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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:05 pm 
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I'm quite young (in my 20s) so I don't hold that passion for Ferrari that lots of older people do. However I don't relate to teams, I'm not a team, I'm a person and so I support drivers. I don't care what team wins and I think the importance of the WDC supports my thoughts, no one cares about what team wins apart from sponsors. I wouldn't care if Ferrari turnipped off, in fact I hate how they clearly always base their team around one drive. The only time I liked Ferrari was when Kimi and Massa were in the team because they were treated fairly. Now Massa might not be the driver he once was and Alonso clearly beat him, however when you have a team so focused around one driver I'm sure that played against him. Alonso looked rather mediocre towards the end of the year when Massa was gaining in confidence.


I just don't understand when I constantly hear on TV "F1 would be nothing without so and so team"..... like yeah it would, it has the same rules, drivers and would be fine. The only problem F1 has is when one team dominates, we need more teams and for F1 to be cheaper. Right now the problem is the big teams spending so much on down force...... any one can make a car fast in a straight line, however it's the aero stuff that splits the teams. Make the cars fast but with less grip like the good old days when it was about the driver and not the car.


I just think it's thanx to teams like Ferrari to why only like 4 drivers can ever win in one year.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:11 pm 
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Ferrari were there from day one... That is why F1 wouldn't be the same without them.

Try a reasoned argument where you don't resort to swearing it cheapens any point you may have

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:22 pm 
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The value of Formula 1 amounted in $$$$$$ would be substantually less without Ferrari.


Last edited by Herbalist on Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:46 pm 
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Personally I wouldn't really notice they weren't there. They havent exactly been a stand out team in a while now.

They would be no more missed than Williams, McLaren, Sauber or any other long-standing team with the same name.

Not that Ferrari would ever go anywhere. Luca di Montezemolo is generally completely full of hot air when he starts blabbing to the press about F1. A bit like Marko in that respect.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:57 pm 
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I also cannot understand the Ferrari mystique, why would any driver want to drive for them I don't know Ferrari's own words the team is bigger than any driver, they employ no1 drivers. So to me the no2 cannot win only when no1 cannot and sometimes when no1 wins it's a fixed win either on or off track.
If I were a racing driver I would want every one of my wins to be my win not gifted in any way and I wouldn't also like to gift a win if I were in front either.

My lifes principles are not about money but happiness and the thought that everything I am or own I have worked fairly for I enjoy my life that way, much is not always more I find.

There have been times like when Vettel won his first championship that if Red Bull had gone behind Mark as Ferrari would have as he was in front then they would have lost that championship no one thought Vettel had a chance certainly not Ferrari they were too busy watching Mark and missed Vettel, I thought is was very amusing.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:28 pm 
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kimandsally wrote:
I also cannot understand the Ferrari mystique, why would any driver want to drive for them I don't know Ferrari's own words the team is bigger than any driver, they employ no1 drivers. So to me the no2 cannot win only when no1 cannot and sometimes when no1 wins it's a fixed win either on or off track.
If I were a racing driver I would want every one of my wins to be my win not gifted in any way and I wouldn't also like to gift a win if I were in front either.

My lifes principles are not about money but happiness and the thought that everything I am or own I have worked fairly for I enjoy my life that way, much is not always more I find.

There have been times like when Vettel won his first championship that if Red Bull had gone behind Mark as Ferrari would have as he was in front then they would have lost that championship no one thought Vettel had a chance certainly not Ferrari they were too busy watching Mark and missed Vettel, I thought is was very amusing.

You have to understand its a team sport there always has been and always will be no1 and 2 drivers to the teams at the top. Unlike your life it is all about money ! Remember only one driver can win each race and the WDC.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:50 pm 
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A2jdl wrote:
kimandsally wrote:
I also cannot understand the Ferrari mystique, why would any driver want to drive for them I don't know Ferrari's own words the team is bigger than any driver, they employ no1 drivers. So to me the no2 cannot win only when no1 cannot and sometimes when no1 wins it's a fixed win either on or off track.
If I were a racing driver I would want every one of my wins to be my win not gifted in any way and I wouldn't also like to gift a win if I were in front either.

My lifes principles are not about money but happiness and the thought that everything I am or own I have worked fairly for I enjoy my life that way, much is not always more I find.

There have been times like when Vettel won his first championship that if Red Bull had gone behind Mark as Ferrari would have as he was in front then they would have lost that championship no one thought Vettel had a chance certainly not Ferrari they were too busy watching Mark and missed Vettel, I thought is was very amusing.

You have to understand its a team sport there always has been and always will be no1 and 2 drivers to the teams at the top. Unlike your life it is all about money ! Remember only one driver can win each race and the WDC.


