planetf1.com

Anyone who puts Hamilton in the same conversation of any of the 3 time WDC is a joke. Hamilton is not Vettel, Schumacher, Lauda, Prost, Senna, etc. Hamilton is quick for this day in age but all he has is excuses for not winning. His career is still going on so you can't write off Lewis but for now compare him to Damon Hill if you want or Jenson Button, but please stop thinking Lewis is as good as any of the 3 time winners.

So surely by that logic LH should instantaneously be considered greater than G.Villeneuve or Moss who never won the WDC... Or should we think that Vettel is obviously better than Clark who 'only' won the championship twice?
Statistics and numbers don't tell the whole story. Anybody whose paid attebtion to formula one for the last few years will be able to tell that whatever Di Montezelemo's or Nick Fry's or whoevers opinion , Vettel. Hamilton and Alonso are equally great. They have different strengths and weaknesses but at the moment, three stand above anybody else in F1 so just respect them all for that

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Wise words from Martin Brundle:
“Rob Smedley should have been a driver; he's wasted as an engineer.”

Using championships as a sole barometer of how great a driver is a stupid idea.

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"Where are all the good men dead, in the heart or in the head?"

Give 'em hell Dani!

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

Same to you, explain why Lewis lost the WDC in 2012 and 2010 before you start talking. Both avettel and Alonso are nowhere near the class of Lewis

yeah, i mean barcelona fc are no better than malaga, manu no better than wigan etc because titles don't mean anything.

this arguement is stupid. the best teams/drivers win vettel is a 3 time world champion, he is the best in f1 atm hamilton doesnt even compare

Comparing football to f1 and how you win titles in each of them is an even worse argument ...

Since titles are all that matters, do you consider Vettel better than Clark? Hamilton better than Villeneuve?

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"Where are all the good men dead, in the heart or in the head?"

Give 'em hell Dani!

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

While it is true that one cannot judge simply by the number of race wins or WDCs about greatness of drivers but we should also remember that those things do matter - a lot actually in the long run. After all Formula 1 is all about racing to win or at least get as many points as possible. While a driver might lose the odd winnable race because of technical failure or accident, over a period of time such things even out to a large extent and most drivers considered for possible (and relative) "greatness" would have raced for many years. Therefore, a driver who has managed to win or at least perform consistently well through his carrer should be put up for consideration against another driver with equal experience who has performed less well on paper, irrespective of the reasons.

When we look at drivers like Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Moss, Lauda etc, we look at their best results to a large extent and seldom at the races where they did not do so well. This is partly due to less TV coverage in the past but also the way people view results and achievements with passing time.

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Vettel / Raikkonen / Button

Exactly. The title this year and in 2010 could very easily have gone to Alonso if things had panned out slightly differently. Then we'd be talking about Alonso as a 4 time champion and Vettel as a 1 time champion without either of them really doing anything different.

Lewis Hamilton has never had a car as good as the forementioned 3 times WDC winners

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PFI Pick 10 Competition

Current Standing: 16th

So do you rate Vettel better than Jim Clark? Equal to Senna? Better than moss?

I don't even rate Hamilton that highly and I'm a fan of his. I understand Hamilton is one of the best in this generation alongside Alonso and Vettel and with Raikkonen and Button close behind.

Also thanks for ignoring my other posts.

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Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes

How can you compare football with motorsport in particular F1, F1 is like Red Bull having 15 players on the pitch compared to someone like Sauber having 11 players on the pitch

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PFI Pick 10 Competition

Current Standing: 16th

mclaren had the best car in 2012

2010 was fairly even

vettel only had the outright fastest car in 2011 he just maximises what he can from the car he gets. hamilton doesn't and thats what seperates the greats from the good drivers

Mclaren had the FASTEST car at a number of races, as a team (taking into account thinks like strategy, reliability, pit stops etc.) they were far from best.

Fastest ≠ Best

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"Where are all the good men dead, in the heart or in the head?"

Give 'em hell Dani!

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

So McLaren had the fastest car but they didn't make the most of it. Red Bull won in a slower package because they were better.

Glad we cleared that up.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

You keep on talking buddy, i already have debunked all your biased post and you did not reply back and why do you even compare Foothbal to Formula 1 ?

in many races McLaren had the fastest car yes but not all and it was Lewis who made the different

That's why when Vettel starts in the middle of the pack he will struggle

Jim you have a real cheek accusing anyone of bias on this forum dude.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but that pretty much does sum it up !

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"Where are all the good men dead, in the heart or in the head?"

Give 'em hell Dani!

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

Oddly enough not this year.


This year his racing in the pack was improved from previous years.

Hell he even managed to follow Button in Spa and not crash this year

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Can we have official threads for diehard fans of each driver where they can post links to things like Montezuma's comments and rationalize them in a way that makes their driver look good, or their rivals bad? Then the rest of us don't have to sift through crazy talk Official Delusional Lewis Fans Only, FINGER!!!!!!!! Fans Only, Fernando Fans Are Faster Than You Only, Poor Mark is Always Screwed by RBR Only, FELIPE HAS WDC POTENTIAL! Only, Kimiisthebesthewasgoodfortheteam Only, Adrian Newey Invented Official Threads Only, Threads.

