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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:56 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Chasing set up? If you actually remember he got no Friday practice due to a gearbox fault. So there is two sessions he couldn't chase set up.

It went into Saturday with Lewis' set up which included a special Montreal spec wishbone layout that he wasn't originally supposed to use.

Which brings me back to . If you don't get the car dialled in to the tyres and to suit the driver then no matter how quick the core car is you won't have the pace.

Canada is the perfect example as the cars were virtually identical however the difference in style meant one car wasn't able to get the most out of it. Which as for Button brings me back to Hembreys comments.

No matter how quick the caris unless it can use the tyres effectively the pace won't be there. In Canada one car did and one car didn't. that resulted in them living in different ends of the results.


Excuses. He drove 12 laps in FP1, 14 laps in FP2 and 22 laps in FP3. That's enough to learn about conditions and adapt to the set-up which was he had to use.

Hamilton drove 2 races with damaged suspension, which resulted in increased tyre wear - in Japan he finished 5th and in Korea 10th. Meanwhile Button with perfectly working car and whole FP session to adapt, was racing Caterhams and finished 16th in Canada. As I said, excuses.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:58 pm 
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ManojHS wrote:


So according to the same logic, Badoer was not incapable in Spa 2009, his driving style was just not in line with the race winning car?

This myth of Jenson coming good only with a car perfectly suited to his driving is something he created to mask his mediocrity which seems to sell well among his fans in denial.


Well he was fast enough for Ferrari to test the car.

But then Badoer hadn't raced in what 10 years or something? would anyone expect someone who hadn't raced in 10 years to match a WDC?


Even fisi who was second in Spa to Kimi in the FI couldn't get the car on the pace. Which kinda goes with my POV. Or else how do you explain Fisi having the pace in one race but to suddenly lose it?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:05 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:

Excuses. He drove 12 laps in FP1, 14 laps in FP2 and 22 laps in FP3. That's enough to learn about conditions and adapt to the set-up which was he had to use.

Hamilton drove 2 races with damaged suspension, which resulted in increased tyre wear - in Japan he finished 5th and in Korea 10th. Meanwhile Button with perfectly working car and whole FP session to adapt, was racing Caterhams and finished 16th in Canada. As I said, excuses.


In FP1 and FP2 he had a gearbox issue. IIRC it was putting oil onto the clutch.

Between FP2 and FP3 they bolted on a completely different set up.

So you are saying 22 laps is enough time to get a set up on a completely new suspension from scratch?

Why do they have 3 sessions if 22 laps is enough. In this time of resource restrictions and cost savings surly if 322 laps is enough they would just bin Fridays.

And it all depends on how extreme the tyre wear is because of the set up or fault. Some things cause more tyre wear than others. Even McLaren classed Canada in the Extreme side.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:22 pm 
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Martin Whitmarsh, about the reasons McLaren & Hamilton were not in the WDC fight at the last GP:
"
Quote:
We have underperformed. We haven't done a good enough job in a number of different ways but we've had a quick car and that is an achievement.
"We have done some good things but we haven't nailed it in the way I would have liked.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Oh good, just what we need another bash thread

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:26 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
In FP1 and FP2 he had a gearbox issue. IIRC it was putting oil onto the clutch.

Between FP2 and FP3 they bolted on a completely different set up.

So you are saying 22 laps is enough time to get a set up on a completely new suspension from scratch?

Why do they have 3 sessions if 22 laps is enough. In this time of resource restrictions and cost savings surly if 322 laps is enough they would just bin Fridays.

And it all depends on how extreme the tyre wear is because of the set up or fault. Some things cause more tyre wear than others. Even McLaren classed Canada in the Extreme side.


Yes, 22 laps is enough to adapt your driving style in order to look competent against world class teammate, who hadn't had the same problems, but is using the same set-up. Button failed spectacularly, because he couldn't do it. It was the same problem as in Korea '10 or Malaysia this year, when Hamilton was in podium positions, while Button was deep in a midfield not knowing what to do with his driving.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:

Yes, 22 laps is enough to adapt your driving style in order to look competent against world class teammate, who hadn't had the same problems, but is using the same set-up. Button failed spectacularly, because he couldn't do it. It was the same problem as in Korea '10 or Malaysia this year, when Hamilton was in podium positions, while Button was deep in a midfield not knowing what to do with his driving.



