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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:21 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
Oh for god sake. Both Jim and Johnston are being rather pathetic here.

1. Hamilton did drive an excellent race in Oz 09.
2. Hamilton ruined all that hard work by lying to the stewards after the race, Ryan or no Ryan Hamilton chose to lie.
3. Sheckter needs to realise that Alonso wasn't the only guilty party in 2007. Hamilton, Dennis and a good chunk of the McLaren team share equal blame. Alonso wasn't the only one who had the Ferrari info, De La Rosa did as well but people seem to forget that.
4. People make mistakes. Drivers have done far worse in F1 than Alonso did in 2007. He didn't crash into his rival on purpose at least.
5. Vettal, Hamilton and Alonso are all great drivers. It's very hard to seperate them on pure talent alone.


we don't need to, we have world titles to do that, vettel beat hamilton ( along with alonso and kimi) in an inferior car


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:25 am 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Oh for god sake. Both Jim and Johnston are being rather pathetic here.

1. Hamilton did drive an excellent race in Oz 09.
2. Hamilton ruined all that hard work by lying to the stewards after the race, Ryan or no Ryan Hamilton chose to lie.
3. Sheckter needs to realise that Alonso wasn't the only guilty party in 2007. Hamilton, Dennis and a good chunk of the McLaren team share equal blame. Alonso wasn't the only one who had the Ferrari info, De La Rosa did as well but people seem to forget that.
4. People make mistakes. Drivers have done far worse in F1 than Alonso did in 2007. He didn't crash into his rival on purpose at least.
5. Vettal, Hamilton and Alonso are all great drivers. It's very hard to seperate them on pure talent alone.


we don't need to, we have world titles to do that, vettel beat hamilton ( along with alonso and kimi) in an inferior car

So you are arguing that the Red Bull of this year was worse than the Mclaren, the Ferrari AND the Lotus? Rightio, I'll have some of whatever you're smoking...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:38 am 
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I hate the off season


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:26 am 
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Johnston wrote:
If they hadn't have lied they would have been 4th. Thats it not a podium and that was one race in half a season. The rest of that half was pretty shit.

But then we have nothing to say how could the McLaren was that day no bench mark as such as Heikki went of early on but out quali'd Lewis.

He was actually 3rd until David Ryan mistakenly told Hamilton to give the position back to Trulli

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:29 am 
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wj_gibson wrote:
I often like Jody Scheckter but I find his reasoning on Alonso to be stupid. For one, it's 2012 not 2007. For another, Alonso's alleged actions in 2007 have little to do with on track performance. Finally, Alonso isn't allowed to talk about 2007 because of the afore mentioned NDA. So the full story of 2007 simply isn't known.

I'm guessing that Sheckter has quite good knowledge of what transpired in 2007, however i agree that has nothing to do with driving ability

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:34 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Jim wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Jim wrote:

You need to calm down and stop lying Johnston, in a car nearly two seconds slower he drove straight to P3 and Hungry he won with a car two seconds slower than the Brawn no one today on this grid has ever
shown such a skill like Lewis



Did you look at the links.

By the time he won in Hungry the car had caught up in the development stakes. It was no longer 2 seconds slower due to the development of the car and the revised rear end.

That was his first Podium of the year. In quali for Hungary he was a head of both Brawns 3 tenths off pole. Heikki right behind him on the grid less than 2 tenths further back.

The car was no longer a shit box by that stage.

BTW can you actually point out where I am lying?

Yes you said he did nothing, Hamilton drove a top race with that car two seconds slower something your own hero never managed



which race?

By the time he legally made a podium the McLaren was no longer 2 secs behind.

Australia at the beginning of the season, he was running 4th behind Trulli before the SC came out

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:54 am 
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I hope Mercedes has laid in a supply of hair shirts to print up as team wear for the Hamilton fans.

I mean honestly, this is a thread where the article that is referenced puts Hamilton as one of the two best drivers right now and it degrades into a pissing match because someone said that Lewis hasn't really spent anytime in a slower car.