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Not all miss, comment from VettelMessi simply are biased or do you want to denie that ?

Now that would be a Christmas present to the forum! I won't go further participating in this debate, because it's better off with most users just standing back, munching on their popcorn. Being a fan of a driver and making a point for said driver is fine, but there is a limit for everything. And it's Christmas as well.

What makes this out of vettel?
He had the better package, but was not the best driver.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

“As far as I can see from the outside Lewis is always in attack mode,” he said. “It’s funny sometimes behind a safety car [in the rain] you hear all the drivers saying ‘No way, I cannot see anything’. And then you get Lewis and he is saying ‘No, no. Let’s go for it’. And for a driver to have this attitude is a great thing.”
-Domenicali

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HAMILTON/ALONSO/RAIKONNEN/VETTEL

And your blind worship of Hamilton is taking the piss, as is you telling people what they can and can't say - I don't recall reading a rule that bans people assuming Alonso was telling the truth when he denied all knowledge of Crashgate. Unless you can prove - that's with evidence, from a reliable source like Autosport or similar - beyond ANY doubt that Alonso was involved in the plot, don't tell people what they can and can't say about it.

Rein that ego in a bit, and accept Hamilton is not whiter than white, nor is he a million miles an hour faster than Alonso or Vettel, among others.

And insulting every member of a forum you've barely got to know really isn't a clever move.

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Copper Masked Sunrise
http://tufty1992.wordpress.com/
P-F1 PHOTO COMPETITION: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7089&p=271860#p271860
http://www.justgiving.com/CIN-Mystery-P ... 00b9467dcb

Yup. That is the bottom line. In the end, the object of Formula 1 is to win. Doesn't matter if you have the best or worst car, a great or horrible teammate, a lot of luck or none, are the best or worst driver of the bunch - in the end, all that matters is finding a way to win with the skill you have and the equipment you are stuck with. If you do that, you have fulfilled the goal of F1 and you walk away with a silver cup in your hands.

That is what is remembered in the end. 3 WDCs on the trot by a 25 year old? Even if I hadn't been a longstanding fan I would have to acknowledge that achievement.

When people downplay Vettel's achievements, it reminds me of the downplaying of Hamilton's first year in the sport. I was gobsmacked by his performance; we just hadn't seen a rookie come in and take F1 by the reins like that. It is true he was given the car to do so, but all that said to me is that you have to give some rookies the car. The dude was phenomenal - you don't have to be a fan of Lewis to know that - just an F1 fan. It is the same with Vettel.

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but he was still better than Hamilton, just behind Alonso...

An unreliable car and team is basically not having the best car, the Red Bull was the fastest car almost throughout the 2010 season, the McLaren for the best part of the season was only 3rd fastest car

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PFI Pick 10 Competition

Current Standing: 16th

Yes Red Bull was the better team

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PFI Pick 10 Competition

Current Standing: 16th

mclaren had the fastest car but rebull had the best driver

not really

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

FTFY

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"Where are all the good men dead, in the heart or in the head?"

Give 'em hell Dani!

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

And Red Bull is better than Ferrari. Muahahahaaaaa

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Should I grow a beard?

which part isnt right?

mclaren were the fastest car and was easy to see.

vettel is a 3 time world champion winning this year without the best car

I like Lew but I have to agree with this.

Somehow I dont see Lew winning in the RB8 especially if it all went exactly like it did for vettel in Abu Dhabi and Brazil.

Lewis probably is a shade faster but Vettel edges it in his handling of pressure cooker situations. Essentially his 2012 title is really thanks to the 2 drives from the back of the grid under challenging conditions.

In the McLaren , Lewis would surely have won if he hadnt got the rough end of the stick in 2012 tho.

Vettel is less tempermental, makes less mistakes and is always quick. I don't think he is faster than Hamilton, but he's definitely more consistantly fast. Vettel is a safer bet to put in your car, he's clearly very intelligent, doesn't make many mistakes and will do what is needed to win. And all that said he's still only at the age where many drivers are just getting into the sport and finding their feet.

3 World titles and all, the people who still doubt the quality of Vettel are just people who dislike him and are in denial. I like Hamilton and think he is incredible in terms of raw pace, but I don't think he has the mental capacity that Vettel has.

A fast car that does not finish is not the best car

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PFI Pick 10 Competition

Current Standing: 16th

I more than agree with this. Vettel's titles are a fantastic achievement but, then again, so is coming into F1 as a rookie, beating your double world champion team mate and coming within a point of the title, losing it only to a computer glitch in the final race. I feel that the Vettel fans (like a previous poster) who say Hamilton shouldn't be discussed in the same sentence as a 3 time champion forget this fact, just as the Hamilton fans who diminish Vettel's achievements by putting them solely down to the car do.

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"Where are all the good men dead, in the heart or in the head?"

Give 'em hell Dani!

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

Vettel made more mistakes. had less poles, and only more wins due to McLarens bad reliabillity

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso