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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Aside from Vettel, simply who - if any - do you think would have have won the WDC this year in Vettel's place at Red Bull?

I'll need to give this one a think through and post my opinion later.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:29 pm 
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IMO you don't need to imagine anybody replacing the one you put in Vettel's shoes, i.e. if you imagine e.g. Alonso at Red Bull, he would have been competing against himself. In other words the competition stays exactly the same as Vettel faced. Or you can put Vettel in his replacement's car.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:34 pm 
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Alonso, Hamilton, Hulkenberg

Maybe Button, Raikkonen.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:56 pm 
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Too hard to say because you can never say how a driver will perform in different scenarios, probably kimi and Hamilton though if push came to shove. I wouldn't say Alonso because i don't think the set up of red bull as a whole would suit him team wise and in a way i think red bull are too good in qualifying which would negate where Alonso really shone this yet which in my view were the starts, its where he made a lot of places.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:01 pm 
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Kind of impossible to answer really, too many variables. It was an incredible team effort - would the team work as hard with someone else? Would a different driver be able to execute the strategies? What about the pressure? It comes down to who can perform their best, and is their best enough? The second depends on what everyone else does, so its impossible to answer.

I think Kimi and Nico Rosberg would thrive in the RBR environment, and the team would thrive with them. And there's always Mark. Plenty of shoulda, coulda, woulda there.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:09 pm 
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No way to know


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Hard to provide a sincere answer without playing back the possible scenarios in each race and the build-up to it.

If only driving skills mattered, then I could argue that Alonso and Kimi would have also won in the Red Bull. But there are many other skills required and other variables involved too.

Who's to say if Red Bull would have been this strong with a driver who constantly undermines his team to increase his self-worth?

Perhaps, with a team which is totally supportive and fully behind him and no intimidation, even Massa might have won it.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Karthikeyan.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:29 pm 
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The answer is certainly not as obvious as it may seem. The Red Bull's characteristics may not - in fact almost certainly will not - suit all driving styles. It is designed for high downforce with great cornering but is comparatively poor in straight line speed. Not everyone can make optimal use of those conditions.

I am assuming that the hypothetical driver would have taken Vettel's place and raced with Webber as teammate. With that scenario IMO (and I stress that this is IMO only), Alonso would very likely have also won the WDC in the RB8. Raikkonen probably would have made it too, but I think the RB8 would have suited his style a lot less. Button would have taken a bit longer to get used to it and would have fallen just short. Likewise, the RB8 would not have suited Hamilton and he would have worn its tyres out rather sooner than Vettel and so missed the WDC.

Others like The Hulk, Rosberg, Massa (unhindered) and maybe Perez would have won a few races but fallen well short of the WBC.

Of course, one major problem with answering this type of question is who would have taken the incoming driver's place in the other team. Assuming that it was Vettel, he would have been a WDC contender in the McLaren or Ferrari too and so the calculations are not simple.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:53 pm 
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None of the others.
They would have barely been further up mid season and wouldn't have won 4 in a row when they had the chance.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:59 pm 
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Any of the guys in the top 4 cars apart from perhaps Massa. Rosberg surely would have, Schumacher perhaps at Monaco.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:12 pm 
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joshb wrote:
None of the others.
They would have barely been further up mid season and wouldn't have won 4 in a row when they had the chance.


I believe that's a load of sh*t. Saying Kartekayan would have won in that car is just as unlikely as your statement.
Now one can only guess on this subject and my guess is:

Alonso,
Hamilton,
Kimi,
Massa,
Button,
Hulkenberg,
Perez,
Maldonado,
Grosjean,

Edit: Rosberg too.

All of them equally fast (and some faster) and alot of them not nearly as sloppy as Vettel. All respect to Vettel though.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Remember the OP asks about winning the WDC, not just races. Do you really think Hulk, RoGro, Pasta, or Perez could put up a title fight this year? I don't think any of them are title contenders yet, regardless of which car they are in.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:44 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Kind of impossible to answer really, too many variables. It was an incredible team effort - would the team work as hard with someone else? Would a different driver be able to execute the strategies? What about the pressure? It comes down to who can perform their best, and is their best enough? The second depends on what everyone else does, so its impossible to answer.

