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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:01 am 
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McLaren could see when the tires were too hot or too cold, what they struggled to do was figure out WHY. There's no easy answer to that.

And yes, different parts on the cars are analyzed and discussed, thats the point of running them. Teams hope it DOES go unnoticed. They don't publish details of their testing or development for everyone else to copy.

JB said they had gone down the wrong path. All that means is they were doing something differently.

Look, I'm not saying my interpretation of the early season development is right and nobody else knows better, I'm going by my experience within teams, what I saw on track, what the tech experts were able to deduce, what makes sense given prior patterns and stats, and my perception of how the characters involved operate - I'm just trying to get you to understand that there is usually more going on than what meets the eye, and the amount of knowledge and info about what the teams are doing that we DON'T get to know is exponentially greater than the amount of info we ARE given. And that what someone says, even about himself, is not always the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:59 am 
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Qiwater wrote:

During the season he said it was due to set up now he says its because the car lacked pace .
Best way to warm tyres up is to drive fast but if Jenson was in tyre preserving mode in the hope of doing less stops ( plan A plan B ) that may have worked before but not as close as the cars were this year and not the way the tyres worked this year the faster drivers did better as did those who exited corners Lewis / Alonso style . Jensen simply had to alter his driving style to cope with the tyres on certain tracks .
In fact the only time I saw the Mclaren's struggle was in the wet this season


No the best way to warm up tyres is to have the car set up to do it.

But as said before the problem was not in warming them up. The problem was getting them all warmed up but not overheating one end.

and Jenson "Simply" had to alter his driving style? As if it's always that easy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:35 pm 
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thats what everyone demanded all the drivers with an aggressive style should do to manage their stupid marshmallow tyres


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:44 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
thats what everyone demanded all the drivers with an aggressive style should do to manage their stupid marshmallow tyres


With the Pirellis this year it wasn't all about Aggressive Vs Non aggressive.


If it was we would see all the aggressive drivers at one end of the scale and all the smooth ones at the other. It would also mean that aggressive drivers like Maldo or Lewis would have chewed up the "Marshmallow " tyres. Where as we seen Smooth drivers like Sergio or DiResta make them last and another like Button chew them.

From what I read it was more about how you drove in the brake, turning phases and acceleration phases. You could be aggressive and get it right or Smooth and get it right.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
thats what everyone demanded all the drivers with an aggressive style should do to manage their stupid marshmallow tyres


With the Pirellis this year it wasn't all about Aggressive Vs Non aggressive.


If it was we would see all the aggressive drivers at one end of the scale and all the smooth ones at the other. It would also mean that aggressive drivers like Maldo or Lewis would have chewed up the "Marshmallow " tyres. Where as we seen Smooth drivers like Sergio or DiResta make them last and another like Button chew them.

From what I read it was more about how you drove in the brake, turning phases and acceleration phases. You could be aggressive and get it right or Smooth and get it right.


they still had to change their style to protect their tyres though, of course they did!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:12 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Johnston wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
thats what everyone demanded all the drivers with an aggressive style should do to manage their stupid marshmallow tyres


With the Pirellis this year it wasn't all about Aggressive Vs Non aggressive.


If it was we would see all the aggressive drivers at one end of the scale and all the smooth ones at the other. It would also mean that aggressive drivers like Maldo or Lewis would have chewed up the "Marshmallow " tyres. Where as we seen Smooth drivers like Sergio or DiResta make them last and another like Button chew them.

From what I read it was more about how you drove in the brake, turning phases and acceleration phases. You could be aggressive and get it right or Smooth and get it right.


they still had to change their style to protect their tyres though, of course they did!


Not by anything as severe though. Did they?

Did any driver completely change their inherent style? Of course they didn't.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:53 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Johnston wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
thats what everyone demanded all the drivers with an aggressive style should do to manage their stupid marshmallow tyres


With the Pirellis this year it wasn't all about Aggressive Vs Non aggressive.


If it was we would see all the aggressive drivers at one end of the scale and all the smooth ones at the other. It would also mean that aggressive drivers like Maldo or Lewis would have chewed up the "Marshmallow " tyres. Where as we seen Smooth drivers like Sergio or DiResta make them last and another like Button chew them.

From what I read it was more about how you drove in the brake, turning phases and acceleration phases. You could be aggressive and get it right or Smooth and get it right.


they still had to change their style to protect their tyres though, of course they did!


Not by anything as severe though. Did they?

Did any driver completely change their inherent style? Of course they didn't.


Yes, drivers who had previously preferred a car with a lively rear had to dial in lots of understeer to protect the rear tyres


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:55 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:

Yes, drivers who had previously preferred a car with a lively rear had to dial in lots of understeer to protect the rear tyres



Like?

And don't forget the EBD last year removed the "Lively " rear end.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:00 pm 
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so drivers didnt have to dial in understeer?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:02 pm 
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I have no idea. Your the first I've heard mentioning it.

And dialling something in is a set up change and adapting not a full on driving style change.

They can keep their inherent style. I.e. Lewis can keep his late breaking style.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:00 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
I have no idea. Your the first I've heard mentioning it.

And dialling something in is a set up change and adapting not a full on driving style change.

They can keep their inherent style. I.e. Lewis can keep his late breaking style.

Well i believe in Hungary Hamilton was deliberately making his car understeer in order to protect his rear tyres, that would not be his normal driving style

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:07 pm 
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As an aside, understeer and oversteer are relative terms, and a car that feels understeery to one driver may feel neutral or prone to oversteer, in the exact same configuration, for another. How you drive is as much a part of the neutrality of the car as the components and their settings. Our big time faster than anybody driver could never help me set up my car because I couldn't get anything but vicious plowing from a setup he felt was very neutral, and with which he was extremely fast.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:23 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
As an aside, understeer and oversteer are relative terms, and a car that feels understeery to one driver may feel neutral or prone to oversteer, in the exact same configuration, for another. How you drive is as much a part of the neutrality of the car as the components and their settings. Our big time faster than anybody driver could never help me set up my car because I couldn't get anything but vicious plowing from a setup he felt was very neutral, and with which he was extremely fast.



:thumbup:

One of the guys I worked for had his 4WD tail happy like a MK2 Escort as he described it. A former British rally champion got into it and complained of the chronic understeer.

Me I was too feared to give it the welly :lol: :lol:

Inducing oversteer and understeer is not what I am talking about with inherent style. Every driver has an inherent style it's like DNA or a fingerprint. Not just when they brake but how they brake. They can all adapt to make the car do different things or to cope with different situations like the fuel load reducing during the race. But there core style will always be there.

Take a driver out of their F1 car and get them to do a lap in say a MP4_12c and log that data and that DNA as it were will still show up.

You do that with Seb, Lewis, Button, Alonso. Show their traces to their REs and I would put money on it their REs would be able to spot their drivers (Well maybe not Lewis he has a new one he hasn't worked with but you get my drift)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:42 pm 
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Yeah that's true, and I've played 'guess the driver' in the past!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:24 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
thats what everyone demanded all the drivers with an aggressive style should do to manage their stupid marshmallow tyres

Hermbery ( Pirelli) said Hamilton was the driver who adjusted his driving style most for the tyres, and he steadily improved on them , at the Gazetta dello sport,af, Sometime in the first half of the season

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:31 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
I have no idea. Your the first I've heard mentioning it.

And dialling something in is a set up change and adapting not a full on driving style change.

They can keep their inherent style. I.e. Lewis can keep his late breaking style.

Well i believe in Hungary Hamilton was deliberately making his car understeer in order to protect his rear tyres, that would not be his normal driving style

He mentioned on occassion, that they dial in sometimes as much understeer as possible to protect the rear tyres

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:33 am 
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Not sure if Paul has eyes on enough telemetry to make that statement believable. Can't imagine all the teams would trust one individual to look at that and not spill any, intentionally or otherwise. Pirelli of course sees some things, but its many different people analyzing data collected from the teams...I'd be really surprised if Paul actually had evidence to back that up as more than an educated guess. I'll ask him though. Not about Lewis, but what type of data he sees.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:27 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
Not sure if Paul has eyes on enough telemetry to make that statement believable. Can't imagine all the teams would trust one individual to look at that and not spill any, intentionally or otherwise. Pirelli of course sees some things, but its many different people analyzing data collected from the teams...I'd be really surprised if Paul actually had evidence to back that up as more than an educated guess. I'll ask him though. Not about Lewis, but what type of data he sees.

