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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:23 pm 
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sgt.hartman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Just saying that "Hamilton scoring the most poles" is not evidence of competitive race pace.


Right, but as I said, without reliability issues, might have won the most races also... Evidence of competitive race pace. I don't know why you're separating the two - the car was quick in qualifying and quick in the race... I never said, nor alluded to "the car was quick in qualifying, thus it was quick in the race".


No race is guaranteed at 1/3 distance.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
sgt.hartman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Just saying that "Hamilton scoring the most poles" is not evidence of competitive race pace.


Right, but as I said, without reliability issues, might have won the most races also... Evidence of competitive race pace. I don't know why you're separating the two - the car was quick in qualifying and quick in the race... I never said, nor alluded to "the car was quick in qualifying, thus it was quick in the race".


No race is guaranteed at 1/3 distance.

Obviously not if you're driving a McLaren, i thought that was the point?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
sgt.hartman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Just saying that "Hamilton scoring the most poles" is not evidence of competitive race pace.


Right, but as I said, without reliability issues, might have won the most races also... Evidence of competitive race pace. I don't know why you're separating the two - the car was quick in qualifying and quick in the race... I never said, nor alluded to "the car was quick in qualifying, thus it was quick in the race".


No race is guaranteed at 1/3 distance.

Obviously not if you're driving a McLaren, i thought that was the point?


They original quote was Would. I changed it to something more realistic ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:59 pm 
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You said "as evidenced by [irrelevant info] and [hypothetical results]".

That's not the kind of evidence is want to take to court ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:23 pm 
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sgt.hartman wrote:
Haribo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The thing is though the car wasn't quick enough in 2011, but at seasons end Hamilton admitted he didn't perform well, Button doesn't seem to put his lack of performance to be down to him, the car didn't suit him, the tyres didn't suit him, the car wasn't quick enough etc.

Kind of saying " the damn floor hit me" when falling flat on the face, after stumbling over his own feet


Well no it's not like saying that, at all. He blamed his poor 2011 season on himself, he didn't blame anything else. Button however blames lack of 2012 championship contention on the car, which is bullsh*t as evidenced by Hamilton scoring the most poles of the season and, without reliability issues, would have won the most races.

I meant Button, blaming the floor for falling on it.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:35 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Just saying that "Hamilton scoring the most poles" is not evidence of competitive race pace.

The race pace was very, fast, too.
When Hamilton lost pos in the race it was never due lacking pace, it always had other reasons, like mechanical problems, bad pit stops etc.
McLarens race pace was fine.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:46 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
While I agree the car's pace wasn't the problem, poles are irrelevant to race pace so hamilton's stats in that area are meaningless. Look at the Mercs. Saturday pace did nothing for them on Sunday.

Mercs pace is irrelevant. It proves nothing for McLaren.
McLaren had 8 ( with barcelona 9) poles
and 7 wins. It could have been 10
If a car had the potential to win at least 50% of all GPs a season, it is fast.

Even Whitmarsh said :We have underperformed. We haven't done a good enough job in a number of different ways but we've had a quick car and that is an achievement.
"We have done some good things but we haven't nailed it in the way I would have liked.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:57 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
You said "as evidenced by [irrelevant info] and [hypothetical results]".

That's not the kind of evidence is want to take to court ;)


But this is not a court but an internet forum, are you saying that the McLaren wasn't fast enough to win the WDC for one of their drivers?

When we're looking at reliability issues of course we are taking into consideration what might have happened in order to estimate how much reliability faults cost them, and i don't think that analysing the point loss from reliability is irrelevant to the discussion of which cost them more, a lack of pace or reliability problems.

