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Rate Vettel as driver
Is the best, and becomes better. 25%  25%  [ 49 ]
Is roughly at level with Hamilton and Alonso. 44%  44%  [ 88 ]
Is good, but a step below the otther two. 27%  27%  [ 53 ]
Till he don´t drives the best car is nonsense say. 4%  4%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 198
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:00 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
I've heard others do it - Alonso just wants to make sure he can continue to capitalize on others' errors.

Fair point, but at every single opportunity he seems to be bellowing into the radio at that waiter with the cans on, whats his name???


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:41 am 
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Nothing wrong with trying to gain every possible advantage. No matter how charming or charismatic they may be to Lee McKenzie, they are all ruthless, and they have to be.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:37 pm 
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veemax wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
I've heard others do it - Alonso just wants to make sure he can continue to capitalize on others' errors.

Fair point, but at every single opportunity he seems to be bellowing into the radio at that waiter with the cans on, whats his name???

When you're driving to the limit, putting everything into pulling out the best possible performance and sticking within the rules, would you not feel cheated by others who gain any advantage that isn't within the rules? I know I would and I'd make damn sure I made everyone aware of it. Sometimes things done on-track aren't easily identified unless you are driving and drivers need to call attention to these things. Fair is fair and cheating is for scrubs!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:01 pm 
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sennafan24 wrote:
Incubus -If you really wanted people to stop talking about Senna, you really should have not give such a critical opinion of him which will spark some people to disagree with. I will take the high road though and stick to the subject so not to clog up the thread, which I will confess I did with my first post.

You brought it up so you need to live with it. I purposely expressed my viewpoint in such a way to serve as an example as to how anything Senna in a thread can turn things sour, especially in a thread where it is not needed. And as for people disagreeing with me, that's on them. I'm not some bandwagon 20-year old kid who has become a fan of the legend and folklore surrounding a man who died driving on the limit through campfire stories or at a book reading or movie club. I witnessed the man's entire career as it unfolded and enjoyed every moment of brilliance he provided and shuttered and shook my head in the times he allowed his arrogance and self righteousness cloud his judgement. I know he wasn't a bad person and genuinely cared about his fellow man, but sometimes in the heat of battle he would make downright boneheaded decisions that put lives at risk, including his own. And if you read my initial post again, you might pick up on the sarcasm. I did say the man was an all-time great and believe me when I say that May 1, 1994 is still one of the saddest and most shocking days of my entire life, but I guess all this simply means I must be a Senna hater.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:02 pm 
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It was not me who initially brought him up you cretin, it was someone else if you checked back the first page. Me and someone else just disagreed with someone taking a pot-shot at him out of nowhere. I will hold my hands up and say I should have ignored it.

Like I said I am not going to get into it how I disagree with your opinion as I do not want to clog up the thread even more than I have done. Its fair enough if you take exception to some of the things he did its understandable, no one is calling you a Senna hater.

Now back to Vettel.

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Last edited by sennafan24 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:06 pm 
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That's two uses of "cretin" this week :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Now 3! LOL

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:16 pm 
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Apologies for name calling, just thought it was pretty clear I was not the one who started sidetracking the thread, even though I am probably the most guilty of doing so at the moment.

So like I said, back to Vettel.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:21 pm 
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I'm a New Yorker, I have very thick skin.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:23 pm 
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:thumbup: :)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:34 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
I'm a New Yorker, I have very thick skin.

me too! :newyorkfistbump:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:38 pm 
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As most people say, it's about how well they do against their team mate, but this is hard with the Webber/Vettel pairing. Historically, even before being paired with Vettel, Webber is a fast starter, and slow finisher. Whether this is because he does well with a new car that is fairly neutral in its handling which he loses as the car develops to being more grippy at one end or the other, or if his focus or stamina fades as the season goes on I don't know, but one to the other seems to be the case.

Vettel on the other hand is the opposite, starts slower than he finishes. Now is he poor with a neutral car and improves as the car gets better, or does he come in out of shape and build his conditioning as the season goes on. I don't think the latter is the case so I'm going with the former, which to me shows that he does a good job of giving good feedback to the engineers that allow them to give him the car he wants. Which to me speaks to a part of "how good he is" as the ability to help the team develop the car is still important, even if not as much as it was in the past.

TLDR: Vettel is close on speed with Hamilton, has similar "big picture" insight to Alonso, and is able to aid the development of the car, and with time and room to grow.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Until he is sitting in rockesthip of a car alongside journeyman teammate with tons of reliability problems (gearboxes, DRS, KERS, differential - you name it), while his team gets away with spending the most money in F1 and breaking rules, we won't know. One thing is certain - in BMW he was 0.5 slower than Heidfeld and Kubica and in his first outing in Turkey he did terrible job in choosing tyres for the rest of the weekend, which was his task back then.