The fact that the McLaren wasn't among the top cars at the start of 2009 isn't the same as a year and a half at Torro Rosso, or 2 years at Minardi isn't a knock against Hamilton, it's a simple fact. It doesn't detract from Lewis' accomplishments at all. It's only the more fevered Hamilton fans who sees any post that doesn't praise him who see anything that isn't praise as a dig that brings so many threads down to such a low level.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:22 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
I hope Mercedes has laid in a supply of hair shirts to print up as team wear for the Hamilton fans.

I mean honestly, this is a thread where the article that is referenced puts Hamilton as one of the two best drivers right now and it degrades into a pissing match because someone said that Lewis hasn't really spent anytime in a slower car.

The fact that the McLaren wasn't among the top cars at the start of 2009 isn't the same as a year and a half at Torro Rosso, or 2 years at Minardi isn't a knock against Hamilton, it's a simple fact. It doesn't detract from Lewis' accomplishments at all. It's only the more fevered Hamilton fans who sees any post that doesn't praise him who see anything that isn't praise as a dig that brings so many threads down to such a low level.

:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:24 am 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Vettelmessi wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Oh for god sake. Both Jim and Johnston are being rather pathetic here.

1. Hamilton did drive an excellent race in Oz 09.
2. Hamilton ruined all that hard work by lying to the stewards after the race, Ryan or no Ryan Hamilton chose to lie.
3. Sheckter needs to realise that Alonso wasn't the only guilty party in 2007. Hamilton, Dennis and a good chunk of the McLaren team share equal blame. Alonso wasn't the only one who had the Ferrari info, De La Rosa did as well but people seem to forget that.
4. People make mistakes. Drivers have done far worse in F1 than Alonso did in 2007. He didn't crash into his rival on purpose at least.
5. Vettal, Hamilton and Alonso are all great drivers. It's very hard to seperate them on pure talent alone.


we don't need to, we have world titles to do that, vettel beat hamilton ( along with alonso and kimi) in an inferior car

So you are arguing that the Red Bull of this year was worse than the Mclaren, the Ferrari AND the Lotus? Rightio, I'll have some of whatever you're smoking...

McLaren claimed they were better than RBR. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:34 am 
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Johnston wrote:
If they hadn't have lied they would have been 4th. Thats it not a podium and that was one race in half a season. The rest of that half was pretty shit.

But then we have nothing to say how could the McLaren was that day no bench mark as such as Heikki went of early on but out quali'd Lewis.



That's rubbish Hamilton got into Q2 but his car broke down. Going from there to 4th was one of the best drives I have seen, scything through the pack in a dog of a car.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:25 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Jim wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Jim wrote:

You need to calm down and stop lying Johnston, in a car nearly two seconds slower he drove straight to P3 and Hungry he won with a car two seconds slower than the Brawn no one today on this grid has ever
shown such a skill like Lewis



Did you look at the links.

By the time he won in Hungry the car had caught up in the development stakes. It was no longer 2 seconds slower due to the development of the car and the revised rear end.

That was his first Podium of the year. In quali for Hungary he was a head of both Brawns 3 tenths off pole. Heikki right behind him on the grid less than 2 tenths further back.

The car was no longer a shit box by that stage.

BTW can you actually point out where I am lying?

Yes you said he did nothing, Hamilton drove a top race with that car two seconds slower something your own hero never managed



which race?

By the time he legally made a podium the McLaren was no longer 2 secs behind.

Australia at the beginning of the season, he was running 4th behind Trulli before the SC came out



For which he was DSQ'd so no podium. No podium until Hungary.

Jakhannaby wrote:


That's rubbish Hamilton got into Q2 but his car broke down. Going from there to 4th was one of the best drives I have seen, scything through the pack in a dog of a car.


No it's not

HK time 1:26.184
LH time 1:26.454

You tell me which was faster in Q1?

