planetf1.com

The pace of the McLaren was fine, just as Hamilton shown, he would of been strong for winning the championship if it was not for the pit stop/tactical error's and the reliability problems, that show's they had a title winning car alone.

Button had strong pace at some races also, but Button needs the car suited perfectly to his style, so a few times it was not and he struggled, which is normal for Button. So yes he did lack pace at some races because like he even said him self, in a bad car Hamilton is very fast and he could not match him when the car was bad. So in that sense for Button at least he did not have a title winning car for most of the season, because at many races the car was not perfectly set-up for his style, and that means he "personally" lacked pace.

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Driver Instructor & Test Driver

I wonder if Alonso would agree on that one.

Truth is one thing on it's own does not lose a championship, it takes a combination of factors to lose a championship. DNFs have been part and parcel of F1 from it's inception. With components built to the limit and asked to last longer it is likely mechanical failures will always be part of F1.

Due to the rules we have been spoilt a little I feel on the reliability front.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

at the slower races McL might have lost a few positions, but reliabillity cost them some race wins & podiums

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Jenson thinks he is better than what he is, maybe that is why he never blames his lack of pace and always seems to find an excuse of why he was slow in the race or Quali.

I never hear Jenson saying he was just slow, maybe once of twice, it's always, dodn't have the balance, couldn't get the tyres working, it's so zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The MP4-27 never lacked pace, it was Jenson himself who lacked pace.

From mid November

http://duncanblog.dailymail.co.uk/2012/ ... laims.html

'That is definitely incorrect,' Button said when asked by Sky Sports pundit Martin Brundle if he'd labelled the MP4-27 as the worst McLaren he'd driven.

'This year’s car has obviously been good. We’ve won five grands prix and probably should have won more.

'What I said was this car probably doesn’t suit my style as much as the previous two years. I’ve found it more difficult to be consistently quick throughout the year.'

so that's 3 out of what 20 races? Jenson knows better than me but me thinks that pace was good on that car,reliability and incompetence cost them the title.

it would be good to see the actual numbers of points lost due to reliability issues compared to points lost due to lack of pace.

Both would be pretty meaningless . As the lost points would be mythical in races where anything could happen.

A lot gets said about Singapore and Abu. But with 2 thirds of the race still to go they weren't guaranteed points.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

When Jenson says stuff like that it makes me wonder how great his technical knowledge is. Is he just trying to minimize the hurt of the reliability issues? Its slightly less embarrassing for a team to be slow than to have reliability problems. Or does he really just not get it?

Between his issues with chasing setup and when he says things like "I don't know the regulations or how they affect us" (regarding the changes to exhaust rules in the middle of 2011) I always think...well why DON'T you know? You can bet Sebastian and Fernando had a full understanding of everything involved. Or does Jenson know and just not want to discuss it? Lewis sometimes seems clueless too - his engineers say he looks at other cars and questions why his doesn't have some bit like the others, surely he knows random pieces don't work that way? Is this a McLaren "thing" - where the drivers are slightly less technically involved?

Please don't think I'm condemning either of them, or McLaren, for it...and I guess my post is a bit neither here nor there in this thread...but the linked article is the sort of thing that makes me wonder about these questions.

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Would anyone of the drivers have known how the exhaust rules would have affected the cars?

I don't think many of them would have heard of the coanda affect.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

If the public and punters knew the physical effects of the rule changes, the drivers should. I don't mean in actual lap time, but behavior. There are other times I've heard them both say "I don't know the rules, I'll have to find out" (Like Lewis and his damaged floor) and each time my mind is a bit blown. I've always familiarized myself with all the regs for anything I'm competing in, no matter my role.

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The punters and public only surmised the difference. We here don't know what the difference it made and the drivers wouldn't know until they got it on track. found out about the Coanda when the teams started to use it and it became a buzz in the media. I don't remember anyone mentioning it until people started asking about the tunnels after the exhaust. everyone thought the days of Blown Diffusers were over (Inc the FIA)

Even the other teams were questioning Charlie on the teams that had the wee tunnel for the exhaust in winter testing. If the other teams weren't so sure of the rules and that includes the brain power of the designers, how would the drivers know something they don't for them to get an idea before the car is even built?

When the rules changes the drivers and us don't know what the designers will come up with. Like who said RBR would come out with an EBD before winter testing in '10? A driver could say "Yeah it will affect us massively" then on the flip the designer comes up with something genius. Or they say "Nah we won't lose much" that sends the red flag out for other teams to think they are on to something and they need to find it too.

As for not knowing the rules. It seems to happen quite often, like when schui knocked of his engine or in Monaco 2010. Wasn't it kimi that was reminded something at the beginning of the year . I suppose atthat level they have guys that get paid to know the rules. For the drivers it's just an extra distraction. Thats my take on it anyway.


