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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:09 am 
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http://www.onestopstrategy.com/dailyf1news/nieuw/article/18965-Ferrari+says+Red+Bull+give+%27best+parts%27+to+Vettel.html

Thursday 27 December at 06:35 : Dec.27 (GMM) Red Bull also has a clear number 1 driver, Ferrari team boss Stefano Domenicali has alleged.

The fabled Italian team is open about its policy of hiring a clearly superior top driver - presently Fernando Alonso - alongside a capable 'number 2' such as Felipe Massa.

In Austin last month, this policy was highlighted when Ferrari deliberately incurred a gearbox penalty on Brazilian Massa's car in order to give Alonso a better grid position.

"If the others don't like it, we don't care," Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo is quoted by Marca sports newspaper.

"Others are critical but do the same, although less transparently."

Team principal Domenicali picks up the theme.

"Why does Webber have so many failures on his car? Because the best parts go to the driver getting the better results.

"And this is normal, and it seems so logical that we never say anything.

"We don't like to speak of the others, but the others like to talk about us," he added.


Meanwhile, Domenicali admitted Ferrari is looking forward to 2013, even though Red Bull and McLaren had superior cars this year and the rules are not changing much.

Ferrari, though, thinks the banning of DRS on Saturday is a "major change", while Pirelli will supply softer tyres.

"This year it took us between two and five laps to heat the tyres," said Domenicali.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:28 am 
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oh my dear lord... so when Vettel's alternator failed a couple of times, he was given better parts? so when Vettel's fuel pump had issues, he was given better parts? I know Webber had some Kers and maybe even alternator issues but this kind of statement appears that SD is just trying to deflect from the unsporting behavior they practiced and the lack of ultimate success under his leadership. If Webber believed he was no.2, he would be outta the team and joining Ferrari because he'd rather help his mate Fernando win than Vettel as clearly seen in over a number of GPs now. And since that "not bad for no.2" incident, Webber has not gone mental again, which suggests to me that he knows he has equal treatment. Sigh...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:31 am 
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It's no surprise that the number one gets the best bits. Would be better if CH was honest about it


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:38 am 
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If Webber was getting unequal treatment he would say so, he's not one to mince his words with the media. He also wouldn't have signed on with Red Bull for another year.

Also the argument about the number of failures on Webber's car is total nonsense. Parts like KERS components and alternators will be bought in from a supplier whose quality control process will ensure that they are all pretty much identical. Is Domenicali suggesting that Red Bull deliberately buy in some lower quality components with a higher failure rate just to put on Webber's car? What a load of tripe


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:07 am 
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The Alternator problem was a known one before the season started I believe but Renault didn't sort it and the Red Bull design exasperated the problem I think.

as for the KERS on Marks car Ashley has a very good theory on that. I'll let her explain it herself.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:21 am 
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"We don't like to speak of the others, but the others like to talk about us,"
Really? It looks to me like you're always the first ones to discredit others' achievements.

Of course if there is only one new part, it would go to the driver with better results and a better chance of winning the title. How else should it be?
I don't think Mark would've stayed in Red Bull if he was so clearly disadvantaged.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:23 am 
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Pot, kettle, and black comes to mind.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:25 am 
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So basically , he is formally admitting that Alonso is #1 and Massa is #2 and Alonso gets preferential treatment.

Guys - this is massive ! Dont think any Ferrari TP did that before


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:05 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
So basically , he is formally admitting that Alonso is #1 and Massa is #2 and Alonso gets preferential treatment.

Guys - this is massive ! Dont think any Ferrari TP did that before


They've said many times that Alonso got the new parts quicker than Massa. I remember both at India and Abu Dhabi. They said they same several times when they had MSC. Same thing has happened to Vettel this year. AFAIK RBR has a smaller budget than Ferrari, so i doubt they'd been able to produce parts for both cars when Ferrari couldn't. It would suit RBR to actually admit it.
Nothing new and nothing massive


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:11 pm 
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I thought the whole RBR being a small team was a myth and the actual figures showed they spent more than ferrari in 2011

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=48178

Not the link I was looking for but a recent one.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Herbalist wrote:
F1yer wrote:
So basically , he is formally admitting that Alonso is #1 and Massa is #2 and Alonso gets preferential treatment.

Guys - this is massive ! Dont think any Ferrari TP did that before


They've said many times that Alonso got the new parts quicker than Massa. I remember both at India and Abu Dhabi. They said they same several times when they had MSC. Same thing has happened to Vettel this year. AFAIK RBR has a smaller budget than Ferrari, so i doubt they'd been able to produce parts for both cars when Ferrari couldn't. It would suit RBR to actually admit it.
Nothing new and nothing massive


Teams deliberately test parts on only one car a> to minimise risk and b> to learn the relative performance gain under real race conditions. Its not always about saving a few quids..