Some say Vettel did fantastic in Toro Rosso. Yes, he outqualified Bourdais 13-5 in 2008, but Buemi in 2009 repeated it by 7-2 and he was so 'good', that the same team fired him in 2011.

Monaco is the circuit where real talent shines. What Vettel achieved there? Except pole and win in 2011 in ultra dominant car nothing. Destroyed by Webber in 2012 and 2010, killed his tyres in 6 laps in 2009 and then crashed out and achieved 5th in 2008, which maybe looks good on paper, but Sutil in hopeless Force India was running 4th until Raikkonen rear ended his car, which of course benefitted Vettel.

Team him up wih Hulkenberg in Sauber and he won't be so smart anymore to call other drivers idiots or cucumbers. We saw how in a dominant machinery put in midfield he hit Senna and then DRS board in Abu Dhabi and how he turned into apex thinking no one is there in Brazil, taking out 2 cars out of the race, strangely not receiving penalty. Now imagine him driving in midfield with midfield car, it would be carnage out there.

Colliding with Karthikeyan in Malaysia, crying when he couldn't overtake in China, getting penalty for not slowing down under yellows in Spain, getting penalty for overtaking Button off track in Germany, crying "do something!" over radio in Hungary, pushing Alonso on grass in Italy and getting penalty again, insulting Narain after Austin - this doesn't sound like championship season, more like complete meltdown of a season, a la Hamilton in 2011, yet it indeed was Vettel's 3rd title crusade.

I hope Vettel has balls to test himself in other environment and I say it will be a true shock for him, his fans and all experts trying to make him god of F1.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:06 pm 
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Meltdowns don't often turn into title wins mate.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:17 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
Until he is sitting in rockesthip of a car alongside journeyman teammate with tons of reliability problems (gearboxes, DRS, KERS, differential - you name it), while his team gets away with spending the most money in F1 and breaking rules, we won't know. One thing is certain - in BMW he was 0.5 slower than Heidfeld and Kubica and in his first outing in Turkey he did terrible job in choosing tyres for the rest of the weekend, which was his task back then.

Some say Vettel did fantastic in Toro Rosso. Yes, he outqualified Bourdais 13-5 in 2008, but Buemi in 2009 repeated it by 7-2 and he was so 'good', that the same team fired him in 2011.

Monaco is the circuit where real talent shines. What Vettel achieved there? Except pole and win in 2011 in ultra dominant car nothing. Destroyed by Webber in 2012 and 2010, killed his tyres in 6 laps in 2009 and then crashed out and achieved 5th in 2008, which maybe looks good on paper, but Sutil in hopeless Force India was running 4th until Raikkonen rear ended his car, which of course benefitted Vettel.

Team him up wih Hulkenberg in Sauber and he won't be so smart anymore to call other drivers idiots or cucumbers. We saw how in a dominant machinery put in midfield he hit Senna and then DRS board in Abu Dhabi and how he turned into apex thinking no one is there in Brazil, taking out 2 cars out of the race, strangely not receiving penalty. Now imagine him driving in midfield with midfield car, it would be carnage out there.

Colliding with Karthikeyan in Malaysia, crying when he couldn't overtake in China, getting penalty for not slowing down under yellows in Spain, getting penalty for overtaking Button off track in Germany, crying "do something!" over radio in Hungary, pushing Alonso on grass in Italy and getting penalty again, insulting Narain after Austin - this doesn't sound like championship season, more like complete meltdown of a season, a la Hamilton in 2011, yet it indeed was Vettel's 3rd title crusade.

I hope Vettel has balls to test himself in other environment and I say it will be a true shock for him, his fans and all experts trying to make him god of F1.



this post is oozing with bitterness


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
Until he is sitting in rockesthip of a car alongside journeyman teammate with tons of reliability problems (gearboxes, DRS, KERS, differential - you name it), while his team gets away with spending the most money in F1 and breaking rules, we won't know. One thing is certain - in BMW he was 0.5 slower than Heidfeld and Kubica and in his first outing in Turkey he did terrible job in choosing tyres for the rest of the weekend, which was his task back then.

Some say Vettel did fantastic in Toro Rosso. Yes, he outqualified Bourdais 13-5 in 2008, but Buemi in 2009 repeated it by 7-2 and he was so 'good', that the same team fired him in 2011.

Monaco is the circuit where real talent shines. What Vettel achieved there? Except pole and win in 2011 in ultra dominant car nothing. Destroyed by Webber in 2012 and 2010, killed his tyres in 6 laps in 2009 and then crashed out and achieved 5th in 2008, which maybe looks good on paper, but Sutil in hopeless Force India was running 4th until Raikkonen rear ended his car, which of course benefitted Vettel.

