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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:42 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Is it clear? I don't think so. Probably is not definite. And Sergio still beat him in the WDC. Hulk binned it fighting for the lead and cost himself a likely podium.

Sure they could have waited. But then that runs the risk of Sergio or the Hulk signing for someone else.

You are Macca what do you do, sign the talent or wait 'til seasons end and run the risk you see that talent go elsewhere?

Or to flip this around why didn't Red Bull wait rather than sign Webber in July? Was that a rush knee jerk?


When you have a driver like Alonso or Vettel, who is in the second car is not that important.

One of the least intelligent things I've read on this forum, and that's saying something.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:49 pm 
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When you are looking WCCs the other driver is always important.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:51 pm 
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Its important for winning WDC's too. If Massa had a better start to the season, or Webber had a better end to it, who knows what the championship would have looked like this year.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:05 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Its important for winning WDC's too. If Massa had a better start to the season, or Webber had a better end to it, who knows what the championship would have looked like this year.



that too

If Webber hadn't have passed Alonso in Silverstone. Alonso would be WDC.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:53 pm 
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I think they should have waited for a better option than perez. I realize that they wanted a clear number 2, but guys like Grosjean or Hulkenberg sound like better choices to me than Perez. But who knows, maybe one of the reasons Hamilton left is that they were courting Perez right under his nose. That is possible.


Last edited by kleefton on Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:09 pm 
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Sorry but this thread is lunacy. It speaks volumes that such was the OP's rush to spew hate filled bile that he misspelled 'Shadow'.

I'm not going to reiterate the points about Mclaren's timings on announcing/signing Perez or announcing new car because they've already been done cohesively and clearly by people before... but can we please realise one thing - That there is more to F1 than Lewis Hamilton. I know it's a shocking concept, and he's a big name and a great driver... but grow up. Otherwise threads like these are going to make it unbearable coming here until testing starts and subsequently mid-march when we get to start seeing "Oh what a big mistake Lewis/Mclaren have made lollollol" threads.

Bet the mods can't wait :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:13 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
I think they should have waited for a better option than perez. I realize that they wanted a clear number 2, but guys like Grosjean or Hulkenberg sound like better choices to me than Perez. But who knows, maybe one of the reasons Hamilton left is that they were courting Perez right under his nose. That is possible.


It is possible, but in Singapore Grosjean was still seen as some sort of Tasmanian Devil. Hulkenberg, whilst doing consistently well, hasn't had his great end of year drive and wasn't destroying Di Resta by any great margin. Whereas Perez seemed fast and young and came with a ton of money - Money they'll need for 2014. The right choice at the time was made IMO.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:28 pm 
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Who's Lewis Shodow? :o

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:40 pm 
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That would be Hamilton's alter ego who drove the McLaren in 2011.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:03 am 
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:lol: hahaha


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:17 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Is it clear? I don't think so. Probably is not definite. And Sergio still beat him in the WDC. Hulk binned it fighting for the lead and cost himself a likely podium.

Sure they could have waited. But then that runs the risk of Sergio or the Hulk signing for someone else.

You are Macca what do you do, sign the talent or wait 'til seasons end and run the risk you see that talent go elsewhere?

Or to flip this around why didn't Red Bull wait rather than sign Webber in July? Was that a rush knee jerk?


When you have a driver like Alonso or Vettel, who is in the second car is not that important.

One of the least intelligent things I've read on this forum, and that's saying something.


When you have a top driver who can win the title if the cars good enough, the guy in the second car is an after thought.
10 other drivers on the grid can do what Webber and Massa do. Ten to the penny.

Alonso and Vettel, irreplaceable. In business or sport, an irreplaceable asset is invaluable. Things that are easily replaceable are, as I said "not so important".

If Webber walk from Red Bull, they would have the field falling over themselves to fill his seat. Win-win situation for Red Bull. They hold all the power in the negotiation, the same as Ferrari did with Massa. Massa could have signed for another team while Ferrari strung him out, but his stock was rock bottom. No leverage.

Vettel has won 3 WDCs, Webber has not even managed a runners up spot in any of those three years.

So back to my original point and response. Red Bull have the guy to collect the titles, the number 2 is not that important to them, a host of drivers could fill Webbers boots at the drop of a hat.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:38 am 
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The input and feedback from both drivers helps drive development. Both drivers chase setup. The team works as a cohesive unit with BOTH drivers - upset the applecart and you upset your WDC too. Alonso and Vettel both proved this year that you have a harder time winning without a #2 who can take points from your rivals. Massa and Webber have had a lot more success than 10 other drivers on the grid, and certainly a lot more experience than nearly all of the drivers on the grid. You put a noob in either of the second cars at RBR and Ferrari and the whole team is affected by that driver having to play catch up on how the team works. Further, if you have a less than stellar driver in the other car the pitwall resources are wasted trying to get that car out of trouble. Not every driver can get the job done when the call is made.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:34 am 
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Were you in any of the meetings between Macca and Hamilton? How do you know that Macca didn't get sick of Hamilton trying to run his fee up and signed Perez, effectively leaving Hamilton "out in the cold"?

People need to drop this nonsense where Hamilton is a god, with everyone having to put him on a pedestal. He's a good racer, yes, but F1 doesn't solely revolve around him. A multi-billion dollar racing company that has been around longer than Lewis Hamilton was but a glint in his father's eye isn't basing their decisions around something as petty as "showing everyone they're fine without him." There's been much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, there will continue to be much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, Lewis Hamilton doesn't make F1 go, F1 makes Lewis Hamilton go.

Give it a rest.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:32 am 
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Thank sweet Lucifer the off-seasons are getting shorter.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:32 am 
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Sevenfest wrote:
Sorry but this thread is lunacy. It speaks volumes that such was the OP's rush to spew hate filled bile that he misspelled 'Shadow'.

I'm not going to reiterate the points about Mclaren's timings on announcing/signing Perez or announcing new car because they've already been done cohesively and clearly by people before... but can we please realise one thing - That there is more to F1 than Lewis Hamilton. I know it's a shocking concept, and he's a big name and a great driver... but grow up. Otherwise threads like these are going to make it unbearable coming here until testing starts and subsequently mid-march when we get to start seeing "Oh what a big mistake Lewis/Mclaren have made lollollol" threads.

Bet the mods can't wait :lol:

:thumbup:

But to look on the bright side, the ridiculous posts make this forum v entertaining!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:23 am 
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Fr33m3 wrote:
Were you in any of the meetings between Macca and Hamilton? How do you know that Macca didn't get sick of Hamilton trying to run his fee up and signed Perez, effectively leaving Hamilton "out in the cold"?

People need to drop this nonsense where Hamilton is a god, with everyone having to put him on a pedestal. He's a good racer, yes, but F1 doesn't solely revolve around him. A multi-billion dollar racing company that has been around longer than Lewis Hamilton was but a glint in his father's eye isn't basing their decisions around something as petty as "showing everyone they're fine without him." There's been much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, there will continue to be much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, Lewis Hamilton doesn't make F1 go, F1 makes Lewis Hamilton go.

Give it a rest.

Why did they make Hamilton the highest offer of all F1 drivers, if they did not want him?
Why are Whitmarsh & Dennis bitter & hurt about losing Hamilton?
Does not fit with your theory

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:26 am 
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Haribo wrote:
Fr33m3 wrote:
Were you in any of the meetings between Macca and Hamilton? How do you know that Macca didn't get sick of Hamilton trying to run his fee up and signed Perez, effectively leaving Hamilton "out in the cold"?

People need to drop this nonsense where Hamilton is a god, with everyone having to put him on a pedestal. He's a good racer, yes, but F1 doesn't solely revolve around him. A multi-billion dollar racing company that has been around longer than Lewis Hamilton was but a glint in his father's eye isn't basing their decisions around something as petty as "showing everyone they're fine without him." There's been much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, there will continue to be much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, Lewis Hamilton doesn't make F1 go, F1 makes Lewis Hamilton go.

Give it a rest.

Why did they make Hamilton the highest offer of all F1 drivers, if they did not want him?
Why are Whitmarsh & Dennis bitter & hurt about losing Hamilton?
Does not fit with your theory


lol "theory" is going a bit too far.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:47 am 
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lamo wrote:
When you have a top driver who can win the title if the cars good enough, the guy in the second car is an after thought.
10 other drivers on the grid can do what Webber and Massa do. Ten to the penny.

Alonso and Vettel, irreplaceable. In business or sport, an irreplaceable asset is invaluable. Things that are easily replaceable are, as I said "not so important".

If Webber walk from Red Bull, they would have the field falling over themselves to fill his seat. Win-win situation for Red Bull. They hold all the power in the negotiation, the same as Ferrari did with Massa. Massa could have signed for another team while Ferrari strung him out, but his stock was rock bottom. No leverage.

Vettel has won 3 WDCs, Webber has not even managed a runners up spot in any of those three years.

So back to my original point and response. Red Bull have the guy to collect the titles, the number 2 is not that important to them, a host of drivers could fill Webbers boots at the drop of a hat.


Incase you haven't noticed there are two championships. Most teams fight for the other one rather than the drivers. Ferrari being the odd one out.

Unless you have a number two that outscores the other number twos you won't win it. They may be an after thought. But look at Lotus (Which is funny when people say Grosjean should have got the seat over Perez) Grosjean cost them third in the WCC. Massa cost Ferrari a WCC.

And as been pointed out a good number 2 takes points off the rest. Like I said if Webbo wasn't up for the race in Silverstone Alonso would likely be WDC right now, if all the other races went the same. If Massa had have been on the ball he could have nicked points of Seb AND Webbo taking points of the Red Bulls in both the WDC and WCC.

Could some of the drivers tripping over themselves have helped out as much? Would Grosjean have finished enough races to take the points of the Ferraris?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:57 am 
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Haribo wrote:
Fr33m3 wrote:
Were you in any of the meetings between Macca and Hamilton? How do you know that Macca didn't get sick of Hamilton trying to run his fee up and signed Perez, effectively leaving Hamilton "out in the cold"?

People need to drop this nonsense where Hamilton is a god, with everyone having to put him on a pedestal. He's a good racer, yes, but F1 doesn't solely revolve around him. A multi-billion dollar racing company that has been around longer than Lewis Hamilton was but a glint in his father's eye isn't basing their decisions around something as petty as "showing everyone they're fine without him." There's been much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, there will continue to be much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, Lewis Hamilton doesn't make F1 go, F1 makes Lewis Hamilton go.

Give it a rest.

Why did they make Hamilton the highest offer of all F1 drivers, if they did not want him?
Why are Whitmarsh & Dennis bitter & hurt about losing Hamilton?
Does not fit with your theory


What do you mean why did they offer him a lot of money? Because he's a race proven driver, where did I say anything otherwise? That doesn't mean he's a god of F1 or that they can't move on without him. They moved on without Hakkinen, Raikonnen, Senna, Prost, Lauda, Hunt, Villenueve, do you really think Hamilton is bigger than Macca to the point that they're going to make rash decisions on a corporate level to "show up" Hamilton? If they really, really wanted him and figured they could never move past him leaving their team, do you not think they would have matched Mercs offer? But they didn't match Mercs offer, otherwise he'd still be with Macca, instead they chose to move on, but now people really think Macca is making their decisions based on "the shadow Hamilton cast"? That's what you really believe?

Where do you get this information about Witmarsh and Dennis being "bitter and hurt" about losing Hamilton? Are you personal friends with them and they told you that after a few pops at the pub? You say it like it's fact. Maybe some of the "press friendly" goodbyes could be interpreted one way or another but the way you say that, it's like you have an inside line into the personal feelings of Ron Dennis. Did you read Ron Dennis's comment about what he thought about Hamilton trying to run up his fee? That sure spoke more to "we're not paying Hamilton what he wants, he can leave if he wants, we'll be fine," than, "oh, boo hoo, please don't leave, we're nothing without you, Lewis Hamilton!" Ron Dennis has seen better drivers than Hamilton leave, I doubt he's losing sleep over Hamilton's departure, and it sure isn't going to influence how he runs his company in the face of the public.

My point, and I'm going to round this out in case you feel the need to bicker about semantics, is that the OP makes it sounds like Macca is doing things based on Hamilton leaving just to "show up" Hamilton. Hamilton is a driver and, as mentioned, he's not the best driver ever, nor will he be the last good driver to come along. The thought that Macca is basing their business decisions out of petty emotion towards a driver, "trying to get out of his shadow", considering they've had some of those drivers classified as "better than Hamilton", is absurd. What threads like this speak to is the insanity of how individual fans put Hamilton on such a pedestal that they actually think Hamilton, the person, is greater than Macca, the team.

If you think Macca makes its decisions based on a single driver, before you respond to anything I just wrote, ask yourself a few things: How many championships has Macca won? How many of those championships were claimed by Hamilton? How many races has Hamilton won in a car other than a Macca? How many races have Macca won without Hamilton? How many years has Hamilton been in F1? How many years has Macca been in F1? If you're going to contend or debate my point (re: Hamilton is not greater than Macca), you should probably consider the history of both entities to get a full argument ready.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:19 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
lamo wrote:
When you have a top driver who can win the title if the cars good enough, the guy in the second car is an after thought.
10 other drivers on the grid can do what Webber and Massa do. Ten to the penny.

Alonso and Vettel, irreplaceable. In business or sport, an irreplaceable asset is invaluable. Things that are easily replaceable are, as I said "not so important".

If Webber walk from Red Bull, they would have the field falling over themselves to fill his seat. Win-win situation for Red Bull. They hold all the power in the negotiation, the same as Ferrari did with Massa. Massa could have signed for another team while Ferrari strung him out, but his stock was rock bottom. No leverage.

Vettel has won 3 WDCs, Webber has not even managed a runners up spot in any of those three years.

So back to my original point and response. Red Bull have the guy to collect the titles, the number 2 is not that important to them, a host of drivers could fill Webbers boots at the drop of a hat.


Incase you haven't noticed there are two championships. Most teams fight for the other one rather than the drivers. Ferrari being the odd one out.

Unless you have a number two that outscores the other number twos you won't win it. They may be an after thought. But look at Lotus (Which is funny when people say Grosjean should have got the seat over Perez) Grosjean cost them third in the WCC. Massa cost Ferrari a WCC.

And as been pointed out a good number 2 takes points off the rest. Like I said if Webbo wasn't up for the race in Silverstone Alonso would likely be WDC right now, if all the other races went the same. If Massa had have been on the ball he could have nicked points of Seb AND Webbo taking points of the Red Bulls in both the WDC and WCC.

Could some of the drivers tripping over themselves have helped out as much? Would Grosjean have finished enough races to take the points of the Ferraris?



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:30 pm 
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Fr33m3 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Fr33m3 wrote:
Were you in any of the meetings between Macca and Hamilton? How do you know that Macca didn't get sick of Hamilton trying to run his fee up and signed Perez, effectively leaving Hamilton "out in the cold"?

People need to drop this nonsense where Hamilton is a god, with everyone having to put him on a pedestal. He's a good racer, yes, but F1 doesn't solely revolve around him. A multi-billion dollar racing company that has been around longer than Lewis Hamilton was but a glint in his father's eye isn't basing their decisions around something as petty as "showing everyone they're fine without him." There's been much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, there will continue to be much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, Lewis Hamilton doesn't make F1 go, F1 makes Lewis Hamilton go.

Give it a rest.

Why did they make Hamilton the highest offer of all F1 drivers, if they did not want him?
Why are Whitmarsh & Dennis bitter & hurt about losing Hamilton?
Does not fit with your theory


What do you mean why did they offer him a lot of money? Because he's a race proven driver, where did I say anything otherwise? That doesn't mean he's a god of F1 or that they can't move on without him. They moved on without Hakkinen, Raikonnen, Senna, Prost, Lauda, Hunt, Villenueve, do you really think Hamilton is bigger than Macca to the point that they're going to make rash decisions on a corporate level to "show up" Hamilton? If they really, really wanted him and figured they could never move past him leaving their team, do you not think they would have matched Mercs offer? But they didn't match Mercs offer, otherwise he'd still be with Macca, instead they chose to move on, but now people really think Macca is making their decisions based on "the shadow Hamilton cast"? That's what you really believe?

Where do you get this information about Witmarsh and Dennis being "bitter and hurt" about losing Hamilton? Are you personal friends with them and they told you that after a few pops at the pub? You say it like it's fact. Maybe some of the "press friendly" goodbyes could be interpreted one way or another but the way you say that, it's like you have an inside line into the personal feelings of Ron Dennis. Did you read Ron Dennis's comment about what he thought about Hamilton trying to run up his fee? That sure spoke more to "we're not paying Hamilton what he wants, he can leave if he wants, we'll be fine," than, "oh, boo hoo, please don't leave, we're nothing without you, Lewis Hamilton!" Ron Dennis has seen better drivers than Hamilton leave, I doubt he's losing sleep over Hamilton's departure, and it sure isn't going to influence how he runs his company in the face of the public.

My point, and I'm going to round this out in case you feel the need to bicker about semantics, is that the OP makes it sounds like Macca is doing things based on Hamilton leaving just to "show up" Hamilton. Hamilton is a driver and, as mentioned, he's not the best driver ever, nor will he be the last good driver to come along. The thought that Macca is basing their business decisions out of petty emotion towards a driver, "trying to get out of his shadow", considering they've had some of those drivers classified as "better than Hamilton", is absurd. What threads like this speak to is the insanity of how individual fans put Hamilton on such a pedestal that they actually think Hamilton, the person, is greater than Macca, the team.

If you think Macca makes its decisions based on a single driver, before you respond to anything I just wrote, ask yourself a few things: How many championships has Macca won? How many of those championships were claimed by Hamilton? How many races has Hamilton won in a car other than a Macca? How many races have Macca won without Hamilton? How many years has Hamilton been in F1? How many years has Macca been in F1? If you're going to contend or debate my point (re: Hamilton is not greater than Macca), you should probably consider the history of both entities to get a full argument ready.

Brundle who is a friend of Dennis said Ron, put's on a brave face , but he is ripped apart in losing Lewis. Or is Brundle a lier?
for Whitmarsh you only had to watch his interviews, after Lewis told he leaves to see it.
What you write about Dennis statement is your interpretation, and not what he said.

Quote:
"The offer that we made was higher, I believe, than any other driver in Formula One is currently receiving or will receive next year. .."


This came from McLares TP Martin Whitmash, so much to your assumption McLaren "left Hamilton out in the cold".

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Brundle who is a friend of Dennis said Ron, put's on a brave face , but he is ripped apart in losing Lewis. Or is Brundle a lier?
for Whitmarsh you only had to watch his interviews, after Lewis told he leaves to see it.
What you write about Dennis statement is your interpretation, and not what he said.


Did ron actually say that to him?

If not it is an assumption not fact.

And I remember watching the day Brundle said that and it was merely his opinion from knowing Ron many years. But Brundle wouldn't be privvy to many of the going ons inside Woking.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Fr33m3 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Fr33m3 wrote:
Were you in any of the meetings between Macca and Hamilton? How do you know that Macca didn't get sick of Hamilton trying to run his fee up and signed Perez, effectively leaving Hamilton "out in the cold"?

People need to drop this nonsense where Hamilton is a god, with everyone having to put him on a pedestal. He's a good racer, yes, but F1 doesn't solely revolve around him. A multi-billion dollar racing company that has been around longer than Lewis Hamilton was but a glint in his father's eye isn't basing their decisions around something as petty as "showing everyone they're fine without him." There's been much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, there will continue to be much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, Lewis Hamilton doesn't make F1 go, F1 makes Lewis Hamilton go.

Give it a rest.

Why did they make Hamilton the highest offer of all F1 drivers, if they did not want him?
Why are Whitmarsh & Dennis bitter & hurt about losing Hamilton?
Does not fit with your theory


What do you mean why did they offer him a lot of money? Because he's a race proven driver, where did I say anything otherwise? That doesn't mean he's a god of F1 or that they can't move on without him. They moved on without Hakkinen, Raikonnen, Senna, Prost, Lauda, Hunt, Villenueve, do you really think Hamilton is bigger than Macca to the point that they're going to make rash decisions on a corporate level to "show up" Hamilton? If they really, really wanted him and figured they could never move past him leaving their team, do you not think they would have matched Mercs offer? But they didn't match Mercs offer, otherwise he'd still be with Macca, instead they chose to move on, but now people really think Macca is making their decisions based on "the shadow Hamilton cast"? That's what you really believe?

Where do you get this information about Witmarsh and Dennis being "bitter and hurt" about losing Hamilton? Are you personal friends with them and they told you that after a few pops at the pub? You say it like it's fact. Maybe some of the "press friendly" goodbyes could be interpreted one way or another but the way you say that, it's like you have an inside line into the personal feelings of Ron Dennis. Did you read Ron Dennis's comment about what he thought about Hamilton trying to run up his fee? That sure spoke more to "we're not paying Hamilton what he wants, he can leave if he wants, we'll be fine," than, "oh, boo hoo, please don't leave, we're nothing without you, Lewis Hamilton!" Ron Dennis has seen better drivers than Hamilton leave, I doubt he's losing sleep over Hamilton's departure, and it sure isn't going to influence how he runs his company in the face of the public.

My point, and I'm going to round this out in case you feel the need to bicker about semantics, is that the OP makes it sounds like Macca is doing things based on Hamilton leaving just to "show up" Hamilton. Hamilton is a driver and, as mentioned, he's not the best driver ever, nor will he be the last good driver to come along. The thought that Macca is basing their business decisions out of petty emotion towards a driver, "trying to get out of his shadow", considering they've had some of those drivers classified as "better than Hamilton", is absurd. What threads like this speak to is the insanity of how individual fans put Hamilton on such a pedestal that they actually think Hamilton, the person, is greater than Macca, the team.

If you think Macca makes its decisions based on a single driver, before you respond to anything I just wrote, ask yourself a few things: How many championships has Macca won? How many of those championships were claimed by Hamilton? How many races has Hamilton won in a car other than a Macca? How many races have Macca won without Hamilton? How many years has Hamilton been in F1? How many years has Macca been in F1? If you're going to contend or debate my point (re: Hamilton is not greater than Macca), you should probably consider the history of both entities to get a full argument ready.

Brundle who is a friend of Dennis said Ron, put's on a brave face , but he is ripped apart in losing Lewis. Or is Brundle a lier?
for Whitmarsh you only had to watch his interviews, after Lewis told he leaves to see it.
What you write about Dennis statement is your interpretation, and not what he said.

You do know that Ron, MW and Lewis had personal ties as well... do you think the loss felt may be more at a human level than one with a professional angle?

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Samaritan wrote:
Mclaren is a great team with a rich heritage and great pedigree and will do fine in
the future.....so why did rush to anounce Prez and now...rushing to be 1st to anounce launch date,as if to say we are doing fine without Lewis.yea yea all F1 Fans know you will be ok ......but do you think you will be OK.cause you acting kinda insecure

this obsession with useless media spin that no believes or care about is getting really annoying.Mclaren you are a great team stop acting childish and defensive



This is very simple. McLaren was after the sponsorship money which came along Mexican drivers to Sauber. Kobajashi left Sauber and was again replaced with another Mexican rookie.

Cash secured.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:08 pm 
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I often struggle with shodows too...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:44 pm 
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SwSpeed wrote:
Samaritan wrote:
Mclaren is a great team with a rich heritage and great pedigree and will do fine in
the future.....so why did rush to anounce Prez and now...rushing to be 1st to anounce launch date,as if to say we are doing fine without Lewis.yea yea all F1 Fans know you will be ok ......but do you think you will be OK.cause you acting kinda insecure

this obsession with useless media spin that no believes or care about is getting really annoying.Mclaren you are a great team stop acting childish and defensive



This is very simple. McLaren was after the sponsorship money which came along Mexican drivers to Sauber. Kobajashi left Sauber and was again replaced with another Mexican rookie.

Cash secured.



http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f ... tid=148156

Sergio isn't bringing his sponsors with him.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
SwSpeed wrote:
Samaritan wrote:
Mclaren is a great team with a rich heritage and great pedigree and will do fine in
the future.....so why did rush to anounce Prez and now...rushing to be 1st to anounce launch date,as if to say we are doing fine without Lewis.yea yea all F1 Fans know you will be ok ......but do you think you will be OK.cause you acting kinda insecure

this obsession with useless media spin that no believes or care about is getting really annoying.Mclaren you are a great team stop acting childish and defensive



This is very simple. McLaren was after the sponsorship money which came along Mexican drivers to Sauber. Kobajashi left Sauber and was again replaced with another Mexican rookie.

Cash secured.



http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f ... tid=148156

Sergio isn't bringing his sponsors with him.


Correct because Koba lost his drive

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:06 pm 
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If they were signing him to get the Mexican money, why would they have signed him without the money AND pay him something like 3mill a year?

It doesn't make sense that they were after the money.

If it was about money and he couldn't bring any then they would have just went for the cheaper deal or to the likes of Maldo who would have brought it. I've seen some folk claim Chavez brings way more money to a team than Slim.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Mclaren were fine before hamilton and will be fine after him. lets be honest only 1 title in 5.5 years of having a race winning car isnt that good imo


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Fernando is paid quite well and he brings a lot of money to Ferrari. Just because Sergio is being paid doesn't mean his inclusion in the team doesn't come with sponsor cash, and of course Whitmarsh isn't going to say that was a factor. He DID say that choosing Sergio meant better sponsor opportunities than choosing Paul.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
Mclaren were fine before hamilton and will be fine after him. lets be honest only 1 title in 5.5 years of having a race winning car isnt that good imo

It's one more title than they won in the 7 years before Hamilton joined. And that was even with magical man Adrian Newey on board.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:22 pm 
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j man wrote:
Vettelmessi wrote:
Mclaren were fine before hamilton and will be fine after him. lets be honest only 1 title in 5.5 years of having a race winning car isnt that good imo

It's one more title than they won in the 7 years before Hamilton joined. And that was even with magical man Adrian Newey on board.

Yes! However, it was before they made Ferrari's.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:41 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Is it clear? I don't think so. Probably is not definite. And Sergio still beat him in the WDC. Hulk binned it fighting for the lead and cost himself a likely podium.

Sure they could have waited. But then that runs the risk of Sergio or the Hulk signing for someone else.

You are Macca what do you do, sign the talent or wait 'til seasons end and run the risk you see that talent go elsewhere?

Or to flip this around why didn't Red Bull wait rather than sign Webber in July? Was that a rush knee jerk?


