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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Jody Scheckter named Sebastian Vettel and Lewis Hamilton as his top two drivers in F1 at the moment.

The 1979 world champion was asked to name which drivers he’d pick if he were running an F1 team.

“I always put Vettel and Lewis together as the top two,” said Scheckter. “And I probably have to put Alonso into that but I would probably pick those two drivers, yeah, put two bulls in at one time and try and make them work together in a mature way.”

Speaking to MotorSport, Scheckter said he hadn’t supported his Ferrari successor during 2012: “No, not for Fernando, no. I think what he did when he was at McLaren [in 2007] has just put me off him for life, I suppose.

“I think he drove well this year, there’s no question about that, he’s doing a good job on that, but when somebody does something like that you lose respect for them.”

Scheckter praised Hamilton’s attacking style, saying: “When he came his first year and a half, two years, it was brilliant. I mean no one comes in and has that sort of performance with so little things going wrong. It was incredible.

“And last year he was not even making mistakes by being over-aggressive. He was just making mistakes that were completely stupid.

“I rate him as the best driver in heavy traffic. I used to rate Jenson as one of the worst but he’s become quite good in traffic now. But Lewis has been for me in the first years fantastic. He did some manoeuvres in traffic that were just… and got away with it most of the time except for last year. I’m definitely a fan of his.”

Scheckter also criticised the current F1 rules which impose grid penalties of drivers for engine and gearbox failures.

“The thing that I think is most unfair about Grand Prix at the moment is when they get these penalties for a gearbox that had to be changed and had to go back. And I just think that’s dreadful.

“I know there’s an opinion that they say ‘well you can’t separate the driver and the car’ and stuff like this. But I think on the track if a driver makes a mistake and crashes that’s the car and driver.

“But when it’s a gearbox rather take it off the constructors’ points and leave the drivers. I think that, for me, because it really spoils some races completely from a viewing point of view.”


http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/12/21/scheckter-vettel-hamilton-alonso/

Personally i think people getting a bit tired now hearing all the time Alonso is so called out peform the car myth.
Let me hear what you think


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:00 pm 
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top two are vettel and alonso imo.

both have won more titles than hamilton, both involved in more title fights, both shown their class in inferior cars. i hope these 2 can dominate f1 for years, been a pleasure watching them fight it out in 2010 and 2012. i hope alonso wins 2013 though as i believe he deserves a third world title


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:13 pm 
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I agree with him.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:53 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
top two are vettel and alonso imo.

both have won more titles than hamilton, both involved in more title fights, both shown their class in inferior cars. i hope these 2 can dominate f1 for years, been a pleasure watching them fight it out in 2010 and 2012. i hope alonso wins 2013 though as i believe he deserves a third world title


You have no clue.

'both shown their class in inferior cars' ??

Alonso, definitely, but Vettel, no, he hasn't shown his class in an inferior car.

HE got one lucky win in monza 2008, due to the toro rosso having the best wet weather setup (bourdais qualified 4th that race).

Other than that, he has been average in slow cars. Did you see what hamilton was doing with his mp4-24 in the 09 season? Amazing performances by him and I ain't even a fan of his.

The number of titles a driver has won, doesn't necessarily relate to how good he is. It was due to other circumstances, like having a slow car, or dodgy reliability that has prevented guys like raikkonen, alonso and hammy from winning more titles.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:56 pm 
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What did Alonso do in '07? McLaren made him sign a NDA to prevent him from speaking about it, even just to defend himself. Now that smells like a rotten business to me. Why silence someone if you're innocent? It just doesn't add up. We have Ron, WMSC, FIA and McLaren's version, but not Alonso's. What is worrying is no one in media seems to ask this question aloud.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:19 pm 
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james10171 wrote:
You have no clue.

'both shown their class in inferior cars' ??

Alonso, definitely, but Vettel, no, he hasn't shown his class in an inferior car.

HE got one lucky win in monza 2008, due to the toro rosso having the best wet weather setup (bourdais qualified 4th that race).

Other than that, he has been average in slow cars. Did you see what hamilton was doing with his mp4-24 in the 09 season?
Amazing performances by him and I ain't even a fan of his.