Team him up wih Hulkenberg in Sauber and he won't be so smart anymore to call other drivers idiots or cucumbers. We saw how in a dominant machinery put in midfield he hit Senna and then DRS board in Abu Dhabi and how he turned into apex thinking no one is there in Brazil, taking out 2 cars out of the race, strangely not receiving penalty. Now imagine him driving in midfield with midfield car, it would be carnage out there.

Colliding with Karthikeyan in Malaysia, crying when he couldn't overtake in China, getting penalty for not slowing down under yellows in Spain, getting penalty for overtaking Button off track in Germany, crying "do something!" over radio in Hungary, pushing Alonso on grass in Italy and getting penalty again, insulting Narain after Austin - this doesn't sound like championship season, more like complete meltdown of a season, a la Hamilton in 2011, yet it indeed was Vettel's 3rd title crusade.

I hope Vettel has balls to test himself in other environment and I say it will be a true shock for him, his fans and all experts trying to make him god of F1.


Finished your anti Vettel rant?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:26 pm 
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edited:

NVM, I don't feel like debating this anymore

Not surprised by Armchair Experts 2 cents though. He's among the top 4-5 Vettel bashers on this forum


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:49 pm 
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MikeV1987 wrote:
Not surprised by Armchair Experts 2 cents though.

2 whole cents? C'mon, you're being flattering. That's a lot of money for such 'opinions' when can't even recycle them!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Good old Armchair Numpty, the fact that his bitter rants can be so funny to read at times is probably the only reason the mods haven't given him a holiday yet, but I hope you've enjoyed the last 3 years....
I have :D

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:48 pm 
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joshb wrote:
Good old Armchair Numpty, the fact that his bitter rants can be so funny to read at times is probably the only reason the mods haven't given him a holiday yet, but I hope you've enjoyed the last 3 years....
I have :D

:nod: :nod: :nod: and may he enjoy next year too....


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:11 pm 
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Imo Vettel is about level with Hamilton, car neutral; that is really good, better than the rest.
But imo both are slightly below Alonso. Fernando's performances since 2008 have been exceptional in non-top-rate cars. He does not have off-days (or several as Vettel did early in 2012, or Hamilton in 2011). Imo Alonso can do more with his car than any of his rivals.
The Ferrari improved enormously from early season, but to be just a tenth ot two off at top level means the difference between those drivers with faster cars: Hamilton's four wins/eight poles, Vettel's five wins/seven poles versus Alonso's three wins/two poles.

To me the Hamilton/McLaren was the fastest package. With more luck it should have won the most.

By my calcs Lewis was 0.2 faster than Vettel on season average, single-lap, pre-race time speed. Their race-time averages worked out equal, but only 0.1 faster than Alonso's! In pre-race times my stats show that Alonso was 0.6 slower than Hamilton, 0.4 slower than Vettel (talking packages, not drivers).

To return to the OP: Vettel fought this way back in many races and showed how competitive he is. Hamilton we know is a great racer. I would rate them equal.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:26 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
Imo Vettel is about level with Hamilton, car neutral; that is really good, better than the rest.
But imo both are slightly below Alonso. Fernando's performances since 2008 have been exceptional in non-top-rate cars. He does not have off-days (or several as Vettel did early in 2012, or Hamilton in 2011). Imo Alonso can do more with his car than any of his rivals.
The Ferrari improved enormously from early season, but to be just a tenth ot two off at top level means the difference between those drivers with faster cars: Hamilton's four wins/eight poles, Vettel's five wins/seven poles versus Alonso's three wins/two poles.

To me the Hamilton/McLaren was the fastest package. With more luck it should have won the most.

By my calcs Lewis was 0.2 faster than Vettel on season average, single-lap, pre-race time speed. Their race-time averages worked out equal, but only 0.1 faster than Alonso's! In pre-race times my stats show that Alonso was 0.6 slower than Hamilton, 0.4 slower than Vettel (talking packages, not drivers).

To return to the OP: Vettel fought this way back in many races and showed how competitive he is. Hamilton we know is a great racer. I would rate them equal.

Good post but i take issue with Alonso not having off days, was not Massa not quicker than Alonso in 3 out of the last 5 races for instance?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:14 pm 
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To the original post, I say one might also ask the same question of the other drivers on the grid - just how good are Kimi, Alonso and Hamilton? F1 is one sport where it's very difficult to judge drivers' "raw pace" relative to others because so much depends on the car - not just the outright pace of the car, but also if the design and tyres suits a particular pilot's driving style.