Mc Laren and Red Bull have won without team orders and would have lost if they had operated in the Ferrari way.
When I was head of a department which authorised sponsor deals 25 years ago I was instructed to only be seen to sponsor companies and people who operated in a genuine manner no underhanded tactics as they said, in those days they didn't sponsor F1 but a while after I left they did go into F1 Williams and Mc Laren over time both received a lot of money Ferrari were not considered because of the negative impact that company didn't want when fans get angry by boycotting their products.

I learned my priciples from that company and I live a happy life because of it, I'm certainly not well off because of various circumstances health wise but I am a happy person knowing I have been fair and the right people have always got their rewards.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:59 pm 
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kimandsally wrote:
A2jdl wrote:
kimandsally wrote:
I also cannot understand the Ferrari mystique, why would any driver want to drive for them I don't know Ferrari's own words the team is bigger than any driver, they employ no1 drivers. So to me the no2 cannot win only when no1 cannot and sometimes when no1 wins it's a fixed win either on or off track.
If I were a racing driver I would want every one of my wins to be my win not gifted in any way and I wouldn't also like to gift a win if I were in front either.

My lifes principles are not about money but happiness and the thought that everything I am or own I have worked fairly for I enjoy my life that way, much is not always more I find.

There have been times like when Vettel won his first championship that if Red Bull had gone behind Mark as Ferrari would have as he was in front then they would have lost that championship no one thought Vettel had a chance certainly not Ferrari they were too busy watching Mark and missed Vettel, I thought is was very amusing.

You have to understand its a team sport there always has been and always will be no1 and 2 drivers to the teams at the top. Unlike your life it is all about money ! Remember only one driver can win each race and the WDC.


Mc Laren and Red Bull have won without team orders and would have lost if they had operated in the Ferrari way.
When I was head of a department which authorised sponsor deals 25 years ago I was instructed to only be seen to sponsor companies and people who operated in a genuine manner no underhanded tactics as they said, in those days they didn't sponsor F1 but a while after I left they did go into F1 Williams and Mc Laren over time both received a lot of money Ferrari were not considered because of the negative impact that company didn't want when fans get angry by boycotting their products.

I learned my priciples from that company and I live a happy life because of it, I'm certainly not well off because of various circumstances health wise but I am a happy person knowing I have been fair and the right people have always got their rewards.

Red bull have team orders. And mclaren used to under RD. under MW they don't have not won anything
And lost their best driver because of it. It really does make sense to have No1 and 2 status.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:46 am 
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There are plenty of reasons to dislike Ferrari but basing their team around one drive shouldn't be one of them. Almost all the teams do this, it is just that Ferrari make the least effort to hide it.

I wouldn't particularly miss them or any other team if they left F1. If it was Sauber, Marussia, Caterham and HRT jostling at the front instead of McLaren, RB, Ferrari etc I don't think the entertainment, interest level or product would suffer in the slightest.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:51 am 
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The Germans were there long before the Italians, but Ferrari drove engine dev for a very long time, and their commitment to the sport is unrivaled. Study the history of Grand Prix racing mate, the answer to your question becomes obvious.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:59 am 
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kimandsally wrote:
I also cannot understand the Ferrari mystique


That's the magic word, "mystique". Yes, Ferrari have been involved in Formula One since it was restarted after WW2. And yes, Ferrari have been very active in many ventures, that promote their name and create a fake aura. Let's face it, Ferrari have a formidable public relations department that continually repeat the same mantra over and over, hoping that eventually everyone will start to believe them. Ferrari want everyone to believe that they are the ultimate goal, the peak of the mountain, the apex of achievement.

But on purely race terms, they are just another team. And for anyone invoilved in racing, they strive for a good paycheck and a winning combination. Engineers, drivers, and mechanics all migrate towards the biggest paycheck and most promising car and team.

The funniest part is that Ferrari relies more on Formula One than Formula One relies on Ferrari. Unlike other auto manufacturers Ferrari do not advertise, they rely on the mystique from their racing to sell their road cars.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:15 am 
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Meh, I can imagine it just fine, but lots of fans cannot. Part of it is the mystique, but also, the Ferrari street cars are friggen manic and so when casual fans hook up with F1 and become diehards, I imagine it is natural for many to fall in with Ferrari. Too, being in the sport so long, they have lots of fans - whose kids take up the flag and so forth.

I am not a fan of teams, never have been. So when my original childhood F1 hero went there, I was ready to become a diehard red car fan - as long as it was tooling around with my hero encased. Then they fired him and that was it for me and Ferrari. Over the years you would think that grudge would die, and I think it would have, if they hadn't repeated the same damn thing with my next F1 hero. So now ... yeah, probably Vettel will go and I will have to once more cheer on the red car. Oh-yay...