The number of titles a driver has won, doesn't necessarily relate to how good he is. It was due to other circumstances, like having a slow car, or dodgy reliability that has prevented guys like raikkonen, alonso and hammy from winning more titles.


He did nothing until McLaren caught up with the Double diffuser and basically out developed everyone.

He had what 9 points? Until they redone the entire back end and made the car competitive?

And you don't become the highest points scorer or what ever it was in the second half of the season with a fairy cakes car.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
james10171 wrote:
You have no clue.

'both shown their class in inferior cars' ??

Alonso, definitely, but Vettel, no, he hasn't shown his class in an inferior car.

HE got one lucky win in monza 2008, due to the toro rosso having the best wet weather setup (bourdais qualified 4th that race).

Other than that, he has been average in slow cars. Did you see what hamilton was doing with his mp4-24 in the 09 season?
Amazing performances by him and I ain't even a fan of his.

The number of titles a driver has won, doesn't necessarily relate to how good he is. It was due to other circumstances, like having a slow car, or dodgy reliability that has prevented guys like raikkonen, alonso and hammy from winning more titles.


He did nothing until McLaren caught up with the Double diffuser and basically out developed everyone.

He had what 9 points? Until they redone the entire back end and made the car competitive?

And you don't become the highest points scorer or what ever it was in the second half of the season with a fairy cakes car.

but, but, but... it was Lewis...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:34 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
james10171 wrote:
You have no clue.

'both shown their class in inferior cars' ??

Alonso, definitely, but Vettel, no, he hasn't shown his class in an inferior car.

HE got one lucky win in monza 2008, due to the toro rosso having the best wet weather setup (bourdais qualified 4th that race).

Other than that, he has been average in slow cars. Did you see what hamilton was doing with his mp4-24 in the 09 season?
Amazing performances by him and I ain't even a fan of his.

The number of titles a driver has won, doesn't necessarily relate to how good he is. It was due to other circumstances, like having a slow car, or dodgy reliability that has prevented guys like raikkonen, alonso and hammy from winning more titles.


He did nothing until McLaren caught up with the Double diffuser and basically out developed everyone.

He had what 9 points? Until they redone the entire back end and made the car competitive?

And you don't become the highest points scorer or what ever it was in the second half of the season with a fairy cakes car.


Button disagrees with you. Oh no your favorite driver says exactly the opposite to you and makes you point moot, end of the world?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Why when did Button say anything about Lewis in '09? Did he say the MP4-24 in the second half of the season was fairy cakes?

Did I say anything unfactual?

He had 9 points in '09. they brought a revised rear end for Germany and a new front wing for Lewis IIRC. He went on to be the highest points scorer for the second half of the year.

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... 4/675.html

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... 5/678.html

So you tell me what was Hamilton doing so great in a sub standard car?

9 points in half a season is not great. And no one outscores everyone else over 8 races in a sub standard car. The odd good race maybe but over 8 races??? The McLaren by that stage was not a mid field car.

Handily those articles also show the "Lewis was not #1" was BS too. As Lewis got all the major upgrades first.

So can you point me to the where Button says the opposite to all that?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:48 pm 
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Jody Scheckter, a champ from the times when being honest and noble was highly valued. Great respect for the old champ!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Why when did Button say anything about Lewis in '09? Did he say the MP4-24 in the second half of the season was fairy cakes?

Did I say anything unfactual?

He had 9 points in '09. they brought a revised rear end for Germany and a new front wing for Lewis IIRC. He went on to be the highest points scorer for the second half of the year.

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... 4/675.html

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... 5/678.html

So you tell me what was Hamilton doing so great in a sub standard car?

9 points in half a season is not great. And no one outscores everyone else over 8 races in a sub standard car. The odd good race maybe but over 8 races??? The McLaren by that stage was not a mid field car.

Handily those articles also show the "Lewis was not #1" was BS too. As Lewis got all the major upgrades first.

So can you point me to the where Button says the opposite to all that?


How come you know so much about a driver you don't support ?, i think you have a obsession for Lewis


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:58 pm 
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Not a case of not supporting a driver. It's about following F1 as a whole.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
top two are vettel and alonso imo.

both have won more titles than hamilton, both involved in more title fights, both shown their class in inferior cars. i hope these 2 can dominate f1 for years, been a pleasure watching them fight it out in 2010 and 2012. i hope alonso wins 2013 though as i believe he deserves a third world title


So how come Lewis was not involved this years and 2010 title fight, explaine that.
And Vettel shown his class in a inferior car ?, howcome this year he could not get in Q3 in China while Webber with the same car could ?, :lol: lol Vettel has shown his class in a inferior car and as far with Alonso he is not the best and his fans and the media really need to stop overhyping Alonso


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Not a case of not supporting a driver. It's about following F1 as a whole.


Calm down Johnston, your own hero managed to get lapped with a top car this year remember


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:10 pm 
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Jim wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Not a case of not supporting a driver. It's about following F1 as a whole.


Calm down Johnston, your own hero managed to get lapped with a top car this year remember


and so did Lewis ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
james10171 wrote:
You have no clue.

'both shown their class in inferior cars' ??

Alonso, definitely, but Vettel, no, he hasn't shown his class in an inferior car.

HE got one lucky win in monza 2008, due to the toro rosso having the best wet weather setup (bourdais qualified 4th that race).

Other than that, he has been average in slow cars. Did you see what hamilton was doing with his mp4-24 in the 09 season?
Amazing performances by him and I ain't even a fan of his.

The number of titles a driver has won, doesn't necessarily relate to how good he is. It was due to other circumstances, like having a slow car, or dodgy reliability that has prevented guys like raikkonen, alonso and hammy from winning more titles.


He did nothing until McLaren caught up with the Double diffuser and basically out developed everyone.

He had what 9 points? Until they redone the entire back end and made the car competitive?

And you don't become the highest points scorer or what ever it was in the second half of the season with a fairy cakes car.


You need to calm down and stop lying Johnston, in a car nearly two seconds slower he drove straight to P3 and Hungry he won with a car two seconds slower than the Brawn no one today on this grid has ever
shown such a skill like Lewis


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:20 pm 
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Jim wrote:

You need to calm down and stop lying Johnston, in a car nearly two seconds slower he drove straight to P3 and Hungry he won with a car two seconds slower than the Brawn no one today on this grid has ever
shown such a skill like Lewis



Did you look at the links.

By the time he won in Hungry the car had caught up in the development stakes. It was no longer 2 seconds slower due to the development of the car and the revised rear end.

That was his first Podium of the year. In quali for Hungary he was a head of both Brawns 3 tenths off pole. Heikki right behind him on the grid less than 2 tenths further back.

The car was no longer a fairy cakes box by that stage.

BTW can you actually point out where I am lying?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:35 pm 
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If it hadn't been for the post race monkey business from Dave Ryan in Australia (I know, coulda/woulda/shoulda), he would have dragged a truly dreadful car to a podium place (well, maybe 4th). Just saying...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:44 pm 
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If they hadn't have lied they would have been 4th. Thats it not a podium and that was one race in half a season. The rest of that half was pretty fairy cakes.

But then we have nothing to say how could the McLaren was that day no bench mark as such as Heikki went of early on but out quali'd Lewis.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:52 pm 
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Inappropriate post removed.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:03 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.



Can you point out where I am wrong then instead of accusing me of bashing?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:13 pm 
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I often like Jody Scheckter but I find his reasoning on Alonso to be stupid. For one, it's 2012 not 2007. For another, Alonso's alleged actions in 2007 have little to do with on track performance. Finally, Alonso isn't allowed to talk about 2007 because of the afore mentioned NDA. So the full story of 2007 simply isn't known.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:15 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Jim wrote:

You need to calm down and stop lying Johnston, in a car nearly two seconds slower he drove straight to P3 and Hungry he won with a car two seconds slower than the Brawn no one today on this grid has ever
shown such a skill like Lewis



Did you look at the links.

By the time he won in Hungry the car had caught up in the development stakes. It was no longer 2 seconds slower due to the development of the car and the revised rear end.

That was his first Podium of the year. In quali for Hungary he was a head of both Brawns 3 tenths off pole. Heikki right behind him on the grid less than 2 tenths further back.

The car was no longer a fairy cakes box by that stage.

BTW can you actually point out where I am lying?

Yes you said he did nothing, Hamilton drove a top race with that car two seconds slower something your own hero never managed


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:16 pm 
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wj_gibson wrote:
I often like Jody Scheckter but I find his reasoning on Alonso to be stupid. For one, it's 2012 not 2007. For another, Alonso's alleged actions in 2007 have little to do with on track performance. Finally, Alonso isn't allowed to talk about 2007 because of the afore mentioned NDA. So the full story of 2007 simply isn't known.


You can't blame Scheckter, look how Ferrari had to handicap Massa just to make Alonso look good


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Inappropriate post removed.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Jim wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Jim wrote:

You need to calm down and stop lying Johnston, in a car nearly two seconds slower he drove straight to P3 and Hungry he won with a car two seconds slower than the Brawn no one today on this grid has ever
shown such a skill like Lewis



Did you look at the links.

By the time he won in Hungry the car had caught up in the development stakes. It was no longer 2 seconds slower due to the development of the car and the revised rear end.

That was his first Podium of the year. In quali for Hungary he was a head of both Brawns 3 tenths off pole. Heikki right behind him on the grid less than 2 tenths further back.

The car was no longer a fairy cakes box by that stage.

BTW can you actually point out where I am lying?

Yes you said he did nothing, Hamilton drove a top race with that car two seconds slower something your own hero never managed



which race?

By the time he legally made a podium the McLaren was no longer 2 secs behind.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:21 pm 
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Jim wrote:
wj_gibson wrote:
I often like Jody Scheckter but I find his reasoning on Alonso to be stupid. For one, it's 2012 not 2007. For another, Alonso's alleged actions in 2007 have little to do with on track performance. Finally, Alonso isn't allowed to talk about 2007 because of the afore mentioned NDA. So the full story of 2007 simply isn't known.


You can't blame Scheckter, look how Ferrari had to handicap Massa just to make Alonso look good


What, twice? You complain in your opening post about the myth of Alonso beating the odds in I ferior equipment and then invoke an even more ridiculous myth in its place. Yes, Ferrari handicapped Massa a bit at the end of the season. This is because he had not accrued sufficient points to be in contention for the WDC.

I have read the MotorSport magazine in question and I am always thankful that Nigel Roebuck is still so active. His is one of the rare voices of sanity on this topic.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:21 pm 
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for Jim:

McLaren introduced what more or less amounts to a 'B version' of the MP4-24 in Germany, with a new front wing, new side pods, new engine cover, new floor (the V-shaped cut-in in front of the rear tyres has gone) and a new rear diffuser, shown here, with a much wider, asymmetric central channel. The car improved by around eight-tenths of a second with the new package - so far only available to Lewis Hamilton. Team mate Heikki Kovalainen has just the new front wing at the Nurburgring.

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... 4/675.html

Before this, Lewis was pretty much nowhere.


Last edited by MikeV1987 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:25 pm 
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Jim wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.



It's not bashing. It's pointing out what someone has posted is false. Namely this line

Quote:
Other than that, he has been average in slow cars. Did you see what hamilton was doing with his mp4-24 in the 09 season?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4-24

Results of the MP4_24. Lewis did nothing of note until McLaren brought the updates that put them on par with the front runners and arguably by that stage were quicker than Brawn.


As yet no one has been able to counter that except by accusing me of negativity and bashing.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 pm 
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Jim wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Jim wrote:

You need to calm down and stop lying Johnston, in a car nearly two seconds slower he drove straight to P3 and Hungry he won with a car two seconds slower than the Brawn no one today on this grid has ever
shown such a skill like Lewis



Did you look at the links.

By the time he won in Hungry the car had caught up in the development stakes. It was no longer 2 seconds slower due to the development of the car and the revised rear end.

That was his first Podium of the year. In quali for Hungary he was a head of both Brawns 3 tenths off pole. Heikki right behind him on the grid less than 2 tenths further back.

The car was no longer a fairy cakes box by that stage.

BTW can you actually point out where I am lying?