What I can say about Vettel is that he's clearly committed to the cause - as Ashley pointed out, having no manager and limited commercial agreements suggests that. A lot of people he has worked with say that he's very intelligent, and some of his radio transmissions and interviews do point to the "excess mental capacity" which has been attributed to him. He also is a team player as is evident from his assistance to Webber in Hungary 2010, his staying up all night with his team when they took one of the curfew exemptions last season (was it in Hungary 2011?). These qualities, combined with the fact that he's undoubtedly quick and very likeable suggest that he's a good leader who can motivate a team to work for him. Much of these qualities can be attributed to the other drivers too in varying degrees.

Where I do think Vettel can still improve is his patience when having to overtake. His brush against Senna in Abu Dhabi was a bit rash, and he should have given Button back his second place in Germany and had another shot at him later on (I will not blame him for the Senna clash in Brazil as he was unsighted by di Resta, though one could argue that a more experienced driver may have allowed for the possibility of a third car in the fight for the corner). However, he has demonstrated after Belgium 2010 that he's very good at wheel-to-wheel racing - whether he's overtaking or being overtaken - and he is likely to improve as he gains experience.

Overall though, I think he's a driver with few weaknesses and those are likely to be corrected by experience. At the moment though, I feel Fernie and Kimi are the more complete drivers, but given Seb is 6 years younger I won't be surprised if he exceeds them in time.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:37 pm 
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zoomsthru wrote:
I say one might also ask the same question of the other drivers on the grid - just how good are Kimi, Alonso and Hamilton?

Good question. Each one of those drivers have strengths and weaknesses.

Alonso is probably the most organised of the lot. He can adapt his style to any car and certainly get the best out of it but under pressure he can be slightly below par, although he does not show it.

Hamilton can be very fast and brilliant when the conditions suit him but end up with mediocre results if things do not go his way. Unlike Alonso IMO Hamilton is not very adaptable.

Vettel is organised like Alonso and gets the best out the car that he is driving. He has a tendency to 'play safe' when ahead and does not take chances unless he has to. But good under pressure.

Raikkonen is the most off-beat of the lot. Shatteringly fast when he has the car to do it under him to the point of car-breaking. But quickly demoralised if the car is not up to his expectations.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:14 pm 
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zoomsthru wrote:
To the original post, I say one might also ask the same question of the other drivers on the grid - just how good are Kimi, Alonso and Hamilton? F1 is one sport where it's very difficult to judge drivers' "raw pace" relative to others because so much depends on the car - not just the outright pace of the car, but also if the design and tyres suits a particular pilot's driving style.

What I can say about Vettel is that he's clearly committed to the cause - as Ashley pointed out, having no manager and limited commercial agreements suggests that. A lot of people he has worked with say that he's very intelligent, and some of his radio transmissions and interviews do point to the "excess mental capacity" which has been attributed to him. He also is a team player as is evident from his assistance to Webber in Hungary 2010, his staying up all night with his team when they took one of the curfew exemptions last season (was it in Hungary 2011?). These qualities, combined with the fact that he's undoubtedly quick and very likeable suggest that he's a good leader who can motivate a team to work for him. Much of these qualities can be attributed to the other drivers too in varying degrees.

Where I do think Vettel can still improve is his patience when having to overtake. His brush against Senna in Abu Dhabi was a bit rash, and he should have given Button back his second place in Germany and had another shot at him later on (I will not blame him for the Senna clash in Brazil as he was unsighted by di Resta, though one could argue that a more experienced driver may have allowed for the possibility of a third car in the fight for the corner). However, he has demonstrated after Belgium 2010 that he's very good at wheel-to-wheel racing - whether he's overtaking or being overtaken - and he is likely to improve as he gains experience.

Overall though, I think he's a driver with few weaknesses and those are likely to be corrected by experience. At the moment though, I feel Fernie and Kimi are the more complete drivers, but given Seb is 6 years younger I won't be surprised if he exceeds them in time.

There's no doubt that Vettel is absolutely top drawer but when you question just how good are the likes of Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi all i can answer is that by having far more viable teammates there's less to question than Vettel who has really had only one teammate in F1 and that is Webber, Webber himself is of course a very good driver but it does make it harder to evaluate Vettel in comparison to other drivers.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
There's no doubt that Vettel is absolutely top drawer but when you question just how good are the likes of Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi all i can answer is that by having far more viable teammates there's less to question than Vettel who has really had only one teammate in F1 and that is Webber, Webber himself is of course a very good driver but it does make it harder to evaluate Vettel in comparison to other drivers.


