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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:42 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Everyone looks at everyone else's data within a team, all the time. Its standard. That's how they figure out what to do with the cars short and long term. Why do you think they have a million engineers collecting and analyzing the stuff? Its a TEAM effort. I don't understand where this "one had to use the other's info to figure out what to do" thing comes from - they all look at each other's info constantly, and everyone learns something from it one way or the other. Standard operating procedure.

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Now, only talk DOWN the table fellas, not ACROSS it, lest the dark side learn our data.

IMO not every little bit is shared the drivers & their engineers try to keep some little secrets for themselfes, to have a little advantage over the other side of the greage.
Hamilton mentioned it, when he said he was surprised, to see ALL engineers ( his engineers, too) sit around the table, with all of his data, to the bits, all his tiny little secrets everything he worked out with his engineers.

IME (that's experience, not opinion) the guys who are there for both cars, meaning the designers, know everything that's going on with both cars. If they didn't, they'd never know how to develop the car. So there aren't really any super valuable secrets being guarded by one driver's engineers. They might not go advertising something they've found, but the data is always available to the other side to look for whatever they want.

If they knew anything why did it take them so much time to solve Buttons problems? The were up to a blind ally for some races, developed JBs car in the wrong direction, while Lewis was able to put it on pole and fight for wins?
I never said super valuable secrets, but there are little things wich are being kept between a driver and his race engineers, or wich keep drivers for themselfes , wich are not easily read out of telemetry data.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:50 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
IMO not every little bit is shared the drivers & their engineers try to keep some little secrets for themselfes, to have a little advantage over the other side of the greage.
Hamilton mentioned it, when he said he was surprised, to see ALL engineers ( his engineers, too) sit around the table, with all of his data, to the bits, all his tiny little secrets everything he worked out with his engineers.


They used to they can't now.

Gone are the days everything was hand written in a chart and handed over. When they used to write the wrong info.

Everything is through computers and then through the chain of command. Remember Lewis old Race engineer is now over the top of the two race engineers. So info for both cars goes through one man as it goes up the ladder. Keeping stuff a secret between driver and RE would be a bit daft too. What happens if his RE is sick? the replacement doesn't know his foibles and his race is screwed.

Heck for all we know, it was just the usual engineering Dept. post race debrief at Woking. It was just the first time Lewis had ever walked in on one and the first time he discovered what they did.

Drivers take part at those post race debriefs so, I'm sure it was not the 1st Hamilton walked in, or took part, but obviously, he was surprised to see something there, wich he has called his little secrets
A race engineer & a driver have to trust each other, they usually have a very close relationship, and if Lewis " secrets" really were some kind of little private informations between him and his race engineers I can understand his surprise

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:07 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Haha the tricky Pirellis "burnt" just faster when they were too cold. Both had the same effect, too cold & too hot tyres, both wore out too fast. Only the right temperature made them last

Thats an inaccurate characterization actually. There are temps at which a compound will work and temps where it won't, and thats regardless of wear. When you talk of "wear" there are different types - damage (blistering for example), and usage (you physically wear past the useful part of the tire's surface). Tires don't automatically wear away faster when they are hot. Don't confuse wear with temperature, they are their own independent issues.

The wrong temperature causes heavier degeneration, regardless if the temperatures have been too high, or too low, the effect was the same.
Too cold tyres, got a surface like glass after few ( 1 or 2 are enough therefore) laps, once those surface is " frozen" the effect can't be made reverse. The car starts to slide around on those tyres, wich leads to extensive degeneration.
Same effect when the tyres overheat , and the surface got burned.
This was explained from Nico Rosberg, when he spoke about the problems Merc had with the tyres, and their high degeneration they suffered.
JB suffered the same problems , therfore they did not realise if the tyres had been too hot or too cold for quite some time because the effect was the same, but the right solution for either problem ( overheated, or underheated)were quite different.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:30 pm 
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Degeneration is not a tire wear problem I've ever heard of.

Tires don't become glass-like or burn really. The contact patch either grips the road surface, or it doesn't. For every compound, there is a temperature at which it is chemically able to grip the surface, and one above which it can't. You can take a tire that was not heated enough, OR one that was heated TOO much, off of a car and have it look completely fine and normal. You can also take a tire off that had loads of grip, but has a damaged surface. Also, sliding on a tire doesn't ALWAYS damage it, but it DOES heat it up. That's why sliding a tire around is a useful tool for putting energy (heat) into a tire. You can also slide on a tire that does offer grip, and doing that can put too much heat into the tire, or damage it. You don't get degradation from too low temp, you just don't get grip. That can also be part of strategy - you might want one end to be a bit too cold at some point to give you some added under or oversteer to help balance another issue, or get a particularly good exit somewhere when you're defending, etc. I think you're having a hard time separating thermal degradation of GRIP from physical WEAR degradation, and damage. And I think trying to explain it to you from the end result backward is dumb, but a start to finish tire lesson isn't in the cards tonight.

Also, Merc's tire woes were a little different from everyone else's. Ross kept saying they were seeing different behavior from different sets of the SAME compound under the same conditions, which would imply a quality control issue at Pirelli. Whether they really saw that or were just trying to play the blame game we can't know.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:34 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Haha the tricky Pirellis "burnt" just faster when they were too cold. Both had the same effect, too cold & too hot tyres, both wore out too fast. Only the right temperature made them last

Thats an inaccurate characterization actually. There are temps at which a compound will work and temps where it won't, and thats regardless of wear. When you talk of "wear" there are different types - damage (blistering for example), and usage (you physically wear past the useful part of the tire's surface). Tires don't automatically wear away faster when they are hot. Don't confuse wear with temperature, they are their own independent issues.

The wrong temperature causes heavier degeneration, regardless if the temperatures have been too high, or too low, the effect was the same.
Too cold tyres, got a surface like glass after few ( 1 or 2 are enough therefore) laps, once those surface is " frozen" the effect can't be made reverse. The car starts to slide around on those tyres, wich leads to extensive degeneration.
Same effect when the tyres overheat , and the surface got burned.
This was explained from Nico Rosberg, when he spoke about the problems Merc had with the tyres, and their high degeneration they suffered.
JB suffered the same problems , therfore they did not realise if the tyres had been too hot or too cold for quite some time because the effect was the same, but the right solution for either problem ( overheated, or underheated)were quite different.


F1 cars have multi channel infrared sensors right at each wheel measuring temps every second. they know if it is under or overheated


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:59 am 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton himself said he made an alteration to his driving in order to get better performance out of the tyres, he even added that perhaps other drivers were already doing this but didn't say what he was actually doing, why would he?

