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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:47 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Jim wrote:
wj_gibson wrote:
I often like Jody Scheckter but I find his reasoning on Alonso to be stupid. For one, it's 2012 not 2007. For another, Alonso's alleged actions in 2007 have little to do with on track performance. Finally, Alonso isn't allowed to talk about 2007 because of the afore mentioned NDA. So the full story of 2007 simply isn't known.


You can't blame Scheckter, look how Ferrari had to handicap Massa just to make Alonso look good

Look how Ferrari ordered Gilles Villeneuve to play No.2 to allow Scheckter win his one and only title.

(I may be a bit late reading this story but...)
I can't believe Jody Scheckter came out with this. His problem with Alonso is more or less that Alonso hit back when he wasn't given No.1 status. Scheckter himself relied on No.1 status to claim the 1979 WDC. Absolute hypocrite.

so how exactly is Scheckter being a hypocrite? did he say anything about disliking the fact that Alonso is #1? he said his problem with Alonso has to do with his involvement in the spy scandal.
what has that got to do with Ferrari and #1 status? :uhoh:

Oh come on! Scheckter doesn't mention the spy scandal once.

It should be obvious to see he's referring to Alonso's poor reaction to not getting preferential treatment. And I find it hypocritical when it comes from a man whose 1 WDC relied on preferential treatment.

neither does he say anything about preferential treatment and #1 status.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:50 pm 
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I think Sheckter is forgetting Hamilton wasn't innocent in 2007 himself. He was very lucky he was the young pup just starting out and his mistakes were more forgivable back then. He was also lucky to have Dennis on his side 100%' it was clear from Monaco onward Alonso didn't.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:39 pm 
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If Jody Scheckter has the same opinion of McLaren as he does of Alonso, then I will disagree with but respect his opinion. If he doesn't though, I will call him a hypocrite, and ignore his opinion for being inconsistent and irrelevant.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:44 pm 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
What did Alonso do in '07? McLaren made him sign a NDA to prevent him from speaking about it, even just to defend himself. Now that smells like a rotten business to me. Why silence someone if you're innocent? It just doesn't add up. We have Ron, WMSC, FIA and McLaren's version, but not Alonso's. What is worrying is no one in media seems to ask this question aloud.


That can be looked at the other way around. If Alonso had nothing to hide, why sign the NDA? Most people sign them in order to secure financial settlements, but he didn't need the money. Other than that I don't see that a gun would have been put to his head.

As for Scheckter's comments, IMO he is not saying that he thinks Vettel and Hamilton are better drivers than Alonso but that he would choose them for a team he was running over Alonso. On that I agree with him. Alonso is IMO too much of a liability when it comes to team harmony as he can be pretty outrageous when he's unhappy or under pressure. TBH I have questionmarks about Hamilton as well due to his tweeting this year, but hopefully that was a mistake and something from which he's learnt.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:07 pm 
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kai_ wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
What did Alonso do in '07? McLaren made him sign a NDA to prevent him from speaking about it, even just to defend himself. Now that smells like a rotten business to me. Why silence someone if you're innocent? It just doesn't add up. We have Ron, WMSC, FIA and McLaren's version, but not Alonso's. What is worrying is no one in media seems to ask this question aloud.


That can be looked at the other way around. If Alonso had nothing to hide, why sign the NDA? Most people sign them in order to secure financial settlements, but he didn't need the money. Other than that I don't see that a gun would have been put to his head.

As for Scheckter's comments, IMO he is not saying that he thinks Vettel and Hamilton are better drivers than Alonso but that he would choose them for a team he was running over Alonso. On that I agree with him. Alonso is IMO too much of a liability when it comes to team harmony as he can be pretty outrageous when he's unhappy or under pressure. TBH I have questionmarks about Hamilton as well due to his tweeting this year, but hopefully that was a mistake and something from which he's learnt.

Well, there was a gun to his head. McLaren could have held him to his contract and not let him race for two years left on the contract. How do you suppose that would have had ended for Alonso, and mind you at that time press didn't give much of a crap about him either, so he would've been screwed, proper. So I ask you, what would you have had done in his place.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:32 am 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
kai_ wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
What did Alonso do in '07? McLaren made him sign a NDA to prevent him from speaking about it, even just to defend himself. Now that smells like a rotten business to me. Why silence someone if you're innocent? It just doesn't add up. We have Ron, WMSC, FIA and McLaren's version, but not Alonso's. What is worrying is no one in media seems to ask this question aloud.