Why I think its massive is not because SD is saying that parts are given to only one driver , but because he is insinuating that in doing so, they favor #1 driver. By attacking other teams of favoring their #1 drivers, he is in effect admitting that Ferrari do it systemically.

All this while , we could see that Massa got the rough end of stick on track strategies , yeilding when ahead etc, but could only speculate if Massa got the same car. Now we can be sure that Massa is not getting the same car as Alonso coz their TP has come forward and foolishly spilled the beans.

Good job Ferrari ! Massa - find another seat dude !


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:38 pm 
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Jinx wrote:
oh my dear lord... so when Vettel's alternator failed a couple of times, he was given better parts?

Just to be clear the alternator is part of the engine which is supplied by Renault not Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
I thought the whole RBR being a small team was a myth and the actual figures showed they spent more than ferrari in 2011

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=48178

Not the link I was looking for but a recent one.


I guess you were the only one thinking that.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:48 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
Herbalist wrote:
F1yer wrote:
So basically , he is formally admitting that Alonso is #1 and Massa is #2 and Alonso gets preferential treatment.

Guys - this is massive ! Dont think any Ferrari TP did that before


They've said many times that Alonso got the new parts quicker than Massa. I remember both at India and Abu Dhabi. They said they same several times when they had MSC. Same thing has happened to Vettel this year. AFAIK RBR has a smaller budget than Ferrari, so i doubt they'd been able to produce parts for both cars when Ferrari couldn't. It would suit RBR to actually admit it.
Nothing new and nothing massive


Teams deliberately test parts on only one car a> to minimise risk and b> to learn the relative performance gain under real race conditions. Its not always about saving a few quids..

Why I think its massive is not because SD is saying that parts are given to only one driver , but because he is insinuating that in doing so, they favor #1 driver. By attacking other teams of favoring their #1 drivers, he is in effect admitting that Ferrari do it systemically.

All this while , we could see that Massa got the rough end of stick on track strategies , yeilding when ahead etc, but could only speculate if Massa got the same car. Now we can be sure that Massa is not getting the same car as Alonso coz their TP has come forward and foolishly spilled the beans.

Good job Ferrari ! Massa - find another seat dude !


You cannot be a critic and then just realise Ferrari gives preferential treatment.... anyway, if you could explain how Ferrari weren't right in their decisions to favour Alonso this year(and the others for that sake), please do so.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Herbalist wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Herbalist wrote:
F1yer wrote:
So basically , he is formally admitting that Alonso is #1 and Massa is #2 and Alonso gets preferential treatment.

Guys - this is massive ! Dont think any Ferrari TP did that before


They've said many times that Alonso got the new parts quicker than Massa. I remember both at India and Abu Dhabi. They said they same several times when they had MSC. Same thing has happened to Vettel this year. AFAIK RBR has a smaller budget than Ferrari, so i doubt they'd been able to produce parts for both cars when Ferrari couldn't. It would suit RBR to actually admit it.
Nothing new and nothing massive


Teams deliberately test parts on only one car a> to minimise risk and b> to learn the relative performance gain under real race conditions. Its not always about saving a few quids..

Why I think its massive is not because SD is saying that parts are given to only one driver , but because he is insinuating that in doing so, they favor #1 driver. By attacking other teams of favoring their #1 drivers, he is in effect admitting that Ferrari do it systemically.

All this while , we could see that Massa got the rough end of stick on track strategies , yeilding when ahead etc, but could only speculate if Massa got the same car. Now we can be sure that Massa is not getting the same car as Alonso coz their TP has come forward and foolishly spilled the beans.

Good job Ferrari ! Massa - find another seat dude !


You cannot be a critic and then just realise Ferrari gives preferential treatment.... anyway, if you could explain how Ferrari weren't right in their decisions to favour Alonso this year(and the others for that sake), please do so.


I think you missed the point...
.. or rather i wasnt clear about the point myself.

Anyway the point is not that we didnt know that ferrari were favoring Alonso , and it certainly isnt about proving whether they were right or wrong in doing so. It is about SD inadverantly admitting that Massa doesnt get the same parts as Alonso in his quest to paint RBR in the same light.

Why its bigger than it appears is because it is an admission of Ferrari's way of operating as a racing outfit.

Till now , it was all speculation that Massa wasnt getting the same parts. Now its an admitted fact !