Then we see the all the race engineers and Button looking through his telemetry/data to see exactly what Hamilton was doing, i just question given all this why Button could not replicate this thats all.


I highly doubt that drivers change their styles exteremly, a driver uses a certain style or works up to it since his Karting days in his early teens. this is what makes him fast, of course some changes are made but they are simple and mostly design dictated for example "don't overlap throttle and brakes" " don't keep braking till the apex", but mostly things don't change radically and even with these minor changes drivers will mostly take the whole weekend to get used to it and find pace.

That is why i believe Button's problem is something different than his style which he has been using in F1 for 12 years now

Well i believe Jenson has complained about the car and tyres at seasons end

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:06 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
Everyone has to adapt to the tires every year. In every team I've ever been involved with with multiple drivers, its standard to compare the telemetry. Who braked later, who got on the throttle sooner, who had less wheelspin, and where all that happened, etc.

Jenson wouldn't even need to see telemetry to know what Lewis does differently - watching an onboard would tell him that. Drivers cant just copy each other's actions though, it has to feel good, and what feels good and is fast for one won't always feel good and be fast for another.

I don't think Jenson's results at any point during the year were due to being unable to adapt to anything. I think in most of the races where there was an extreme difference in performance between the two drivers, there was an extreme difference between the two cars. For me, both drivers did a solid job this year, very few mistakes.

That said, and getting back to the point of the thread really, I think at all but maybe 3 rounds at least ONE OF the McLarens had he pace to win, and that should have been enough to win a championship or two. But it was't, because of mistakes (pitstops, refueling), failures (roll bar, gearboxes), and risky decision making (race and qual strategies). I won't label the development path a mistake or poor decision because who knows what they gained from it. Prolonging Jenson's misery may have given them the info needed to develop parts that allowed both Jenson and Lewis to win later in the season. Or what they will apply to the 2013 car.

So i guess what you're saying is that Button basically just totally lost his way with set up?

Would copying Hamilton's set up be simply no good because of driving styles?

I agree with what you say but i'm confused because earlier i thought you said the McLaren didn't have the pace to win the titles? :?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:11 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
Errr...there are only so many ways to put energy into a tire, and none of them are a mystery to any F1 driver. In other words, there is no magic explanation in another driver's data. If you try everything and it doesn't work, there is a fundamental design problem in some aspect of the car. If its only happening on one car, there's probably something different about that car. I could give you some guesses about what development parts differed on the cars in those rounds, but we don't get to know the answers. Sometimes there's a story about a wing or a nose or something else that is easy for outsiders to see, but there are changes made constantly that we know nothing about. Even the tech guys who do their best to find and explain new things on the cars miss a lot of it. Nobody knew about RBR's secondary DRS use in Singapore really, for example, and that's a pretty big thing. Years from now an interview with Paddy Lowe might tell us McLaren was trying something crazy.

Trying something crazy on Button's car because he struggled in previous races and making his problems even worse?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:13 am 
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No, I don't think he lost his way. Go back and read the post in which I detail what I think happened with Jenson. Page 6.

I also never said McLaren didn't have the pace to win. I said that at all but maybe 3 rounds they had at least one car capable of winning, and that should have been enough to get them a title or two if they hadn't made operational mistakes, suffered failures, and made risky decisions. On faith and drivability, I absolutely believe Lewis had a car he could have won the championship in.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:18 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
FWIW...I think in many teams at the beginning of the season one side of the garage ventured into the unknown to try things to get a leg up on everyone, while the other side went with what they knew worked. In F1, especially with the crazy tire situation early on, you can't just be content to have a car that's inching ahead THIS weekend... you need to always be thinking and working long term. I think McLaren was using Jenson, most likely with his blessing, to try different things to be even better than what they already knew worked. I think Sebastian was doing the same thing. Sort of, "I'm not completely happy with what we have, even though its reasonably competitive, so we're going to go further outside of the box to find a greater advantage". The data collected in that process would be very useful to the designers compared to both sides using the same packages and ideas with just slightly varied setups. Unfortunately on-track incidents and operational failures muddy the data a bit, and make the whole process take longer. All a consequence of the limited testing...

This being true Button agreed because he'd already fallen out of WDC contention?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:44 am 
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Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton himself said he made an alteration to his driving in order to get better performance out of the tyres, he even added that perhaps other drivers were already doing this but didn't say what he was actually doing, why would he?

Then we see the all the race engineers and Button looking through his telemetry/data to see exactly what Hamilton was doing, i just question given all this why Button could not replicate this thats all.




Whether some worked it out because of skill or whether it was because the tyres worked better with their natural style so there was less changing needed, as far as we are concerned it's anyones guess. So say for one driver it might have only needed small changes. For another it might have needed huge changes. Who would work it out quicker? It was said by a number of people the tyres weren't behaving in the traditional manner. So again that threw a spanner in the works. Normally tyres are made to react in a certain way Pirelli due to the way the restricted testing etc built a tyre that didn't react normally. So there's a bit more to it than just simple replicating what the other guy is doing.

If it was just a case of one driver Replicating the other Massa would just Replicate Alonso and Webber Vettel. Barring DNFs and accidents the cars would all cross the line Noah style. Of course that never happens.

As for the engineers going through the data. Of course they are going to. They don't collect mountains of the stuff for nothing. They go through the data all the time. In Canada they were using pretty much the same set up I reckon from reading fairy cakes loads of articles and all the interviews. Polar opposite results for the tyres. So the best time to look at it. When they can look and see what is causing the problem on one car they can fix it. That also gives them info on how to reduce the problem further on the other OR indeed give them info on what not to do in future races. Back in the days of testing teams would purposefully put what would be considered a disreputable set up on a car to see what happens. Because although it's wrong you still learn from it. No testing means they don't have the time to do it these days. Not only did doing that help JB it would have helped the designers, Race engineers and the guys doing the software for the Sim. Which obviously in turn would help Lewis.

Yes i see that would be a bit simplistic to think that Massa could drive as fast as Alonso just by copying his set up and mimicking his driving style because that would be somewhat alien to him, however i wonder if some driving styles are just not as adaptive to changes as others, drivers are always having to adapt to different cars and tyres. So the best drivers would be consistent from season to season whereas other drivers may yo-yo from season to season dependent on cars and tyres?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:49 am 
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Johnston wrote:
His problem according to Hembrey I think it was,was keeping both ends of the car in the window.

IIRC he could get the rears to temp but the fronts were too cold. When the fronts were brought up to temp the rears overheated.

It was Hembrey that said that JB had the biggest temp difference between axles of all the drivers.