But then again you are partly right because this whole discussion is irrelevant, the fact is Button is making excuses, who is genuinely going to deny that without McLaren errors Hamilton wouldn't have had a great chance at winning the WDC? Which shows that the McLaren had enough pace to win the title. How can a car that i've read so many say was the fastest of the season not be fast enough to win the WDC? Why did Hamilton not challenge for the title until the end? It certainly wasn't because he or the McLaren lacked pace.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:22 am 
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Haribo wrote:
Artists are artist because they have inspiration and can inprovise . JB is more someone who learened to play well, but when you take away his notes(sheet music) or change suddenly the rythm/ balance, he struggles. IMo he would be good at copying paintings, but not great at create something new.
The ability to drive around problems or to haldle a difficult car is more a kind of art for me, than to work well with a perfect tool at perfect conditions.
Just my view :)


Actually I tend to agree - I was kind of meaning more in the 'vibe' sense of an artist/musician - getting in the 'flow' of natural outpourings or 'art/expression'! - but yeah, as you suggest, JB possibly doesn't have much 'original' expression in him!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:48 am 
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I already said pace wasn't their issue, but I base that on consistently competitive race laps at nearly every round, which is both relevant and factual, not based on qual or hypothetical results. Give better care in considering your basis for an opinion is all I'm saying.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:22 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
I already said pace wasn't their issue, but I base that on consistently competitive race laps at nearly every round, which is both relevant and factual, not based on qual or hypothetical results. Give better care in considering your basis for an opinion is all I'm saying.


i prefer to watch the races rather than live timing


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:26 am 
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pace was the one thing they got right.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:47 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
You said "as evidenced by [irrelevant info] and [hypothetical results]".

That's not the kind of evidence is want to take to court ;)


I think the context of this thread has gone over your head.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:47 am 
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Haribo wrote:
sgt.hartman wrote:
Haribo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The thing is though the car wasn't quick enough in 2011, but at seasons end Hamilton admitted he didn't perform well, Button doesn't seem to put his lack of performance to be down to him, the car didn't suit him, the tyres didn't suit him, the car wasn't quick enough etc.

Kind of saying " the damn floor hit me" when falling flat on the face, after stumbling over his own feet


Well no it's not like saying that, at all. He blamed his poor 2011 season on himself, he didn't blame anything else. Button however blames lack of 2012 championship contention on the car, which is bullsh*t as evidenced by Hamilton scoring the most poles of the season and, without reliability issues, would have won the most races.

I meant Button, blaming the floor for falling on it.


Ah, sorry for the mix up.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:08 am 
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Thing is when you look at the quote in the PF1 site

Quote:
But the most difficult part for us was before the summer break when we just didn't have the pace


when he said "Us" who is "Us"? who is "We"

McLaren as a whole or his side of the garage?

If you look he also said

Quote:
"We tried new things because I struggled to get tyre temperature more than most, and it didn't work, it just destroyed the tyres around Monaco and Canada time,"


Now Lewis wasn't trying new things. So does he Mean "We" as in just his side?

and can any one argue that the tyres didn't slow the pace of his car?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:58 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Thing is when you look at the quote in the PF1 site

Quote:
But the most difficult part for us was before the summer break when we just didn't have the pace


when he said "Us" who is "Us"? who is "We"

McLaren as a whole or his side of the garage?

If you look he also said

Quote:
"We tried new things because I struggled to get tyre temperature more than most, and it didn't work, it just destroyed the tyres around Monaco and Canada time,"


Now Lewis wasn't trying new things. So does he Mean "We" as in just his side?

and can any one argue that the tyres didn't slow the pace of his car?


I think you're right - it's the F1 "we", as in "me." As others have alluded to, without the mechanical/operational issues it seems as if one of the Maccas might have had a decent shot at the title, but if Button is saying that he didn't have the pace to challenge for the title, I think it's fair to agree with him.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:53 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
You said "as evidenced by [irrelevant info] and [hypothetical results]".

That's not the kind of evidence is want to take to court ;)


But this is not a court but an internet forum, are you saying that the McLaren wasn't fast enough to win the WDC for one of their drivers?