22 Laps to totally re-invent your driving style?

22laps to get it ready for low fuel and full fuel.

22 laps to laps to asses tyre wear as fuel drops.

If you think any two drivers can just automatically swap set ups and get the same times and effects then your name is well chosen. You can put a driver in the car and he will complain of oversteer. Swap the seats put someone else with a different style and they will complain of oversteer. It's not as easy as one set up fits all. Otherwise each team would run both cars with identical set ups.

Take a look at Ferrari. Some of the upgrades one didn't like the other did.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Once again, a topic has switched to a Jenson bashing.

Let me just pose some questions to those saying he is a mediocre driver and racing Caterhams is his true quality.

how often has he battled with the Caterhams for this to be his true level?

Over three years in Mclaren with what most bashers would label to be the best driver of the current generation, was he often more than a second slower and lapped by Lewis? they have been together for around 27-28 races i would say for that to be the case he had to have been lapped by Lewis around 10 or 15 races since this is his "true level", and out qualified by around a second each GP. he would have fared even worse than Petrov against Kubica.

Well another thing, he has had 8 wins, so if he is a mediocre driver and Lewis is an excellent one then Lewis should have had 3 WDCs now.


since the only time he raced a Caterham was in Canada, and he was only lapped in Lewis in that only race, he has a WDC, scored more points than Lewis in 3 years time i feel drawn to the conclusion that his problems were car/team bound and not driver bound. Just my opinions and if anyone wants to correct me please answer the questions i have asked and tell me your conclusions from them.



P.S i am not dragging Lewis' quality into this, in fact i am making my conclusion based on that i rate Lewis as one of the best of the field.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:59 pm 
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Lack of pace cost us the title....is such a nonsensical excuse...it begs what planet Button and his fans are on...THATS the reason why all the other teams didnt win

hey any reason to make Button relavant.....Im really looking foward to the Epic fail by Mclaren next....and off course the old boyz network will find some excuse why he failure is a win again.next year......wait for it...wait for it...wait for it.......Button excuse next year will be that car was already designed around Lewis thats why he only won one race and that he is actually looking forward to 2014 when he can make areal difference


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Samaritan wrote:
Lack of pace cost us the title....is such a nonsensical excuse...it begs what planet Button and his fans are on...THATS the reason why all the other teams didnt win

hey any reason to make Button relavant.....Im really looking foward to the Epic fail by Mclaren next....and off course the old boyz network will find some excuse why he failure is a win again.next year......wait for it...wait for it...wait for it.......Button excuse next year will be that car was already designed around Lewis thats why he only won one race and that he is actually looking forward to 2014 when he can make areal difference


And there you are again. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:11 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
22 Laps to totally re-invent your driving style?

22laps to get it ready for low fuel and full fuel.

22 laps to laps to asses tyre wear as fuel drops.

If you think any two drivers can just automatically swap set ups and get the same times and effects then your name is well chosen. You can put a driver in the car and he will complain of oversteer. Swap the seats put someone else with a different style and they will complain of oversteer. It's not as easy as one set up fits all. Otherwise each team would run both cars with identical set ups.

Take a look at Ferrari. Some of the upgrades one didn't like the other did.


Yes, it's enough for a world champion, who is classified as a top driver and who has experience of hundreds of kilometres in this particular car.

Mark Hughes (or Gary Anderson?) said Fernando Alonso is changing his driving style on every lap in order to maximise everything from his car. Sergio Perez said he doesn't have set-in-stone driving style and it is relatively easy for him to figure out tyre usage in races. Meanwhile Button can't adapt and he confirmed it himself during weekends such as Korea '10 or Malaysia, Canada this year, when he has no clue what to do.

