planetf1.com

He radioed tyres had been gone. Bridgestone also urged McLaren to call him in, as the tyres had been already on the canvas.
What can a driver do if the team tells him to stay out?

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

What he did a couple of times already during that season, disobey the team.

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

Do you think they would not have serviced the car if he said "its not safe, I'm coming in"?

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but, but, but... they were racing Alonso.

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

Big Ron would have came out and said

Lewis, You are a very naughty boy.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

So what, he comes into the pits and sits in his box while the team (who weren't expecting him) sort themselves out, losing even more time in the process? Brilliant...

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"Where are all the good men dead, in the heart or in the head?"

Give 'em hell Dani!

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

It wouldn't happen. As soon as he came in the lane they would be out. Regardless of what the pit wall says. In the worst case it
would be like Seb in Brazil when the tyres weren't ready. But then even with the time loss waiting that would have been a gain over what actually happened.


I'm still very surprised he didn't rock up to the pit uninvited.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

I had Irvine's '99 Nurburgring incident in my mind when I wrote my post, when he lost something like 30 seconds. Then again, there were always the rumours that what happened there wasn't quite what met the eye ...

My view of what happened in China is that yes, it was a driver error, but with two major mitigation factos:
1. The tyres were shot so he had a lot less grip than normal, an off was almost inevitable.
2. Because Mclaren left him out for so long (I just can't see a first year rookie having the experience and nouse to override the team and say "we're coming in NOW"), he had to push a lot harder coming into the pits to try and make back some of the huge chunk of time he had lost.

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"Where are all the good men dead, in the heart or in the head?"

Give 'em hell Dani!

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

As Johnston already said before me, which is worse? waiting for a few extra seconds, or losing the WDC. I might be wrong, as many here (i'm not sure but iirc., including you) in this forum have said in other threads, WDC's are not that significant when it comes to greatness. So yes, may be racing Alonso was the correct, and may i add a "great" thing to do.

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

Only difference was Irvine had been told to pit

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

To quote Sky

"To win a title takes great skill, to retain a world title puts a driver among the elite, but to win 3 titles in a row secures their place in history"

There would be no time lost at all if he radio'd ahead and said he was coming in no matter what. They'd tell the boys to be ready and it would be business as usual.

JB makes his own pit calls from time to time with no issue.

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This.

If he had too wait an extra five seconds for tyres to be ready then it would have been better than being in the gravel trap. He'd still have been in the race, he would have had the pace to get himself back up into the high points too and that would have won him the title.

Lewis proved in Hungary that he had no qualms not doing what the team told him to do, he could have easily said "the tyres are f***** and I'm coming in guys", the team would have been ready for him.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

After 10 years of experience. Had he done it as a rookie, against his teams order?

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Well he was willing to against team orders in Hungry.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It was the teams job to call him in. Even if Bridgestone already told them to do it, but they ignored their call.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Pit stop calls are not solely the responsibility of the team. They have to go by what the driver feels, and the driver has to understand their decisions. Two way street.

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No one can take any merit from Vettel; winning 3 titles.
But Mark Webber is no competitive standard.
From my point of view Vettel would not perform as well against Hamilton as Button did.
"IFF" he came into the challenge with the attitude that he was a 3 time world champion.
(we all know Hamilton had double world championship speed even as a rookie, that approach is futile)


The key to understanding Button's great performance against Hammy is to identify the fact that he grasped early his low odds of matching Lewis on speed.

So he intelligently placed his efforts on strategy and managing his races.

Exhibit A.
2010 Australian GP. Please replay this race from your archives.
(The race where Button learned what would be key to his cohabiting with Hamilton at Mclaren.)

This is one of the few occasions where any novice can ascertain, the intimidating speed of Lewis Hamilton. Yet Button still won the race!

If Vettel chose to go head to head with Hamilton in terms of speed, Vettel would lose.
(we can analyze instances where both their cars come close to being evenly matched and Vettel eventually lost -but we wont postponed to a future post.)


But seeing the intelligence with which Vettel captured the last 2 titles.
It's also very likely that Vettel would have adapted his efforts, to overcome the Hamilton challenge.

As Hamilton has rarely shown any great ability to manage a season, beyond the fact that he can get some wins.

No one needed hindsight to see what they did was the wrong thing to do. I vaguely remember Brundle and James Allen crying out for Hamilton to pit a couple of laps before he did, so the situation was clear at the time, both team and driver screwed up in the worst possible fashion and it cost them the title.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

If Vettel chose to go head to head with Hamilton in terms of speed, Vettel would lose.