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:07 am 
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The way I see it in terms of heritage etc. McLaren are on par with Ferrari with Williams with Sauber. So Personally I feel Luca seems to have really capitalised on the length of Ferraris involvement during Concorde extensions as well as increasing the Teams lure during Driver hirings and other business dealings. Also in recent years I find Ferrari to be rubbish before Schumacher came in..the same Schumacher they fired later on reducing their 'mystique' for me.
I guess I do not like Ferrari in general as an F1 team, Love their road cars though : D.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:25 am 
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Why did the likes of mclaren , williams , redbull etc. sign the concorde agreement knowing that ferrari would be receiving more money than them ?
Having ferrari is good for f1 cause in the end the money f1 recieves from sponsors , t.v rights, circuits will be a hell of a lot more with them than without them and i guess all the other teams and the head honchos realise that. Except Adam Parr.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:06 am 
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I can.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:08 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
kimandsally wrote:
I also cannot understand the Ferrari mystique


That's the magic word, "mystique". Yes, Ferrari have been involved in Formula One since it was restarted after WW2. And yes, Ferrari have been very active in many ventures, that promote their name and create a fake aura. Let's face it, Ferrari have a formidable public relations department that continually repeat the same mantra over and over, hoping that eventually everyone will start to believe them. Ferrari want everyone to believe that they are the ultimate goal, the peak of the mountain, the apex of achievement.

But on purely race terms, they are just another team. And for anyone invoilved in racing, they strive for a good paycheck and a winning combination. Engineers, drivers, and mechanics all migrate towards the biggest paycheck and most promising car and team.

The funniest part is that Ferrari relies more on Formula One than Formula One relies on Ferrari. Unlike other auto manufacturers Ferrari do not advertise, they rely on the mystique from their racing to sell their road cars.

rubbish, there was a certain ayrton senna who said he wanted to finish his career at Ferrari not foe the highest paycheck, deffinately not to win because Ferrari hadn't won a wcc in years but for the privledge and the honor. Like it or not racers don't go into f1 thinking i want to race for red bull etc they get in to race for the teams with history, vettel will go to Ferrari at some point. Why when red bull are the dominate car at the minute? And as for mystique yes there is a mystique there but to disregard ferraris commercial pull to the sport is ridiculous you need big engine manufacturers and teams would it still be the pinnacle of motorsport without merc and Ferrari and Renault engines? No so to say without having the best teams wouldn't matter is daft. I hope Honda come back as at least an engine supplier too more names the better as long as they are in for the long haul.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:12 am 
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Drivers come and go
Tracks come and go
Manufactures come and go
Teams come and go

Only Ferrrari remains

Its all about the history fella

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:15 am 
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The fact is that I couldn't imagine Ferrari without F1.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:17 am 
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stevefromstoke wrote:
Its all about the history fella

What is?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:56 am 
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Maky wrote:
the same Schumacher they fired later on reducing their 'mystique' for me.
I don't like the team very much, but I'm surprised to read you think they fired Schumacher. They didn't, he retired. In fact, a couple of races ago Jérôme D'Ambrosio, who was co-commentating on RTBF television on Sunday, mentioned that Ferrari had not liked the fact that Schumacher went to Mercedes for his comeback, instead of first talking to them... No, Ferrari didn't fire him, in fact he sat on the pitwall the following year.

Mystique is created. Why is there no mystique surrounding Team Lotus? Why go to court over a name with which neither team has a palpable link? Money. Pure and simple.

potter84 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
kimandsally wrote:
I also cannot understand the Ferrari mystique


That's the magic word, "mystique". Yes, Ferrari have been involved in Formula One since it was restarted after WW2. And yes, Ferrari have been very active in many ventures, that promote their name and create a fake aura. Let's face it, Ferrari have a formidable public relations department that continually repeat the same mantra over and over, hoping that eventually everyone will start to believe them. Ferrari want everyone to believe that they are the ultimate goal, the peak of the mountain, the apex of achievement.

But on purely race terms, they are just another team. And for anyone invoilved in racing, they strive for a good paycheck and a winning combination. Engineers, drivers, and mechanics all migrate towards the biggest paycheck and most promising car and team.