Quote:
He can adapt to rear instability on corner entry better than I can. When he has that, he just throws on a lot of steering lock very suddenly, making the car understeer, and balancing it just right so that, by the time the understeer's reducing, you're into the corner and the transient instability is gone, or has been sort of damped out. I've seen it time and time again on the telemetry. When I try to do that, I just lose all feeling for the car; I cannot judge how much to do it by, it just feels so alien.


Who said that? Yep, Jenson Button in 2009.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:19 pm 
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Mr-E wrote:
Samaritan wrote:
Lack of pace cost us the title....is such a nonsensical excuse...it begs what planet Button and his fans are on...THATS the reason why all the other teams didnt win

hey any reason to make Button relavant.....Im really looking foward to the Epic fail by Mclaren next....and off course the old boyz network will find some excuse why he failure is a win again.next year......wait for it...wait for it...wait for it.......Button excuse next year will be that car was already designed around Lewis thats why he only won one race and that he is actually looking forward to 2014 when he can make areal difference


And there you are again. :lol:


I'd just ignore him, he might actually go away if nobody bites.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:22 pm 
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Samaritan wrote:
the point is Button is a mediocre driver who was up against a once in generation driver in Lewis,who brought a much needed breath of fresh air and genx to f1.


Such a shame that Lewis's generation only lasted from 2007 until 2008 because since then he's not won a title and Vettel has taken three.. So the driver of this generation 2007 onwards is Vettel!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
Johnston wrote:
22 Laps to totally re-invent your driving style?

22laps to get it ready for low fuel and full fuel.

22 laps to laps to asses tyre wear as fuel drops.

If you think any two drivers can just automatically swap set ups and get the same times and effects then your name is well chosen. You can put a driver in the car and he will complain of oversteer. Swap the seats put someone else with a different style and they will complain of oversteer. It's not as easy as one set up fits all. Otherwise each team would run both cars with identical set ups.

Take a look at Ferrari. Some of the upgrades one didn't like the other did.


Yes, it's enough for a world champion, who is classified as a top driver and who has experience of hundreds of kilometres in this particular car.

Mark Hughes (or Gary Anderson?) said Fernando Alonso is changing his driving style on every lap in order to maximise everything from his car. Sergio Perez said he doesn't have set-in-stone driving style and it is relatively easy for him to figure out tyre usage in races. Meanwhile Button can't adapt and he confirmed it himself during weekends such as Korea '10 or Malaysia, Canada this year, when he has no clue what to do.

Quote:
He can adapt to rear instability on corner entry better than I can. When he has that, he just throws on a lot of steering lock very suddenly, making the car understeer, and balancing it just right so that, by the time the understeer's reducing, you're into the corner and the transient instability is gone, or has been sort of damped out. I've seen it time and time again on the telemetry. When I try to do that, I just lose all feeling for the car; I cannot judge how much to do it by, it just feels so alien.


Who said that? Yep, Jenson Button in 2009.


You do realise something as simple as braking which is instinctive has an affect on set up which in turn has an affect on things like tyres don't you?

It's not as simple for any driver to switch to an alien style of driving. Certainly not in 22 laps.

Changing it from lap to lap as they Said Alonso does is a completely different thing. It is minute changes in comparison , anyway all drivers do that. They have to as the fuel load goes up and the grip changes through the track evolving or the tyre degrading. To go from Buttons style to Lewis' would effectively require a system re-boot.

and if a driver doesn't have a driving style, I bet that gives his engineers a head ache ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:47 pm 
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Moore wrote:
Mr-E wrote:
Samaritan wrote:
Lack of pace cost us the title....is such a nonsensical excuse...it begs what planet Button and his fans are on...THATS the reason why all the other teams didnt win

hey any reason to make Button relavant.....Im really looking foward to the Epic fail by Mclaren next....and off course the old boyz network will find some excuse why he failure is a win again.next year......wait for it...wait for it...wait for it.......Button excuse next year will be that car was already designed around Lewis thats why he only won one race and that he is actually looking forward to 2014 when he can make areal difference


And there you are again. :lol:


I'd just ignore him, he might actually go away if nobody bites.

Or we can fix the broken record for you.