................

rubbish. vettel is clearly the fastest guy in f1 imo. his poles record speak for itself. over the past 3 years hamilton has been beaten on pts by button, i doubt vettel would of lost to him

Remember Usa GP 2012?
They had equally fast cars, Lewis won.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Poles don't matter, and neither do "equally fast" cars. A pole lap is delivered in a finite amount of time - in a speed contest one might have all day to try to get the fastest lap. And "equally fast" race cars - you're what, basing that on lap time? Two cars can achieve an identical lap time, consistently even, and one might be the better car for overtaking than the other due to gearing, braking, aero pkg, etc. Cars are never truly equal in a Formula 1 race unless they belong to the same team and have identical setup and fuel.

What is a head to head speed contest? A drag race? Time trial format? Match race? All the same car of course. Are they familiar with the cars? How much time have they had to practice? Do they know the circuit? There is no such thing really as a true head to head contest - every scenario highlights only some strengths. Lapping quickly and racing are separate skills, and no skill set alone is enough to succeed in Formula 1.

There really is no such thing as better, or best, in this sport because the criteria for judgement is completely subjective. All that exists is what is better, or best, for a team, because a team can define its own criteria, and that's all that matters for them.

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A large proportion of the discussions on this forum are therefore pointless then ...

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"Where are all the good men dead, in the heart or in the head?"

Give 'em hell Dani!

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

...........

rubbish example. vettel was fighting for the title and was not about to take any risks, hamilton just wanted to get one more win for mclaren, besides i think that back marker was the only reason he got past. but like i said that wasnt a very good example. maybe if hamilton drove like that against maldonado earlier in the season he would of still been in the title race in usa 2012.

besides using your logic of equally fast cars how was it vettel won the title and hamilton ended behind a lotus? maybe he aint that fast afterall eh?

Yeah, sure, crashing into other cars was the reason why Hamilton wasn't still in the title hunt in the USA...

Remember Spain 2011, Hamilton had a faster car, DRS and Sebastian had no Kers - Hamilton spent 30 laps on Seb's tail, but Sebastian won.

i.e., your example is invalid, imo. As I have shown, you can pick a race and reach just about any overbroad conclusion you want.

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Finally, someone gets it.

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Oh Please Why do we have to argue about something so obvious.

Exhibit A
2010 Chinese Grand Prix.
Enjoy ..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyUUX3XaB1U
Prior to that there was fighting in the pitlane entrance.
But fighting Hamilton when his car is not at a disadvantage is just to much "ASK".

Q: Please watch this video and ask yourself why no other driver is going through the field like he is ?
A:This ability of his to be artistic with his car at the limit.
CANNOT BE DUPLICATED BY ANY OTHER DRIVER ON THE FORMULA 1 GRID
-------
Breaking for Commentary:
Its a shame that at the peak of motorsports safety is considered the priority.
In an ideal world, overpowering these machines and the pursuit of performance would be the objective.
The gap between Hamilton and the rest would then be more evident.
--------
Back to business:
So although these guys line up for about 20 races a year, they are very rarely evenly matched, but when it happens
its magical here are some of those rare encounters.

Between our Triple World Champion Sebastien Vettel and his more talented but less illustrious (or decorated) Lewis Hamilton.


Exhibit B

Lewis Hamilton exiting the pits Spanish GP 2010 and putting Vettel out to pasture.
(caution only real F1 fans notice these things)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDxSw6ngNBY skip to 2:44

(whats with youtube can't find these videos anymore ..someone help illustrate these examples)

Exhibit C

2011 Chinese GP not my favourite; but a beauty nonetheless.
Vettel couldn't possibly provide an answer here, candy from a baby!!

Exhibit D

2011 Hungarian GP.

Hamilton putting on a clinic. Wet Track! Rain the great equalizer Hammy was able to serve Sebastien an advance
level lesson in racing. Call it "Racing 201".

I even enjoyed Hamilton spinning out, later in the race.
Just for the priviledge of seeing him spin that formula 1 car back onto the track. (thats a "6" perfect score in figure skating )
But of course our emotionable and oversensitive (in cases involving hamiton) race stewards decided such a superbly
executed spin was a punishable offence - and robbed us of a potentially marvelous finale.

* 2011 Korean GP-

Although close, the advantage of the Redbull at the hands of Vettel was too much for Hamilton.

obvious the the Redbull was faster; Close enough competitively to score and this one goes to VETTEL

(As Hamilton was able to hold off the other Redbull at the hands of the pedestrian Mark Webber.)


Exhibit E
2012 Canadian GP-

Although Sebastien qualified 3/10ths clear of Hamilton it takes more than that to beat Hamilton on this
dirty-tricky-slippery track.. this is a racers track so it was a pretty straightforward win by Hamilton.
====
Breaking for commentary
This overconfident racer knows no one has a chance against him on this track (Montreal), Its bumpy, slippery and the walls are close. Increasing the pressure and hightening the impression of speed.
Lewis' overconfidence and impatience has twice robbed him of victory in Montreal...But in the 2012 edition of this race there was very little anyone could do. Victory was just never in doubt.
======

Exhibit F
2012 US GP

Considering a Q3 time advantage of about 1/10 . Even starting first this is pretty straightforward Sebastien's
advantage was not big enough. Lewis will usually hunt him down and overtake.