That can be looked at the other way around. If Alonso had nothing to hide, why sign the NDA? Most people sign them in order to secure financial settlements, but he didn't need the money. Other than that I don't see that a gun would have been put to his head.

As for Scheckter's comments, IMO he is not saying that he thinks Vettel and Hamilton are better drivers than Alonso but that he would choose them for a team he was running over Alonso. On that I agree with him. Alonso is IMO too much of a liability when it comes to team harmony as he can be pretty outrageous when he's unhappy or under pressure. TBH I have questionmarks about Hamilton as well due to his tweeting this year, but hopefully that was a mistake and something from which he's learnt.

Well, there was a gun to his head. McLaren could have held him to his contract and not let him race for two years left on the contract. How do you suppose that would have had ended for Alonso, and mind you at that time press didn't give much of a crap about him either, so he would've been screwed, proper. So I ask you, what would you have had done in his place.

They could have tried to hold him to his contract, which would have resulted in him racing for them for two years. The racing driver contracts of the major drivers always include the race clause and given Alonso's interests were looked after by Briatore who is masterful at manipulating contractual situations in his favour I'm sure his would have included that.

Regardless of that element, though, Alonso could have gone to court to try to get out of that contract and there would have been many avenues for argument on principle and that's without even knowing the specifics of the contract, which would have had some standard get-out clauses.

In his position, if I had done nothing to be ashamed of and been severely mistreated by the team who were also making up rubbish about me I would NOT have signed an NDA. I don't just say that in theory, either. I mean, I've not been a racing driver but I have been in a situation where it was my job and a lot of money or blow the whistle on principle and I chose the latter option.

If he had nothing to be ashamed of then an NDA doesn't really make sense to me. His reputation has been severely damaged by what we do know and, in fact, he spent 2 years in the wilderness at Renault anyway as a result of what happened at McLaren. And ultimately we know Alonso was not clean in that situation from the evidence that was presented at the WMSC hearing. So there were benefits to an NDA from his perspective as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:21 am 
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kai_ wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
kai_ wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
What did Alonso do in '07? McLaren made him sign a NDA to prevent him from speaking about it, even just to defend himself. Now that smells like a rotten business to me. Why silence someone if you're innocent? It just doesn't add up. We have Ron, WMSC, FIA and McLaren's version, but not Alonso's. What is worrying is no one in media seems to ask this question aloud.


That can be looked at the other way around. If Alonso had nothing to hide, why sign the NDA? Most people sign them in order to secure financial settlements, but he didn't need the money. Other than that I don't see that a gun would have been put to his head.

As for Scheckter's comments, IMO he is not saying that he thinks Vettel and Hamilton are better drivers than Alonso but that he would choose them for a team he was running over Alonso. On that I agree with him. Alonso is IMO too much of a liability when it comes to team harmony as he can be pretty outrageous when he's unhappy or under pressure. TBH I have questionmarks about Hamilton as well due to his tweeting this year, but hopefully that was a mistake and something from which he's learnt.

Well, there was a gun to his head. McLaren could have held him to his contract and not let him race for two years left on the contract. How do you suppose that would have had ended for Alonso, and mind you at that time press didn't give much of a crap about him either, so he would've been screwed, proper. So I ask you, what would you have had done in his place.

They could have tried to hold him to his contract, which would have resulted in him racing for them for two years. The racing driver contracts of the major drivers always include the race clause and given Alonso's interests were looked after by Briatore who is masterful at manipulating contractual situations in his favour I'm sure his would have included that.

Regardless of that element, though, Alonso could have gone to court to try to get out of that contract and there would have been many avenues for argument on principle and that's without even knowing the specifics of the contract, which would have had some standard get-out clauses.

In his position, if I had done nothing to be ashamed of and been severely mistreated by the team who were also making up rubbish about me I would NOT have signed an NDA. I don't just say that in theory, either. I mean, I've not been a racing driver but I have been in a situation where it was my job and a lot of money or blow the whistle on principle and I chose the latter option.