When you have a driver like Alonso or Vettel, who is in the second car is not that important.

One of the least intelligent things I've read on this forum, and that's saying something.

So there would be no problem with Hamilton going to either Ferrari or Red Bull?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Fr33m3 wrote:
Were you in any of the meetings between Macca and Hamilton? How do you know that Macca didn't get sick of Hamilton trying to run his fee up and signed Perez, effectively leaving Hamilton "out in the cold"?

People need to drop this nonsense where Hamilton is a god, with everyone having to put him on a pedestal. He's a good racer, yes, but F1 doesn't solely revolve around him. A multi-billion dollar racing company that has been around longer than Lewis Hamilton was but a glint in his father's eye isn't basing their decisions around something as petty as "showing everyone they're fine without him." There's been much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, there will continue to be much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, Lewis Hamilton doesn't make F1 go, F1 makes Lewis Hamilton go.

Give it a rest.

Next time your pay comes under review and your employer decides to give you quite a substantial paycut, i'll see how that works out for you

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:25 pm 
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Will Hamilton struggle without McLaren babysitting?.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:37 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Fr33m3 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Fr33m3 wrote:
Were you in any of the meetings between Macca and Hamilton? How do you know that Macca didn't get sick of Hamilton trying to run his fee up and signed Perez, effectively leaving Hamilton "out in the cold"?

People need to drop this nonsense where Hamilton is a god, with everyone having to put him on a pedestal. He's a good racer, yes, but F1 doesn't solely revolve around him. A multi-billion dollar racing company that has been around longer than Lewis Hamilton was but a glint in his father's eye isn't basing their decisions around something as petty as "showing everyone they're fine without him." There's been much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, there will continue to be much better drivers than Lewis Hamilton, Lewis Hamilton doesn't make F1 go, F1 makes Lewis Hamilton go.

Give it a rest.

Why did they make Hamilton the highest offer of all F1 drivers, if they did not want him?
Why are Whitmarsh & Dennis bitter & hurt about losing Hamilton?
Does not fit with your theory


What do you mean why did they offer him a lot of money? Because he's a race proven driver, where did I say anything otherwise? That doesn't mean he's a god of F1 or that they can't move on without him. They moved on without Hakkinen, Raikonnen, Senna, Prost, Lauda, Hunt, Villenueve, do you really think Hamilton is bigger than Macca to the point that they're going to make rash decisions on a corporate level to "show up" Hamilton? If they really, really wanted him and figured they could never move past him leaving their team, do you not think they would have matched Mercs offer? But they didn't match Mercs offer, otherwise he'd still be with Macca, instead they chose to move on, but now people really think Macca is making their decisions based on "the shadow Hamilton cast"? That's what you really believe?

Where do you get this information about Witmarsh and Dennis being "bitter and hurt" about losing Hamilton? Are you personal friends with them and they told you that after a few pops at the pub? You say it like it's fact. Maybe some of the "press friendly" goodbyes could be interpreted one way or another but the way you say that, it's like you have an inside line into the personal feelings of Ron Dennis. Did you read Ron Dennis's comment about what he thought about Hamilton trying to run up his fee? That sure spoke more to "we're not paying Hamilton what he wants, he can leave if he wants, we'll be fine," than, "oh, boo hoo, please don't leave, we're nothing without you, Lewis Hamilton!" Ron Dennis has seen better drivers than Hamilton leave, I doubt he's losing sleep over Hamilton's departure, and it sure isn't going to influence how he runs his company in the face of the public.

My point, and I'm going to round this out in case you feel the need to bicker about semantics, is that the OP makes it sounds like Macca is doing things based on Hamilton leaving just to "show up" Hamilton. Hamilton is a driver and, as mentioned, he's not the best driver ever, nor will he be the last good driver to come along. The thought that Macca is basing their business decisions out of petty emotion towards a driver, "trying to get out of his shadow", considering they've had some of those drivers classified as "better than Hamilton", is absurd. What threads like this speak to is the insanity of how individual fans put Hamilton on such a pedestal that they actually think Hamilton, the person, is greater than Macca, the team.

If you think Macca makes its decisions based on a single driver, before you respond to anything I just wrote, ask yourself a few things: How many championships has Macca won? How many of those championships were claimed by Hamilton? How many races has Hamilton won in a car other than a Macca? How many races have Macca won without Hamilton? How many years has Hamilton been in F1? How many years has Macca been in F1? If you're going to contend or debate my point (re: Hamilton is not greater than Macca), you should probably consider the history of both entities to get a full argument ready.