Incidentally, we have.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:27 am 
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This is silly talk... They were the fastest car on the grid for a good chunk of the year... they simply did not win enough for one reason or another


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:12 am 
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I'm really looking forward to next season, jenson is going to show us all how incredible he really is. I bet perez will never outqualify him or finish in front of JB, mark my words. School is in session.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:12 am 
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Oh yeah,
I propose an amendment in the F1 regs

Any driver should be given a 10 spot grid pen when he badmouths the car he is driving if he failed to beat his teammate
That would sort out half the whining in F1. Of course no way to stop Alonso 's whine coz he is racing Newey :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:15 am 
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F1yer wrote:
Oh yeah,
I propose an amendment in the F1 regs

Any driver should be given a 10 spot grid pen when he badmouths the car he is driving if he failed to beat his teammate
That would sort out half the whining in F1. Of course no way to stop Alonso 's whine coz he is racing Newey :lol:



That could end up very bad for Lewis :P

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:22 am 
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Johnston wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Oh yeah,
I propose an amendment in the F1 regs

Any driver should be given a 10 spot grid pen when he badmouths the car he is driving if he failed to beat his teammate
That would sort out half the whining in F1. Of course no way to stop Alonso 's whine coz he is racing Newey :lol:



That could end up very bad for Lewis :P

Why ?
He hardly ever points to the cars failing on the rare occasion he does get beat by Jense


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:33 am 
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I suppose the hard fact (difficult to prove though) is that if Mclaren had say 5% more 'pace' they would no doubt have won the constructor title.

But, would a Mclaren driver have been drivers champ? hard to say. Not finishing cost them as did poor strategic calls.
Had they not done as they had, who can say if they would still have won or not? I often thought the RBR was only doing what it had to do to win. Had the Mclaren been quicker, it may have just caused them to push a little more, which may have caused failure or still a win.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:51 am 
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F1yer wrote:
Johnston wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Oh yeah,
I propose an amendment in the F1 regs

Any driver should be given a 10 spot grid pen when he badmouths the car he is driving if he failed to beat his teammate
That would sort out half the whining in F1. Of course no way to stop Alonso 's whine coz he is racing Newey :lol:



That could end up very bad for Lewis :P

Why ?
He hardly ever points to the cars failing on the rare occasion he does get beat by Jense

http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/5366870

Quote:
Welcome to my world. We probably should have scrapped this car a long time ago. It is too late now,"


http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews ... 11063.html
Quote:
We are the fastest team on the straights but don’t have enough downforce. But we have to keep working to eliminate those shortcomings.


That was just two I picked off google. So yes he has been known to complain about the car. In the half season he had a bad car he was saying it should have been scrapped. If Merc build another doozy what makes you think he won't do the same?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:26 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Johnston wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Oh yeah,
I propose an amendment in the F1 regs

Any driver should be given a 10 spot grid pen when he badmouths the car he is driving if he failed to beat his teammate
That would sort out half the whining in F1. Of course no way to stop Alonso 's whine coz he is racing Newey :lol:



That could end up very bad for Lewis :P

Why ?
He hardly ever points to the cars failing on the rare occasion he does get beat by Jense

http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/5366870

Quote:
Welcome to my world. We probably should have scrapped this car a long time ago. It is too late now,"


http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews ... 11063.html
Quote:
We are the fastest team on the straights but don’t have enough downforce. But we have to keep working to eliminate those shortcomings.


That was just two I picked off google. So yes he has been known to complain about the car. In the half season he had a bad car he was saying it should have been scrapped. If Merc build another doozy what makes you think he won't do the same?

I think people over react to any type of comment and see everything as bashing, moaning, digging, offensive etc from these drivers, and eachother.

I.E. Driver X says driver Y is better at doing task A than Driver Z. Internet reaction: ZOMG Driver X thinks Driver Z is a noob! Driver X bums driver Y and is playing mindgames!

I love the internet :)

On a sidenote, Samaritan and Armchair Expert are such fun aren't they? I love delusion, it's an amazing part of t'interweb.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:31 pm 
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^^^ :thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:06 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
I think people over react to any type of comment and see everything as bashing, moaning, digging, offensive etc from these drivers, and eachother.

