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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:57 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
GoOnJenson wrote:
Pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least once this year too.

Why should he?



Well remember that wing he couldn't get to work at spa.

Do you think the team didn't use Jens info to get it to work in Monza?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:19 pm 
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Its rare for teammates to use the exact same setup, because they all have little preferences. Copying a setup entirely is usually a last straw problem solving tactic. So I doubt Lewis drove a 100% JB car this year. Data from both cars is always used to develop and maximize parts, so they're always using something that can be attributed to the other guy.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
GoOnJenson wrote:
Pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least once this year too.

Why should he?



Well remember that wing he couldn't get to work at spa.

Do you think the team didn't use Jens info to get it to work in Monza?

No. Because they had a Monza specific package at Monza, wich needs a complete different set up compared to Spa.
Spa set up from JB would be useless, for Lewis at Monza.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:15 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
No. Because they had a Monza specific package at Monza, wich needs a complete different set up compared to Spa.
Spa set up from JB would be useless, for Lewis at Monza.



Really.

'Cause guess what package Lewis ran at Monza?

The same one Jens used at Spa.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
No. Because they had a Monza specific package at Monza, wich needs a complete different set up compared to Spa.
Spa set up from JB would be useless, for Lewis at Monza.



Really.

'Cause guess what package Lewis ran at Monza?

The same one Jens used at Spa.

I very much doubt it would be exactly the same as the circuits are different

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:48 pm 
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I don't know why I just spent 5 minutes studying photos when this is available :lol:

http://somersf1.blogspot.com/2012/09/mc ... monza.html

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:59 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
I don't know why I just spent 5 minutes studying photos when this is available :lol:

http://somersf1.blogspot.com/2012/09/mc ... monza.html

They used the same rear wing but would the set ups be exactly the same for both circuits?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
No. Because they had a Monza specific package at Monza, wich needs a complete different set up compared to Spa.
Spa set up from JB would be useless, for Lewis at Monza.



Really.

'Cause guess what package Lewis ran at Monza?

The same one Jens used at Spa.

I very much doubt it would be exactly the same as the circuits are different



Then why would they have looked at Lewis' Previous data for Jens?

The Circuits are different .


and I never said they would have used the 100% same set up. Just that they likely used JBs Data from Spa. Think logically. would you go into FP1 or work on the Sim with a clean sheet of paper and start from scratch re-learning what has already been learnt. Or would you start with a proven working set up and tune it to suit?

Which one do you think would be a better more efficient use of time and resources? Especially considering both are Low Downforce high speed circuits.

If you were in charge what would you do?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:14 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
GoOnJenson wrote:
Pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least once this year too.

Why should he?

Because even Lewis cannot find the right setup all the time.

Edit

Or get a bit lost with setup.

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Last edited by dave_the_fish on Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:22 pm 
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The lack of in-season testing increases the dependency of both sides of the garage on data acquired at previous race meetings - if you have a log of the behavior change of one element of the car through different configurations you use it, regardless of which driver was behind the wheel when it was gathered. Further, the engineers would know things like customary differences in performance from driver to driver, and circuit to circuit. Think of how the teams work year to year. When its time to start developing an upgrade for any circuit, or to begin working on a weekend package via simulations, they look at data from both cars acquired in years past as a starting point...and sometimes one or both of their current cars are driven by someone who was with another team in those prior years.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
No. Because they had a Monza specific package at Monza, wich needs a complete different set up compared to Spa.
Spa set up from JB would be useless, for Lewis at Monza.



Really.

'Cause guess what package Lewis ran at Monza?

The same one Jens used at Spa.

I very much doubt it would be exactly the same as the circuits are different



Then why would they have looked at Lewis' Previous data for Jens?

The Circuits are different .


and I never said they would have used the 100% same set up. Just that they likely used JBs Data from Spa. Think logically. would you go into FP1 or work on the Sim with a clean sheet of paper and start from scratch re-learning what has already been learnt. Or would you start with a proven working set up and tune it to suit?

Which one do you think would be a better more efficient use of time and resources? Especially considering both are Low Downforce high speed circuits.

If you were in charge what would you do?

I believe when looking at Hamilton's data it was more to do with his driving style and how he was using the tyres rather than the set up itself

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I believe when looking at Hamilton's data it was more to do with his driving style and how he was using the tyres rather than the set up itself



Well isn't that using info the same way.

In one hand Lewis worked out how to drive the tyres in the other Jens side worked out how to use the wing.