The funniest part is that Ferrari relies more on Formula One than Formula One relies on Ferrari. Unlike other auto manufacturers Ferrari do not advertise, they rely on the mystique from their racing to sell their road cars.

rubbish, there was a certain ayrton senna who said he wanted to finish his career at Ferrari not foe the highest paycheck, deffinately not to win because Ferrari hadn't won a wcc in years but for the privledge and the honor. Like it or not racers don't go into f1 thinking i want to race for red bull etc they get in to race for the teams with history, vettel will go to Ferrari at some point. Why when red bull are the dominate car at the minute? And as for mystique yes there is a mystique there but to disregard ferraris commercial pull to the sport is ridiculous you need big engine manufacturers and teams would it still be the pinnacle of motorsport without merc and Ferrari and Renault engines? No so to say without having the best teams wouldn't matter is daft. I hope Honda come back as at least an engine supplier too more names the better as long as they are in for the long haul.
Think about it, Senna would have driven for the four big names in F1: Lotus, McLaren, Williams and Ferrari. Just as Schumacher didn't go to Minardi to face a real challenge, Senna went where the money was. Marlboro had a budget ready for when his two years with Williams would be over. (When he died, that budget was still there, and the next fastest driver was attracted: Schumacher.) Why did Senna need a monster budget from Marlboro if he was just going for the privilege and the honour?
Also, I find it remarkable that all four needed big sponsorship from tobacconists, including the team with the most "mystique".

Money, pure and simple.

Can anybody name a team that has threatened to pull out of F1 more than Ferrari? I can't. Drama queen, rather than a girl with "mystique".

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:13 am 
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For me, growing up watching F1 from 1992 onwards, Ferrari, while a recognised name simple didn't have any further importance to me. Names like Lotus, Lamborghini and McLaren all had the same resonance to me.

My first memories of Ferrari are Ivan Capelli struggling horribly in the F92A. Not of some glorious romantic entity. The politics that surround the team and the almost favourable attitude from the powers that be strikes me as horribly vulgar and anti-sporting.

Nonetheless I respect what they can add in terms of gravitas and branding, yet Formula One without Ferrari would still be very much Formula One. If anything, as a sporting spectacle it would be refreshing to see how it would be without the hanging-on politics of the Scuderia.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:13 am 
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They are the most dirty team in the paddock as well. I wouldn't miss them.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:31 am 
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For a start, there would only be half the number of posts on here.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:32 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
kimandsally wrote:
I also cannot understand the Ferrari mystique


That's the magic word, "mystique". Yes, Ferrari have been involved in Formula One since it was restarted after WW2. And yes, Ferrari have been very active in many ventures, that promote their name and create a fake aura. Let's face it, Ferrari have a formidable public relations department that continually repeat the same mantra over and over, hoping that eventually everyone will start to believe them. Ferrari want everyone to believe that they are the ultimate goal, the peak of the mountain, the apex of achievement.

But on purely race terms, they are just another team. And for anyone invoilved in racing, they strive for a good paycheck and a winning combination. Engineers, drivers, and mechanics all migrate towards the biggest paycheck and most promising car and team.

The funniest part is that Ferrari relies more on Formula One than Formula One relies on Ferrari. Unlike other auto manufacturers Ferrari do not advertise, they rely on the mystique from their racing to sell their road cars.


Of course Ferrari advertises. What would you call this?

Image

The answer is really plain and simple: Formula 1 would be worth less without Ferrari, just as Formula 1 would be worth less without McLaren. It's just that Ferrari is worth more than any other team.
Ferrari and Formula 1 have a mutual need for each other. I don't understand why it's such a pain for some people to admit that. It's obivous that they could be excist without each other, but both would be worth much less. It should be in the interest of everyone to have Ferrari in Formula 1.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:29 pm 
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I can't stand all this pretentious rubbish that surrounds Ferrari. It's the perfect demonstration of the power of a brand. It's the same reason why people queue up to buy Apple products at inflated prices when they could get something very similar for a lower price with a different logo on it. Ferrari as a team is no more special than any of the others, but clever marketing and relentless promotion of the brand has led to large numbers of people believing that they are. A lot of the nonsense that Luca Montezemolo spouts to the press is part of that. After all, it is his job to make Ferrari successful and given that their branding is a vital part of their business model it is essential that he continues to perpetuate the myth that there is some sort of mystical quality surrounding Ferrari and their cars.

F1 would be fine without Ferrari. Of course I would be saddened to see them leave (not that I ever think they will) because of their tremendous contribution to the sport over the years but no more so than if McLaren or Williams went under.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:53 pm 
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potter84 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
kimandsally wrote:
I also cannot understand the Ferrari mystique


That's the magic word, "mystique". Yes, Ferrari have been involved in Formula One since it was restarted after WW2. And yes, Ferrari have been very active in many ventures, that promote their name and create a fake aura. Let's face it, Ferrari have a formidable public relations department that continually repeat the same mantra over and over, hoping that eventually everyone will start to believe them. Ferrari want everyone to believe that they are the ultimate goal, the peak of the mountain, the apex of achievement.

But on purely race terms, they are just another team. And for anyone invoilved in racing, they strive for a good paycheck and a winning combination. Engineers, drivers, and mechanics all migrate towards the biggest paycheck and most promising car and team.