But seeing as I have gotten a warning for not breaking any rules I am out.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:27 am 
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Johnston wrote:
james10171 wrote:
You have no clue.

'both shown their class in inferior cars' ??

Alonso, definitely, but Vettel, no, he hasn't shown his class in an inferior car.

HE got one lucky win in monza 2008, due to the toro rosso having the best wet weather setup (bourdais qualified 4th that race).

Other than that, he has been average in slow cars. Did you see what hamilton was doing with his mp4-24 in the 09 season?
Amazing performances by him and I ain't even a fan of his.

The number of titles a driver has won, doesn't necessarily relate to how good he is. It was due to other circumstances, like having a slow car, or dodgy reliability that has prevented guys like raikkonen, alonso and hammy from winning more titles.


He did nothing until McLaren caught up with the Double diffuser and basically out developed everyone.

He had what 9 points? Until they redone the entire back end and made the car competitive?

And you don't become the highest points scorer or what ever it was in the second half of the season with a shit car.

Funny enough many true experts (including the top brass of McLaren) think 2009 was one of Hamiltons best, because of he put the the car where it did not belong.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:12 am 
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Jim wrote:
Jody Scheckter named Sebastian Vettel and Lewis Hamilton as his top two drivers in F1 at the moment.

The 1979 world champion was asked to name which drivers he’d pick if he were running an F1 team.

“I always put Vettel and Lewis together as the top two,” said Scheckter. “And I probably have to put Alonso into that but I would probably pick those two drivers, yeah, put two bulls in at one time and try and make them work together in a mature way.”

Speaking to MotorSport, Scheckter said he hadn’t supported his Ferrari successor during 2012: “No, not for Fernando, no. I think what he did when he was at McLaren [in 2007] has just put me off him for life, I suppose.

“I think he drove well this year, there’s no question about that, he’s doing a good job on that, but when somebody does something like that you lose respect for them.”

Scheckter praised Hamilton’s attacking style, saying: “When he came his first year and a half, two years, it was brilliant. I mean no one comes in and has that sort of performance with so little things going wrong. It was incredible.

“And last year he was not even making mistakes by being over-aggressive. He was just making mistakes that were completely stupid.

“I rate him as the best driver in heavy traffic. I used to rate Jenson as one of the worst but he’s become quite good in traffic now. But Lewis has been for me in the first years fantastic. He did some manoeuvres in traffic that were just… and got away with it most of the time except for last year. I’m definitely a fan of his.”


Scheckter also criticised the current F1 rules which impose grid penalties of drivers for engine and gearbox failures.

“The thing that I think is most unfair about Grand Prix at the moment is when they get these penalties for a gearbox that had to be changed and had to go back. And I just think that’s dreadful.

“I know there’s an opinion that they say ‘well you can’t separate the driver and the car’ and stuff like this. But I think on the track if a driver makes a mistake and crashes that’s the car and driver.

“But when it’s a gearbox rather take it off the constructors’ points and leave the drivers. I think that, for me, because it really spoils some races completely from a viewing point of view.”


http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/12/21/scheckter-vettel-hamilton-alonso/

Personally i think people getting a bit tired now hearing all the time Alonso is so called out peform the car myth.
Let me hear what you think


I think he's right but over the years ive gained a lot of respect for him since he openly aknowledges Lewis's talent more than once. He soon realised he was probably better than him. Also Lewis thinks Alonso may be the best.

I agree with him because Brazil 2007 Alo pushed lewis wide in turn 4 wich lost him critical positions. I remember cursing at Alonso for that move. Hungary same story. I regard all three of them very high. But Alonso and Hamilton are my favourite drivers. Imo Hamilton makes F1 exciting too watch.

RaggedMan wrote:
I hope Mercedes has laid in a supply of hair shirts to print up as team wear for the Hamilton fans.