I can't agree with that. Alonso has mostly been building the status he enjoys now as outspoken #1 driver next to Massa. Of the team mates he had, only one was better than Webber. That was Hamilton and we can draw few conclusions out of their year at Mclaren.

On top of that, people want Vettel to prove himself next to Alonso or Hamilton but Ferrari/Alonso don't want this and it remains to be seen if Hamilton would want it. How can Vettel win this?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:40 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There's no doubt that Vettel is absolutely top drawer but when you question just how good are the likes of Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi all i can answer is that by having far more viable teammates there's less to question than Vettel who has really had only one teammate in F1 and that is Webber, Webber himself is of course a very good driver but it does make it harder to evaluate Vettel in comparison to other drivers.


I can't agree with that. Alonso has mostly been building the status he enjoys now as outspoken #1 driver next to Massa. Of the team mates he had, only one was better than Webber. That was Hamilton and we can draw few conclusions out of their year at Mclaren.

On top of that, people want Vettel to prove himself next to Alonso or Hamilton but Ferrari/Alonso don't want this and it remains to be seen if Hamilton would want it. How can Vettel win this?

You can't as if he stays or goes he will always be the No1 driver. I can't see any the top 3 ever being in a team together. He is in my list of top 3 so that makes him very good !


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:26 pm 
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Quote:
"mds"I can't agree with that. Alonso has mostly been building the status he enjoys now as outspoken #1 driver next to Massa. Of the team mates he had, only one was better than Webber. That was Hamilton and we can draw few conclusions out of their year at Mclaren.


I would query that only Hamilton was better than Webber among Alonso's teammates. IMO, Massa and Webber are at least comparable and as teammates themselves without team orders, I would fancy Massa to beat Webber. The trouble is, at Ferrari Massa has been relegated to a very firm #2 whereas at Red Bull, Webber gets to race Vettel on equal terms up until one of them is the only WDC conternder for the team.

In 2008, Massa outperformed Raikkonen in a similar car, had 6 wins to Hamilton's 5 and 2 DNFs to Hamilton's 1 and lost the WDC by one point thanks to Timo Glock allowing Hamilton past in the last 2 turns of the last lap.

In 2010 Webber was neck & neck with Vettel going into Abu Dhabi and it was the Aussie's poor qualification and self-requested early pit-stop that ruined his chances but he finished third behind Vettel and Alonso.

Therefore, as I said, they are at least comparable.

Quote:
On top of that, people want Vettel to prove himself next to Alonso or Hamilton but Ferrari/Alonso don't want this and it remains to be seen if Hamilton would want it. How can Vettel win this?

IMO, he will win next to either of them and has never shied away from the challenge. It is not Vettel's fault that the shenanigans involving drivers' moves have not paired him up so far with either Alonso or Hamilton. But IMO the former will happen at Ferrari in 2015 & 2016 and I believe Vettel will win those encounters. Both Vettel and Hamilton are young enough for them to become teammates later still.

A strange part of Vettel's driving personality is that he is a very 'as much as necessary' type driver. He only pushes his car as much as he has to - as we often seen him eke out a 4 or 5 second lead from pole and hold station. But as he showed at Spa, Abu Dhabi and Brazil, he is more than capable of pushing the boundaries when chips are down.

IMO, he consciously or subconsciously uses the same trait with his teammates. Should Alonso or Hamilton become his teammate, Vettel will push harder right from the start knowing that the challenge is likely to be stronger than it has been with Webber.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:03 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There's no doubt that Vettel is absolutely top drawer but when you question just how good are the likes of Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi all i can answer is that by having far more viable teammates there's less to question than Vettel who has really had only one teammate in F1 and that is Webber, Webber himself is of course a very good driver but it does make it harder to evaluate Vettel in comparison to other drivers.


I can't agree with that. Alonso has mostly been building the status he enjoys now as outspoken #1 driver next to Massa. Of the team mates he had, only one was better than Webber. That was Hamilton and we can draw few conclusions out of their year at Mclaren.

On top of that, people want Vettel to prove himself next to Alonso or Hamilton but Ferrari/Alonso don't want this and it remains to be seen if Hamilton would want it. How can Vettel win this?

Apart from Rosberg when he was a rookie none of either Webber's or Vettel's former teammates are in F1 anymore, whereas Alonso, who you mention, has more teammates still in F1, Hamilton, Grosjean, also with Massa you have have the fact he was teammates with Kimi as a further guide as to his status in F1.

I don't understand what you mean by Alonso is building his status next to Massa, Alonso was considered by many as the best driver in F1 for a long time now and thats one of the reasons why he was signed by Ferrari.