The funniest part is that Ferrari relies more on Formula One than Formula One relies on Ferrari. Unlike other auto manufacturers Ferrari do not advertise, they rely on the mystique from their racing to sell their road cars.

rubbish, there was a certain ayrton senna who said he wanted to finish his career at Ferrari not foe the highest paycheck, deffinately not to win because Ferrari hadn't won a wcc in years but for the privledge and the honor. Like it or not racers don't go into f1 thinking i want to race for red bull etc they get in to race for the teams with history, vettel will go to Ferrari at some point. Why when red bull are the dominate car at the minute? And as for mystique yes there is a mystique there but to disregard ferraris commercial pull to the sport is ridiculous you need big engine manufacturers and teams would it still be the pinnacle of motorsport without merc and Ferrari and Renault engines? No so to say without having the best teams wouldn't matter is daft. I hope Honda come back as at least an engine supplier too more names the better as long as they are in for the long haul.

also a certain A Newey said recently ...designers like drivers all want to work to Ferrari..... could see him and Seb going together.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:50 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Maky wrote:
the same Schumacher they fired later on reducing their 'mystique' for me.
I don't like the team very much, but I'm surprised to read you think they fired Schumacher. They didn't, he retired. In fact, a couple of races ago Jérôme D'Ambrosio, who was co-commentating on RTBF television on Sunday, mentioned that Ferrari had not liked the fact that Schumacher went to Mercedes for his comeback, instead of first talking to them... No, Ferrari didn't fire him, in fact he sat on the pitwall the following year.

Mystique is created. Why is there no mystique surrounding Team Lotus? Why go to court over a name with which neither team has a palpable link? Money. Pure and simple.

potter84 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
kimandsally wrote:
I also cannot understand the Ferrari mystique


That's the magic word, "mystique". Yes, Ferrari have been involved in Formula One since it was restarted after WW2. And yes, Ferrari have been very active in many ventures, that promote their name and create a fake aura. Let's face it, Ferrari have a formidable public relations department that continually repeat the same mantra over and over, hoping that eventually everyone will start to believe them. Ferrari want everyone to believe that they are the ultimate goal, the peak of the mountain, the apex of achievement.

But on purely race terms, they are just another team. And for anyone invoilved in racing, they strive for a good paycheck and a winning combination. Engineers, drivers, and mechanics all migrate towards the biggest paycheck and most promising car and team.

The funniest part is that Ferrari relies more on Formula One than Formula One relies on Ferrari. Unlike other auto manufacturers Ferrari do not advertise, they rely on the mystique from their racing to sell their road cars.

rubbish, there was a certain ayrton senna who said he wanted to finish his career at Ferrari not foe the highest paycheck, deffinately not to win because Ferrari hadn't won a wcc in years but for the privledge and the honor. Like it or not racers don't go into f1 thinking i want to race for red bull etc they get in to race for the teams with history, vettel will go to Ferrari at some point. Why when red bull are the dominate car at the minute? And as for mystique yes there is a mystique there but to disregard ferraris commercial pull to the sport is ridiculous you need big engine manufacturers and teams would it still be the pinnacle of motorsport without merc and Ferrari and Renault engines? No so to say without having the best teams wouldn't matter is daft. I hope Honda come back as at least an engine supplier too more names the better as long as they are in for the long haul.
Think about it, Senna would have driven for the four big names in F1: Lotus, McLaren, Williams and Ferrari. Just as Schumacher didn't go to Minardi to face a real challenge, Senna went where the money was. Marlboro had a budget ready for when his two years with Williams would be over. (When he died, that budget was still there, and the next fastest driver was attracted: Schumacher.) Why did Senna need a monster budget from Marlboro if he was just going for the privilege and the honour?
Also, I find it remarkable that all four needed big sponsorship from tobacconists, including the team with the most "mystique".

Money, pure and simple.

Can anybody name a team that has threatened to pull out of F1 more than Ferrari? I can't. Drama queen, rather than a girl with "mystique".

it was understood regardless of ferraris standing he wanted to race for them before he retired he made no secret of that why did he not go to them instead of Williams probably because Williams had the much stronger package and he was competitive he wanted the records the titles. Just like brundle stated every driver wants to retire with a set of red overalls in their cupboard, i find it hard for people to understand the history and lure of Ferrari, i personally am not keen on them or their president but you cant deny that Ferrari is a big part of f1 and if Ferrari weren't in f1 the commercial product would suffer, agree same with McLaren as for Williams yes because of the history but no because they are an independent team with no roadcar and no longer have the commercial pull they did in the 80-90's hence having Maldonado etc now compared to prost, senna, rosberg, mansell etc back then.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:08 pm 
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I do often wonder around the time the re-negotiate the Concorde agreements how long Williams and McLaren have to stick around to warrant a larger share of the TV cash Bernie hands out.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:39 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Personally I wouldn't really notice they weren't there. They havent exactly been a stand out team in a while now.