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:05 pm 
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specdecible wrote:
Jinx wrote:
oh my dear lord... so when Vettel's alternator failed a couple of times, he was given better parts?

Just to be clear the alternator is part of the engine which is supplied by Renault not Red Bull.

And so is the kers.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Vettel was given the priority with the alternators considered "safe" - the 2011 spec ones after the early failures, it was in the press if you looked hard enough. Brundle even mentioned it in Austin - that for the first time in a long time the RBRs were actually running the same alternators. Early on doesn't count as they didn't know they had a problem.

It's been pretty evident the last fews years that yes, Vettel gets the better bits - it's Mark's KERs system that seems to fail constantly after all. This year in the second half of the season Vettel also regularly got to run new parts that Webber didn't.

It's the thing I hate most about RBR, they are supremely hypocritical.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:13 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
Till now , it was all speculation that Massa wasnt getting the same parts. Now its an admitted fact !


No, they've said that many times during the year. And i'm still interested in how Ferrari was wrong in favouring Alonso.


Last edited by Herbalist on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:16 pm 
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When Vettel was given priority of the Alternators, Mark was effectively out of the battle. It was only when they ran out of the old spec alternators did Seb get Priority. IIRC that happened around Abu and Mark was 90ish points behind

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Jinx wrote:
oh my dear lord... so when Vettel's alternator failed a couple of times, he was given better parts? so when Vettel's fuel pump had issues, he was given better parts? I know Webber had some Kers and maybe even alternator issues but this kind of statement appears that SD is just trying to deflect from the unsporting behavior they practiced and the lack of ultimate success under his leadership. If Webber believed he was no.2, he would be outta the team and joining Ferrari because he'd rather help his mate Fernando win than Vettel as clearly seen in over a number of GPs now. And since that "not bad for no.2" incident, Webber has not gone mental again, which suggests to me that he knows he has equal treatment. Sigh...

So, since Massa has not been vocal about it either, does that suggest to your that he knows he has equal treatment too? And he fact that Massa has signed again with Ferrari means that he does not believe he is number 2?

Both Webber and Massa have been asked by their teams to support their teammates in the recent past, and I'd say that 1) their respective teams were entitled to ask their drivers to do what the team thought was best, and 2) that results seem to support the idea that their respective teams were right.

Having said that, I fully understad why Massa and Webber supporters dislike this situation, and why people in general would prefer to see a closer battle between teammates.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:38 pm 
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oh my dear lord its pure simple

he is a test gunnie pig

his contract states hes number 2

hes a crap driver


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:39 pm 
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How do they classify 'good parts' and 'bad parts'? Is it manufactured with such grades? LdM's comments seem desperate and silly, uncalled for really.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:45 pm 
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Herbalist wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Till now , it was all speculation that Massa wasnt getting the same parts. Now its an admitted fact !


No, they've said that many times during the year. And i'm still interested in how Ferrari was wrong in favouring Alonso.

Well - I never saw any direct quote saying Alonso is favored with respect to parts etc.

Hell , the first I saw even a headline with parts not being the same was when Massa started beating Alonso. Then they came out saying "oh Massa was running different wing and such like " :nod:

And proving that ferrari are wrong to take the approach of favoring one driver from race 1 wasnt my intention - its just how Ferrari want to play in the sport - so good for them. But if you insist - if they had supported Massa from the beginning , probbaly Massa would have challenged for the title , probably got the WCC with both drivers firing OR been able to steal points off Vettel to secure Alonso the title. Its all woulda coulda shoulda

The only negative I can see in giving Massa equal treatment is the risk that Alonso's toys might end up on track and Ferrari would lose more points than they would gain by properly supporting 2 drivers.


Last edited by F1yer on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Horner: Alonso gets better parts than Massa.

Holy sh*t, the revelations are flying today :)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:46 pm 
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The parts that fail on Mark's car are not development parts - its usually his KERS. Does anyone honestly think a team spending as much as RBR can't build two sets of KERS parts? Come on.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:08 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
The Alternator problem was a known one before the season started I believe but Renault didn't sort it and the Red Bull design exasperated the problem I think.

as for the KERS on Marks car Ashley has a very good theory on that. I'll let her explain it herself.

I almost forgot I had a theory! Thanks for the reminder. Also, Adrian said in Austin that Renault has been suffering the same type of alternator failure since testing in 2005.

Back to my theory. Drivers don't use KERS the same way. Not only can you choose where to deploy KERS energy and how much to use, you can also choose the rate at which the energy is harvested from your rear axle, which in turn affects engine braking. We all know the Pirellis aren't very good at doing two things at once - you want to brake AND turn in? No, sorry, choose one or the other.