After all it's a team sport. So where's the problem?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:20 am 
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Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe when looking at Hamilton's data it was more to do with his driving style and how he was using the tyres rather than the set up itself



Well isn't that using info the same way.

In one hand Lewis worked out how to drive the tyres in the other Jens side worked out how to use the wing.

After all it's a team sport. So where's the problem?


The problem is that Jenson has passed off his May to July lapse as "helping the team in a way"
and blamed the loss of constructors title on "the cars' " lack of pace , which is clearly not the case ,


Funny thing is Lewis wanted to use the in season testing as an opportunity to get a better-understanding of the tyres , he clearly realised they could pose a major problem . McLaren blocked him much to his irritation ,the other teams allowed their drivers to test , Jenson didn't think it was necessary for them to go and it turns out that he needed it more than Lewis .


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I believe when looking at Hamilton's data it was more to do with his driving style and how he was using the tyres rather than the set up itself


Nope, that is called telemtry


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:56 am 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe when looking at Hamilton's data it was more to do with his driving style and how he was using the tyres rather than the set up itself


Nope, that is called telemtry


Good article here explaining how and why telemetry and data used when one driver is struggling .

http://scarbsf1.com/blog1/2011/08/18/te ... roduction/


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:58 am 
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the title should be: Buttons lack of pace cost us the title. :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:01 am 
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dannyjames8 wrote:
the title should be: Buttons lack of pace cost us the title. :lol: :lol:

Nice! First bash of the year, well done

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:13 am 
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Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
No. Because they had a Monza specific package at Monza, wich needs a complete different set up compared to Spa.
Spa set up from JB would be useless, for Lewis at Monza.



Really.

'Cause guess what package Lewis ran at Monza?

The same one Jens used at Spa.

I very much doubt it would be exactly the same as the circuits are different



Then why would they have looked at Lewis' Previous data for Jens?

The Circuits are different .


and I never said they would have used the 100% same set up. Just that they likely used JBs Data from Spa. Think logically. would you go into FP1 or work on the Sim with a clean sheet of paper and start from scratch re-learning what has already been learnt. Or would you start with a proven working set up and tune it to suit?

Which one do you think would be a better more efficient use of time and resources? Especially considering both are Low Downforce high speed circuits.

If you were in charge what would you do?

It's guesswork what you do here, we know JB used Lewis data & copied his set up to come out of his problems, but you have nothing to prove Lewis copied Jensons.
It's not that Hamilton was lost on set up like Button was, he had just no time at Spa to work a working set up out, at Monza he had 62 laps for it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:24 am 
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Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe when looking at Hamilton's data it was more to do with his driving style and how he was using the tyres rather than the set up itself



Well isn't that using info the same way.

In one hand Lewis worked out how to drive the tyres in the other Jens side worked out how to use the wing.

After all it's a team sport. So where's the problem?

Had he used JBs info? How do you know it?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:29 am 
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Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe when looking at Hamilton's data it was more to do with his driving style and how he was using the tyres rather than the set up itself



Well isn't that using info the same way.

In one hand Lewis worked out how to drive the tyres in the other Jens side worked out how to use the wing.

After all it's a team sport. So where's the problem?

Had he used JBs info? How do you know it?

Well if you watched the JB interview on sky you would know that Lewis used JB's setup in Europe ( Race setup that is )

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:34 am 
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dave_the_fish wrote:
Haribo wrote:
GoOnJenson wrote:
Pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least once this year too.

Why should he?

Because even Lewis cannot find the right setup all the time.

Edit

Or get a bit lost with setup.

But it's a bit rich to say "pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least one this year"
because there is no proof & nobody here knows it!
On the other side we have the confirmation Button used & copied Hamiltons set up & data.
The discussion started because someone here wrote about JB:
Quote:
I doubt that JB and his side of the team will ever need to look at the other driver data, he is a very well season veteran ...

wich was ridiculous, to say.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:35 am 
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dave_the_fish wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe when looking at Hamilton's data it was more to do with his driving style and how he was using the tyres rather than the set up itself



Well isn't that using info the same way.

In one hand Lewis worked out how to drive the tyres in the other Jens side worked out how to use the wing.

After all it's a team sport. So where's the problem?

Had he used JBs info? How do you know it?

Well if you watched the JB interview on sky you would know that Lewis used JB's setup in Europe ( Race setup that is )

Link

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:38 am 
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Haribo wrote:
dave_the_fish wrote:
Haribo wrote:
GoOnJenson wrote:
Pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least once this year too.

Why should he?

Because even Lewis cannot find the right setup all the time.