Sebastien 1:35.657
Lewis 1:35.766



Game, Set, Match.

That post reminds me so much of my Scott Speed diatribe that I can't tell if its real or not.

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Not sure if one can categorically say Red Bull-Vettel was a tenth quicker than McLaren-Hamilton in Austin Q3, when the latter managed to make it so close despite making bigger mistakes.
Let alone the fact that qualifying pace doesn't always represent race pace.

Davidson's analysis of the final lap of the two

i love these type or arguments, vettel has more titles, more poles, more wins and ended ahead of hamilton i the standings for years now yet the hamtards still try to convince everyone he is god.

priceless

even taking vettel and alonso out of the discussion, kimi beat ham in a lotus last year lol. and button ended their partnership off by beating hamilton over 3 years in the same car.

vettel (and alonso) is in another league to hamilton tbf

Vettel cant handle a car that doesn't have a stable rear end. Just look at the beginning of last season Webber was out qualifying. As soon as Red Bull got the rear working Vettel then was quicker.

Imo Vettel could not do what Alonso and Hamilton can in a bad car.

I know i shouldn't of, but its a slow post X-mas weekend.
So I decided to call a fire mission to civilize the barbarians' thought process.

Although you have my sympathy, wouldn't have spent much time on Scott Speed clearly an "American driver" with no business in Formula 1.
Brings me to wonder if Redbull is still spending money trying to find an American that can fit in the cockpit of an F1 and drive fast??

Thanks for your post.

Because it shines a perfect example of the underlying lack of understanding.

I understand Davidson's goal. He has to chose and give a perspective whether it be right or wrong, he's a pundit.
But if this is what he really believes maybe, it explains why he is not on the grid.
(He should have at least made more of an impression against the likes of SATO)


But ask yourself these questions before giving too much importance to the punditry.

Which car do you think Lewis would rather be driving.
Where did Jenson Button Qualify?
Where did that good for nothing Webber qualify?
Who ultimately won the race?


So given the qualifying abilities and speed of Hamilton.
Has it ever occurred to you that Hamilton knows all this and this his him at his best
driving around "A problem".

"Of course Davidson would concentrate on hitting the apex!" That is why he is standing there instead, holding the mic.

.........

your right, years from now instead of remembering vettel winning loads of titles and hamilton only 1 people will be discussing vettel not handling a car without a stable rear end (even though ham fans like to make out this years rbr car was amazing) despite the fact he won the title in it

When predicting the weather, Hindsight is rather handy. But foresight is what can win you a race.

Surprised nobody mentioned why the team did not pit Hamilton (an incorrect decision but one based on logic), the team were seeing if more rain was going to blow in and needed a short time to evaluate the radar. Lewis was also outside of a pit window.

All of this talk of drivers just pitting, the track was drying but more rain was expected. Drivers do not have access to the radar and have to rely on the team in this situation to know what is best.

Hamiltons pace was fine it was only in the last 2 laps he lost around 3 seconds in each and then HAD to pit.

The team wanted the WDC won in this race, you don't want to let it go to the last race as we saw that year and in many recent years anything can happen then.
This meant finishing ahead of Alonso who was running in 3rd and if Mclaren had pitted Hamilton early that could have put Alonso in front of him depending on what tyre they put on Hamiltons car and how the weather evolved.

Hindsight is a beautiful but rather useless thing. The fact is, I can never remember another car being allowed to go down to the canvas they should have pitted him as soon as Kimi was taking a second per second out of him. Hamilton still made a driver error, his only significant one all year. Mclaren seemed to focus on winning that race rather than the title. A mentality that completely flipped in Brazil 2008 and nearly cost them another title.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

Seriously wish you'd stop grouping all Hamilton fans into one group.. And nice touch in your earlier post, "Hamtard." Shows your true colours mate and just how much you really want to belittle everything Lewis Hamilton.

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Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes

Hamilton was driving much more on the edge, therefore he had some little standing wheels.
While Vettel had not to go as much on the ragged edge with his car.
Unfortunately the video ends before this was stated from Hill

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

The tyre was down to the carcass, there's no way it would have lasted more than a few more laps anyway so waiting for a rain shower was pointless. The tyres would never have lasted long enough to make the rain shower and McLaren should have pitted him the minute the carcass because visible, that is a dangerous tyre. That they didn't was incredibly stupid and commentators and pundits said as much as it was happening. No one could believe they were risking it.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004