Going on my experience of rallying the drivers knew feck all. If you wanted to know something ask the co driver they dealt with officialdom. That was from basic stuff all up to what time they actually had to clock in to the 1st stage time control at. Taking info from a driver would get you close to disqualification

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Again, Im not talking about numbers. The engineers and engine people knew exactly what affect changing off throttle blowing would have. They probably couldn't put a hard % or lap time loss on it, but they know how it changes the rest of the car's behavior. Its common sense. Plus, you know how it worked before you added it, some you should know what happens when you take it away again. When Jenson said he didn't know about it, it wasn't about how development would change or anything like that - it was more a straight up, what will happen if its gone this week compared to last week? and he said he didn't know what any of it meant, and implied he didn't even know specifically what was changing. I've always hoped he just didn't want to talk about it.

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Not in the middle of 2011. Remember the rules had only just changed. So the chances of thebrain boxes having had the coanda in the tunnel are very slim IMO.

Remember off throttle was never technically banned. they were still doing it this year.

Or are you talking about Silverstone and the one week ban?

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Silverstone and the "Valencia rules". Nothing to do with coanda or anything that happened this year.

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Got ya, I thought you meant when they announced the change in exhaust placement.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

These threads are ridiculous. I don't ever remember Hamilton getting this amount of bashing last year, or Raikkonen after '08. Guess that doesn't apply to some of the Hamilton obsessives who can't help blindly bashing a particular driver.

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I don't follow F1 so I don't know what I'm talking about

What a clown Button is. That car was quickest for a number of races and was probably, over the course of the year, the best package.

Button is not of top tier pace - he and Webber are very similar, good, flashes of speed, but generally nothing special.

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PLAY A RECORD KARL COS I'M GUNNA KNOCK YOU OUT!!!

Can't be serious, if this was an Hamilton thread this year or last it would be 5 + pages already mostly of bashing. But that's not the subjective here, I think things have been constructive on page two apart from this post.

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Driver Instructor & Test Driver

To be fair, did you honestly expect people to agree with Jenson. The comments are silly what he said, covering his own lack of performance which was shocking.

Maybe JB has just spent too much time in the Hawaiian sun.

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Even more ridiculous when you remember how on this same forum this time last year Button was being lavished with praise and declared McLaren's top driver. Some people just seem to have frightfully short memories. Writing Button off after a poor 2012 is as ridiculous as those who wrote Hamilton off after a poor 2011. One bad year doesn't make a bad driver.

I haven't read through every comment as no time (as at work )
I don't know why JB thinks the Macca lacked outright pace - yeah, in terms of an outright pace advantage like he enjoyed in the Brawn, he is right - but that was a freaky one off based on rule advantage , as was the Red Bull outright pace the following year.
I think the Macca was very close on pace to the Red Bulls in quali trim, and for a good portion of the season, was probably faster (or at least equal) in race trim. I recall a few races when they just didn't get on top of the circuit/conditions - but overall the Macca pace was very good.
My feeling is that JB simply doesn't like change - and perhaps takes too long to adjust. So a changing car, tyres, and regs will have upset him. Add to that new tracks and any tracks without a smooth 'style' track and smooth handling, he just doesn't seem to be able to cope as well as others (IMHO). Brazil was a good example, JB was as smooth as silk in that car and on that track in those conditions - and as has been said many times, when it (car, tyres, track, weather, etc) is absolutely spot on - he looks really really fast (and almost effortless!).
For my money, JB is more like an artist, or musician - when the 'vibe' is flowing he is relentless, perfect even, but when it's not he is 'just another driver' - and that is definately not meant to disrespect him! In a way, I think Vettel is the same (but since he generally has had the fastest car, it's hard to demonstrate) - but sometimes he just seems so calm and serene in the car - usually out front - and just munching into the miles on the track in a smooth and effortless way.
By direct contrast, we rarely see LH or FA driving like that (unless with a significant performance or race time advantage, so that they are 'cruising') - they nearly always seem to be 'pushing' the car to its limits, sliding, making little mistakes, etc, etc. That is certainly the impression I have got from recent seasons anyway, but I accept that of late LH has 'toned down' a bit. I don't know if this is their racing/driving 'aggression' or driving 'style' but the difference is noticeable between the top drivers.
Returning to the 'lack of pace' comment - I simply think JB hasn't always been able to be 'smooth' in the MP4-27 and that has perhaps affected his 'appreciation' or 'belief' of the actual cars pace - if that makes sense. I recall a couple of occasions where he said he couldn't see where LH had got the pace from (or am I just remembering wrong?)

I said earlier that I disagree with Jenson if he's trying to say a lack of pace was the main reason McLaren lost the title, but there were clearly some races where the McLaren hurt it's tyres too much, and some others towards the end of the season where Red Bull was much faster, so in a way he had a point.