I think Button once said that he a driving style that was quite different from all the other drivers he tends to be more gentle on the tyres then all the other drivers, it obviously didn't suit the tyres.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:52 am 
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pokerman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
FWIW...I think in many teams at the beginning of the season one side of the garage ventured into the unknown to try things to get a leg up on everyone, while the other side went with what they knew worked. In F1, especially with the crazy tire situation early on, you can't just be content to have a car that's inching ahead THIS weekend... you need to always be thinking and working long term. I think McLaren was using Jenson, most likely with his blessing, to try different things to be even better than what they already knew worked. I think Sebastian was doing the same thing. Sort of, "I'm not completely happy with what we have, even though its reasonably competitive, so we're going to go further outside of the box to find a greater advantage". The data collected in that process would be very useful to the designers compared to both sides using the same packages and ideas with just slightly varied setups. Unfortunately on-track incidents and operational failures muddy the data a bit, and make the whole process take longer. All a consequence of the limited testing...

This being true Button agreed because he'd already fallen out of WDC contention?

No, it was early on - everyone still had a chance.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:59 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
No, I don't think he lost his way. Go back and read the post in which I detail what I think happened with Jenson. Page 6.

I also never said McLaren didn't have the pace to win. I said that at all but maybe 3 rounds they had at least one car capable of winning, and that should have been enough to get them a title or two if they hadn't made operational mistakes, suffered failures, and made risky decisions. On faith and drivability, I absolutely believe Lewis had a car he could have won the championship in.

Fair enough i'm getting a bit tired now to take everything in, i'll have another read tomorrow

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:00 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
FWIW...I think in many teams at the beginning of the season one side of the garage ventured into the unknown to try things to get a leg up on everyone, while the other side went with what they knew worked. In F1, especially with the crazy tire situation early on, you can't just be content to have a car that's inching ahead THIS weekend... you need to always be thinking and working long term. I think McLaren was using Jenson, most likely with his blessing, to try different things to be even better than what they already knew worked. I think Sebastian was doing the same thing. Sort of, "I'm not completely happy with what we have, even though its reasonably competitive, so we're going to go further outside of the box to find a greater advantage". The data collected in that process would be very useful to the designers compared to both sides using the same packages and ideas with just slightly varied setups. Unfortunately on-track incidents and operational failures muddy the data a bit, and make the whole process take longer. All a consequence of the limited testing...

This being true Button agreed because he'd already fallen out of WDC contention?

No, it was early on - everyone still had a chance.

That would seem to be a strange gamble given that Button and McLaren were competitive at the start of the season

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:21 am 
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"I'm not completely happy with what we have, even though its reasonably competitive, so we're going to go further outside of the box to find a greater advantage". -> I think some drivers wanted to go above and beyond what they had in hand because of the unpredictability of the early part of the season. Try stuff now, reap the rewards later on.

Both McLaren and RBR had one driver running different parts on the car in that early part of the year, a few rounds in. Both of those guys were kind of out in lala land trying different things, and gathering info for their designers to use to shape later development. RBR didn't waste too much time with the experiment, and moved on to some new development parts for both drivers, and had decent results. McLaren spent a bit more time in lala land. And they both ended up with the two strongest cars in the end, so you could say the experiment paid off for both. The difference is RBR got out of that stage earlier, and didn't have the same unforced errors and failures that McLaren did.

Just my take on what went down in 2012, based on studying available analysis of the technical bits of both cars, and watching the timing screen more than the picture. Initially the idea was born out of what I think is a decent understanding of how Seb's mind works - as the season went on, and as I look back now, I'm more convinced than I was when it was happening - and while I was initially thinking "damn, what's up with JB?!" when he was struggling, the more I looked at it the more it seemed the same scenario as what I believed was happening at RBR.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:28 am 
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Haribo wrote:
Drivers take part at those post race debriefs so, I'm sure it was not the 1st Hamilton walked in, or took part, but obviously, he was surprised to see something there, wich he has called his little secrets
A race engineer & a driver have to trust each other, they usually have a very close relationship, and if Lewis " secrets" really were some kind of little private informations between him and his race engineers I can understand his surprise


Do you think drivers take part in every technical post race debrief? Do you think they just have one where the driver is at and then thats it move on? Or do you think there is more than one, some more technical than others

If he thinks he can have secrets between himself and his engineers then he is a fool. His engineers are employees. Do you honestly think they would risk their jobs keeping his secrets?


If Martin or Ron came asking do you think they would claim some sort of Patient Doctor confidentiality? and again with everything logged on to computer and both Race engineers going through one man. How does his RE keep the secrets from going up the food chain? Do you think they would be happy at a RE not logging data on the system or putting false data in it?

That would mean the designers would be building a car around false data. Also IF they did keep secrets. Isn't that a bit foolish? After all here he is changing his style to suit when if he told the team his secrets the designers could possible put the necessary qualities into the car allowing him to drive more naturally and possibly quicker.

He would be keeping info from the team that could be preventing the team from building a better car.


But basically the whole way it is put by hammo fans (Inc Spa) makes it look like this

Lewis is thick.
Not a team player.
Doesn't want to help the team develop the car.

If it's all true. How do you think Brawn would react to Lewis keeping secrets? Do you think his new RE will keep secrets? If he is willing to keep secrets how will that help in developing the car?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:15 pm 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Haha the tricky Pirellis "burnt" just faster when they were too cold. Both had the same effect, too cold & too hot tyres, both wore out too fast. Only the right temperature made them last

Thats an inaccurate characterization actually. There are temps at which a compound will work and temps where it won't, and thats regardless of wear. When you talk of "wear" there are different types - damage (blistering for example), and usage (you physically wear past the useful part of the tire's surface). Tires don't automatically wear away faster when they are hot. Don't confuse wear with temperature, they are their own independent issues.

The wrong temperature causes heavier degeneration, regardless if the temperatures have been too high, or too low, the effect was the same.
Too cold tyres, got a surface like glass after few ( 1 or 2 are enough therefore) laps, once those surface is " frozen" the effect can't be made reverse. The car starts to slide around on those tyres, wich leads to extensive degeneration.
Same effect when the tyres overheat , and the surface got burned.
This was explained from Nico Rosberg, when he spoke about the problems Merc had with the tyres, and their high degeneration they suffered.
JB suffered the same problems , therfore they did not realise if the tyres had been too hot or too cold for quite some time because the effect was the same, but the right solution for either problem ( overheated, or underheated)were quite different.