I think Mark's KERS problems come from using harvesting settings that are outside the happy place for the components, and I think he uses those harvesting rates because it has the desired effect on braking that suits his style. He is always slow in, fast out, while his teammate is fast in, slow out. A greater harvesting rate and more "abrupt" input to the tires could also explain why Mark seems to use up his tires sooner in that first stint that in teammate, almost all the time. Further, whenever Mark loses KERS his performance seems MORE affected than anyone else who loses it. He gets MUCH slower, which to me indicates he's losing performance not just from the lack of the power boost, but also the help under braking.

He also never seems surprised or makes a big stink about the KERS failures, which makes me think they understand why its happening (if I can come up with this they certainly can) and have decided that the benefits of using it in that manner outweigh the potential failures.

I've also read a lot about the possibility that RBR uses a sort of two stage KERS system - where they store some energy in battery packs like the rest of the teams, and some in supercaps. The difference being that the supercaps can deliver the energy more quickly than the battery packs, but that the battery packs hold the energy for longer and can deliver it more smoothly. What I don't know is how that kind of setup would influence harvesting, but I imagine it could magnify the problem for Mark.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:20 pm 
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I've had similar thoughts in the past about it being a matter of how Webber harvests, and expends the power of his KERS that affects the reliability on his car more than on Vettels.

But I would disagree about how you describe their cornering styles. It seems to me that Seb is far from being late on the brakes, and slower on the throttle. While I do think his entry speed is higher than Marks, he is usually hard on the gas much sooner than most any other driver. There's been a couple of races over the last two seasons where someone (usually Hamilton) is on his gear box into a corner, but coming out Seb jumps on the gas and pulls out enough of a gap to hold off a car with better straight line speed down the following straight.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:29 pm 
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"I get my speed in the corners in the entry, while Mark is better at the exit." - SV, on the topic of RB8 development throughout the season

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:33 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
I've had similar thoughts in the past about it being a matter of how Webber harvests, and expends the power of his KERS that affects the reliability on his car more than on Vettels.

But I would disagree about how you describe their cornering styles. It seems to me that Seb is far from being late on the brakes, and slower on the throttle. While I do think his entry speed is higher than Marks, he is usually hard on the gas much sooner than most any other driver. There's been a couple of races over the last two seasons where someone (usually Hamilton) is on his gear box into a corner, but coming out Seb jumps on the gas and pulls out enough of a gap to hold off a car with better straight line speed down the following straight.


Agreed, he seems to give the car more throttle out of the corner but shifts up into the next gear sooner than most of the drivers i've seen over the season.


Last edited by MikeV1987 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:20 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
"I get my speed in the corners in the entry, while Mark is better at the exit." - SV, on the topic of RB8 development throughout the season


lol

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:33 pm 
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why is that funny?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:21 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
"I get my speed in the corners in the entry, while Mark is better at the exit." - SV, on the topic of RB8 development throughout the season


I've said it before here but I think Seb likes a very aggressive (open) diff setting for corner entry, which gets the car rotating nice and early, but without the extra slug of downforce from an EBD or Coanda exhaust it's a little too twitchy.

Webber on the other hand probably goes a little more conservative (more locking) so his car is more stable but ultimately he can't extract the benefit of the extra downforce to the extent of Vettel.

I like your KERS theory, could definitely hold water and perhaps his harvesting setting is helping him do something similar to what Vettel does with the diff setting? I'm getting rather speculative now and a little off topic but great discussion!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:01 am 
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Webber's car fails all the time, it's not just KERS/DRS but all sorts of issues and the opportunity costs for Webber are huge. I can provide a list if anyone's interested.

Domenicali wouldn't be saying this if other teams were as honest and up-front about favoritism as Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:15 am 
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morgana wrote:
Jinx wrote:
oh my dear lord... so when Vettel's alternator failed a couple of times, he was given better parts? so when Vettel's fuel pump had issues, he was given better parts? I know Webber had some Kers and maybe even alternator issues but this kind of statement appears that SD is just trying to deflect from the unsporting behavior they practiced and the lack of ultimate success under his leadership. If Webber believed he was no.2, he would be outta the team and joining Ferrari because he'd rather help his mate Fernando win than Vettel as clearly seen in over a number of GPs now. And since that "not bad for no.2" incident, Webber has not gone mental again, which suggests to me that he knows he has equal treatment. Sigh...

So, since Massa has not been vocal about it either, does that suggest to your that he knows he has equal treatment too? And he fact that Massa has signed again with Ferrari means that he does not believe he is number 2?