When we're looking at reliability issues of course we are taking into consideration what might have happened in order to estimate how much reliability faults cost them, and i don't think that analysing the point loss from reliability is irrelevant to the discussion of which cost them more, a lack of pace or reliability problems.

But then again you are partly right because this whole discussion is irrelevant, the fact is Button is making excuses, who is genuinely going to deny that without McLaren errors Hamilton wouldn't have had a great chance at winning the WDC? Which shows that the McLaren had enough pace to win the title. How can a car that i've read so many say was the fastest of the season not be fast enough to win the WDC? Why did Hamilton not challenge for the title until the end? It certainly wasn't because he or the McLaren lacked pace.

Exactly its quite ridiculous to suggest that the Mclaren lacked race pace when it had 7 wins which should have been 10 wins if not for factors unrelated to poor race pace

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:56 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Thing is when you look at the quote in the PF1 site

Quote:
But the most difficult part for us was before the summer break when we just didn't have the pace


when he said "Us" who is "Us"? who is "We"

McLaren as a whole or his side of the garage?

If you look he also said

Quote:
"We tried new things because I struggled to get tyre temperature more than most, and it didn't work, it just destroyed the tyres around Monaco and Canada time,"


Now Lewis wasn't trying new things. So does he Mean "We" as in just his side?

and can any one argue that the tyres didn't slow the pace of his car?


I think you're right - it's the F1 "we", as in "me." As others have alluded to, without the mechanical/operational issues it seems as if one of the Maccas might have had a decent shot at the title, but if Button is saying that he didn't have the pace to challenge for the title, I think it's fair to agree with him.

Then you can say he's using the word "we" so as not to put any blame onto himself

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
fieldstvl wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Thing is when you look at the quote in the PF1 site

Quote:
But the most difficult part for us was before the summer break when we just didn't have the pace


when he said "Us" who is "Us"? who is "We"

McLaren as a whole or his side of the garage?

If you look he also said

Quote:
"We tried new things because I struggled to get tyre temperature more than most, and it didn't work, it just destroyed the tyres around Monaco and Canada time,"


Now Lewis wasn't trying new things. So does he Mean "We" as in just his side?

and can any one argue that the tyres didn't slow the pace of his car?


I think you're right - it's the F1 "we", as in "me." As others have alluded to, without the mechanical/operational issues it seems as if one of the Maccas might have had a decent shot at the title, but if Button is saying that he didn't have the pace to challenge for the title, I think it's fair to agree with him.

Then you can say he's using the word "we" so as not to put any blame onto himself


I suppose quite often we hear "we" used in both "we won" and "we lost", so it all balances out I'm sure.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Then you can say he's using the word "we" so as not to put any blame onto himself

#

Like all drivers he's only a part of the equation.

It is a team sport after all and he's not entirely responsible for the issues.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:31 pm 
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No i actually find the wording quite interesting, when Button first joined McLaren a lot was made of the wording used in early press releases, Hamilton would say we, Button would say I, now to explain the 2012 lack of performance he's using the term we, if things go well for him next season it will be interesting to see which terminology he uses.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:57 pm 
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Button struggled from May to July, consistently finishing outside the top six, but those performances helped the team in a way, Button added.

"We tried new things because I struggled to get tyre temperature more than most, and it didn't work, it just destroyed the tyres around Monaco and Canada time," he said.

"Lewis had a good race in Canada and I had such a bad race, and it was good for the rest of the year in a way because we had the two extremes so we could look at the data, get in the simulator, change the balance around, and work out why I had so much degradation and he didn't.

"It was really useful to learn what you can and cannot do with the tyres, because it's different to what you'd usually think."

Right here is what may be worrying Jenson if he meets these issues again next season he won't have Lewis's data to bring him back on track .

You will notice that he feels it was useful for the team when he struggled between May and July !!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Qiwater wrote:
Button struggled from May to July, consistently finishing outside the top six, but those performances helped the team in a way, Button added.

"We tried new things because I struggled to get tyre temperature more than most, and it didn't work, it just destroyed the tyres around Monaco and Canada time," he said.