They would be no more missed than Williams, McLaren, Sauber or any other long-standing team with the same name.

Not that Ferrari would ever go anywhere. Luca di Montezemolo is generally completely full of hot air when he starts blabbing to the press about F1. A bit like Marko in that respect.


Do you think the Premier League viewership would be the same if Arsenal and Liverpool are relegated, because they haven't been standout teams in the last million years?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:49 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Maky wrote:
the same Schumacher they fired later on reducing their 'mystique' for me.
I don't like the team very much, but I'm surprised to read you think they fired Schumacher. They didn't, he retired. In fact, a couple of races ago Jérôme D'Ambrosio, who was co-commentating on RTBF television on Sunday, mentioned that Ferrari had not liked the fact that Schumacher went to Mercedes for his comeback, instead of first talking to them... No, Ferrari didn't fire him, in fact he sat on the pitwall the following year.

Mystique is created. Why is there no mystique surrounding Team Lotus? Why go to court over a name with which neither team has a palpable link? Money. Pure and simple.

potter84 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
kimandsally wrote:
I also cannot understand the Ferrari mystique


That's the magic word, "mystique". Yes, Ferrari have been involved in Formula One since it was restarted after WW2. And yes, Ferrari have been very active in many ventures, that promote their name and create a fake aura. Let's face it, Ferrari have a formidable public relations department that continually repeat the same mantra over and over, hoping that eventually everyone will start to believe them. Ferrari want everyone to believe that they are the ultimate goal, the peak of the mountain, the apex of achievement.

But on purely race terms, they are just another team. And for anyone invoilved in racing, they strive for a good paycheck and a winning combination. Engineers, drivers, and mechanics all migrate towards the biggest paycheck and most promising car and team.

The funniest part is that Ferrari relies more on Formula One than Formula One relies on Ferrari. Unlike other auto manufacturers Ferrari do not advertise, they rely on the mystique from their racing to sell their road cars.

rubbish, there was a certain ayrton senna who said he wanted to finish his career at Ferrari not foe the highest paycheck, deffinately not to win because Ferrari hadn't won a wcc in years but for the privledge and the honor. Like it or not racers don't go into f1 thinking i want to race for red bull etc they get in to race for the teams with history, vettel will go to Ferrari at some point. Why when red bull are the dominate car at the minute? And as for mystique yes there is a mystique there but to disregard ferraris commercial pull to the sport is ridiculous you need big engine manufacturers and teams would it still be the pinnacle of motorsport without merc and Ferrari and Renault engines? No so to say without having the best teams wouldn't matter is daft. I hope Honda come back as at least an engine supplier too more names the better as long as they are in for the long haul.
Think about it, Senna would have driven for the four big names in F1: Lotus, McLaren, Williams and Ferrari. Just as Schumacher didn't go to Minardi to face a real challenge, Senna went where the money was. Marlboro had a budget ready for when his two years with Williams would be over. (When he died, that budget was still there, and the next fastest driver was attracted: Schumacher.) Why did Senna need a monster budget from Marlboro if he was just going for the privilege and the honour?
Also, I find it remarkable that all four needed big sponsorship from tobacconists, including the team with the most "mystique".

Money, pure and simple.

Can anybody name a team that has threatened to pull out of F1 more than Ferrari? I can't. Drama queen, rather than a girl with "mystique".



Can anybody name a team that has been in F1 since 1950? Can anybody name a team that manufactures road cars to fund its racing team, rather than the other way around?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Seanie wrote:
I do often wonder around the time the re-negotiate the Concorde agreements how long Williams and McLaren have to stick around to warrant a larger share of the TV cash Bernie hands out.


The thing is they all know that just the name Ferrari brings a lot of money for all of them. There is no way around it. If Ferrari does leave for alternate series, lot of current teams will go with them simply because F1 without Ferrari is just a sinking ship. Like it or not, that is the fact and that is why even after criticism from Ferrari camp about Bernie, he still keeps saying that Ferrari is most important team for him and for F1. That is simply because it is fact.
Ferrari might have threatened to quit F1, actually they havent, they have objected to the direction in which sport is headed. But they are still in F1. Others have actually left. That is the difference between Ferrari and Toyota, Honda or any other team on the grid.
Williams is just a shadow of past self, current lotus has nothing to do with the old legendary lotus. Renault is now just engine supplier, but at least they count as one of the most important entity in F1 and for that matter entire motorsports industry. McLaren is the only other team that has lasted long enough, but even they dont have entirely home setup like Ferrari has which include everything from engine to chassis design in house. All other manufacturers who entered factory teams in past have failed to stay alive in this sport. Ferrari have managed this since last century. That is why they have this much clout of F1 in general. And other team support them because they know that Ferrari has team's best interest in mind and not FOM or FIA's. This in turn means even though Ferrari bags most money, the other teams earn more than they would usually without Ferrari or by going against Ferrari in the near future as far as future of F1 is concerned.
Wise men know the glory days come and go and come back again, but longevity matters. And that is what earns Ferrari its name and aura. This is why you see likes of Ferrari and McLaren actually talking to each other during the negotiating with FOM. They know better than the mental picture of die hard enemies that most fans have in their mind about these teams. Its a business and Ferrari are prime property.