Yes you said he did nothing, Hamilton drove a top race with that car two seconds slower something your own hero never managed

What are you talking about? In Q1 the fastest McLaren was just over 9 tenths slower than the fastest Brawn, and Hamilton was 1.2 seconds off, then in Q2 the fastest McLaren was again just over 9 tenths slower than the fastest Brawn, and Hamilton never set a time. So really, Johnston isn't the liar at all, and you are.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:36 pm 
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drove from the back of the grid to 4th in Aus (Heikki didn't out qualify him in the conventional sense as Hamilton didnt set a time) and Bahrain (where was Heikki? 11th or something not even in the points), kept Webber behind him for a long time in Malaysia who was in a lot faster car than him.

That's 3 races he stood out in before they got their upgrade package, in a car that about a second off the pace (sometimes 2 seconds off in quali).

Any driver who achieved these things this year would have been praised this year, e.g. Hulkenburg managed a 4th in Spa (with exceptional 1st lap circumstances) and everyone recognised it as a great driver in an inferior car, which it was, just as Hamilton's drive to 4th in Aus and Bahrain was in 2009, why can't you just admit that Hamilton drove very well in '09? Do you feel that if you admit Hamilton was good in 2009 you're betraying yourself? Would it give you an autoimmunity disease?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:54 pm 
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So fourth is a great race now?


So two 4th places are the amazing things he was doing in '09? Thats the sign that he can do great things in a mediocre car? As you point out Hulk did similar (there was also a first lap incident in oz) Perez got a number of Podiums in the Sauber KK also got 1 and Di Resta got a 4th in singapore IIRC. In '08 Rubens dragged the crappy Honda onto the podium and in quali he was roughly the same gap to the fastest man in Q1 as Lewis in Oz. .

So do we class these guys in the same level as the amazing Lewis who was dragging the fairy cakes box MP4-24 to the heady heights of fourth Because they took cars off the pace into 3rds and 4ths? ? they have all done the same things.

Or do we admit that a driver taking a mid-field car to fourth is a common occurrence in F1? A good drive maybe but nothing that signals he is special above anyone else.

As for quali in Oz Heikki set the faster time in the first part. So yes he did out quali him in the conventional sense.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:59 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
So fourth is a great race now?


So two 4th places are the amazing things he was doing in '09? Thats the sign that he can do great things in a mediocre car? As you point out Hulk did similar (there was also a first lap incident in oz) Perez got a number of Podiums in the Sauber KK also got 1 and Di Resta got a 4th in singapore IIRC. In '08 Rubens dragged the crappy Honda onto the podium and in quali he was roughly the same gap to the fastest man in Q1 as Lewis in Oz. .

So do we class these guys in the same level as the amazing Lewis who was dragging the fairy cakes box MP4-24 to the heady heights of fourth Because they took cars off the pace into 3rds and 4ths? ? they have all done the same things.

Or do we admit that a driver taking a mid-field car to fourth is a common occurrence in F1? A good drive maybe but nothing that signals he is special above anyone else.

As for quali in Oz Heikki set the faster time in the first part. So yes he did out quali him in the conventional sense.


Your own hero Button never achieve that!, that's something we can agree about right


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Floppy_Boy wrote:
Jim wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Jim wrote:

You need to calm down and stop lying Johnston, in a car nearly two seconds slower he drove straight to P3 and Hungry he won with a car two seconds slower than the Brawn no one today on this grid has ever
shown such a skill like Lewis



Did you look at the links.

By the time he won in Hungry the car had caught up in the development stakes. It was no longer 2 seconds slower due to the development of the car and the revised rear end.

That was his first Podium of the year. In quali for Hungary he was a head of both Brawns 3 tenths off pole. Heikki right behind him on the grid less than 2 tenths further back.

The car was no longer a fairy cakes box by that stage.

BTW can you actually point out where I am lying?

Yes you said he did nothing, Hamilton drove a top race with that car two seconds slower something your own hero never managed

What are you talking about? In Q1 the fastest McLaren was just over 9 tenths slower than the fastest Brawn, and Hamilton was 1.2 seconds off, then in Q2 the fastest McLaren was again just over 9 tenths slower than the fastest Brawn, and Hamilton never set a time. So really, Johnston isn't the liar at all, and you are.


nonsense


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:02 pm 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
If it hadn't been for the post race monkey business from Dave Ryan in Australia (I know, coulda/woulda/shoulda), he would have dragged a truly dreadful car to a podium place (well, maybe 4th). Just saying...