"Lewis had a good race in Canada and I had such a bad race, and it was good for the rest of the year in a way because we had the two extremes so we could look at the data, get in the simulator, change the balance around, and work out why I had so much degradation and he didn't.

"It was really useful to learn what you can and cannot do with the tyres, because it's different to what you'd usually think."

Right here is what may be worrying Jenson if he meets these issues again next season he won't have Lewis's data to bring him back on track .

You will notice that he feels it was useful for the team when he struggled between May and July !!

He could have looked at Hamiltons data much erlier instead of keeping on the wrong route. would have helped them much more. They lost time, resources and WCC points

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:00 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Qiwater wrote:
Button struggled from May to July, consistently finishing outside the top six, but those performances helped the team in a way, Button added.

"We tried new things because I struggled to get tyre temperature more than most, and it didn't work, it just destroyed the tyres around Monaco and Canada time," he said.

"Lewis had a good race in Canada and I had such a bad race, and it was good for the rest of the year in a way because we had the two extremes so we could look at the data, get in the simulator, change the balance around, and work out why I had so much degradation and he didn't.

"It was really useful to learn what you can and cannot do with the tyres, because it's different to what you'd usually think."

Right here is what may be worrying Jenson if he meets these issues again next season he won't have Lewis's data to bring him back on track .

You will notice that he feels it was useful for the team when he struggled between May and July !!

He could have looked at Hamiltons data much erlier instead of keeping on the wrong route. would have helped them much more. They lost time, resources and WCC points


Is he the one who looks at the data?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:53 pm 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Qiwater wrote:
Button struggled from May to July, consistently finishing outside the top six, but those performances helped the team in a way, Button added.

"We tried new things because I struggled to get tyre temperature more than most, and it didn't work, it just destroyed the tyres around Monaco and Canada time," he said.

"Lewis had a good race in Canada and I had such a bad race, and it was good for the rest of the year in a way because we had the two extremes so we could look at the data, get in the simulator, change the balance around, and work out why I had so much degradation and he didn't.

"It was really useful to learn what you can and cannot do with the tyres, because it's different to what you'd usually think."

Right here is what may be worrying Jenson if he meets these issues again next season he won't have Lewis's data to bring him back on track .

You will notice that he feels it was useful for the team when he struggled between May and July !!

He could have looked at Hamiltons data much erlier instead of keeping on the wrong route. would have helped them much more. They lost time, resources and WCC points


Is he the one who looks at the data?


No I don't think he does Lewis said he walked in and found both sides of the garage pouring over his data to get Jenson up to speed .


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
No i actually find the wording quite interesting, when Button first joined McLaren a lot was made of the wording used in early press releases, Hamilton would say we, Button would say I, now to explain the 2012 lack of performance he's using the term we, if things go well for him next season it will be interesting to see which terminology he uses.


Ummmmmm

Picture the scene in a Press conference

Question for Lewis "how do you think working with Jenson go"?
Lewis: I think we will work well together


Question for Jenson "Jenson why did you choose to leave Brawn for McLaren"?
Jenson: I wanted to come to a team that is proven to challenge every year and I wanted to race against who I think is the fastest driver on the grid in the same equipment


Yes the wording is interesting and is usually the product of the question that leads it

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:43 pm 
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sgt.hartman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
You said "as evidenced by [irrelevant info] and [hypothetical results]".

That's not the kind of evidence is want to take to court ;)


I think the context of this thread has gone over your head.

How? Jenson said they lacked pace, most people disagree, some give reasons for why they disagree, and some of those reasons are not real evidence, some people debate what he meant.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:50 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
How? Jenson said they lacked pace, most people disagree, some give reasons for why they disagree, and some of those reasons are not real evidence, some people debate what he meant.


some are watching the darts sipping on Bushmills Finest :P

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
How? Jenson said they lacked pace, most people disagree, some give reasons for why they disagree, and some of those reasons are not real evidence, some people debate what he meant.


some are watching the darts sipping on Bushmills Finest :P

half my twitter feed is talking about darts...people in this country don't care about darts, let alone watch it on tv

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:21 pm 
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Qiwater wrote:
No I don't think he does Lewis said he walked in and found both sides of the garage pouring over his data to get Jenson up to speed .