If he had nothing to be ashamed of then an NDA doesn't really make sense to me. His reputation has been severely damaged by what we do know and, in fact, he spent 2 years in the wilderness at Renault anyway as a result of what happened at McLaren. And ultimately we know Alonso IIwas not clean in that situation from the evidence that was presented at the WMSC hearing. So there were benefits to an NDA from his perspective as well.

Well, good on you that you chose to blow the whistle... I've taken stand a fair few times on a matter of principle, but come out worse off as a result. Nevertheless, do you know how many drivers race in a season in F1, and then imagine Alonso's position on NDA. On one hand, he gets a clean break and continue to drive in F1, and on the other possibly sit out two years and watch the world go right past him. We nearly never had so much to lose, as Alonso risked to, so it is not quite right on our part to judge him too harshly for that.

McLaren's '08 car was to be reviewed before the season began, when McLaren made an official apology in a letter signed by Martin Whitmarsh. Not just that, they agreed to cease development in 3 areas. Now unless one is a big McLaren fan and has an axe to grind against Alonso, it is hard to think Alonso was more guilty than anyone else at McLaren. Unless, you really, truly believe that their MD who'd personally ask for a lightbulb to be changed, wouldn't know whatever's going on with what was their bread and butter for 4 decades now.

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3) Fangio
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5) Brabham

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:00 am 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
kai_ wrote:
They could have tried to hold him to his contract, which would have resulted in him racing for them for two years. The racing driver contracts of the major drivers always include the race clause and given Alonso's interests were looked after by Briatore who is masterful at manipulating contractual situations in his favour I'm sure his would have included that.

Regardless of that element, though, Alonso could have gone to court to try to get out of that contract and there would have been many avenues for argument on principle and that's without even knowing the specifics of the contract, which would have had some standard get-out clauses.

In his position, if I had done nothing to be ashamed of and been severely mistreated by the team who were also making up rubbish about me I would NOT have signed an NDA. I don't just say that in theory, either. I mean, I've not been a racing driver but I have been in a situation where it was my job and a lot of money or blow the whistle on principle and I chose the latter option.

If he had nothing to be ashamed of then an NDA doesn't really make sense to me. His reputation has been severely damaged by what we do know and, in fact, he spent 2 years in the wilderness at Renault anyway as a result of what happened at McLaren. And ultimately we know Alonso IIwas not clean in that situation from the evidence that was presented at the WMSC hearing. So there were benefits to an NDA from his perspective as well.

Well, good on you that you chose to blow the whistle... I've taken stand a fair few times on a matter of principle, but come out worse off as a result. Nevertheless, do you know how many drivers race in a season in F1, and then imagine Alonso's position on NDA. On one hand, he gets a clean break and continue to drive in F1, and on the other possibly sit out two years and watch the world go right past him. We nearly never had so much to lose, as Alonso risked to, so it is not quite right on our part to judge him too harshly for that.

McLaren's '08 car was to be reviewed before the season began, when McLaren made an official apology in a letter signed by Martin Whitmarsh. Not just that, they agreed to cease development in 3 areas. Now unless one is a big McLaren fan and has an axe to grind against Alonso, it is hard to think Alonso was more guilty than anyone else at McLaren. Unless, you really, truly believe that their MD who'd personally ask for a lightbulb to be changed, wouldn't know whatever's going on with what was their bread and butter for 4 decades now.

You're changing the scope of the discussion. We are debating the assumption that an NDA only benefitted McLaren regarding Spygate and that Alonso had no choice but to sign one and also whether Alonso's behaviour was outrageous, not the relative guilt or innocence of the various individuals at McLaren.

Your response doesn't alter my point from my previous post. I said that he could have gotten out of the contract without agreeing to the NDA. He also had in his favour the fact that Renault, run by Briatore, would have taken him back at any point so his driving future was secure and would have been the same regardless of whether he signed the NDA or not. The way I see it the only reason Alonso had to sign an NDA is that it was mutually beneficial, not just beneficial to McLaren. There was no gun to his head and he had options.