Brundle who is a friend of Dennis said Ron, put's on a brave face , but he is ripped apart in losing Lewis. Or is Brundle a lier?
for Whitmarsh you only had to watch his interviews, after Lewis told he leaves to see it.
What you write about Dennis statement is your interpretation, and not what he said.

Quote:
"The offer that we made was higher, I believe, than any other driver in Formula One is currently receiving or will receive next year. .."


This came from McLares TP Martin Whitmash, so much to your assumption McLaren "left Hamilton out in the cold".


So you responded to me saying Hamilton is not a greater entity than McLaren with conjecture about how sad Whitmarsh and Ron were about losing Hamilton. My point about Dennis and Whitmarsh's feelings not truly being known to the public was that all talk of that was conjecture and that, in the long run of it, both individuals will do what's best for their team, regardless of said conjecture. Your response to that is more conjecture?

Seriously, I answered your questions, answer mine:

How many championships has Macca won?
How many of those championships were claimed by Hamilton?
How many races has Hamilton won in a car other than a Macca?
How many races have Macca won without Hamilton?
How many years has Hamilton been in F1?
How many years has Macca been in F1?


I also want you to consider my point before responding: Lewis Hamilton is not greater than McLaren, McLaren will make business decisions based on what's best for them, not based on "being in the shadow" or "getting out of the shadow" of Lewis Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Is it clear? I don't think so. Probably is not definite. And Sergio still beat him in the WDC. Hulk binned it fighting for the lead and cost himself a likely podium.

Sure they could have waited. But then that runs the risk of Sergio or the Hulk signing for someone else.

You are Macca what do you do, sign the talent or wait 'til seasons end and run the risk you see that talent go elsewhere?

Or to flip this around why didn't Red Bull wait rather than sign Webber in July? Was that a rush knee jerk?


When you have a driver like Alonso or Vettel, who is in the second car is not that important.

One of the least intelligent things I've read on this forum, and that's saying something.

So there would be no problem with Hamilton going to either Ferrari or Red Bull?

I'm not sure what Hamilton to Ferrari or RBR has to do with teammates being important?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:20 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Is it clear? I don't think so. Probably is not definite. And Sergio still beat him in the WDC. Hulk binned it fighting for the lead and cost himself a likely podium.

Sure they could have waited. But then that runs the risk of Sergio or the Hulk signing for someone else.

You are Macca what do you do, sign the talent or wait 'til seasons end and run the risk you see that talent go elsewhere?

Or to flip this around why didn't Red Bull wait rather than sign Webber in July? Was that a rush knee jerk?


When you have a driver like Alonso or Vettel, who is in the second car is not that important.

One of the least intelligent things I've read on this forum, and that's saying something.

So there would be no problem with Hamilton going to either Ferrari or Red Bull?

I'm not sure what Hamilton to Ferrari or RBR has to do with teammates being important?

Maybe i'm looking at this from another angle, it's important enough to make sure the teammate isn't good enough to either beat Alonso or Vettel

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:24 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
I'm with you samaritan. The seem to come up with perez pretty quick after saying that they weren't negotiating with anyone else. I don't really think that mclaren thought that hamilton would leave. I'm sure there are things that we do not know that made them pick perez. Tell me that anyone on this forum quessed that perez would end up with mclaren.


Fact: Whitmarsh met Perez privately during Hungarian GP weekend, at the end of JULY. That's 2 months before Hamilton announced his Mercedes move.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:36 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
I don't blame McLaren for signing Perez as soon as Lewis made the decission to leave, but to announce it even before Hamilton announced his switch to Mercedes was not great. It robbed Mecedes the chance to let Michael Schumacher announce his retirement and decission to leave Mercedes, himself.
Hamilton told Withmarsh about his decission as soon as he made it, and it was Hamiltons wish to tell it McLaren immediately, that McLaren had the chance to look for a repacement immediately.
It would have been better for Hamilton to keep quiet about it as long as possible, and tell McLaren about it ,as late as possible, but for loyality for McLaren,he wanted to tell it them as soon as possible. Mercedes was not happy about McLaren to announce Lewis departure before they had the chance to let Schumacher state his decission, and to announce Lewis signing.


Do you know such deals and announcements are not only agreed between involved parties, in this case McLaren and Mercedes, but also by Bernie and FOM? Now you know.

Yeah, Mercedes wasn't happy about McLaren announcing Hamilton departure, eventhough in public one day before announcements it was leaked that Hamilton is moving to Mercedes, so what you are saying has absolutely no sense whatsoever.


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