I.E. Driver X says driver Y is better at doing task A than Driver Z. Internet reaction: ZOMG Driver X thinks Driver Z is a noob! Driver X bums driver Y and is playing mindgames!

I love the internet :)

On a sidenote, Samaritan and Armchair Expert are such fun aren't they? I love delusion, it's an amazing part of t'interweb.



Press: Asks Question

Driver: Answers Honestly.

Internet fan of other driver: OMG he be making excuses. He should just retire.

They all bitch and moan


On the other side, we used to have a good laugh at a well known motorsport figure over here. Had a few international championships under his belt. We used to have a competition to see who would guess his excuse he was going to use everytime he had a bad event.

It was usually Driveshaft, Gear box or diff. It's amazing how many faulty Driveshafts the guy would get but took him over a day each time to realise . You'd think after having them so often he would be able to spot the tell tale signs or his mechanics would :lol:

One day he did throw us a curve ball. The prop shaft was affecting the handling :?

F1 are lightweights in this field compared to some. They can't come of with BS because it would gherkin off the team and make them look less attractive to sponsors.

I dare say a lot of drivers even in top team keep their real feelings behind closed doors. Plus the media make more out of some than others.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
I think people over react to any type of comment and see everything as bashing, moaning, digging, offensive etc from these drivers, and eachother.

I.E. Driver X says driver Y is better at doing task A than Driver Z. Internet reaction: ZOMG Driver X thinks Driver Z is a noob! Driver X bums driver Y and is playing mindgames!

I love the internet :)

On a sidenote, Samaritan and Armchair Expert are such fun aren't they? I love delusion, it's an amazing part of t'interweb.



Press: Asks Question

Driver: Answers Honestly.

Internet fan of other driver: OMG he be making excuses. He should just retire.

They all bitch and moan


On the other side, we used to have a good laugh at a well known motorsport figure over here. Had a few international championships under his belt. We used to have a competition to see who would guess his excuse he was going to use everytime he had a bad event.

It was usually Driveshaft, Gear box or diff. It's amazing how many faulty Driveshafts the guy would get but took him over a day each time to realise . You'd think after having them so often he would be able to spot the tell tale signs or his mechanics would :lol:

One day he did throw us a curve ball. The prop shaft was affecting the handling :?

F1 are lightweights in this field compared to some. They can't come of with BS because it would gherkin off the team and make them look less attractive to sponsors.

I dare say a lot of drivers even in top team keep their real feelings behind closed doors. Plus the media make more out of some than others.

Not to excuse some forumers hyperbole, but what button said was factually incorrect.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
I think people over react to any type of comment and see everything as bashing, moaning, digging, offensive etc from these drivers, and eachother.

I.E. Driver X says driver Y is better at doing task A than Driver Z. Internet reaction: ZOMG Driver X thinks Driver Z is a noob! Driver X bums driver Y and is playing mindgames!

I love the internet :)

On a sidenote, Samaritan and Armchair Expert are such fun aren't they? I love delusion, it's an amazing part of t'interweb.



Press: Asks Question

Driver: Answers Honestly.

Internet fan of other driver: OMG he be making excuses. He should just retire.

They all bitch and moan


On the other side, we used to have a good laugh at a well known motorsport figure over here. Had a few international championships under his belt. We used to have a competition to see who would guess his excuse he was going to use everytime he had a bad event.

It was usually Driveshaft, Gear box or diff. It's amazing how many faulty Driveshafts the guy would get but took him over a day each time to realise . You'd think after having them so often he would be able to spot the tell tale signs or his mechanics would :lol:

One day he did throw us a curve ball. The prop shaft was affecting the handling :?

F1 are lightweights in this field compared to some. They can't come of with BS because it would gherkin off the team and make them look less attractive to sponsors.

I dare say a lot of drivers even in top team keep their real feelings behind closed doors. Plus the media make more out of some than others.