Edit

Or get a bit lost with setup.

But it's a bit rich to say "pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least one this year"
because there is no proof & nobody here knows it!
On the other side we have the confirmation Button used & copied Hamiltons set up & data.
The discussion started because someone here wrote about JB:
Quote:
I doubt that JB and his side of the team will ever need to look at the other driver data, he is a very well season veteran ...

wich was ridiculous, to say.

But the one I quoted was that Lewis never used JB's setup ( Which is hogswash )

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:41 am 
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Haribo wrote:
dave_the_fish wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe when looking at Hamilton's data it was more to do with his driving style and how he was using the tyres rather than the set up itself



Well isn't that using info the same way.

In one hand Lewis worked out how to drive the tyres in the other Jens side worked out how to use the wing.

After all it's a team sport. So where's the problem?

Had he used JBs info? How do you know it?

Well if you watched the JB interview on sky you would know that Lewis used JB's setup in Europe ( Race setup that is )

Link

It was on a Sky interview with JB did I not make that clear?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:44 am 
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dave_the_fish wrote:
Haribo wrote:
dave_the_fish wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:


Well isn't that using info the same way.

In one hand Lewis worked out how to drive the tyres in the other Jens side worked out how to use the wing.

After all it's a team sport. So where's the problem?

Had he used JBs info? How do you know it?

Well if you watched the JB interview on sky you would know that Lewis used JB's setup in Europe ( Race setup that is )

Link

It was on a Sky interview with JB did I not make that clear?

You can say anything, without a link or a quote...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:53 am 
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dave_the_fish wrote:
Haribo wrote:
dave_the_fish wrote:
Haribo wrote:
GoOnJenson wrote:
Pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least once this year too.

Why should he?

Because even Lewis cannot find the right setup all the time.

Edit

Or get a bit lost with setup.

But it's a bit rich to say "pretty sure Lewis used Jensons set up at least one this year"
because there is no proof & nobody here knows it!
On the other side we have the confirmation Button used & copied Hamiltons set up & data.
The discussion started because someone here wrote about JB:
Quote:
I doubt that JB and his side of the team will ever need to look at the other driver data, he is a very well season veteran ...

wich was ridiculous, to say.

But the one I quoted was that Lewis never used JB's setup ( Which is hogswash )

Where was this quote, I must have missed it

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Last edited by Haribo on Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:55 am 
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After all it's a team sport. So where's the problem?[/quote]
Had he used JBs info? How do you know it?[/quote]
Well if you watched the JB interview on sky you would know that Lewis used JB's setup in Europe ( Race setup that is )[/quote]
Link[/quote]
It was on a Sky interview with JB did I not make that clear?[/quote]
You can say anything, without a link or a quote...[/quote]
like I said it was on Sky if you don't subscribe you won't get it ( I will look on YouTube in the morning)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:01 am 
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dave_the_fish wrote:
After all it's a team sport. So where's the problem?

Had he used JBs info? How do you know it?[/quote]
Well if you watched the JB interview on sky you would know that Lewis used JB's setup in Europe ( Race setup that is )[/quote]
Link[/quote]
It was on a Sky interview with JB did I not make that clear?[/quote]
You can say anything, without a link or a quote...[/quote]
like I said it was on Sky if you don't subscribe you won't get it ( I will look on YouTube in the morning)[/quote]
Very nice

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:03 am 
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Haribo wrote:
dave_the_fish wrote:
After all it's a team sport. So where's the problem?

Had he used JBs info? How do you know it?

Well if you watched the JB interview on sky you would know that Lewis used JB's setup in Europe ( Race setup that is )[/quote]
Link[/quote]
It was on a Sky interview with JB did I not make that clear?[/quote]
You can say anything, without a link or a quote...[/quote]
like I said it was on Sky if you don't subscribe you won't get it ( I will look on YouTube in the morning)[/quote]
Very nice[/quote]
Great so I'm lying then!!!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:07 am 
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I don't....what are....huh?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:11 am 
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dave_the_fish wrote:
Great so I'm lying then!!!

It's very nice from you to look for the quote ( video), this is what I meant with "very nice"

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:18 am 
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Haribo wrote:
dave_the_fish wrote:
Great so I'm lying then!!!

It's very nice from you to look for the quote ( video), this is what I meant with "very nice"

Ok cool, check out YouTube ( Jenson Button interview on Sky in full about 4 min in ) I would link but on phone don't know how :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:39 am 
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dave_the_fish wrote:
Haribo wrote:
dave_the_fish wrote:
Great so I'm lying then!!!