F1 cars have multi channel infrared sensors right at each wheel measuring temps every second. they know if it is under or overheated

They did not at McLaren. temperature measuring at the wheels is only at tests, at races the instruments to do it would hamper them. They messure the exhaust temeratutes, engine, breaks, but not the surfache of the wheels.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:23 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
They did not at McLaren. temperature measuring at the wheels is only at tests, at races the instruments to do it would hamper them. They messure the exhaust temeratutes, engine, breaks, but not the surfache of the wheels.



How would it hamper them?

Even FI were telling their drivers over the radio about tyre temps. You saying FI have something on their car McLaren doesn't?


How would Hembrey know that Buttons temps had the widest split of all drivers between the axles if they have no way of measuring it?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:28 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Drivers take part at those post race debriefs so, I'm sure it was not the 1st Hamilton walked in, or took part, but obviously, he was surprised to see something there, wich he has called his little secrets
A race engineer & a driver have to trust each other, they usually have a very close relationship, and if Lewis " secrets" really were some kind of little private informations between him and his race engineers I can understand his surprise


Do you think drivers take part in every technical post race debrief? Do you think they just have one where the driver is at and then thats it move on? Or do you think there is more than one, some more technical than others

If he thinks he can have secrets between himself and his engineers then he is a fool. His engineers are employees. Do you honestly think they would risk their jobs keeping his secrets?


If Martin or Ron came asking do you think they would claim some sort of Patient Doctor confidentiality? and again with everything logged on to computer and both Race engineers going through one man. How does his RE keep the secrets from going up the food chain? Do you think they would be happy at a RE not logging data on the system or putting false data in it?

That would mean the designers would be building a car around false data. Also IF they did keep secrets. Isn't that a bit foolish? After all here he is changing his style to suit when if he told the team his secrets the designers could possible put the necessary qualities into the car allowing him to drive more naturally and possibly quicker.

He would be keeping info from the team that could be preventing the team from building a better car.


But basically the whole way it is put by hammo fans (Inc Spa) makes it look like this

Lewis is thick.
Not a team player.
Doesn't want to help the team develop the car.

If it's all true. How do you think Brawn would react to Lewis keeping secrets? Do you think his new RE will keep secrets? If he is willing to keep secrets how will that help in developing the car?

First you say Hamilton was the FIRST time at such a debrief wich is BS
Now you write you are sure it was not his first, you should once decide what you write, and not just turn it around anytime .
This is not about technical secrets, or data, it's just about how a driver brakes, drives, takes corners etc, wich each driver does different. Little changes at the tyre pressure, etc. nothing top secret, but personal things each driver works out with his team.
Read the article Jock Clear wrote recently there he describes a little bit how the diff. driver teams try to get little advantages over the other side. There is nothing aboout holding back data, it's just normal competiotion, like it's everywhere in every team, where the tem mates race against each other.
do you think Buttons engineers gave Hamiltons side the data at spa about the new wing?
Do you think they share any little bit of info?

Your assumption about Hamilton abnd his fans is your view wich has neither something to do with him or his fans.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:33 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
They did not at McLaren. temperature measuring at the wheels is only at tests, at races the instruments to do it would hamper them. They messure the exhaust temeratutes, engine, breaks, but not the surfache of the wheels.



How would it hamper them?

Even FI were telling their drivers over the radio about tyre temps. You saying FI have something on their car McLaren doesn't?


How would Hembrey know that Buttons temps had the widest split of all drivers between the axles if they have no way of measuring it?

Why was mcLaren about 5 races completely in the dark about button had different tyre temperatures at the front and at the rear?
Why did they think for several races, Button overheats they tyres , when in reality they had been too cold?
Why did they not realise at Canada the tyres temperatures where wrong?
Why did they not see Hamilton , got it right, and heated up the tyres correct?
Why did they need therefore all engineers and all data to see it, about the half of the season?

If they had tyre temperature sensors on their cars, it would have needed a few laps to compare Lewis tyre temps with Jensoons to find it out.
Or are McLarens engineers so inapt, they oversaw it at several races, qualys ?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:50 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
"I'm not completely happy with what we have, even though its reasonably competitive, so we're going to go further outside of the box to find a greater advantage". -> I think some drivers wanted to go above and beyond what they had in hand because of the unpredictability of the early part of the season. Try stuff now, reap the rewards later on.

Both McLaren and RBR had one driver running different parts on the car in that early part of the year, a few rounds in. Both of those guys were kind of out in lala land trying different things, and gathering info for their designers to use to shape later development. RBR didn't waste too much time with the experiment, and moved on to some new development parts for both drivers, and had decent results. McLaren spent a bit more time in lala land. And they both ended up with the two strongest cars in the end, so you could say the experiment paid off for both. The difference is RBR got out of that stage earlier, and didn't have the same unforced errors and failures that McLaren did.

Just my take on what went down in 2012, based on studying available analysis of the technical bits of both cars, and watching the timing screen more than the picture. Initially the idea was born out of what I think is a decent understanding of how Seb's mind works - as the season went on, and as I look back now, I'm more convinced than I was when it was happening - and while I was initially thinking "damn, what's up with JB?!" when he was struggling, the more I looked at it the more it seemed the same scenario as what I believed was happening at RBR.

How do you know they run different parts on the car & therefore came the difference?
At McL it was only at Australia(FW) & Spa(RW) where they run diff. parts in the race & qualy
The difference at the performance came from the drivers & their different styles
Webber & Hamilton can live much bettter with a twisty, less balanced car with less rear downforce than Vettel & Button,
It was the ban from the hot off throttle blowing , and the regulation of the engine mappings, wich hurt Button & Vettel, as both need a very stable car& back end.
Vettel & Button got better as the Coanda exhaust was put onto RBR & McLaren, where they got back the rear stability & down force they lost with the ban of the blown diffussors.
It also helped to heat up the tyres correctly.

This lala land theory belongs to Lalalland!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
First you say Hamilton was the FIRST time at such a debrief wich is BS
Now you write you are sure it was not his first, you should once decide what you write, and not just turn it around anytime .
This is not about technical secrets, or data, it's just about how a driver brakes, drives, takes corners etc, wich each driver does different. Little changes at the tyre pressure, etc. nothing top secret, but personal things each driver works out with his team.
Read the article Jock Clear wrote recently there he describes a little bit how the diff. driver teams try to get little advantages over the other side. There is nothing aboout holding back data, it's just normal competiotion, like it's everywhere in every team, where the tem mates race against each other.
do you think Buttons engineers gave Hamiltons side the data at spa about the new wing?
Do you think they share any little bit of info?

Your assumption about Hamilton abnd his fans is your view wich has neither something to do with him or his fans.



We all know Lewis has been to a post race debrief. That is part of the course.