I don't recall Lewis ever saying that. I remember the team and Jenson saying that they used the base setup Lewis had pre Valencia and started again from there as they know that this was a good baseline to start with again after loosing their way.

Anyhow what you said proves that actually the setup changes that made Jenson not competitive and then got him back competitive were not his own responsibility but rather the team (or his side of the garage at least) since they are the ones who fixed it. So for what he is saying yes for him the car lacked pace from his perspective. From Lewis' no that never happened.

I believe the team let him down in terms of setting up his car just as much as they let Lewis down with their reliability. but the car on its own always had the potential


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:37 pm 
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I doubt that JB and his side of the team will ever need to look at the other driver data, he is a very well season veteran and his own racecraft and smooth driving style will take care of the rest, he will have a field day with the competition now that lulu left and he's in charge of directing the input on how to develop the car. I put good money on the line he will be champion by 3/4 of next season, mark my words.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:19 am 
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Every driver can benefit from two cars worth of data vs. one, because every engineer can do more with more data.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:29 am 
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Ilovemyhaters wrote:
I doubt that JB and his side of the team will ever need to look at the other driver data, he is a very well season veteran and his own racecraft and smooth driving style will take care of the rest, he will have a field day with the competition now that lulu left and he's in charge of directing the input on how to develop the car. I put good money on the line he will be champion by 3/4 of next season, mark my words.

Apart from the time this year when all the race engineers were pouring over Hamilton's data with Button in attendance, to find out what he was doing differently to Button

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:02 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Ilovemyhaters wrote:
I doubt that JB and his side of the team will ever need to look at the other driver data, he is a very well season veteran and his own racecraft and smooth driving style will take care of the rest, he will have a field day with the competition now that lulu left and he's in charge of directing the input on how to develop the car. I put good money on the line he will be champion by 3/4 of next season, mark my words.


Wow :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Ilovemyhaters wrote:
I doubt that JB and his side of the team will ever need to look at the other driver data, he is a very well season veteran and his own racecraft and smooth driving style will take care of the rest, he will have a field day with the competition now that lulu left and he's in charge of directing the input on how to develop the car. I put good money on the line he will be champion by 3/4 of next season, mark my words.

Hahaha, ask Rubens Baricello, ask Lewis Hamillton, ask Jenson Button himself


Quote:
Button’s decision to copy team-mate Lewis Hamilton’s exact set-up on Friday morning was both an admission from the McLaren driver that he has lost his way badly in recent weeks and an attempt to go back to the drawing board.

Hamilton, of course, won the last race in Montreal two weeks ago and Button, who has taken just two points from his last four outings while dropping to eighth in the standings, said his team-mate’s winning set-up would be a “good place to start” as he seeks to relaunch his faltering title campaign.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... rack.html#

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least once this year too.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:26 pm 
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GoOnJenson wrote:
Pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least once this year too.

Maybe so but aren't we talking about pouring through someones data to see how they are driving differently to you?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
GoOnJenson wrote:
Pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least once this year too.

Maybe so but aren't we talking about pouring through someones data to see how they are driving differently to you?



It's not "Someones Data"

It's McLarens Data.


McLaren owns it and they can do whatever they want with it.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GoOnJenson wrote:
Pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least once this year too.

Maybe so but aren't we talking about pouring through someones data to see how they are driving differently to you?



It's not "Someones Data"

It's McLarens Data.


McLaren owns it and they can do whatever they want with it.

I think you missed where the thread was going that Button doesn't need to look at the data of another driver

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:48 pm 
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GoOnJenson wrote:
Pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least once this year too.

Why should he?

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