Both Webber and Massa have been asked by their teams to support their teammates in the recent past, and I'd say that 1) their respective teams were entitled to ask their drivers to do what the team thought was best, and 2) that results seem to support the idea that their respective teams were right.

Having said that, I fully understad why Massa and Webber supporters dislike this situation, and why people in general would prefer to see a closer battle between teammates.


Massa need not be vocal, its written all over his face! :lol:
Massa has openly supported Alonso while Webber publicy scoffed at the idea of supporting his teammate even towards the last part of the season (even he would have even asked by the team).
That's the difference between driving for Ferrari & Red Bull & I guess that's one of the reasons why Webber has chosen to stay with RBR for 2013.
You can imagine what would have happen to Webber if he behaves that way at Ferrari with Alonso as his teammate. x(

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:23 am 
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A2jdl wrote:
It's no surprise that the number one gets the best bits. Would be better if CH was honest about it


that is stupid.... Vettel's car breaks down as much as Webbers


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:10 am 
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It's common knowledge that Red Bull give that car better parts, they put a Vettel in it.

*hides*


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:42 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
It's common knowledge that Red Bull give that car better parts, they put a Vettel in it.

*hides*


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:53 am 
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specdecible wrote:
Jinx wrote:
oh my dear lord... so when Vettel's alternator failed a couple of times, he was given better parts?

Just to be clear the alternator is part of the engine which is supplied by Renault not Red Bull.

yes I know, but he didn't say any specific parts and I was trying to say that parts are parts, they can't possibly know which ones work like Kryptonite and which ones work like magic. He was trying to justify his team's strategies and saying others do that too but using the parts analogy was wrong. He could have said they had to ask Webber to pit in order for Seb to gain that place. But even then, Webber was leading at the beginning of the season and this is testimony that they do have equal treatment until such time that someone is no longer in contention and then they back the contender. This is normal...and I dun think RBR has been shy about saying such things...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:06 am 
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santa baby wrote:
morgana wrote:
Jinx wrote:
oh my dear lord... so when Vettel's alternator failed a couple of times, he was given better parts? so when Vettel's fuel pump had issues, he was given better parts? I know Webber had some Kers and maybe even alternator issues but this kind of statement appears that SD is just trying to deflect from the unsporting behavior they practiced and the lack of ultimate success under his leadership. If Webber believed he was no.2, he would be outta the team and joining Ferrari because he'd rather help his mate Fernando win than Vettel as clearly seen in over a number of GPs now. And since that "not bad for no.2" incident, Webber has not gone mental again, which suggests to me that he knows he has equal treatment. Sigh...

So, since Massa has not been vocal about it either, does that suggest to your that he knows he has equal treatment too? And he fact that Massa has signed again with Ferrari means that he does not believe he is number 2?

Both Webber and Massa have been asked by their teams to support their teammates in the recent past, and I'd say that 1) their respective teams were entitled to ask their drivers to do what the team thought was best, and 2) that results seem to support the idea that their respective teams were right.

Having said that, I fully understad why Massa and Webber supporters dislike this situation, and why people in general would prefer to see a closer battle between teammates.


Massa need not be vocal, its written all over his face! :lol:
Massa has openly supported Alonso while Webber publicy scoffed at the idea of supporting his teammate even towards the last part of the season (even he would have even asked by the team).
That's the difference between driving for Ferrari & Red Bull & I guess that's one of the reasons why Webber has chosen to stay with RBR for 2013.
You can imagine what would have happen to Webber if he behaves that way at Ferrari with Alonso as his teammate. x(


to be fair, Massa was under-performing the first half of the season while Alonso was leading, so it was only right to support Alonso. I don't disagree with Ferrari's strategy there...just very unsporting for the Austin GP incident is all... I also disagree that Luca thinks that other teams also do it like that but quietly. I dun think this is true. A real indication is that this year, Webber was re-signed very early in the season, because he was leading. The team knew he could be whisked away to Ferrari if he won the WDC. They didn't want to risk that, so they knew he had a real shot of the WDC. This tells me they do give equal treatment. And it was afterwards that Webber lost his lead etc. So it had nothing to do with being clear no.1 or 2 and it is only in effect after one is out of contention, which is also the most logical thing to do. I feel that Luca has no right to talk about other teams that way.

Anyway, I just think it would have been more correct for Massa to give way to Alonso on track, but not give up 5 positions...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:05 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
It's common knowledge that Red Bull give that car better parts, they put a Vettel in it.

*hides*


:thumbup: :thumbup: :nod:


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