I thought it was Lewis in the press conference and with the stewards. Twice! He could have changed his statement anytime, but he didn't. Clearly, it wasn't all Dave Ryan.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:05 pm 
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So were the Williams, Renault and BAR in '03 top cars? All he managed top 4 positions

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:09 pm 
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Jim wrote:
Floppy_Boy wrote:
Jim wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Jim wrote:

You need to calm down and stop lying Johnston, in a car nearly two seconds slower he drove straight to P3 and Hungry he won with a car two seconds slower than the Brawn no one today on this grid has ever
shown such a skill like Lewis



Did you look at the links.

By the time he won in Hungry the car had caught up in the development stakes. It was no longer 2 seconds slower due to the development of the car and the revised rear end.

That was his first Podium of the year. In quali for Hungary he was a head of both Brawns 3 tenths off pole. Heikki right behind him on the grid less than 2 tenths further back.

The car was no longer a fairy cakes box by that stage.

BTW can you actually point out where I am lying?

Yes you said he did nothing, Hamilton drove a top race with that car two seconds slower something your own hero never managed

What are you talking about? In Q1 the fastest McLaren was just over 9 tenths slower than the fastest Brawn, and Hamilton was 1.2 seconds off, then in Q2 the fastest McLaren was again just over 9 tenths slower than the fastest Brawn, and Hamilton never set a time. So really, Johnston isn't the liar at all, and you are.


nonsense

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Australian_Grand_Prix
Quite clearly not. One only has to look at your posts to know all one needs to know.


Last edited by Floppy_Boy on Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:09 pm 
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How many races did it take any of those drivers to achieve 1 good result? because i can assure you it was more than 1 race, Barrichello's podium was in the very wet Silverstone and only came because he put on full wets. Yes 4th place is a great result when the car is a second off the pace of course it is, what a silly thing to say.

Di Resta and Hulkenburg (both potential future WDCs) have 1 4th place in 2 season, Hamilton had 2 4th places in half a season

Kobayashi's podium came when he started 3rd on the grid anyway and one of the people who finished in front of him got taken out, i'm not tasking anything away from him, his 3rd position was a great drive, also worth mentioning it's taken him 3 and a bit seasons to get on the podium. Perez is another with the potential to be a multi WDC and his podiums were great, but the Sauber of 2012 is not comparable to the McLaren on 2009. If you honestly think that the Sauber was as bad or worse than the McLaren of the first half of 2009 then this is a pointless debate

also from 2011 & 2012 it is very different, as i mentioned tyres play a lot bigger role in the races now and therefore there is a bigger chance that worse cars can end up on the podium, whereas in 2009 it was all based on pace and there was no tyre management & refueling and no DRS meant that there was no compromise between race and quali setup.

It is a very different formula now than it was in 2009


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:12 pm 
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Oh for god sake. Both Jim and Johnston are being rather pathetic here.

1. Hamilton did drive an excellent race in Oz 09.
2. Hamilton ruined all that hard work by lying to the stewards after the race, Ryan or no Ryan Hamilton chose to lie.
3. Sheckter needs to realise that Alonso wasn't the only guilty party in 2007. Hamilton, Dennis and a good chunk of the McLaren team share equal blame. Alonso wasn't the only one who had the Ferrari info, De La Rosa did as well but people seem to forget that.
4. People make mistakes. Drivers have done far worse in F1 than Alonso did in 2007. He didn't crash into his rival on purpose at least.
5. Vettal, Hamilton and Alonso are all great drivers. It's very hard to seperate them on pure talent alone.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:22 pm 
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wj_gibson wrote:
I often like Jody Scheckter but I find his reasoning on Alonso to be stupid. For one, it's 2012 not 2007. For another, Alonso's alleged actions in 2007 have little to do with on track performance. Finally, Alonso isn't allowed to talk about 2007 because of the afore mentioned NDA. So the full story of 2007 simply isn't known.


+ :thumbup:

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