However do we know if he gets invited to every technical one?

Do you think he goes to every meeting between Race engineers and designers? Is he there everytime the boffins sit down to analyse data?

If he was that would mean he would need to be at the factory practically full time. which we know isn't the case. We only have Lewis' word on it that this wasn't normal because he walked in on it and it surprised him. For all we know, because we are not party to all of McLarens inner workings. That this was a bog standard meeting he isn't normally a part off. The team doesn't revolve around Lewis or any other driver. They are not part of every meeting. Like any business there are loads of meetings others aren't invited too. In this when a driver was talking to other teams do you think they would invite him to tech meetings?

In this day and age of Telemetry and everything computer logged. How does a driver and His RE keep anything secret. Everytime a switch is turned in the McLaren it's logged. Every change made to the car is logged. Every time a diff setting is adjusted it's logged. Something like 500 parameters are logged.

As for Spa and handing over every bit of data. Can you tell me how they are supposed to hold info back from the team? How do they hide a setting change or telemetry?

Even with drivers in the past that had it in their contracts that set ups wouldn't be shared, the teams still had all that data. Withholding info from the team would be shooting themselves in the foot. How are the designers meant to improve the car if he isn't giving all the feedback? If they are somehow giving false data that is then giving the designers false info on which to build on. How would that help anyone? Would that not actually hinder himself. They would be building stuff based on false info, making them go in the wrong direction. If say Lewis secret was an extra 2deg of toe in. If the RE doesn't note that down then they would be giving false info to the Designers sending them down the wrong path.

And I haven't made any assumptions about Hamilton and his fans. I have merely pointed out that if you took what his fans say as gospel it makes Lewis look very stupid.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Thing is when you look at the quote in the PF1 site

Quote:
But the most difficult part for us was before the summer break when we just didn't have the pace


when he said "Us" who is "Us"? who is "We"

McLaren as a whole or his side of the garage?

If you look he also said

Quote:
"We tried new things because I struggled to get tyre temperature more than most, and it didn't work, it just destroyed the tyres around Monaco and Canada time,"


Now Lewis wasn't trying new things. So does he Mean "We" as in just his side?

and can any one argue that the tyres didn't slow the pace of his car?

whenever a driver gives a debrief and uses the "we" phrase,i assume it means his side of the garage because that's the people who are actually dealing with the car on the track.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:02 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
They did not at McLaren. temperature measuring at the wheels is only at tests, at races the instruments to do it would hamper them. They messure the exhaust temeratutes, engine, breaks, but not the surfache of the wheels.



How would it hamper them?

Even FI were telling their drivers over the radio about tyre temps. You saying FI have something on their car McLaren doesn't?


How would Hembrey know that Buttons temps had the widest split of all drivers between the axles if they have no way of measuring it?

Why was mcLaren about 5 races completely in the dark about button had different tyre temperatures at the front and at the rear?
Why did they think for several races, Button overheats they tyres , when in reality they had been too cold?
Why did they not realise at Canada the tyres temperatures where wrong?
Why did they not see Hamilton , got it right, and heated up the tyres correct?
Why did they need therefore all engineers and all data to see it, about the half of the season?

If they had tyre temperature sensors on their cars, it would have needed a few laps to compare Lewis tyre temps with Jensoons to find it out.
Or are McLarens engineers so inapt, they oversaw it at several races, qualys ?


They knew they had the problem, they couldn't fix it. They didn't understand it. They were trying all the traditional methods and nothing was working. As has been said umpteen times the tyres weren't behaving in the traditional manner.

In Canada due to lack of running they didn't know they had a problem until it was in the race. In which case they could do nowt. How do you think they knew which tyre was wearing and when he had to pit?

They knew Hamilton was getting it right hence why they were comparing the data to see WHY he was getting it right.

Why didn't they do it sooner? Because Canada was the first time they were basically on the same set up. Before that it would have been comparing apples to oranges. with 500 parameters and most of them being different, how do you narrow it down to the cause?

If they had no Sensors in the car then how after Canada could the analyse the data see what the differences were? How would they be able to compare Lewis' temps to JBs.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:03 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
"I'm not completely happy with what we have, even though its reasonably competitive, so we're going to go further outside of the box to find a greater advantage". -> I think some drivers wanted to go above and beyond what they had in hand because of the unpredictability of the early part of the season. Try stuff now, reap the rewards later on.

Both McLaren and RBR had one driver running different parts on the car in that early part of the year, a few rounds in. Both of those guys were kind of out in lala land trying different things, and gathering info for their designers to use to shape later development. RBR didn't waste too much time with the experiment, and moved on to some new development parts for both drivers, and had decent results. McLaren spent a bit more time in lala land. And they both ended up with the two strongest cars in the end, so you could say the experiment paid off for both. The difference is RBR got out of that stage earlier, and didn't have the same unforced errors and failures that McLaren did.

Just my take on what went down in 2012, based on studying available analysis of the technical bits of both cars, and watching the timing screen more than the picture. Initially the idea was born out of what I think is a decent understanding of how Seb's mind works - as the season went on, and as I look back now, I'm more convinced than I was when it was happening - and while I was initially thinking "damn, what's up with JB?!" when he was struggling, the more I looked at it the more it seemed the same scenario as what I believed was happening at RBR.

With Button though do you consider this happened after the high nose update?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:13 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
First you say Hamilton was the FIRST time at such a debrief wich is BS
Now you write you are sure it was not his first, you should once decide what you write, and not just turn it around anytime .
This is not about technical secrets, or data, it's just about how a driver brakes, drives, takes corners etc, wich each driver does different. Little changes at the tyre pressure, etc. nothing top secret, but personal things each driver works out with his team.
Read the article Jock Clear wrote recently there he describes a little bit how the diff. driver teams try to get little advantages over the other side. There is nothing aboout holding back data, it's just normal competiotion, like it's everywhere in every team, where the tem mates race against each other.
do you think Buttons engineers gave Hamiltons side the data at spa about the new wing?
Do you think they share any little bit of info?

Your assumption about Hamilton abnd his fans is your view wich has neither something to do with him or his fans.



We all know Lewis has been to a post race debrief. That is part of the course.

However do we know if he gets invited to every technical one?

Do you think he goes to every meeting between Race engineers and designers? Is he there everytime the boffins sit down to analyse data?

If he was that would mean he would need to be at the factory practically full time. which we know isn't the case. We only have Lewis' word on it that this wasn't normal because he walked in on it and it surprised him. For all we know, because we are not party to all of McLarens inner workings. That this was a bog standard meeting he isn't normally a part off. The team doesn't revolve around Lewis or any other driver. They are not part of every meeting. Like any business there are loads of meetings others aren't invited too. In this when a driver was talking to other teams do you think they would invite him to tech meetings?