He also had ample time prior to that NDA to come out and defend himself. His involvement in the whole matter was documented extensively during the year, including on record in the WMSC hearing transcript. Moreover, the NDA only stops HIM talking about it; it doesn't stop people associated with him leaking information to the press in his defence. I have never heard anyone even remotely dispute the story as to him attempting to blackmail Dennis and then revealing what was going on to the FIA when he didn't get his own way.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:47 am 
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kai_ wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
kai_ wrote:
They could have tried to hold him to his contract, which would have resulted in him racing for them for two years. The racing driver contracts of the major drivers always include the race clause and given Alonso's interests were looked after by Briatore who is masterful at manipulating contractual situations in his favour I'm sure his would have included that.

Regardless of that element, though, Alonso could have gone to court to try to get out of that contract and there would have been many avenues for argument on principle and that's without even knowing the specifics of the contract, which would have had some standard get-out clauses.

In his position, if I had done nothing to be ashamed of and been severely mistreated by the team who were also making up rubbish about me I would NOT have signed an NDA. I don't just say that in theory, either. I mean, I've not been a racing driver but I have been in a situation where it was my job and a lot of money or blow the whistle on principle and I chose the latter option.

If he had nothing to be ashamed of then an NDA doesn't really make sense to me. His reputation has been severely damaged by what we do know and, in fact, he spent 2 years in the wilderness at Renault anyway as a result of what happened at McLaren. And ultimately we know Alonso IIwas not clean in that situation from the evidence that was presented at the WMSC hearing. So there were benefits to an NDA from his perspective as well.

Well, good on you that you chose to blow the whistle... I've taken stand a fair few times on a matter of principle, but come out worse off as a result. Nevertheless, do you know how many drivers race in a season in F1, and then imagine Alonso's position on NDA. On one hand, he gets a clean break and continue to drive in F1, and on the other possibly sit out two years and watch the world go right past him. We nearly never had so much to lose, as Alonso risked to, so it is not quite right on our part to judge him too harshly for that.

McLaren's '08 car was to be reviewed before the season began, when McLaren made an official apology in a letter signed by Martin Whitmarsh. Not just that, they agreed to cease development in 3 areas. Now unless one is a big McLaren fan and has an axe to grind against Alonso, it is hard to think Alonso was more guilty than anyone else at McLaren. Unless, you really, truly believe that their MD who'd personally ask for a lightbulb to be changed, wouldn't know whatever's going on with what was their bread and butter for 4 decades now.

You're changing the scope of the discussion. We are debating the assumption that an NDA only benefitted McLaren regarding Spygate and that Alonso had no choice but to sign one and also whether Alonso's behaviour was outrageous, not the relative guilt or innocence of the various individuals at McLaren.

Your response doesn't alter my point from my previous post. I said that he could have gotten out of the contract without agreeing to the NDA. He also had in his favour the fact that Renault, run by Briatore, would have taken him back at any point so his driving future was secure and would have been the same regardless of whether he signed the NDA or not. The way I see it the only reason Alonso had to sign an NDA is that it was mutually beneficial, not just beneficial to McLaren. There was no gun to his head and he had options.

He also had ample time prior to that NDA to come out and defend himself. His involvement in the whole matter was documented extensively during the year, including on record in the WMSC hearing transcript. Moreover, the NDA only stops HIM talking about it; it doesn't stop people associated with him leaking information to the press in his defence. I have never heard anyone even remotely dispute the story as to him attempting to blackmail Dennis and then revealing what was going on to the FIA when he didn't get his own way.

No! I didn't change the scope... you brought up how Alonso wasn't clean. I was merely pointing out that Alonso isn't a manufacturer, but a mere racing driver, who had a lot at stake around the end of '07. His release by McLaren was tied in with a NDA, and most of us in his position would've done the same. Between McLaren and Alonso, it is not hard to see who gains more with a gag on the other.

I don't know if you keep up on personnel changes, but McLaren has the worst track record when it comes to releasing star employees. They usually grovel to get an early release from other teams, but rarely return the favour. A case in point was one chap leaving to join Caterham, who was asked to go on gardening leave till his contract was over proper. Would you have taken a kinder view on Alonso's plight, if that were to be the outcome for him? Also, what does it help Alonso? In that a racing driver's career is rather short, and could you justify such stupid risk taking against a company, which is rather hard nosed about releasing employees earlier?