I mean honestly, this is a thread where the article that is referenced puts Hamilton as one of the two best drivers right now and it degrades into a pissing match because someone said that Lewis hasn't really spent anytime in a slower car.

The fact that the McLaren wasn't among the top cars at the start of 2009 isn't the same as a year and a half at Torro Rosso, or 2 years at Minardi isn't a knock against Hamilton, it's a simple fact. It doesn't detract from Lewis' accomplishments at all. It's only the more fevered Hamilton fans who sees any post that doesn't praise him who see anything that isn't praise as a dig that brings so many threads down to such a low level.


Finally somebody is talking some sense :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:46 am 
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Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
james10171 wrote:
You have no clue.

'both shown their class in inferior cars' ??

Alonso, definitely, but Vettel, no, he hasn't shown his class in an inferior car.

HE got one lucky win in monza 2008, due to the toro rosso having the best wet weather setup (bourdais qualified 4th that race).

Other than that, he has been average in slow cars. Did you see what hamilton was doing with his mp4-24 in the 09 season?
Amazing performances by him and I ain't even a fan of his.

The number of titles a driver has won, doesn't necessarily relate to how good he is. It was due to other circumstances, like having a slow car, or dodgy reliability that has prevented guys like raikkonen, alonso and hammy from winning more titles.


He did nothing until McLaren caught up with the Double diffuser and basically out developed everyone.

He had what 9 points? Until they redone the entire back end and made the car competitive?

And you don't become the highest points scorer or what ever it was in the second half of the season with a shit car.

Funny enough many true experts (including the top brass of McLaren) think 2009 was one of Hamiltons best, because of he put the the car where it did not belong.

Do you mean like qualifying 19th out of 20 in silverstone?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:33 am 
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Another person who thinks that 2007 is the only season that mattered in F1.. I could understand if he meant the drivers that he respects the most, but off track actions are irrelevant she talking aboutbest driver. It's not that Lewis is saint either and clearly Ron and his team were responsible for 2007 scandal, not Alonso.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:07 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
Another person who thinks that 2007 is the only season that mattered in F1.. I could understand if he meant the drivers that he respects the most, but off track actions are irrelevant she talking aboutbest driver. It's not that Lewis is saint either and clearly Ron and his team were responsible for 2007 scandal, not Alonso.

The criticism of Alonso for 2007 is mostly for his childish, petulant behaviour off the track (and in the Hungaroring pitlane) rather than for his involvement in the spying scandal.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
[Australia at the beginning of the season, he was running 4th behind Trulli before the SC came out



For which he was DSQ'd so no podium. No podium until Hungary.


Yes he got disqualified because of his team that doesn't disount his performance though, if not for his team he would have finished 3rd

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:29 pm 
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j man wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Another person who thinks that 2007 is the only season that mattered in F1.. I could understand if he meant the drivers that he respects the most, but off track actions are irrelevant she talking aboutbest driver. It's not that Lewis is saint either and clearly Ron and his team were responsible for 2007 scandal, not Alonso.

The criticism of Alonso for 2007 is mostly for his childish, petulant behaviour off the track (and in the Hungaroring pitlane) rather than for his involvement in the spying scandal.

Psst. It was Ron who ok'd Alonso holding Lewis, which was in order to honour pre-race agreement between the two drivers which Lewis reneged on.

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Last edited by garagetinkerer on Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:34 pm 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
j man wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Another person who thinks that 2007 is the only season that mattered in F1.. I could understand if he meant the drivers that he respects the most, but off track actions are irrelevant she talking aboutbest driver. It's not that Lewis is saint either and clearly Ron and his team were responsible for 2007 scandal, not Alonso.

The criticism of Alonso for 2007 is mostly for his childish, petulant behaviour off the track (and in the Hungaroring pitlane) rather than for his involvement in the spying scandal.

Pest. It was Ron who ok'd Alonso holding Lewis, which was in order to honour pre-race agreement between the two drivers which Lewis reneged on.