Ask him & ask him also why he would have put a bet on Hamilton as WDC 2013 if he stayed at McLaren, but now has to wait & see, but has not mentioned Button as he will be McL's Nr1 this year.

hembery also had said LH had got out about 1km more (93,xykm) out of each set of tyres used 2012 than JB (92, xykm)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:05 am 
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I don't think he'd answer that, and I won't ask him. I make it a point to only ever ask technical questions, and he's always been kind enough to answer them.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:33 am 
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Drivers have had to change their style in the past. Watch Fernando Alonso onboard in 2006 and then 2007, he completely changed his driving style. Fisichella was not able to change his natural driving style to extract the maximum out of the 2005 and 2006 Renaults and thus was thrashed by Alonso. Alonso has said the 2005/06 style was not his instinctive way to drive the car but he adapted to drive it in this way as it was the fastest way.

Alonso 2006, renault, michelin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga2oMhfV94Y

Fisichella 2006, renault, michelin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wBg-VWTlj8

Alonso 2007, mclaren, bridgestone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3mYQQsFmac

If you are good enough you will adapt

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:35 am 
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Haribo wrote:
IMO not every little bit is shared the drivers & their engineers try to keep some little secrets for themselfes, to have a little advantage over the other side of the greage.
Hamilton mentioned it, when he said he was surprised, to see ALL engineers ( his engineers, too) sit around the table, with all of his data, to the bits, all his tiny little secrets everything he worked out with his engineers.


The engineers assigned to Hamilton are employees of Mclaren, as well as Hamilton himself, Button, and his entourage. Hamilton's engineers are there to assist the driver in maximizing the performance of the car. And in the big picture, it's more important to make the MP4-27 do well. If the car itself is good, then the drivers can benefit from any improvements.

And that's what some fans are missing, that any engineer assigned to any driver is there for the short range goal of giving their driver as good an advantage as possible. The second (and probably most important) long range goal is to improve the entire car, because as mentioned, they are employess of the parent company, the driver does not pay their salary.

And as far as the data collected, it's carefully kept within the team, but spread far and wide. All data is streamed back to the factory for the engineers there to assist in setup and development. All data is available for all, because it helps the team. And if one driver gets all prickley because the other driver used his setup and got quicker times, then who's the quicker driver?

Far too many fans perceive racing between team mates as some form of nasty competition where one has to "destroy" the other. The reality is that they are employees of the same company, and their job is to individually do their best, but also factor in as part of the development and improvement process for the entire team, and the MP4-27.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:29 am 
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Haribo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
I have no idea. Your the first I've heard mentioning it.

And dialling something in is a set up change and adapting not a full on driving style change.

They can keep their inherent style. I.e. Lewis can keep his late breaking style.

Well i believe in Hungary Hamilton was deliberately making his car understeer in order to protect his rear tyres, that would not be his normal driving style

He mentioned on occassion, that they dial in sometimes as much understeer as possible to protect the rear tyres



So thats dealing with a set up change NOT a Driving style change.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:52 am 
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lamo wrote:
Drivers have had to change their style in the past. Watch Fernando Alonso onboard in 2006 and then 2007, he completely changed his driving style. Fisichella was not able to change his natural driving style to extract the maximum out of the 2005 and 2006 Renaults and thus was thrashed by Alonso. Alonso has said the 2005/06 style was not his instinctive way to drive the car but he adapted to drive it in this way as it was the fastest way.

Alonso 2006, renault, michelin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga2oMhfV94Y

Fisichella 2006, renault, michelin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wBg-VWTlj8

Alonso 2007, mclaren, bridgestone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3mYQQsFmac

If you are good enough you will adapt


Adapting is not changing your inherent style.

Watching In Boards does not give you info like how they use their brakes and Throttle. They might evolve over the years BUT their is no flip of the switch.

Drivers have a "Tell" like two guys I knew. One An International Champion (Works driver) the other Very quick had rallied at international level just no funds (and most importantly probably better than the other guy) .

One guy no matter what car he was in Would brake hard then back off the breaks almost completely but not quite and then apply more pressure gradually. That put the weight on the nose to help turn in and help prevent lock ups.

The other would give the brakes a little dab then come off them completely then braking again for the corner. We always called it a confidence brake. It was as if he was sub conciously checking they were working before commiting. He didn't even now he was doing it until it was pointed out.

There was a third guy who rallied for a works team also. He was just balls out Hammy style late braker tried his best to kill me :lol: :lol:

Put them in different cars, they all adapted like in a RWD they would control the rear with the throttle. In a 205 they would change how they down shifted and lifted to prevent the tail end understeer. But if you were blind folded and put into the car you could tell which one was which just by the way they drove, the braking how they used the throttle how much sawing at the wheel they done. It sounds silly but between the first two in corners with one you always felt like the nose of the car was in the air with the other it always felt like it was pointing down. Just because of the way they used the brakes and throttle.

Or look on YT for the telem comparision between Schui and Herbert.

From what I read it's the brakes that were the important part of the Pirelli equation this year. Because of the way the rubber reacted when the load went on, thats one of the reasons they have improved the bi-directional qualities of it . Or whatever the terminology is they are using this year.


Of course this conversation is kinda Moot as McLaren didn't know what to do so even if it was possible to hit a reset switch they didn't know what to reset it too until the fabled meeting.


Edit Or another way of looking at it. If drivers could all change their style. Everyone of Schuis team mates would drive like Schui.

Massa would be driving like Alonso to make Ferraris life easier

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:07 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
McLaren could see when the tires were too hot or too cold, what they struggled to do was figure out WHY. There's no easy answer to that.

And yes, different parts on the cars are analyzed and discussed, thats the point of running them. Teams hope it DOES go unnoticed. They don't publish details of their testing or development for everyone else to copy.

JB said they had gone down the wrong path. All that means is they were doing something differently.

Look, I'm not saying my interpretation of the early season development is right and nobody else knows better, I'm going by my experience within teams, what I saw on track, what the tech experts were able to deduce, what makes sense given prior patterns and stats, and my perception of how the characters involved operate - I'm just trying to get you to understand that there is usually more going on than what meets the eye, and the amount of knowledge and info about what the teams are doing that we DON'T get to know is exponentially greater than the amount of info we ARE given. And that what someone says, even about himself, is not always the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


I waited a while before I responded with a frank response with a tough emotional defense.

Fact is for a few races Button was not just off the pace like he usually was but he was miles off the pace, is that typical Button - NO. Remember when Lewis was miles off the pace from Button as a result of car differences? makes you wonder that maybe Button had a similar thing but the team didnt know why. Another fact - Buttons pace returned as he showed in Brazil. As a Button fan I wasnt happy with what was going on but I have supported Button since he joined in Williams and I have never seen him struggle so badly even compared to his BAR Honda days. Even in Canada a race suited to Mclaren and Button has done very well in the past yet he was 1-2 seconds off the pace. Any driver who is struggling that bad is either a washout (Badoer style) or something is seriously wrong. You dont magically go well off the pace unless there is mind issues or car problems. Button is not one to have mind issues. When Lewis was well off the pace he was not happy with the way his car went and Button didnt have a strop when he suffered the same fate, watching his team mate going off to win while he was struggling for pace in Qualifying.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
thats what everyone demanded all the drivers with an aggressive style should do to manage their stupid marshmallow tyres

Hermbery ( Pirelli) said Hamilton was the driver who adjusted his driving style most for the tyres, and he steadily improved on them , at the Gazetta dello sport,af, Sometime in the first half of the season

Thats interesting i always got the impression in 2011 of a reluctance of him to change is driving style for the tyres, not to give up his attacking driving style and then having terrible wear problems and overheating problems.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:15 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
I have no idea. Your the first I've heard mentioning it.

And dialling something in is a set up change and adapting not a full on driving style change.

They can keep their inherent style. I.e. Lewis can keep his late breaking style.

Well i believe in Hungary Hamilton was deliberately making his car understeer in order to protect his rear tyres, that would not be his normal driving style

He mentioned on occassion, that they dial in sometimes as much understeer as possible to protect the rear tyres

Yes i understand that but on this occasion he was actually driving to induce understeer in order to protect the rear tyres

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Haribo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
I have no idea. Your the first I've heard mentioning it.

And dialling something in is a set up change and adapting not a full on driving style change.

They can keep their inherent style. I.e. Lewis can keep his late breaking style.