In this day and age of Telemetry and everything computer logged. How does a driver and His RE keep anything secret. Everytime a switch is turned in the McLaren it's logged. Every change made to the car is logged. Every time a diff setting is adjusted it's logged. Something like 500 parameters are logged.

As for Spa and handing over every bit of data. Can you tell me how they are supposed to hold info back from the team? How do they hide a setting change or telemetry?

Even with drivers in the past that had it in their contracts that set ups wouldn't be shared, the teams still had all that data. Withholding info from the team would be shooting themselves in the foot. How are the designers meant to improve the car if he isn't giving all the feedback? If they are somehow giving false data that is then giving the designers false info on which to build on. How would that help anyone? Would that not actually hinder himself. They would be building stuff based on false info, making them go in the wrong direction. If say Lewis secret was an extra 2deg of toe in. If the RE doesn't note that down then they would be giving false info to the Designers sending them down the wrong path.

And I haven't made any assumptions about Hamilton and his fans. I have merely pointed out that if you took what his fans say as gospel it makes Lewis look very stupid.

Why do write than it was LH first tech debriefing , when youself write now it was not
You are contradicting yourself!

You think every bit of the conversation between a race engineer a driver and his team is logged?
If a driver decides to drive the outlap slower of faster than before ( wich makes a huge difference) or brake sooner or later at corner xy, tries a new entry at turn X, but a different at turn Y?
They can see it afterwards if they analyse the data, but, there is no need to write it down what a driver speaks in private with his engineer.
If the team does not analyse the data, the driver & the enginer won't trumpet it around
IMo this is meant with the little secrets The data is there for analysing , but the driver won't tell it to the other side of the greage .If they don#t think its neccessarry to look at it, fail to search for it their problem.
There have been some FP3s this year, where Hamilton was not too happy with the car or his lap times,and JB was faster than him at the FPs, but hHamilton said, he knows what changes must be made overnight at the car ,for qualy, and he is confident they pay off than
And afterwards he got pole.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:26 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Why do write than it was LH first tech debriefing , when youself write now it was not
You are contradicting yourself!

You think every bit of the conversation between a race engineer a driver and his team is logged?
If a driver decides to drive the outlap slower of faster than before ( wich makes a huge difference) or brake sooner or later at corner xy, tries a new entry at turn X, but a different at turn Y?
They can see it afterwards if they analyse the data, but, there is no need to write it down what a driver speaks in private with his engineer.
If the team does not analyse the data, the driver & the enginer won't trumpet it around
IMo this is meant with the little secrets The data is there for analysing , but the driver won't tell it to the other side of the greage .If they don#t think its neccessarry to look at it, fail to search for it their problem.
There have been some FP3s this year, where Hamilton was not too happy with the car or his lap times,and JB was faster than him at the FPs, but hHamilton said, he knows what changes must be made overnight at the car ,for qualy, and he is confident they pay off than
And afterwards he got pole.


Because I am talking about 2 different types of meetings. Once again Drivers are not invited to every meeting in Woking.

Edit to add. Look at it this way, after Singapore Lewis went on Holiday. How likely is it there were no tech meetings looking at the weekends data because Lewis was sitting on a Sun Lounger sipping the F1 drivers version of Pina Colada beside the pool?

Not every bit of conversation is logged but every setting is. Do you think they are stupid enough to not realise Driver A is driving slower out laps? Or his steering angles are different? Anyone with common sense knows that the majority of things were different between the two drivers because of their differing driving styles. One had more affect on the tyres than the other, how elsedo you suggest they understand the tyres better without comparing the datalogging?
When it was obvious it was more than set up. They looked a the data. Once again where is the problem? All his "Secrets" were there in black and white.

As for knowing what changes needed to be made. How do you know he didn't know because they looked at JBs car?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:10 pm 
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"How do you know they run different parts on the car & therefore came the difference?" How do you know they didn't? Neither of us can know for sure because we don't work for the team, but I at least came up with some evidence for why I believe they were. Your reason is "JB can't adapt", even though there has never been such a delta between him and his teammate.

I give up having conversations about anything technical with someone who doesn't believe the engineers can see changes in tire temp in-race.

And yes, all session conversation between driver and RE is usually recorded. That's why sometimes when they're standing right next to each other in the garage they will be plugged in and speaking over the radio so that the people back at HQ can hear what they're saying, and so that it is recorded.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
They did not at McLaren. temperature measuring at the wheels is only at tests, at races the instruments to do it would hamper them. They messure the exhaust temeratutes, engine, breaks, but not the surfache of the wheels.


I don't believe that one bit for the following:
during the race the engineers keep telling both Lewis and Jenson to do something to get heat in the tyres, if they didn't know theyw ere cold they wouldn't say that.
i know teams on about 1-5% of F1 team's budget who use these sensors at each wheel as they know how important it is, F1 in 2 tyre affected seasons don't use them? B.S. ( i am sure Ashley can back em up on this as she must have used them or saw teams use them)
at Merc MSC engineers where telling him his exact temperatures every 15 min or so and every team does the same but not as detailed as MSC (i asked @f1pitradio). Mclaren must be using them.

I think this thread is going nowhere.

7 pages in and no one is convinced about the other.

I'll just add one nail in the coffin then i am out, Jenson has raced during V10, slicks, grooved, V8, tyre war eras. and has shown pace in every single era (car dependent ofcourse). this season he has had 3 wins, several podiums and had 3-4 races where he was nowhere, not slow, nowhere.
so are you saying that the driver who raced through all these eras, proved his merit to be in F1 (for team owners) along the years, a WDC and the only driver who managed to beat Hamilton over a season so far (and arguably over 3 years) can't adapt to tyres or is slow?


I am sorry but history says otherwise, and his 3 wins this season say otherwise.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:58 pm 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Haribo wrote:

i know teams on about 1-5% of F1 team's budget who use these sensors at each wheel as they know how important it is, F1 in 2 tyre affected seasons don't use them? B.S. ( i am sure Ashley can back em up on this as she must have used them or saw teams use them)

Yes. And I've worked in series where its illegal to get real time tire temp from the car - but you can still read real time tire pressure, and the relationship between temperature and pressure is measurable, so if you know the pressures you know what's happening with the temps. Regardless, as you said, you need only look at Michael's team radio to know the teams have real time tire temp. I went to Brian's twitter page earlier today to grab one of them for proof as its the very first thing I thought of, but I got tired of infinite scrolling.