Thats why Ron angrily pulled the headphones off Alonso's manager's head? :?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
j man wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Another person who thinks that 2007 is the only season that mattered in F1.. I could understand if he meant the drivers that he respects the most, but off track actions are irrelevant she talking aboutbest driver. It's not that Lewis is saint either and clearly Ron and his team were responsible for 2007 scandal, not Alonso.

The criticism of Alonso for 2007 is mostly for his childish, petulant behaviour off the track (and in the Hungaroring pitlane) rather than for his involvement in the spying scandal.

Psst. It was Ron who ok'd Alonso holding Lewis, which was in order to honour pre-race agreement between the two drivers which Lewis reneged on.

Thats why Ron angrily pulled the headphones off Alonso's manager's head? :?

One of the many reasons why I don't think Ron's as white as he presents himself to be.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:08 pm 
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Hamilton has beaten two world champions in their prime in equal cars, Alonso hasn't and neither has Vettel, so before you Ham haters start beating on him just remember that fact, oh and apart from Alonso partnering Hamilton (when he was beaten) what strong team mates has Alonso and Vettel had?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:09 pm 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
j man wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Another person who thinks that 2007 is the only season that mattered in F1.. I could understand if he meant the drivers that he respects the most, but off track actions are irrelevant she talking aboutbest driver. It's not that Lewis is saint either and clearly Ron and his team were responsible for 2007 scandal, not Alonso.

The criticism of Alonso for 2007 is mostly for his childish, petulant behaviour off the track (and in the Hungaroring pitlane) rather than for his involvement in the spying scandal.

Psst. It was Ron who ok'd Alonso holding Lewis, which was in order to honour pre-race agreement between the two drivers which Lewis reneged on.
:lol: :lol: really? :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:15 pm 
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If I understood that right Scheckter is saying he does class Alonso with Vettel and Hamilton he just doesn't like what he did in 07. I really don't know what happened in 07 but what drivers do in the past has no reflection of the drivers they become. However good Alonso is it has no bearing to 07 so for ex driver to come out with dribble like that is stupid.
If he rates Vettel and Hamilton above Alonso fine but don't talk rubbish about things that don't relate to how good a driver is.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:17 pm 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
j man wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Another person who thinks that 2007 is the only season that mattered in F1.. I could understand if he meant the drivers that he respects the most, but off track actions are irrelevant she talking aboutbest driver. It's not that Lewis is saint either and clearly Ron and his team were responsible for 2007 scandal, not Alonso.

The criticism of Alonso for 2007 is mostly for his childish, petulant behaviour off the track (and in the Hungaroring pitlane) rather than for his involvement in the spying scandal.

Psst. It was Ron who ok'd Alonso holding Lewis, which was in order to honour pre-race agreement between the two drivers which Lewis reneged on.

Image?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:29 pm 
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j man wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Another person who thinks that 2007 is the only season that mattered in F1.. I could understand if he meant the drivers that he respects the most, but off track actions are irrelevant she talking aboutbest driver. It's not that Lewis is saint either and clearly Ron and his team were responsible for 2007 scandal, not Alonso.

The criticism of Alonso for 2007 is mostly for his childish, petulant behaviour off the track (and in the Hungaroring pitlane) rather than for his involvement in the spying scandal.

So because on track he is worse than Hamilton or Vettel? In 2007 he was already double world champion. Alonso is clearly amongst the best along with Vettel and Hamilton. I think Scheckter doesn't like Alonso, because he is inconsistent with his opinions. Both Vettel and Hamilton had bad momments too, but they are still great drivers.