:thumbup: Which driver was this then? Or should I have figured it out? He sounds like a noob. ZOMG.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Just 3 tenths off kimi and alonso who had stopped at the same time.Webber if i recall stopped after the safety car came in.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/06/24/2 ... test-laps/
Bahrain hamilton had stopped a couple of laps earlier compared to vettel and rejoined right behind alonso. He was hardly able to show the true pace of the macca.



And is 3 tenths off second place man because of two leaders DNFing and slower because of being harder on tyres having a car that is front line race pace? Remember Kimi was able to pass Lewis and immediately pull a gap. Alonso was also able to pull a gap.

In Bahrain the car was harder on the tyres hurting it's pace. How can you say the car was on the pace of the front runners if it is losing time and having to pit two laps sooner due eating tyres quicker?


This. At several races this year the car had the pace but hurt it's tyres too much. Bahrain was really tough on their car. They also lost opportunities to win in Valencia (Hamilton) and Germany (Button) when looking like they would challenge Alonso.

I know that Button is mainly talking about his own problems there but there were some races where the car didn't have the pace, or was too hard on it's tyres. McLaren also lacked pace at some of the late flyaway races too. Really, a lack of pace wasn't the main thing that cost McLaren the title, but Jenson has a point.

I'm amazed really. Johnston's actually defending Hamilton here and even then you don't get off his back.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:33 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
Johnston wrote:
22 Laps to totally re-invent your driving style?

22laps to get it ready for low fuel and full fuel.

22 laps to laps to asses tyre wear as fuel drops.

If you think any two drivers can just automatically swap set ups and get the same times and effects then your name is well chosen. You can put a driver in the car and he will complain of oversteer. Swap the seats put someone else with a different style and they will complain of oversteer. It's not as easy as one set up fits all. Otherwise each team would run both cars with identical set ups.

Take a look at Ferrari. Some of the upgrades one didn't like the other did.


Yes, it's enough for a world champion, who is classified as a top driver and who has experience of hundreds of kilometres in this particular car.

Mark Hughes (or Gary Anderson?) said Fernando Alonso is changing his driving style on every lap in order to maximise everything from his car. Sergio Perez said he doesn't have set-in-stone driving style and it is relatively easy for him to figure out tyre usage in races. Meanwhile Button can't adapt and he confirmed it himself during weekends such as Korea '10 or Malaysia, Canada this year, when he has no clue what to do.

Quote:
He can adapt to rear instability on corner entry better than I can. When he has that, he just throws on a lot of steering lock very suddenly, making the car understeer, and balancing it just right so that, by the time the understeer's reducing, you're into the corner and the transient instability is gone, or has been sort of damped out. I've seen it time and time again on the telemetry. When I try to do that, I just lose all feeling for the car; I cannot judge how much to do it by, it just feels so alien.


Who said that? Yep, Jenson Button in 2009.


You do realise something as simple as braking which is instinctive has an affect on set up which in turn has an affect on things like tyres don't you?

It's not as simple for any driver to switch to an alien style of driving. Certainly not in 22 laps.

Changing it from lap to lap as they Said Alonso does is a completely different thing. It is minute changes in comparison , anyway all drivers do that. They have to as the fuel load goes up and the grip changes through the track evolving or the tyre degrading. To go from Buttons style to Lewis' would effectively require a system re-boot.

and if a driver doesn't have a driving style, I bet that gives his engineers a head ache ;)




F1 is ever evolving. The rules, regs and the cars change ever so often and the best ones have always adapted sooner or later. If Button cannot adapt and he is sensitive to an extent where finding the sweet spot in the car is a rare occasion AND thereby blames it on what is arguably the fastest car, then he is not a worthy champion and definitely not a good sportsman.