But when people say... 'The car obviously wasn't fast enough for Jenson'... Things like that.... I take it the car wasn't fast enough for Hamilton to comfortably finish second in the WDC last year? Or that Kimi's 2008 car, which nearly won both titles, wasn't fast enough either?

No. You don't see people saying those sorts of things, for good reason. Like j man said, drivers have bad years. You Hamilton lot should know that better than anyone.

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I don't follow F1 so I don't know what I'm talking about

Maybe I've missed the negative Button threads, but Hamilton got a pretty good trouncing after his 2011 season and Raikkonen got a battering during and after 2008. The fact is, Hamilton won 7 poles (nearly , won 4 races (which could have been 6 or maybe even 7 with Brazil). Button won 1 pole, at a time when that McLaren was *clearly* the fastest car.

Button was generally dreadful in 2012, and it's quite a shame (imo) that he finished just 2 points behind Hamilton - on the face of it, it makes Hamilton's season look far worse than it was.

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PLAY A RECORD KARL COS I'M GUNNA KNOCK YOU OUT!!!

I don't remember Hamilton compalining about the team/car for his 2011 performances

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PFI Pick 10 Competition

Current Standing: 16th

I agree with Haribo's opening words: Hamilton had the pace all the way through, but was unlucky several times. JB had compatability issues with his car mid-season; overall his pre-race and race time averages were almsot 0.5 sec/lap off Hamilton's times. JB 's quali times and grid places are too far back. There was no way he'd have beaten Lewis, or Sebastian Vettel anyway for the title. Or Alonso.

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http://grandprixratings.blogspot.com

What does that have to do with anything? I didn't say Button didn't complain. As I have already said, I mostly disagree with what he said.

Anyway, if you want to play that game... http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/11062011/66/hamilton-says-car-slow.html

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I don't follow F1 so I don't know what I'm talking about

The thing is though the car wasn't quick enough in 2011, but at seasons end Hamilton admitted he didn't perform well, Button doesn't seem to put his lack of performance to be down to him, the car didn't suit him, the tyres didn't suit him, the car wasn't quick enough etc.

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PFI Pick 10 Competition

Current Standing: 16th

Artists are artist because they have inspiration and can inprovise . JB is more someone who learened to play well, but when you take away his notes(sheet music) or change suddenly the rythm/ balance, he struggles. IMo he would be good at copying paintings, but not great at create something new.
The ability to drive around problems or to haldle a difficult car is more a kind of art for me, than to work well with a perfect tool at perfect conditions.
Just my view

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Kind of saying " the damn floor hit me" when falling flat on the face, after stumbling over his own feet

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Saying this kind of thing, he's very much doubted to be a leader at a top team next year...... unless he gets a massively superior car like Brawn 09, I predict McLaren will fail again big time despite maybe having the best car next year (which is most likely so)

Now i would understand if Fernando or Kimi said this but Jenson really...?

Well no it's not like saying that, at all. He blamed his poor 2011 season on himself, he didn't blame anything else. Button however blames lack of 2012 championship contention on the car, which is bullsh*t as evidenced by Hamilton scoring the most poles of the season and, without reliability issues, would have won the most races.

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PLAY A RECORD KARL COS I'M GUNNA KNOCK YOU OUT!!!

While I agree the car's pace wasn't the problem, poles are irrelevant to race pace so hamilton's stats in that area are meaningless. Look at the Mercs. Saturday pace did nothing for them on Sunday.

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But in this instance Hamilton would have had the most wins easily if not for mechanical unreliability and team errors so the race pace was invariable very good as well, also add on 3 wins for Button

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PFI Pick 10 Competition

Current Standing: 16th

Well as I said, it was good in qualifying AND the race, not just qualifying (ergo it was a quick car), which is what you seem to be concentrating on here (for what reason, I'm not sure). Looking at the season as a whole, it was the best car - great pace in both qualifying and the race, as evidenced by Hamilton.

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PLAY A RECORD KARL COS I'M GUNNA KNOCK YOU OUT!!!

Just saying that "Hamilton scoring the most poles" is not evidence of competitive race pace.

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Right, but as I said, without reliability issues, would have won the most races also... Evidence of competitive race pace. I don't know why you're separating the two - the car was quick in qualifying and quick in the race... I never said, nor alluded to "the car was quick in qualifying, thus it was quick in the race".

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PLAY A RECORD KARL COS I'M GUNNA KNOCK YOU OUT!!!

their pace was fine, during the season many thought that McLaren was the fastest car there and many times i've read that McLaren had the fastest car in 2012, their pace was not the issue at all evidence to show this is that Hamilton could have won the WDC if it were not for team errors and mechanical failures, simple as that.