My point about Ron was that the situation at team was unhealthy and Rons failure to acknowledge the spying allowed Alonso to put pressure on McLaren. At the end of day it was Ron who failed to manage his drivers. In other words Alonso wasn't innocent, but his team was much worse. I wonder what Scheckter thinks about Ron and McLaren.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:30 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
Hamilton has beaten two world champions in their prime in equal cars, Alonso hasn't and neither has Vettel, so before you Ham haters start beating on him just remember that fact, oh and apart from Alonso partnering Hamilton (when he was beaten) what strong team mates has Alonso and Vettel had?


he also lost to button in equal machinery both over a season and in total points together as teammates.
on top of that he hanst beaten vettel or alonso in 3 years and was also beaten by a lotus this year despite driving the fastest car of 2012

just saying


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:49 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
j man wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Another person who thinks that 2007 is the only season that mattered in F1.. I could understand if he meant the drivers that he respects the most, but off track actions are irrelevant she talking aboutbest driver. It's not that Lewis is saint either and clearly Ron and his team were responsible for 2007 scandal, not Alonso.

The criticism of Alonso for 2007 is mostly for his childish, petulant behaviour off the track (and in the Hungaroring pitlane) rather than for his involvement in the spying scandal.

So because on track he is worse than Hamilton or Vettel? In 2007 he was already double world champion. Alonso is clearly amongst the best along with Vettel and Hamilton. I think Scheckter doesn't like Alonso, because he is inconsistent with his opinions. Both Vettel and Hamilton had bad momments too, but they are still great drivers.

My point about Ron was that the situation at team was unhealthy and Rons failure to acknowledge the spying allowed Alonso to put pressure on McLaren. At the end of day it was Ron who failed to manage his drivers. In other words Alonso wasn't innocent, but his team was much worse. I wonder what Scheckter thinks about Ron and McLaren.

Fully agree with the first paragraph.

However I think Alonso caused his own downfall that year because of his misplaced belief that the team was going to revolve around him as the Renault team had done. Ron didn't treat Alonso any differently to the other star drivers he has had. I don't think it was Ron's mismanagement that was the issue, it was Alonso's ego.

I think the spying scandal is a separate issue altogether and was just one of the tools Alonso had at his disposal to try to get the team on his side once he'd thrown his toys out of the pram.

I think Alonso learned from 2007. It taught him a bit of humility and overall he's now a much more complete driver. He seems like much more of a team leader now than he did in his championship years at Renault


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:27 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
lunatic wrote:
Hamilton has beaten two world champions in their prime in equal cars, Alonso hasn't and neither has Vettel, so before you Ham haters start beating on him just remember that fact, oh and apart from Alonso partnering Hamilton (when he was beaten) what strong team mates has Alonso and Vettel had?


he also lost to button in equal machinery both over a season and in total points together as teammates.
on top of that he hanst beaten vettel or alonso in 3 years and was also beaten by a lotus this year despite driving the fastest car of 2012

just saying
Only finished with less points than Button over his term with him due to shocking reliability, yes, last year was a shocker for Hamilton and it was clear to everyone his personal life effected his driving (plus Massa kept crashing into him), he may well have been beaten by a lotus, but that lotus was super quick and 100% reliable, count how many points Kimi lost due to reliability this year, just saying ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:56 pm 
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Jim wrote:
wj_gibson wrote:
I often like Jody Scheckter but I find his reasoning on Alonso to be stupid. For one, it's 2012 not 2007. For another, Alonso's alleged actions in 2007 have little to do with on track performance. Finally, Alonso isn't allowed to talk about 2007 because of the afore mentioned NDA. So the full story of 2007 simply isn't known.


You can't blame Scheckter, look how Ferrari had to handicap Massa just to make Alonso look good


Yep, Ferrari from the off were not concerned at all about the WCC or the WDC, their only purpose in life is to make Alonso look better than his team mate. It's so obvious. Otherwise there is not a chance in hell a second rate driver like Alonso could beat Massa. I specially like the 'had to' part.

Funny thing is I don't really understand what happened to Ferrari a few months back (one of those mysteries of life). They were doing such a good job of handicapping Massa and then suddenly decided they would 'unleash' him to make Alonso look bad!! Isn't that just plain stupid?! I mean surely a big corporation like Ferrari would have someone capable of taking a stance and seeing it through till the end. What is the world coming to?!