I guess you must have been sleeping when Hamilton arranged a meeting with Horner during the 2011 Canadian GP asking for a drive with Red Bull

At the end of the day results will show Vettel as one of the all time best drivers but not necessarily the best driver of his generation

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:28 pm 
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mds wrote:
On top of that, people want Vettel to prove himself next to Alonso or Hamilton but Ferrari/Alonso don't want this and it remains to be seen if Hamilton would want it. How can Vettel win this?


If you think about it, there is no logic in those people's claim. Why should Vettel have to prove himself against Alonso or Hamilton and not the other way around?

Since all this arguement is about Vettel and how good he is, the fact that Alonso and Hamilton as teammates scored the same number of wins and points is completely immaterial. OK, that proves that Alonso and Hamilton are more or less as good as each other but it does not prove how good either of them can be with Vettel as a teammate.

Therefore, us Vettel supporters can say "Until Alonso or Hamilton can prove themselves that they can beat Vettel on equal terms as a teammate, neither can claim to be a better driver than the German. And until they do that, they have to accept the fact that Vettel is a triple champion whereas Alonso has two and Hamilton just one."

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:45 pm 
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zoomsthru wrote:
To the original post, I say one might also ask the same question of the other drivers on the grid - just how good are Kimi, Alonso and Hamilton? F1 is one sport where it's very difficult to judge drivers' "raw pace" relative to others because so much depends on the car - not just the outright pace of the car, but also if the design and tyres suits a particular pilot's driving style.

What I can say about Vettel is that he's clearly committed to the cause - as Ashley pointed out, having no manager and limited commercial agreements suggests that. A lot of people he has worked with say that he's very intelligent, and some of his radio transmissions and interviews do point to the "excess mental capacity" which has been attributed to him. He also is a team player as is evident from his assistance to Webber in Hungary 2010, his staying up all night with his team when they took one of the curfew exemptions last season (was it in Hungary 2011?). These qualities, combined with the fact that he's undoubtedly quick and very likeable suggest that he's a good leader who can motivate a team to work for him. Much of these qualities can be attributed to the other drivers too in varying degrees.

Where I do think Vettel can still improve is his patience when having to overtake. His brush against Senna in Abu Dhabi was a bit rash, and he should have given Button back his second place in Germany and had another shot at him later on (I will not blame him for the Senna clash in Brazil as he was unsighted by di Resta, though one could argue that a more experienced driver may have allowed for the possibility of a third car in the fight for the corner). However, he has demonstrated after Belgium 2010 that he's very good at wheel-to-wheel racing - whether he's overtaking or being overtaken - and he is likely to improve as he gains experience.

Overall though, I think he's a driver with few weaknesses and those are likely to be corrected by experience. At the moment though, I feel Fernie and Kimi are the more complete drivers, but given Seb is 6 years younger I won't be surprised if he exceeds them in time.

The fact is that call for this question implicate in effect evaluate all the top drivers bunch.
All we know that "how good" is relative to skill of the rest. I must to concede that didn't mind in political thinking, leadership or mediatic speaker like valuable items of a driver's skill package, but thinking twice it are. With this point of view compares is harder because the relative value of that factors is unclear. I would take it with reserves.
I don't care here for the age factor. The question is limited to the present level, the diverse circunstances between past times of various drivers made very hard to reach valid conclusions, and future is futurable

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:25 am 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
Until he is sitting in rockesthip of a car alongside journeyman teammate with tons of reliability problems (gearboxes, DRS, KERS, differential - you name it), while his team gets away with spending the most money in F1 and breaking rules, we won't know. One thing is certain - in BMW he was 0.5 slower than Heidfeld and Kubica and in his first outing in Turkey he did terrible job in choosing tyres for the rest of the weekend, which was his task back then.

Some say Vettel did fantastic in Toro Rosso. Yes, he outqualified Bourdais 13-5 in 2008, but Buemi in 2009 repeated it by 7-2 and he was so 'good', that the same team fired him in 2011.

Monaco is the circuit where real talent shines. What Vettel achieved there? Except pole and win in 2011 in ultra dominant car nothing. Destroyed by Webber in 2012 and 2010, killed his tyres in 6 laps in 2009 and then crashed out and achieved 5th in 2008, which maybe looks good on paper, but Sutil in hopeless Force India was running 4th until Raikkonen rear ended his car, which of course benefitted Vettel.

Team him up wih Hulkenberg in Sauber and he won't be so smart anymore to call other drivers idiots or cucumbers. We saw how in a dominant machinery put in midfield he hit Senna and then DRS board in Abu Dhabi and how he turned into apex thinking no one is there in Brazil, taking out 2 cars out of the race, strangely not receiving penalty. Now imagine him driving in midfield with midfield car, it would be carnage out there.