It's very nice from you to look for the quote ( video), this is what I meant with "very nice"

Ok cool, check out YouTube ( Jenson Button interview on Sky in full about 4 min in ) I would link but on phone don't know how :)


If by Europe you mean Valencia


http://blogs.bettor.com/Jenson-Button-t ... ws-a164504

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... track.html


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:38 pm 
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Qiwater wrote:
dave_the_fish wrote:
Haribo wrote:
dave_the_fish wrote:
Great so I'm lying then!!!

It's very nice from you to look for the quote ( video), this is what I meant with "very nice"

Ok cool, check out YouTube ( Jenson Button interview on Sky in full about 4 min in ) I would link but on phone don't know how :)


If by Europe you mean Valencia


http://blogs.bettor.com/Jenson-Button-t ... ws-a164504

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... track.html

Yes i do mean Valencia, Jenson went into the weekend using Lewis' ( BASE ) setup and adjusted it over the weekend to get the car to his liking.
Lewis for what ever reason couldn't find sweet spot and went towards JB's race setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR8uz6EH15o

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Did people not watch F1 last year?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:24 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe when looking at Hamilton's data it was more to do with his driving style and how he was using the tyres rather than the set up itself



Well isn't that using info the same way.

In one hand Lewis worked out how to drive the tyres in the other Jens side worked out how to use the wing.

After all it's a team sport. So where's the problem?

Well i'm not sure how much the drivers use one another's setup data and obviously in Spa Hamilton got it totally wrong but i guess this can happen from time to time. But this is much different to the problems Button was having, his driving style was preventing him from getting the performance out of the car that Hamilton was, plus he couldn't adapt his driving which Hamilton had done, the team basically had to make the car work for him which took several races to sort out.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:25 pm 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe when looking at Hamilton's data it was more to do with his driving style and how he was using the tyres rather than the set up itself


Nope, that is called telemtry

I miss your point

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Well i'm not sure how much the drivers use one another's setup data and obviously in Spa Hamilton got it totally wrong but i guess this can happen from time to time. But this is much different to the problems Button was having, his driving style was preventing him from getting the performance out of the car that Hamilton was, plus he couldn't adapt his driving which Hamilton had done, the team basically had to make the car work for him which took several races to sort out.

Big claims for someone looking in from the outside.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Well i'm not sure how much the drivers use one another's setup data and obviously in Spa Hamilton got it totally wrong but i guess this can happen from time to time. But this is much different to the problems Button was having, his driving style was preventing him from getting the performance out of the car that Hamilton was, plus he couldn't adapt his driving which Hamilton had done, the team basically had to make the car work for him which took several races to sort out.



Thats because the tyres were not behaving as tyres traditional behaved. The boffins were baffled. In Canada due to the mess up on Friday regarding JBs gear box they put JB out on the Montreal specific rear suspension (More Squat I believe) and Hammys set up because obviously Hammy had meaningful running time. (It was originally planned JB would use the standard rear suspension minus some "Gizmo" they had been using) .

How ever as we seen the tyre wear difference between the two was extreme.

Now if you were a team boss and two of your drivers were showing total different tyre wear patterns on the same set up, what would you do?

a) Ignore it and carry on?

b ) Analyse the data to cure the problem and understand the tyres better?

Remember understanding the tyres better doesn't just help one driver.

Or another way of looking at it. In Brazil between the two cars McLaren ran something like 32 different downforce levels when testing the new tyres. Should all the settings tested on Hammys car and info garnered be binned so that it doesn't help Sergio and JB?

Schui and Rosberg also tested the new tyres. Should Merc keep all they discovered secret from Hammy . Do you think any data that was gained by schui or Rosberg when testing 2013 parts shouldn't be used to help Hammy?

Of course not that would be daft and a waste of time shooting themselves in the foot. They are teams, it's a team sport and the teams own the info. They will analyse whatever they can to improve the car regardless of who the driver was and if the analyses is correct then that helps the team improve the car which helps both drivers. The only reason such a big deal was made of the whole thing was because it was during the swimming pool contest whilst contract negotiations were going on. I would bet money on it, if Lewis had signed before this then it wouldn't have been mentioned.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:00 pm 
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dave_the_fish wrote:
Well if you watched the JB interview on sky you would know that Lewis used JB's setup in Europe ( Race setup that is )

This what is so confusing to me, despite different driving styles Hamilton can basically jump into Button's car and drive it, but Hamilton's driving style is so alien to him he's not able to do likewise.

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