In other words.. take a moment to read your post before you hit the submit button, it would avoid the risk of people thinking you are writing nonsense. Merry Christmas! ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Lets see what Vettel has done with a car which was 6th (almost single handedly by Vettel's points) in the WCC in 2008:

He has finished 12 races and had 6 retirements.
One win
One 4th place
Three 5th places
Two 6th places
Two 8th places
One 9th places
One 12th place
One 17th place

Compare with Hamilton's 2009 season
Before Hungary:
One 4th place
One 6th
One 7th
One 9th
One 12th
One 13th
One 16th
One 18th
DSQ from 4th

After B car
Two wins
One 2nd place
Two 3rd
One 12th
Two retirements


Last edited by PacificBeach on Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:26 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Jim wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.



It's not bashing. It's pointing out what someone has posted is false. Namely this line

Quote:
Other than that, he has been average in slow cars. Did you see what hamilton was doing with his mp4-24 in the 09 season?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4-24

Results of the MP4_24. Lewis did nothing of note until McLaren brought the updates that put them on par with the front runners and arguably by that stage were quicker than Brawn.


As yet no one has been able to counter that except by accusing me of negativity and bashing.


Watch the 2009 Bahrain GP again. Have a look at Hamilton's performance in that race.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:33 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
Lets see what Vettel has done with a car which was 6th (almost single handedly by Vettel's points) in the WDC in 2008:

He has finished 12 races and had 6 retirements.
One win
One 4th place
Three 5th places
Two 6th places
Two 8th places
One 9th places
One 12th place
One 17th place

Compare with Hamilton's 2009 season
Before Hungary:
One 4th place
One 6th
One 7th
One 9th
One 12th
One 13th
One 16th
One 18th
DSQ from 4th

After B car
Two wins
One 2nd place
Two 3rd
One 12th
Two retirements

In it's early guise, the '09 Mclaren was SUBSTANTIALLY worse than the STR was compared to the rest of the field.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:40 pm 
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Posts: 1784
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
Lets see what Vettel has done with a car which was 6th (almost single handedly by Vettel's points) in the WDC in 2008:

He has finished 12 races and had 6 retirements.
One win
One 4th place
Three 5th places
Two 6th places
Two 8th places
One 9th places
One 12th place
One 17th place

Compare with Hamilton's 2009 season
Before Hungary:
One 4th place
One 6th
One 7th
One 9th
One 12th
One 13th
One 16th
One 18th
DSQ from 4th

After B car
Two wins
One 2nd place
Two 3rd
One 12th
Two retirements

In it's early guise, the '09 Mclaren was SUBSTANTIALLY worse than the STR was compared to the rest of the field.


b-b-but Hamilton can't do anything g-good... r-right guys... guys?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:45 pm 
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You mean the one where he qualied 5th and ended up 4th After being 2nd or 3rd. In the only KERS equipped car in the top 5 ?

In a car Which according to F1 he was just over 1tenth of the winning brawn in quali.

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2009/807/6620/

Is that the race you are talking about?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:52 pm 
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lol now he's arguing that the McLaren was only 0.100 slower than the Brawn in the early part of the season


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:07 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
lunatic wrote:
Hamilton has beaten two world champions in their prime in equal cars, Alonso hasn't and neither has Vettel, so before you Ham haters start beating on him just remember that fact, oh and apart from Alonso partnering Hamilton (when he was beaten) what strong team mates has Alonso and Vettel had?


he also lost to button in equal machinery both over a season and in total points together as teammates.
on top of that he hanst beaten vettel or alonso in 3 years and was also beaten by a lotus this year despite driving the fastest car of 2012

just saying


So what if Lewis did lost to Button ?, even in the 2010 season Lewis had more DNF due car problems on higher positions than Button so what your point ?, did not Vettel lost in quali to Webber this season ?. Both Vettel and Alonso need their No1 status otherwise they would be exposed as above average


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:13 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
lol now he's arguing that the McLaren was only 0.100 slower than the Brawn in the early part of the season



Not arguing check the link. Its the formula one site and written there not by me.