His poor performances this year and his endless alibis are facts. The only delusional statements on this thread are the ones that try to examine Jenson's driving on a granular scale to defend his shortcomings.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Oh yeah,
I propose an amendment in the F1 regs

Any driver should be given a 10 spot grid pen when he badmouths the car he is driving if he failed to beat his teammate
That would sort out half the whining in F1. Of course no way to stop Alonso 's whine coz he is racing Newey :lol:



That could end up very bad for Lewis :P

Did not hear any complaint from Lewis about the Mp4-27 . He did not even blame McLaren for their incompetence ot poor reliabillity.
Hamilton had all reason to complain about the mistakes, blunders, and othr problems wich ruined his best season since 2007

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:46 pm 
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benmc wrote:
Johnston wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Just 3 tenths off kimi and alonso who had stopped at the same time.Webber if i recall stopped after the safety car came in.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/06/24/2 ... test-laps/
Bahrain hamilton had stopped a couple of laps earlier compared to vettel and rejoined right behind alonso. He was hardly able to show the true pace of the macca.



And is 3 tenths off second place man because of two leaders DNFing and slower because of being harder on tyres having a car that is front line race pace? Remember Kimi was able to pass Lewis and immediately pull a gap. Alonso was also able to pull a gap.

In Bahrain the car was harder on the tyres hurting it's pace. How can you say the car was on the pace of the front runners if it is losing time and having to pit two laps sooner due eating tyres quicker?


This. At several races this year the car had the pace but hurt it's tyres too much. Bahrain was really tough on their car. They also lost opportunities to win in Valencia (Hamilton) and Germany (Button) when looking like they would challenge Alonso.

I know that Button is mainly talking about his own problems there but there were some races where the car didn't have the pace, or was too hard on it's tyres. McLaren also lacked pace at some of the late flyaway races too. Really, a lack of pace wasn't the main thing that cost McLaren the title, but Jenson has a point.

I'm amazed really. Johnston's actually defending Hamilton here and even then you don't get off his back.

Hamilton needs no defending, because he made no mistakes this season on track, he was fast and put the car at the front row 11 times out of 20, and would have won the most races this season, if the car had better reliabillity and the team did a better job.
McLaren was the fastest car troughout the season, but it was wasted by team work, reliabillity and JBs tyre problems.
They could have walked both championships with this car.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:46 pm 
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ManojHS wrote:



F1 is ever evolving. The rules, regs and the cars change ever so often and the best ones have always adapted sooner or later. If Button cannot adapt and he is sensitive to an extent where finding the sweet spot in the car is a rare occasion AND thereby blames it on what is arguably the fastest car, then he is not a worthy champion and definitely not a good sportsman.

His poor performances this year and his endless alibis are facts. The only delusional statements on this thread are the ones that try to examine Jenson's driving on a granular scale to defend his shortcomings.



Even when F1 evolves a drivers basic core style stays the same. Button in his 12 years has seen more evolutions of rules than the majority of the grid. Yet he has always managed. Sure he is a little sensitive to set up.

The original thing was that Button should have been able to go from his style to drive like lewis in 22 laps. That is a completely different thing to adapting to new rules, tyres etc. Adapting to a different style is a complete re write of instincts.

No driver can change something like his braking technique overnight.

The MP4-27 had a small operating window. When they got the car in it it was top of the grid. When they missed the window it was off the pace or because it ate the tyres it dropped off the pace. That happened for both drivers.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:51 pm 
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I can't agree with Button there, if he's talking in terms of him personally winning the WDC then clearly his performance wasn't good enough to acheive that goal. Has for Hamilton the main issues were clearly mechanical reliability, team mistakes and being crashed out by other drivers, the performance of the car itself wasn't really an issue, sure there was a period mid season when the car lost competiveness but what other team was competitive throughout, there wasn't one.

I think over the course of the season the McLaren was more often than not the fastest car moreso than any other team, but its interesting to see Button's mental take on that when he has also said as a warning to Rosberg that Hamilton can sometimes do incredible things with a not so good car.

So on balance he seems to be saying ignore what Hamilton did with the car the performance level of the car is what i acheived, i don't think it would be good for him mentally to believe that other drivers would have done just as well as Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:57 pm 
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Haribo wrote:

Hamilton needs no defending, because he made no mistakes this season on track, he was fast and put the car at the front row 11 times out of 20, and would have won the most races this season, if the car had better reliabillity and the team did a better job.
McLaren was the fastest car troughout the season, but it was wasted by team work, reliabillity and JBs tyre problems.
They could have walked both championships with this car.