Colliding with Karthikeyan in Malaysia, crying when he couldn't overtake in China, getting penalty for not slowing down under yellows in Spain, getting penalty for overtaking Button off track in Germany, crying "do something!" over radio in Hungary, pushing Alonso on grass in Italy and getting penalty again, insulting Narain after Austin - this doesn't sound like championship season, more like complete meltdown of a season, a la Hamilton in 2011, yet it indeed was Vettel's 3rd title crusade.

I hope Vettel has balls to test himself in other environment and I say it will be a true shock for him, his fans and all experts trying to make him god of F1.



this post is oozing with bitterness


Just, er, FYI (from the Vettel/Hamilton/Dominicali thread):

Vettelmessi wrote:
2007-probably the biggest ever choke in any season
2008-Won the title with equal best car and massively favoured by his team Nothing more needs to be said.
2009-showed he is noything without a decent car
2010-fast car failed again
2011-worst season by any top driver in history
2012-Should have won the title but didn't again.

facts:
1 title in 6 years of driving for a top team
only beaten 1 teammate on points ( equal with alonso, lost to button)

peace


Aaaaaanyway... How good is Vettel? In the Red Bull in '10, '11 and '12 he is better than everyone else over the amount of races in an F1 season. In a different car, with a tweaked rule book, who knows?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:31 am 
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In my opinion he is not better than Hamilton or Alonso but he's won three WDCs so he's good enough what more can we ask really give him the right tools and backing and he'll get the job done .

Why the need to see him driving a lesser car than RB we've seen when the RB isn't up to scratch with downforce he struggles that's his weak point and they all have one .


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Apart from Rosberg when he was a rookie none of either Webber's or Vettel's former teammates are in F1 anymore, whereas Alonso, who you mention, has more teammates still in F1, Hamilton, Grosjean, also with Massa you have have the fact he was teammates with Kimi as a further guide as to his status in F1.


I don't think Massa's relative performance to Raikkonen in 2008 means all that much. It's pretty much a given that Ferrari didn't want Raikkonen anymore, they wanted to reel in Alonso. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but the understanding between Raikkonen and Ferrari went sour in 2008 and a lot can be read here: http://f1bias.com/2012/04/05/truth-abou ... nder-2008/

Quote:
I don't understand what you mean by Alonso is building his status next to Massa, Alonso was considered by many as the best driver in F1 for a long time now


Before he went to Ferrari his status wasn't even in the same ballpark as it is now. Back then lots of people attributed his titles at Renault mostly to the failures of others. Whether that is correct or not is not the issue - point is that he is now regarded as the best or one of the best, while back then there were far more doubters.
Personally, for me too it's his performances at Ferrari that have really made him a standout driver.

Quote:
I guess you must have been sleeping when Hamilton arranged a meeting with Horner during the 2011 Canadian GP asking for a drive with Red Bull


If you guess I must have been sleeping back then, I guess you were present in that particular meeting? What do you know more than I do? What was said there? Who asked for the meeting? Which arrangements were made? Do enlighten me.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:02 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
Until he is sitting in rockesthip of a car alongside journeyman teammate with tons of reliability problems (gearboxes, DRS, KERS, differential - you name it), while his team gets away with spending the most money in F1 and breaking rules, we won't know. One thing is certain - in BMW he was 0.5 slower than Heidfeld and Kubica and in his first outing in Turkey he did terrible job in choosing tyres for the rest of the weekend, which was his task back then.

Some say Vettel did fantastic in Toro Rosso. Yes, he outqualified Bourdais 13-5 in 2008, but Buemi in 2009 repeated it by 7-2 and he was so 'good', that the same team fired him in 2011.

Monaco is the circuit where real talent shines. What Vettel achieved there? Except pole and win in 2011 in ultra dominant car nothing. Destroyed by Webber in 2012 and 2010, killed his tyres in 6 laps in 2009 and then crashed out and achieved 5th in 2008, which maybe looks good on paper, but Sutil in hopeless Force India was running 4th until Raikkonen rear ended his car, which of course benefitted Vettel.

Team him up wih Hulkenberg in Sauber and he won't be so smart anymore to call other drivers idiots or cucumbers. We saw how in a dominant machinery put in midfield he hit Senna and then DRS board in Abu Dhabi and how he turned into apex thinking no one is there in Brazil, taking out 2 cars out of the race, strangely not receiving penalty. Now imagine him driving in midfield with midfield car, it would be carnage out there.
Colliding with Karthikeyan in Malaysia, crying when he couldn't overtake in China, getting penalty for not slowing down under yellows in Spain, getting penalty for overtaking Button off track in Germany, crying "do something!" over radio in Hungary, pushing Alonso on grass in Italy and getting penalty again, insulting Narain after Austin - this doesn't sound like championship season, more like complete meltdown of a season, a la Hamilton in 2011, yet it indeed was Vettel's 3rd title crusade.