Last edited by funkymonkey on Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Can anyone remember Bernie saying i don't care what teams are in it, ... as long as Ferrari are !


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:55 pm 
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A2jdl wrote:
Can anyone remember Bernie saying i don't care what teams are in it, ... as long as Ferrari are !

that's because at the end of the day he is a business man and knows that Ferrari are good for business red bull may have dominated for 3-4 years but they could pull at anytime they wish Ferrari have the roadcar division soley for f1 which has been mentioned they are in it and wont go anywhere unless left no other option for the good of Ferrari or motorsport in general.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:05 pm 
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VENEKOR wrote:
I'm quite young (in my 20s) so I don't hold that passion for Ferrari that lots of older people do. However I don't relate to teams, I'm not a team, I'm a person and so I support drivers. I don't care what team wins and I think the importance of the WDC supports my thoughts, no one cares about what team wins apart from sponsors. I wouldn't care if Ferrari turnipped off, in fact I hate how they clearly always base their team around one drive. The only time I liked Ferrari was when Kimi and Massa were in the team because they were treated fairly. Now Massa might not be the driver he once was and Alonso clearly beat him, however when you have a team so focused around one driver I'm sure that played against him. Alonso looked rather mediocre towards the end of the year when Massa was gaining in confidence.


I just don't understand when I constantly hear on TV "F1 would be nothing without so and so team"..... like yeah it would, it has the same rules, drivers and would be fine. The only problem F1 has is when one team dominates, we need more teams and for F1 to be cheaper. Right now the problem is the big teams spending so much on down force...... any one can make a car fast in a straight line, however it's the aero stuff that splits the teams. Make the cars fast but with less grip like the good old days when it was about the driver and not the car.


I just think it's thanx to teams like Ferrari to why only like 4 drivers can ever win in one year.

"I'm a person and so I support drivers." OK there.

In my experience on F1 and football (soccer) sites, the people who support individuals instead of teams are the most insufferable fanboys/girls of all. They usually insist that their favourites are paragons of virtue with no character flaws, who have never made mistakes in their entire lives, and are generally absolutely perfect in every regard.

Unless I'm mistaken, most of this forum's members have at least hit puberty- correct? And if that's the case, then you should be mature enough to know that your heroes are not superhuman, they are not infallible, they have made mistakes, and Formula 1 drivers in particular have enough personality flaws to make a psychiatrist drool. I currently like Alonso as a driver because I'm a Ferrari fan, but I definitely wouldn't want to know him personally. Same goes for Hamilton, Kimi, and almost all the others. They're great drivers, but that doesn't make them great people.

As for why F1 would be in trouble without Ferrari, it's pretty simple. Obviously this is a British site and the majority of posters are British, so it may come as a surprise to you that not many people outside the Isles or Home Countries or whatever are very interested in McLaren. :uhoh: If they went under, it wouldn't change anything. They have the legacy of Ayrton Senna, certainly, but McLaren is still a name that only people who actively follow F1 know. Goes without saying that nothing would change if Red Bull or Williams left the sport either.

Ferrari are the only team that has continuity going right back to pre-war racing, when, frankly, racing was actually interesting in and of itself. The Scuderia stretches all the way back to, and is inexorably linked with, names like Tazio Nuvolari, and races like the Targa Florio and Mille Miglia. McLaren and other teams can never have that. And, as you all know, even above their unsurpassed racing heritage, Ferrari build gorgeous sports cars, and even if some [funny] people argue that their cars aren't that great, what gives them prestige is the racing victories they're sold to fund. Without Ferrari, the majority of the world has no reason to tune in, seeing as the races themselves usually aren't scintillating to say the least.

Also, not really related, but I love it when people pump up poor reasonng, rhetoric and opinion with phrases like "total nonsense," "absolute tosh, "complete rubbish," etc. to try and sound authoritative. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:12 pm 
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j man wrote:
I can't stand all this pretentious rubbish that surrounds Ferrari. It's the perfect demonstration of the power of a brand. It's the same reason why people queue up to buy Apple products at inflated prices when they could get something very similar for a lower price with a different logo on it. Ferrari as a team is no more special than any of the others, but clever marketing and relentless promotion of the brand has led to large numbers of people believing that they are. A lot of the nonsense that Luca Montezemolo spouts to the press is part of that. After all, it is his job to make Ferrari successful and given that their branding is a vital part of their business model it is essential that he continues to perpetuate the myth that there is some sort of mystical quality surrounding Ferrari and their cars.