Let me say it once again for what it is worth... no matter how good we are at what we do, at no point in time we had as much to lose as Alonso did. In that light it is unreasonable to expect him to take a moral highground which may ultimately jeopardise his career. Also, most people respond to things differently. It doesn't mean choices made by others are wrong or less than perfect (which they very well may be, but it is immaterial), it is in essence different. I think people and media were, and some still are too harsh on him and his actions. For the English speaking media, it was easy to do as Alonso is Spanish, and Ron and his McLaren are British. I can tell you that a lot of McLaren fans have difficulty even today, to look past '07 when it comes to Alonso.

Last, but certainly not the least is a quote from Martin from some time ago, "we could have handled Alonso better." Again, don't you think it would be something that McLaren would want him to keep quiet about.

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
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3) Fangio
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5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:52 pm 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
No! I didn't change the scope... you brought up how Alonso wasn't clean. I was merely pointing out that Alonso isn't a manufacturer, but a mere racing driver, who had a lot at stake around the end of '07. His release by McLaren was tied in with a NDA, and most of us in his position would've done the same. Between McLaren and Alonso, it is not hard to see who gains more with a gag on the other.

I don't know if you keep up on personnel changes, but McLaren has the worst track record when it comes to releasing star employees. They usually grovel to get an early release from other teams, but rarely return the favour. A case in point was one chap leaving to join Caterham, who was asked to go on gardening leave till his contract was over proper. Would you have taken a kinder view on Alonso's plight, if that were to be the outcome for him? Also, what does it help Alonso? In that a racing driver's career is rather short, and could you justify such stupid risk taking against a company, which is rather hard nosed about releasing employees earlier?

Let me say it once again for what it is worth... no matter how good we are at what we do, at no point in time we had as much to lose as Alonso did. In that light it is unreasonable to expect him to take a moral highground which may ultimately jeopardise his career. Also, most people respond to things differently. It doesn't mean choices made by others are wrong or less than perfect (which they very well may be, but it is immaterial), it is in essence different. I think people and media were, and some still are too harsh on him and his actions. For the English speaking media, it was easy to do as Alonso is Spanish, and Ron and his McLaren are British. I can tell you that a lot of McLaren fans have difficulty even today, to look past '07 when it comes to Alonso.

Last, but certainly not the least is a quote from Martin from some time ago, "we could have handled Alonso better." Again, don't you think it would be something that McLaren would want him to keep quiet about.

Your original post stated the following.

garagetinkerer wrote:
What did Alonso do in '07? McLaren made him sign a NDA to prevent him from speaking about it, even just to defend himself. Now that smells like a rotten business to me. Why silence someone if you're innocent? It just doesn't add up. We have Ron, WMSC, FIA and McLaren's version, but not Alonso's. What is worrying is no one in media seems to ask this question aloud.


This is the point I was answering.

We know what Alonso did because it's on record from the WMSC hearing regarding the whole Spygate matter. Prior to the signing of the NDA at the end of the season he had ample time to come out and give his version of events if it differed, but he didn't. Briatore, who is most certainly firmly in the Alonso camp, has also confirmed the accepted version of events.

It's standard practice in the termination of most F1 contracts that engineers are required to wait a year before joining another team or at least wait out the period of their contract. This is to protect the information regarding car development. Now if McLaren's NDA with Alonso related to the car and development, that's different, but then that's a standard NDA and my understanding was that we were talking about this NDA in reference to Spygate and your perspective that it was necessary for him to sign one to get out of his McLaren contract.

Which I disgaree with, as explained.

Moreover, I think that the NDA was mutually beneficial to both parties and did not necessarily benefit McLaren more than Alonso. Alonso, based on the aforementioned information, got up to some very naughty things while he was at McLaren and I can see it being to his benefit to keep that dirty laundry from being aired as well. I don't think anybody associated with that mess wants it rehashed over and over again in the press. And beyond even that, if Alonso was completely innocent in the whole matter and had been falsely identified as having attempted to blackmail his boss, it was to his benefit to put forward his side of the story at some point. His reputation suffered quite a lot from that and if rectification was possible I'm sure Briatore would have been onto it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:05 pm 
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kai_ wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
No! I didn't change the scope... you brought up how Alonso wasn't clean. I was merely pointing out that Alonso isn't a manufacturer, but a mere racing driver, who had a lot at stake around the end of '07. His release by McLaren was tied in with a NDA, and most of us in his position would've done the same. Between McLaren and Alonso, it is not hard to see who gains more with a gag on the other.