I hope Vettel has balls to test himself in other environment and I say it will be a true shock for him, his fans and all experts trying to make him god of F1.


The bold part of your post is very interesting and I think the "Hulk" could be a diamond in the rough.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:27 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
mds wrote:
On top of that, people want Vettel to prove himself next to Alonso or Hamilton but Ferrari/Alonso don't want this and it remains to be seen if Hamilton would want it. How can Vettel win this?


If you think about it, there is no logic in those people's claim. Why should Vettel have to prove himself against Alonso or Hamilton and not the other way around?

Since all this arguement is about Vettel and how good he is, the fact that Alonso and Hamilton as teammates scored the same number of wins and points is completely immaterial. OK, that proves that Alonso and Hamilton are more or less as good as each other but it does not prove how good either of them can be with Vettel as a teammate.

Therefore, us Vettel supporters can say "Until Alonso or Hamilton can prove themselves that they can beat Vettel on equal terms as a teammate, neither can claim to be a better driver than the German. And until they do that, they have to accept the fact that Vettel is a triple champion whereas Alonso has two and Hamilton just one."

Is this using titles to decide who is the better driver?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:43 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Apart from Rosberg when he was a rookie none of either Webber's or Vettel's former teammates are in F1 anymore, whereas Alonso, who you mention, has more teammates still in F1, Hamilton, Grosjean, also with Massa you have have the fact he was teammates with Kimi as a further guide as to his status in F1.


I don't think Massa's relative performance to Raikkonen in 2008 means all that much. It's pretty much a given that Ferrari didn't want Raikkonen anymore, they wanted to reel in Alonso. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but the understanding between Raikkonen and Ferrari went sour in 2008 and a lot can be read here: http://f1bias.com/2012/04/05/truth-abou ... nder-2008/

Quote:
I don't understand what you mean by Alonso is building his status next to Massa, Alonso was considered by many as the best driver in F1 for a long time now


Before he went to Ferrari his status wasn't even in the same ballpark as it is now. Back then lots of people attributed his titles at Renault mostly to the failures of others. Whether that is correct or not is not the issue - point is that he is now regarded as the best or one of the best, while back then there were far more doubters.
Personally, for me too it's his performances at Ferrari that have really made him a standout driver.

Quote:
I guess you must have been sleeping when Hamilton arranged a meeting with Horner during the 2011 Canadian GP asking for a drive with Red Bull


If you guess I must have been sleeping back then, I guess you were present in that particular meeting? What do you know more than I do? What was said there? Who asked for the meeting? Which arrangements were made? Do enlighten me.

It would be easy to turn this all around and say that Vettel's advantage over Webber is just down to favouritism, the car simply suits Vettel more than Webber, afterall Vettel is the prodigal son.

Since 2006 Alonso has by and large been considered the best driver in F1 even when he was driving the crappy Renault, what he's managed to do at Ferrari relative to Massa i would say is no surprise.

Hamilton asked a woman who he knew and worked in the Red Bull canteen if she could set up a meeting for him with Horner, i guess it was just for tea and biscuits although F1 journalists say otherwise

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Hamilton asked a woman who he knew and worked in the Red Bull canteen if she could set up a meeting for him with Horner


Is that a joke? I would imagine, although obviously I have no clue, that an F1 driver might be more capable of setting up a meeting with a team boss than someone that works in the canteen.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:

Since 2006 Alonso has by and large been considered the best driver in F1 even when he was driving the crappy Renault, what he's managed to do at Ferrari relative to Massa i would say is no surprise.


You're just regurgitating what you said before. Should I then just repeat what I said?

Alonso's status back then was nowhere what it is now. If you believe otherwise, feel free, but I believe that's nonsense. But if you believe it to be true, you're actually rubbishing the calls of those that say Vettel should prove himself in other teams and next to top drivers.

Quote:
Hamilton asked a woman who he knew and worked in the Red Bull canteen if she could set up a meeting for him with Horner, i guess it was just for tea and biscuits although F1 journalists say otherwise


You didn't answer half of my questions and you're proving nothing here. Which F1 journalists said what and what are they backing that up with?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:35 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton asked a woman who he knew and worked in the Red Bull canteen if she could set up a meeting for him with Horner


Is that a joke? I would imagine, although obviously I have no clue, that an F1 driver might be more capable of setting up a meeting with a team boss than someone that works in the canteen.

Unfortunately its not a joke and it didn't really do Hamilton's credibility much good, and you might say it lay the grounds for the split between Hamilton and McLaren

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