god bash fest

It is quite funny how you want to forget anything negative about this lad, but were harping on negatives of the other one in a blue+red dress. Also, it is not at all about dwelling on flaws of one man (as you said now, who doesn't and i've got a fair share of my own ), but just that i was trying to provide a balanced view here.

_________________
My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

It is quite funny how you want to forget anything negative about this lad, but were harping on negatives of the other one in a blue+red dress. Also, it is not at all about dwelling on flaws of one man (as you said now, who doesn't and i've got a fair share of my own ), but just that i was trying to provide a balanced view here.

............................

spot on, they like to keep pointing out faults in vettel and alonso but get so defensive or get selective memory when it comes to hamilton. fact is we have never nor will we ever see alonso or vettel perform as bad as hamilton did in 2011

That's just a silly thing to say.

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Come on guys, be reasonable. Unless anyone has a crystal ball nobody can say with any certainty that Vettel, Alonso, or anyone else won't have a scrappy year in future, so please stick to what is known and can actually be debated.

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Rules - Last updated 9 Sep 2013: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12&p=34#p34

Isn't judging Hamtilon solely on 2011 not an act of selective memory in itself?

Isn't judging Hamtilon solely on 2011 not an act of selective memory in itself?


tbf hamilton has always been a bit reckless. 2012 was his least reckless year sure but it wasnt just 2011, for on and off track issues

I thought China 2007 was driver error... someone explain?

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you need to go back to school

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this

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THIS.

we will see in 2013.

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you should really make one, would love to see the responses

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Then lets see if hamilton can become a number 1 driver in 2013.

You make it sound like Mark and Massa's role since beginning of the season is to make sure their teammates finish higher than them

Team orders ( if you wanna call it that ) in 2012 by Red Bull and Ferrari was used only late in the season, when the number #2 driver had no realistic chance of taking the title.

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I'm guessing there's this big gap in your memory between the end of 2008 and the start of 2010?

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"Braver than a bullfighter with no knickers on!"

"Don't worry, I'm pushing like a hell!"

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

Massa's certainly was!

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"Braver than a bullfighter with no knickers on!"

"Don't worry, I'm pushing like a hell!"

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

He isn't.(going into the politics) He just talks about, but he won't do it.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Yeah, seems he's changed his mind again. Perhaps he thinks Bernie's job is available in the near future.

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He just talks nonsense, as usual. Both BE & LdM should retire as long as they can do it themselfes.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

I don't want to see Bernie go. Ever!

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He will, sooner or later.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

The sooner, the better! Hopefully, Spa, Monza, Silverstone etc then would be able to negotiate a better and permanent sort of deal... it would be really nice to see some proper tracks every year on the calendar, and not alternatively as Bernie would force them to.

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

getting a bit off topic now?

A good sign a thread has run its course.

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Rosberg - Bottas

nah just need to steer it back on topic

I was. Hamilton was on finished tyres, gave it a bit too much coming into the pit lane, slid wide into the only gravel trap on the track. If he'd been a bit more cautious coming into the pits he'd have won the WDC.

McLaren should have brought him in sooner yes, but the error was Hamilton's and he could have asked for new tyres earlier himself too.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

OK lets look at Hamilton's and Vettel's retirements over the years due to crashes/collisions other than 2011, disregarding whose fault it was. I've added other incidents I can remember but frankly I don't have a photographic memory so I'm sure I've missed some.

2007
Hamilton: China (slid off on worn tyres)
Vettel: Belgium (can't remember this one but Wiki says that he retired due to damage "probably caused by a collision"), Japan (crashed into Webber behind the safety car)

2008
Hamilton: Canada (embarrassing pit lane collision). Also ran into the back of Alonso in Bahrain and lost front wing
Vettel: Australia (1st corner coliision), Bahrain (collision on first lap), Spain (collision on first lap), Silverstone (collision on first lap)

2009
Hamilton: Belgium (first lap incident with Grosjean and Button), Monza (crashed in the closing stages trying to chase down Button)
Vettel: Australia (crashed in the closing stages after an over-ambitious passing attempt on Kubica), Malaysia (spun off in undriveable monsoon rain), Monaco (binned it in the wall at St Devote),

2010:
Hamilton: Monza (collision with Massa being too ambitious at the start), Singapore (collision with Webber)
Vettel: Turkey (collided with Webber). Also collided with Webber on the first lap at Silverstone and wiped Button out in Belgium

2012:
Hamilton: Valencia (collision with Maldonado), Brazil (collected by an out-of-control Hulkenberg)
Vettel: No retirements, but collided with Karthikeyan in Malaysia and with Senna in Brazil.


So other than 2011 Hamilton has been no more incident-prone than Vettel has. If I could be bothered I could collate the same stats for Alonso over the same period and I've no doubt it would show a similar number of incidents.

My intention is not to belittle Vettel's achievements here. He's a fantastic racing driver and a worthy champion. However he is not in a class of his own.

If it wasn't for those pesky facts I would have got away with it...

_________________
"Braver than a bullfighter with no knickers on!"

"Don't worry, I'm pushing like a hell!"

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)