Also, just to prove McLaren isn't the oddball team that doesn't have the same capabilities as the rest, why would they have their fancy pit-stop adjustable brake venting flap mechanism to help heat or cool the tires if they didn't know which they needed?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:48 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe when looking at Hamilton's data it was more to do with his driving style and how he was using the tyres rather than the set up itself


Nope, that is called telemtry

I miss your point


Jenson's problem was not that he needed to drive like Lewis. and if that were the case then he and his engineer's wouldn't have looked at Lewis' data but would have looked at his Telemetry to "teach" Jenson how to drive. now i don't think anyone thinks that is the case. Data is how the car behaves and is set up telemtry is how the driver behaves and controls the car.

Here is my take on the story; Jenson was doing fine till around Bahrian (won Australia, 2nd China, Malasyia was ahead of Lewis till his error with Karthikeyan and even Bahrain was ahead till he got a puncture, exhaust and diff failure). anyhow, after that point Mclaren introduced a major upgrade after Mugello (including a higher nose as well as other aero fiddles) Jenson and his engineers struggled to adapt to that and get heat in the tyres, or maybe they thought they can get more of it, who knows.

They changed a few things with the aero, mechanical balance as well as suspension geometry which they thought would make them faster. It didn't. the effect was the tyres were overheated and lasted nearly half their expected time and thus Jenson had to go very slow or have extra pitstops.
Got to Monaco changed things a bit, things got a bit better but Jenson couldn't get out of Q2, made a bad start and this being Monaco and his car not being handicapped he couldn't pass Kovalinen even though he was faster and strategy didn't help either.
Canada was the absolute shocker, Jenson's car had a problem and he couldn't even drive it properly, in practice he did many out and in laps to test the car is working but clearly something was wrong with his gearbox IRC. the team decided that since he already had problems with the suspension they would use the opportunity to test out a new rear suspension which they thought would make things better. the car's rear end got a makeover by P3 and Jenson was out, did a few edits to setup with the limited time available and he and the team went nearly blind to Qualy and the race which was disastrous for the 2011 winner. even getting lapped by Lewis, and whatever your opinion is i doubt people really think that Lewis can lap Jenson that easily and the gap between their race pace in clear air has never been more than a couple of tenths either way.

By Valencia the team decided to go back to a base which they knew worker, and that would be their last major Upgrade after Mugello and since Jenson was struggling at that point they had to go with Lewis' setup given Jenson' and Lewis' setups are normally within 5% from each other (the team stated several times they set the car up a bit similar). they tuned to that base and Jenson got to test it out through practice, unfortunately though at this point Mclaren were the slowest of the front bunch, even Lewis who had gotten used to that upgrade swiftly struggled in Valencia and Britian as did Jenson but he was up to speed then.

I don't believe it was Jenson's driving that caused him troubles, he has been teammates with Lewis for 3 years and never has he been so slow in comparison, his car had something wrong done on it setup wise, and i also believe (from experience) that setup is done by the engineers and not the driver. The driver tells how he would like the car to react and the engineers find the ways and that is why i agree that Jenson was not undone by his driving this year but more with how the team designed, modified and setup the car. the car was designed at its limits and optimally interconnected such that slight changes affected many parameters, this produced a sensitive, unreliable but very fast car when set up perfectly, such a car damaged their drivers chances; where one driver had the car always break down (unreliable) and the other lacked pace at 3-4 races in a very close season (sensitive), add that to some minor errors (ARB not fixed properly, throttle pedal stuck, underfuelling) and some operational errors (pitstops and strategy)

I just think JB and his engineers have outsmarted themselfes, and tried to get JB faster as LH, wich they thought they were, after the first races, but LH was hampered by some operational errors, wich put JB ahead of him ( not JB pace)
After they outsmarted themselfes they failed to see how they got it wrong, were to proud to look at Hamiltons side of the gerage, until McLaren pulled the plug & told Buttons side of the gerage to use Hamiltons set up as base , and learn from him about the tyres.


The truth is Jenson admits he and his side of the garage were totally lost with set up and had to use Lewis's set up and data to get him back on track .

This was stated by Jenson himself, Mclaren, Lewis , Whitmarsh on Sky, BBC post races pre races , numerous trade online articles , newspaper interviews etc . So quite why we have pages and pages on this thread denying that now is beyond me .

My question is do any of you seriously believe that Mclaren lacked pace in 2012 , I can't even say that had Lewis not shown us what Mclaren was capable of we would be none the wiser, because Jenson had some good races last season where he managed to show the true pace of the car .

I can only assume he is now embarrassed about those races , a driver of his calibre shouldn't go awol for that long , they all have the bad or inexplicably odd race but not like that and with the pressure now on him next year he's over thinking the situation .
He does need to be careful though because if as he says he's working hard to pull Mclaren around him attacking the one thing they had right to make himself look better is not the way to go about it .


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:04 pm 
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Qiwater wrote:

The truth is Jenson admits he and his side of the garage were totally lost with set up and had to use Lewis's set up and data to get him back on track .

This was stated by Jenson himself, Mclaren, Lewis , Whitmarsh on Sky, BBC post races pre races , numerous trade online articles , newspaper interviews etc . So quite why we have pages and pages on this thread denying that now is beyond me .

My question is do any of you seriously believe that Mclaren lacked pace in 2012 , I can't even say that had Lewis not shown us what Mclaren was capable of we would be none the wiser, because Jenson had some good races last season where he managed to show the true pace of the car .

I can only assume he is now embarrassed about those races , a driver of his calibre shouldn't go awol for that long , they all have the bad or inexplicably odd race but not like that and with the pressure now on him next year he's over thinking the situation .
He does need to be careful though because if as he says he's working hard to pull Mclaren around him attacking the one thing they had right to make himself look better is not the way to go about it .


who is denying it?

would you not say that chocolate fudge cake up mid Season caused a "Lack of Pace" for JB?

As for going AWOL a man can only use the tools he is given.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:46 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Qiwater wrote:

The truth is Jenson admits he and his side of the garage were totally lost with set up and had to use Lewis's set up and data to get him back on track .

This was stated by Jenson himself, Mclaren, Lewis , Whitmarsh on Sky, BBC post races pre races , numerous trade online articles , newspaper interviews etc . So quite why we have pages and pages on this thread denying that now is beyond me .

My question is do any of you seriously believe that Mclaren lacked pace in 2012 , I can't even say that had Lewis not shown us what Mclaren was capable of we would be none the wiser, because Jenson had some good races last season where he managed to show the true pace of the car .