F1 would be fine without Ferrari. Of course I would be saddened to see them leave (not that I ever think they will) because of their tremendous contribution to the sport over the years but no more so than if McLaren or Williams went under.

Sure, but Ferrari worked very hard to build their brand for about 80 years. Call it marketing, but this is great racing history behind it. Dozens of titles in most prestigious events like Le Mans and F1, the only team to complete in every Formula 1 season with their own engines. This is the only team that has threads like this every few months where people who try hard to prove that Ferrari is just another team. This actually helps to keep that myth alive. You must note that people don't think rational when they choose team or drivers to support. This is hype, but no other team spend 63 seasons to create their own hype.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:09 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
j man wrote:
I can't stand all this pretentious rubbish that surrounds Ferrari. It's the perfect demonstration of the power of a brand. It's the same reason why people queue up to buy Apple products at inflated prices when they could get something very similar for a lower price with a different logo on it. Ferrari as a team is no more special than any of the others, but clever marketing and relentless promotion of the brand has led to large numbers of people believing that they are. A lot of the nonsense that Luca Montezemolo spouts to the press is part of that. After all, it is his job to make Ferrari successful and given that their branding is a vital part of their business model it is essential that he continues to perpetuate the myth that there is some sort of mystical quality surrounding Ferrari and their cars.

F1 would be fine without Ferrari. Of course I would be saddened to see them leave (not that I ever think they will) because of their tremendous contribution to the sport over the years but no more so than if McLaren or Williams went under.

Sure, but Ferrari worked very hard to build their brand for about 80 years. Call it marketing, but this is great racing history behind it. Dozens of titles in most prestigious events like Le Mans and F1, the only team to complete in every Formula 1 season with their own engines. This is the only team that has threads like this every few months where people who try hard to prove that Ferrari is just another team. This actually helps to keep that myth alive. You must note that people don't think rational when they choose team or drivers to support. This is hype, but no other team spend 63 seasons to create their own hype.

I don't deny that Ferrari's racing heritage is FAR greater than any other team on the grid. What I object to is the idea that their rich history should mean they deserve special treatment over the other teams on the grid, or the idea that Luca likes to put forward that the sport would be massively diminished as a spectacle if Ferrari were to pull out.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:40 pm 
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Why shouldnt Luca do that? Its true. While in actuality it wouldn't be that bad, the public outcry and shock and PR nightmare that would come with Ferrari leaving would be ENORMOUS.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:13 pm 
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Ferrari are without question the most supported team in F1 and are huge for the sport in financial terms. I'm not saying the spectacle would diminish without them but the sport would suffer in all sorts of ways if they weren't there.

As for the whole, "I am a person and hence i support a driver" theory - don't really get that. F1 is a team sport and plenty of fans support a specific team and not drivers individually.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:37 pm 
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I suspect that some fans are mainly interested in the ‘here and now’ of F1 in which case Ferrari is possibly less important, but others are also interested in the more emotive and historical aspects of F1 where Ferrari might be a lot more significant.

Neither is necessarily right or wrong in my opinion, it just depends on how you view, and what you take from F1 as a fan.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:42 am 
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Addressing the OP's criticism of Ferrari focusing it's team around one driver, this is not a phenomenon limited to Ferrari. Lotus allowed Senna to veto Warwick joining the team in the 1980s. Williams allowed Prost to do the same to Senna for 1993. Kovalainen never put up much of a fight with Hamilton on the circuit like Button has done and that was when team orders were, officially at least, banned.

Even within Ferrari itself, Massa and Kimi got a fair crack at the title each season in my view, until they had to make a choice in the final part of the season, in 2007 and 2008. When Schumacher was there he dominated but he moved over for Irvine in Sepang in 1999. I think their philosophy is driven by doing what is needed to win rather than favouring a particular driver. If Massa starts spanking Alonso, he won't be asked to move over, just as he wasn't in 2008 when he got the better of Kimi.

Team orders themselves aren't limited to Ferrari, I hate having to go through this again but it has been brought up again. Others have already mentioned McLaren, but Patrick Head/Frank Williams were on record in Motorsport magazine's special on Williams a few months back as saying that Alan Jones was the No.1 in the team. When Reutemann didn't move over, it caused friction. They also said that Damon Hill was held back at times from Alain Prost in the 1993 season.

I could imagine an F1 without Ferrari...I would be sad to see them go, but no more sad than to see McLaren or Williams go. I do however, dislike the notion of a unique negativity surrounding Ferrari being perpetuated when in fact it is merely more infamous because Ferrari have been more successful than any of the other teams.

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