I don't know if you keep up on personnel changes, but McLaren has the worst track record when it comes to releasing star employees. They usually grovel to get an early release from other teams, but rarely return the favour. A case in point was one chap leaving to join Caterham, who was asked to go on gardening leave till his contract was over proper. Would you have taken a kinder view on Alonso's plight, if that were to be the outcome for him? Also, what does it help Alonso? In that a racing driver's career is rather short, and could you justify such stupid risk taking against a company, which is rather hard nosed about releasing employees earlier?

Let me say it once again for what it is worth... no matter how good we are at what we do, at no point in time we had as much to lose as Alonso did. In that light it is unreasonable to expect him to take a moral highground which may ultimately jeopardise his career. Also, most people respond to things differently. It doesn't mean choices made by others are wrong or less than perfect (which they very well may be, but it is immaterial), it is in essence different. I think people and media were, and some still are too harsh on him and his actions. For the English speaking media, it was easy to do as Alonso is Spanish, and Ron and his McLaren are British. I can tell you that a lot of McLaren fans have difficulty even today, to look past '07 when it comes to Alonso.

Last, but certainly not the least is a quote from Martin from some time ago, "we could have handled Alonso better." Again, don't you think it would be something that McLaren would want him to keep quiet about.

Your original post stated the following.

garagetinkerer wrote:
What did Alonso do in '07? McLaren made him sign a NDA to prevent him from speaking about it, even just to defend himself. Now that smells like a rotten business to me. Why silence someone if you're innocent? It just doesn't add up. We have Ron, WMSC, FIA and McLaren's version, but not Alonso's. What is worrying is no one in media seems to ask this question aloud.


This is the point I was answering.

We know what Alonso did because it's on record from the WMSC hearing regarding the whole Spygate matter. Prior to the signing of the NDA at the end of the season he had ample time to come out and give his version of events if it differed, but he didn't. Briatore, who is most certainly firmly in the Alonso camp, has also confirmed the accepted version of events.

It's standard practice in the termination of most F1 contracts that engineers are required to wait a year before joining another team or at least wait out the period of their contract. This is to protect the information regarding car development. Now if McLaren's NDA with Alonso related to the car and development, that's different, but then that's a standard NDA and my understanding was that we were talking about this NDA in reference to Spygate and your perspective that it was necessary for him to sign one to get out of his McLaren contract.

Which I disgaree with, as explained.

Moreover, I think that the NDA was mutually beneficial to both parties and did not necessarily benefit McLaren more than Alonso. Alonso, based on the aforementioned information, got up to some very naughty things while he was at McLaren and I can see it being to his benefit to keep that dirty laundry from being aired as well. I don't think anybody associated with that mess wants it rehashed over and over again in the press. And beyond even that, if Alonso was completely innocent in the whole matter and had been falsely identified as having attempted to blackmail his boss, it was to his benefit to put forward his side of the story at some point. His reputation suffered quite a lot from that and if rectification was possible I'm sure Briatore would have been onto it.

It is not my perspective, but words from Alonso when a reporter asked his views on Spygate. It was then he mentioned that he has a NDA which prevents him from speaking about it. Surely McLaren knew whatever was going on, Alonso and PDR are not exactly development engineers, or are they? Do you think that FIA and WMSC asked him to keep quiet after he approached them? Unless you know more than what you've repeated, you're basing every bit of your argument on what Ron said. Do not forget that Ron said with tears to go along that McLaren didn't cheat, and we all know how that turned out.

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:37 pm 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
It is not my perspective, but words from Alonso when a reporter asked his views on Spygate. It was then he mentioned that he has a NDA which prevents him from speaking about it. Surely McLaren knew whatever was going on, Alonso and PDR are not exactly development engineers, or are they? Do you think that FIA and WMSC asked him to keep quiet after he approached them? Unless you know more than what you've repeated, you're basing every bit of your argument on what Ron said. Do not forget that Ron said with tears to go along that McLaren didn't cheat, and we all know how that turned out.