Heres pf1s take

Quote:
The team's rate of development since February has been staggering. A car that was two seconds adrift in the final test of the winter is now less than half a second away. It has been an incredible turnaround from a team enveloped by a debilitating crisis since Australia.


http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3265/5243974

The mirror

Quote:
Lewis Hamilton quickest in Bahrain
24 Apr 2009 13:29

Lewis Hamilton topped the first practice session in the sweltering heat of Bahrain.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1 ... ain-390108

And if you compare fastest laps the '12 car was comparably slower around Bahrain than the '09 car.

1 9 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:34.556
3 22 Jenson Button 1:34.588
6 1 Lewis Hamilton 1:34.915
Difference of 0.359
1 1 Sebastian Vettel 1:36.379
7 4 Lewis Hamilton 1:37.733
difference of 1.354


http://www.formula1.com/results/season/ ... _laps.html

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/ ... _laps.html

Make your own conclusions.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:17 pm 
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Posts: 62
Jim wrote:
Vettelmessi wrote:
lunatic wrote:
Hamilton has beaten two world champions in their prime in equal cars, Alonso hasn't and neither has Vettel, so before you Ham haters start beating on him just remember that fact, oh and apart from Alonso partnering Hamilton (when he was beaten) what strong team mates has Alonso and Vettel had?


he also lost to button in equal machinery both over a season and in total points together as teammates.
on top of that he hanst beaten vettel or alonso in 3 years and was also beaten by a lotus this year despite driving the fastest car of 2012

just saying


So what if Lewis did lost to Button ?, even in the 2010 season Lewis had more DNF due car problems on higher positions than Button so what your point ?, did not Vettel lost in quali to Webber this season ?. Both Vettel and Alonso need their No1 status otherwise they would be exposed as above average



Hamiltons only title came when he was made a clear number 1 did it not? Mclaren had the fastest car this year yet hamilton was beaten by drivers from 3 different teams. I don't buy into all this DNF crap, hamilton is reckless/overly aggressive with his car and causes most of them himself.

i couldnt imagine vettel or alonso being outscored by button over 3 years, that's gotta hurt


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:18 pm 
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Posts: 108
Johnston wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
lol now he's arguing that the McLaren was only 0.100 slower than the Brawn in the early part of the season



Not arguing check the link. Its the formula one site and written there not by me.

Heres pf1s take

Quote:
The team's rate of development since February has been staggering. A car that was two seconds adrift in the final test of the winter is now less than half a second away. It has been an incredible turnaround from a team enveloped by a debilitating crisis since Australia.


http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3265/5243974

The mirror

Quote:
Lewis Hamilton quickest in Bahrain
24 Apr 2009 13:29

Lewis Hamilton topped the first practice session in the sweltering heat of Bahrain.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1 ... ain-390108

And if you compare fastest laps the '12 car was comparably slower around Bahrain than the '09 car.

1 9 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:34.556
3 22 Jenson Button 1:34.588
6 1 Lewis Hamilton 1:34.915
Difference of 0.359
1 1 Sebastian Vettel 1:36.379
7 4 Lewis Hamilton 1:37.733
difference of 1.354


http://www.formula1.com/results/season/ ... _laps.html

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/ ... _laps.html

Make your own conclusions.

How come you know so much about Lewis while you are no Lewis supporter mate, it's seams that you even have favorite the Lewis topics in your computer :nod:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:24 pm 
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Memories quite good now I've dropped the meds and google is your friend .

It's not about following or not following a driver. It's about following F1.

I was watching F1 whilst some of this lot were still a twinkle in their daddies eye. Seen plenty of drivers come and go. If I was just watching it to follow one driver I would have stopped following a long time ago.

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