Well i believe in Hungary Hamilton was deliberately making his car understeer in order to protect his rear tyres, that would not be his normal driving style

He mentioned on occassion, that they dial in sometimes as much understeer as possible to protect the rear tyres

Yes i understand that but on this occasion he was actually driving to induce understeer in order to protect the rear tyres

Yes, I think it was like this.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:52 pm 
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Quick question for everyone who is discussing driving styles, understeer, and data - who among you have driven racing cars and/or analyzed driver data?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:52 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Quick question for everyone who is discussing driving styles, understeer, and data - who among you have driven racing cars and/or analyzed driver data?

I understand understeer and oversteer from driving karts but have never driven a racing car or studied driver data.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:03 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Quick question for everyone who is discussing driving styles, understeer, and data - who among you have driven racing cars and/or analyzed driver data?


I haven't really driven in race trim before (plenty of properly fast Karting but not an actual car with a Diff). soon i will perhaps

I have looked at some proper driver data however and done some analysis on them (some of them BMW drivers ;) ). and i have created vehicle/dynamics and tyre models and analysed them to dictate design goals and alternatives.

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
The engineers assigned to Hamilton are employees of Mclaren, as well as Hamilton himself, Button, and his entourage. Hamilton's engineers are there to assist the driver in maximizing the performance of the car. And in the big picture, it's more important to make the MP4-27 do well. If the car itself is good, then the drivers can benefit from any improvements.

And that's what some fans are missing, that any engineer assigned to any driver is there for the short range goal of giving their driver as good an advantage as possible. The second (and probably most important) long range goal is to improve the entire car, because as mentioned, they are employess of the parent company, the driver does not pay their salary.

And as far as the data collected, it's carefully kept within the team, but spread far and wide. All data is streamed back to the factory for the engineers there to assist in setup and development. All data is available for all, because it helps the team. And if one driver gets all prickley because the other driver used his setup and got quicker times, then who's the quicker driver?

Far too many fans perceive racing between team mates as some form of nasty competition where one has to "destroy" the other. The reality is that they are employees of the same company, and their job is to individually do their best, but also factor in as part of the development and improvement process for the entire team, and the MP4-27.


glad to see some of the familiar sense talking forumers back in :)

Why don't you give us your take on Jenson's mid season slump Blinky, always an opinion worth hearing


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:14 pm 
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I haven't read the whole thread, but does somebody mention the front wing flexibility rectification late in the season? The McLarens lost suddenly pace from one race to another after September and had to use their older front wings because it seems Ferrari complained on that regard, on the other hand RBR front wings managed to cope with the new torsion test. It seems that the regulation have been changed for the next year in order to avoid RBR coming through again.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:19 pm 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Quick question for everyone who is discussing driving styles, understeer, and data - who among you have driven racing cars and/or analyzed driver data?


I haven't really driven in race trim before (plenty of properly fast Karting but not an actual car with a Diff). soon i will perhaps

I have looked at some proper driver data however and done some analysis on them (some of them BMW drivers ;) ). and i have created vehicle/dynamics and tyre models and analysed them to dictate design goals and alternatives.

I didn't mean you, I already know your qualifications :P

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:26 pm 
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Qualifications. I have stage one word processing :P

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:47 pm 
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And an awesome avatar.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:08 pm 
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Cheers, seen it today looking for something else and just had the image of ron doing that very thing whilst reading all the Macca threads. :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:40 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Quick question for everyone who is discussing driving styles, understeer, and data - who among you have driven racing cars and/or analyzed driver data?

Have you ever discussed about the weather?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:45 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Quick question for everyone who is discussing driving styles, understeer, and data - who among you have driven racing cars and/or analyzed driver data?

Have you ever discussed about the weather?



Would you tell a meteorologist it's going to be sunny if they said it's going to snow?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:45 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Quick question for everyone who is discussing driving styles, understeer, and data - who among you have driven racing cars and/or analyzed driver data?

Have you ever discussed about the weather?


I'm sure Ashley has experienced the weather many times.. Maybe even once a day!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Quick question for everyone who is discussing driving styles, understeer, and data - who among you have driven racing cars and/or analyzed driver data?

Have you ever discussed about the weather?



Would you tell a meteorologist it's going to be sunny if they said it's going to snow?

Yes, because everyone is allowed to discuss about, without being a metereologist

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:57 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Yes, because everyone is allowed to discuss about, without being a metereologist



Bet your GP loves you.

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