I didn't offer my opinions on what I thought of McLaren in this situation as we were discussing Alonso. Just because I have said that I thought Alonso's behaviour was outrageous doesn't mean I don't have equally negative opinions about McLaren. But equally, whatever McLaren did or how they behaved doesn't mitigate what Alonso did.

We may, however, be talking slightly crossed purposes. My position on Alonso has nothing to do with Spygate itself. A good proportion of the organisation was involved and the responsibility for that rests with the Coughlan and the most senior people who knew and were directing the analysis and testing of Ferrari's information. In the scheme of that Alonso was a bit-player like every other employee in the team who was involved. Where my comments regarding Alonso come from and what I'm talking about with his involvement is that he tried to blackmail his boss at the Hungarian Grand Prix. That was his decision alone and it was behaviour that reflects very badly on him: when he didn't get his own way he had no boundaries whatsoever to what he would and wouldn't do.

The NDA benefits him as well because it's as detrimental to his reputation if that keeps being hashed and rehashed repeatedly in the press. He can't explain that away whatever he says.

Going back to the subject of the thread, that's why I agree with Scheckter saying he'd prefer Vettel and Hamilton in a team to Alonso. If Alonso is unhappy or under pressure there's no telling what he might say or do. He's totally untrustworthy and there's a lot of potential for a negative impact on team morale and team harmony. This doesn't just come from Spygate, which was the most extreme of all the situations. In 2006 he dumped on his own Renault team claiming that they didn't want him to win the WDC. I thought he might have changed and learnt his lesson, but in 2012 he went to the press with criticisms of Ferrari not bringing planned updates.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:46 am 
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kai_ wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
It is not my perspective, but words from Alonso when a reporter asked his views on Spygate. It was then he mentioned that he has a NDA which prevents him from speaking about it. Surely McLaren knew whatever was going on, Alonso and PDR are not exactly development engineers, or are they? Do you think that FIA and WMSC asked him to keep quiet after he approached them? Unless you know more than what you've repeated, you're basing every bit of your argument on what Ron said. Do not forget that Ron said with tears to go along that McLaren didn't cheat, and we all know how that turned out.

I didn't offer my opinions on what I thought of McLaren in this situation as we were discussing Alonso. Just because I have said that I thought Alonso's behaviour was outrageous doesn't mean I don't have equally negative opinions about McLaren. But equally, whatever McLaren did or how they behaved doesn't mitigate what Alonso did.

We may, however, be talking slightly crossed purposes. My position on Alonso has nothing to do with Spygate itself. A good proportion of the organisation was involved and the responsibility for that rests with the Coughlan and the most senior people who knew and were directing the analysis and testing of Ferrari's information. In the scheme of that Alonso was a bit-player like every other employee in the team who was involved. Where my comments regarding Alonso come from and what I'm talking about with his involvement is that he tried to blackmail his boss at the Hungarian Grand Prix. That was his decision alone and it was behaviour that reflects very badly on him: when he didn't get his own way he had no boundaries whatsoever to what he would and wouldn't do.

The NDA benefits him as well because it's as detrimental to his reputation if that keeps being hashed and rehashed repeatedly in the press. He can't explain that away whatever he says.

Going back to the subject of the thread, that's why I agree with Scheckter saying he'd prefer Vettel and Hamilton in a team to Alonso. If Alonso is unhappy or under pressure there's no telling what he might say or do. He's totally untrustworthy and there's a lot of potential for a negative impact on team morale and team harmony. This doesn't just come from Spygate, which was the most extreme of all the situations. In 2006 he dumped on his own Renault team claiming that they didn't want him to win the WDC. I thought he might have changed and learnt his lesson, but in 2012 he went to the press with criticisms of Ferrari not bringing planned updates.

I guess i'm going to leave at Ron's credibility wrt spygate, which involved tears for effect. All this while suggesting innocence on behalf of team McLaren. He lied! Why should we blindly trust him?

Do not get me started on 2012. I think it was despicable on both his and Lewis' part to take a dump at Vettel. If you think you can race, do it on the track and not in a press conference.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:16 am 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
I guess i'm going to leave at Ron's credibility wrt spygate, which involved tears for effect. All this while suggesting innocence on behalf of team McLaren. He lied! Why should we blindly trust him?