I can only assume he is now embarrassed about those races , a driver of his calibre shouldn't go awol for that long , they all have the bad or inexplicably odd race but not like that and with the pressure now on him next year he's over thinking the situation .
He does need to be careful though because if as he says he's working hard to pull Mclaren around him attacking the one thing they had right to make himself look better is not the way to go about it .


who is denying it?

would you not say that chocolate fudge cake up mid Season caused a "Lack of Pace" for JB?

As for going AWOL a man can only use the tools he is given.


No because I don't like swearing 👀

But I do believe that may to July Jenson was nothing to do with the outright pace of Mclaren as evidenced by the other Mclaren


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:49 pm 
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Qiwater wrote:
No because I don't like swearing 👀

But I do believe that may to July Jenson was nothing to do with the outright pace of Mclaren as evidenced by the other Mclaren



I don't believe he ever said it was.

The quote in the op is

Quote:
The reason why we were not fighting for the title isn't just the reliability issues, the pace in that period of time wasn't good enough compared to our competitors."


As far as JB is concerned is that fact or fiction?

Did JB lack pace in that period?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:23 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Qiwater wrote:
No because I don't like swearing 👀

But I do believe that may to July Jenson was nothing to do with the outright pace of Mclaren as evidenced by the other Mclaren



I don't believe he ever said it was.

The quote in the op is

Quote:
The reason why we were not fighting for the title isn't just the reliability issues, the pace in that period of time wasn't good enough compared to our competitors."


As far as JB is concerned is that fact or fiction?

Did JB lack pace in that period?


Yes JB lacked pace not Mclaren there is no way Mclaren dropped to lower midfield and back marker pace he simply struggled and with hindsight should have sided with Lewis and gone to the in season testing to better understand the tyres I believe if he had done so he may not have struggled so badly


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:37 pm 
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Qiwater wrote:

Yes JB lacked pace not Mclaren there is no way Mclaren dropped to lower midfield and back marker pace he simply struggled and with hindsight should have sided with Lewis and gone to the in season testing to better understand the tyres I believe if he had done so he may not have struggled so badly



Now why did JB lack pace? Was it because of himself or because McLaren couldn't get the tyres to work on his car. If the tyres aren't working and the tyres ARE just one component of the car was it him or was it his car that lacked pace? Note His car not including Lewis'

As for the in season testing. If you actually recall up to that point the Macca hadn't been too bad. It was competitive in 3 of the 4 races A win a Second and he ended up back in the pack due to hitting Narain and Lewis was 3rd. They also had other things to test. If you recall too they also used that test for a lot of data collection which would have yielded benefits beyond simply testing tyres around a track that was like no other track in F1. In other words the info gained by just testing tyres couldn't be guaranteed to give accurate results. As we seen until the teams gotto grips with the tyres the results were all very track specific. No team got a handle on the tyres by testing at Mugello. Although sitting here Hindsight is always 20/20.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:57 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Everyone looks at everyone else's data within a team, all the time. Its standard. That's how they figure out what to do with the cars short and long term. Why do you think they have a million engineers collecting and analyzing the stuff? Its a TEAM effort. I don't understand where this "one had to use the other's info to figure out what to do" thing comes from - they all look at each other's info constantly, and everyone learns something from it one way or the other. Standard operating procedure.

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Now, only talk DOWN the table fellas, not ACROSS it, lest the dark side learn our data.

IMO not every little bit is shared the drivers & their engineers try to keep some little secrets for themselfes, to have a little advantage over the other side of the greage.
Hamilton mentioned it, when he said he was surprised, to see ALL engineers ( his engineers, too) sit around the table, with all of his data, to the bits, all his tiny little secrets everything he worked out with his engineers.

I can't help but feel that whatever Lewis supposedly said about his setup been shared across the garage it has since been blown out of proportion on the Internetz, give this interview a watch which was filmed at the start of the 2011 season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOCJHl2Th1o#t=1m14s

Considering everything Lewis said in response to EJ's question I have trouble understanding how he could be so indignant about something which has been happening both ways for years already, it makes no sense?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:37 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Qiwater wrote:

Yes JB lacked pace not Mclaren there is no way Mclaren dropped to lower midfield and back marker pace he simply struggled and with hindsight should have sided with Lewis and gone to the in season testing to better understand the tyres I believe if he had done so he may not have struggled so badly



Now why did JB lack pace? Was it because of himself or because McLaren couldn't get the tyres to work on his car. If the tyres aren't working and the tyres ARE just one component of the car was it him or was it his car that lacked pace? Note His car not including Lewis'

As for the in season testing. If you actually recall up to that point the Macca hadn't been too bad. It was competitive in 3 of the 4 races A win a Second and he ended up back in the pack due to hitting Narain and Lewis was 3rd. They also had other things to test. If you recall too they also used that test for a lot of data collection which would have yielded benefits beyond simply testing tyres around a track that was like no other track in F1. In other words the info gained by just testing tyres couldn't be guaranteed to give accurate results. As we seen until the teams gotto grips with the tyres the results were all very track specific. No team got a handle on the tyres by testing at Mugello. Although sitting here Hindsight is always 20/20.


During the season he said it was due to set up now he says its because the car lacked pace .
Best way to warm tyres up is to drive fast but if Jenson was in tyre preserving mode in the hope of doing less stops ( plan A plan B ) that may have worked before but not as close as the cars were this year and not the way the tyres worked this year the faster drivers did better as did those who exited corners Lewis / Alonso style . Jensen simply had to alter his driving style to cope with the tyres on certain tracks .
In fact the only time I saw the Mclaren's struggle was in the wet this season


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:46 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
"How do you know they run different parts on the car & therefore came the difference?" How do you know they didn't? Neither of us can know for sure because we don't work for the team, but I at least came up with some evidence for why I believe they were. Your reason is "JB can't adapt", even though there has never been such a delta between him and his teammate.

I give up having conversations about anything technical with someone who doesn't believe the engineers can see changes in tire temp in-race.

And yes, all session conversation between driver and RE is usually recorded. That's why sometimes when they're standing right next to each other in the garage they will be plugged in and speaking over the radio so that the people back at HQ can hear what they're saying, and so that it is recorded.

If thee had been different parts run on the car wich had made a difference , than it would have been realised, analysed, discussed told from the drivers the team etc. Something like this does not get unrecognised if it would make such a performance difference. The reason was confirmed from JB a wrong set up route and his inabillity to get the tyres to work. He himself said it, and also said he had to adjust his driving style therefore.

Why did McLaren not see for several races, JBs tyres were too hot insted, to cold?
Do you really think they saw it and did nothing?

What about converstaions between sessions? I saw them standing in the gerage discussing with each other without headphones etc

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