So if if he needs no defending, where was the lack of pace in Silverstone, Bahrain, Monaco and Valencia ?

Either the car was off the pace or he was. Which is it?

Oh and before the pit stop thing comes out. Pit stops don't affect lap times.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:07 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:

Hamilton needs no defending, because he made no mistakes this season on track, he was fast and put the car at the front row 11 times out of 20, and would have won the most races this season, if the car had better reliabillity and the team did a better job.
McLaren was the fastest car troughout the season, but it was wasted by team work, reliabillity and JBs tyre problems.
They could have walked both championships with this car.



So if if he needs no defending, where was the lack of pace in Silverstone, Bahrain, Monaco and Valencia ?

Either the car was off the pace or he was. Which is it?

Clearly the car was off the pace, which car was on the pace for all the races?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:

Hamilton needs no defending, because he made no mistakes this season on track, he was fast and put the car at the front row 11 times out of 20, and would have won the most races this season, if the car had better reliabillity and the team did a better job.
McLaren was the fastest car troughout the season, but it was wasted by team work, reliabillity and JBs tyre problems.
They could have walked both championships with this car.



So if if he needs no defending, where was the lack of pace in Silverstone, Bahrain, Monaco and Valencia ?

Either the car was off the pace or he was. Which is it?

Clearly the car was off the pace, which car was on the pace for all the races?


Realistically the hamilton/mclaren package was nowhere in Silverstone only. The other 3 races he was good for a 4-5th place finish without the 3 pit stop errors in Bahrain.

So in a 20 race season, that would be...
1/20 were the package was nowhere (Silverstone - 8th place)

3/20 good for a 4th-6th Finish.

16/20 good to challenge for win or podium challenge at least.

That is a strong package. Vettel/Alonso had a similar or more races were the car was not working.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:44 pm 
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lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:

Hamilton needs no defending, because he made no mistakes this season on track, he was fast and put the car at the front row 11 times out of 20, and would have won the most races this season, if the car had better reliabillity and the team did a better job.
McLaren was the fastest car troughout the season, but it was wasted by team work, reliabillity and JBs tyre problems.
They could have walked both championships with this car.



So if if he needs no defending, where was the lack of pace in Silverstone, Bahrain, Monaco and Valencia ?

Either the car was off the pace or he was. Which is it?

Clearly the car was off the pace, which car was on the pace for all the races?


Realistically the hamilton/mclaren package was nowhere in Silverstone only. The other 3 races he was good for a 4-5th place finish without the 3 pit stop errors in Bahrain.

So in a 20 race season, that would be...
1/20 were the package was nowhere (Silverstone - 8th place)

3/20 good for a 4th-6th Finish.

16/20 good to challenge for win or podium challenge at least.

That is a strong package. Vettel/Alonso had a similar or more races were the car was not working.

Thats clearly not good enough for Button though

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:45 pm 
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People read the title without reading where the quote came from. He was talking about the mid season slump lack of pace. Had they not had the issues with the tyres and lack of pace during those races they would have been in a much stronger position for the end of the season.

Then again, if the car had been reliable during the races they could have got away with the lack of pace.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Bigbazz wrote:
People read the title without reading where the quote came from. He was talking about the mid season slump lack of pace. Had they not had the issues with the tyres and lack of pace during those races they would have been in a much stronger position for the end of the season.

Then again, if the car had been reliable during the races they could have got away with the lack of pace.

I think there was too many things that went wrong to be able to put it down to one specific thing

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Bigbazz wrote:
People read the title without reading where the quote came from. He was talking about the mid season slump lack of pace. Had they not had the issues with the tyres and lack of pace during those races they would have been in a much stronger position for the end of the season.

Then again, if the car had been reliable during the races they could have got away with the lack of pace.

It was only 2 or 3 races where the car was lacking a bit of pace. At the rest of the races like Canada, Hungary, Barcelona, Malaysia it was fine.
2 or 3 races slightly off pace do not cost a championship, like some DNFs in a leading position do.

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