Do not get me started on 2012. I think it was despicable on both his and Lewis' part to take a dump at Vettel. If you think you can race, do it on the track and not in a press conference.

I'm genuinely not sure what you mean about Dennis' credibility in terms of how it alters what Alonso did at the Hungarian GP. If you mean that we can't trust Dennis that that's what happened, we don't need to. It was confirmed by members of the FIA, by Ecclestone and by Briatore.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:03 am 
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kai_ wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
I guess i'm going to leave at Ron's credibility wrt spygate, which involved tears for effect. All this while suggesting innocence on behalf of team McLaren. He lied! Why should we blindly trust him?

Do not get me started on 2012. I think it was despicable on both his and Lewis' part to take a dump at Vettel. If you think you can race, do it on the track and not in a press conference.

I'm genuinely not sure what you mean about Dennis' credibility in terms of how it alters what Alonso did at the Hungarian GP. If you mean that we can't trust Dennis that that's what happened, we don't need to. It was confirmed by members of the FIA, by Ecclestone and by Briatore.


I presented a situation where Ron fibbed, and no small one at that. I'm saying he lied and shed crocodile tears. How do we trust his words? Did FIA use the word "blackmail", or did Briatore for that matter? It was merely Ron who suggested that he was blackmailed. FIA and Briatore both merely acknowledged help from Alonso, but no one said anything about blackmail but Ron. As you said, Briatore was Alonso's manager, so don't you think it was reasonable for Alonso to discuss his work situation with him?

I was just thinking about it... another potential scenario... Alonso is Spanish, and when he was at McLaren, his English wasn't as good as it is now (which is passable at best). may be he plainly/ simply had screwed up with some words, whose connotations he didn't properly understand... Everything is possible. However, one thing is for sure that he isn't allowed to speak on it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:23 am 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
kai_ wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
I guess i'm going to leave at Ron's credibility wrt spygate, which involved tears for effect. All this while suggesting innocence on behalf of team McLaren. He lied! Why should we blindly trust him?

Do not get me started on 2012. I think it was despicable on both his and Lewis' part to take a dump at Vettel. If you think you can race, do it on the track and not in a press conference.

I'm genuinely not sure what you mean about Dennis' credibility in terms of how it alters what Alonso did at the Hungarian GP. If you mean that we can't trust Dennis that that's what happened, we don't need to. It was confirmed by members of the FIA, by Ecclestone and by Briatore.


I presented a situation where Ron fibbed, and no small one at that. I'm saying he lied and shed crocodile tears. How do we trust his words? Did FIA use the word "blackmail", or did Briatore for that matter? It was merely Ron who suggested that he was blackmailed. FIA and Briatore both merely acknowledged help from Alonso, but no one said anything about blackmail but Ron. As you said, Briatore was Alonso's manager, so don't you think it was reasonable for Alonso to discuss his work situation with him?

I was just thinking about it... another potential scenario... Alonso is Spanish, and when he was at McLaren, his English wasn't as good as it is now (which is passable at best). may be he plainly/ simply had screwed up with some words, whose connotations he didn't properly understand... Everything is possible. However, one thing is for sure that he isn't allowed to speak on it.

It's not about what anyone labelled the incident. It's about what happened and the definition of what happened is in fact blackmail; hence that is why that label has been applied by the press and people discussing the issue.

Alonso had ample time to dispute the version of events that was put forward before the NDA was signed at the end of the year. He didn't. Briatore has been able at any point to dispute it. He hasn't. Indeed the latter has confirmed the sequence of events.

I see what you're saying but I don't think it makes logical sense. Alonso visited Dennis in his office on the weekend of the Hungarian GP subsequent to which Dennis called Mosley claiming Alonso had threatened him with regards to the Ferrari dossier subsequent to which Alonso did in fact reveal the information to the FIA. He had been aware of that information for several months, had participated in its use, but after that particular weekend he chose to reveal it. If Alonso was just doing it because he was tiddled off, why visit Dennis first? If Alonso was doing it because it was weighing on his conscience, why wait until that particular weekend? And again, if Alonso was being falsely accused of threatening Dennis, why not defend himself when he had the opportunity?

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