I think Kimi and Nico Rosberg would thrive in the RBR environment, and the team would thrive with them. And there's always Mark. Plenty of shoulda, coulda, woulda there.


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:51 pm 
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WDC - Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen
Race(s) - JB, Massa, Nico, Schumi, Grosjean, Checo, Hulk, Maldonado

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:55 pm 
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dannyjames8 wrote:
Alonso, Hamilton, Hulkenberg

Maybe Button, Raikkonen.


Based on what? The only time we have seen him up front and he flopped, made crucial mistakes. No evidence supports Hulkenberg could do it (Yet at least)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:15 pm 
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schumi7 wrote:
WDC - Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen
Race(s) - JB, Massa, Nico, Schumi, Grosjean, Checo, Hulk, Maldonado

Can't argue with that. I'd add RoGro to the race winners list though. Qualifying on pole gives you fewer things to crash into on the opening lap.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:35 pm 
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ashley313

I know the OP ment WDC.
But ok RoGro, Pastor, Hulkenberg and Perez might not be there just yet, but surely they would win races. One of them already did.
RoGro and Pastor has serious pace, all they need is to clean their racing and they are right up there. Of these four I rate Perez the lowest.

As a sidenote, I would like to see Vettel in this years Ferrari, Lotus or McLaren and see the result. It's not a dig at him thinking he would do poorly.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:54 pm 
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Definitely Alonso and Hamilton, and probably Raikkonen too. If Webber couldn't do it then I doubt the likes of Hulkenberg, Rosberg, Perez etc would be able to.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:55 pm 
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WDC - Defo: Lewis, Alonso. Both would have won by a bigger margin than Vettel in my opinion.

WDC - Probably : Kimi, Jenson,

Races: Rosberg, Hulky, Massa, Pastor and Perez

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:30 pm 
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alonso and kimi

however if vettel were in that ferrari he would of won the title anyway


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:57 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
alonso and kimi

however if vettel were in that ferrari he would of won the title anyway

lol

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:10 pm 
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not sure if joking or delusional

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:23 pm 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
No way to know


no fairy cakes sherlock


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Any of the guys in the top 4 cars apart from perhaps Massa. Rosberg surely would have, Schumacher perhaps at Monaco.

Kind of disagree. Webber wasn't really up when it counted in the same car, for example.

I think, only Alonso and Hamilton would have WDC in such car.

But than, lets not forget that for a certain portion of the season Red Bull was not the best car anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:27 pm 
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j man wrote:
Definitely Alonso and Hamilton, and probably Raikkonen too. If Webber couldn't do it then I doubt the likes of Hulkenberg, Rosberg, Perez etc would be able to.


Depends who gets more support from the team, I think Vettel always has enjoyed that bit extra than Webber as he is their #1. Also he hasn't had as bad luck with malfunctions. I think Webber can easily win in those cars if their roles were reversed.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:18 pm 
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I would have won myself.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:22 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
j man wrote:
Definitely Alonso and Hamilton, and probably Raikkonen too. If Webber couldn't do it then I doubt the likes of Hulkenberg, Rosberg, Perez etc would be able to.


Depends who gets more support from the team, I think Vettel always has enjoyed that bit extra than Webber as he is their #1. Also he hasn't had as bad luck with malfunctions. I think Webber can easily win in those cars if their roles were reversed.

Although Vettel is nominally the team's #1, I don't think he gets particularly special treatment over his team mate in the way Alonso gets at Ferrari. Webber had a fair crack at the title this year and in 2010 and lets not forget he even had the edge over Vettel in the first half of the season. Ultimately I think he fell short simply because he is not consistent enough over the course of a season rather than because he didn't get the required support from the team.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:25 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
joshb wrote:
None of the others.
They would have barely been further up mid season and wouldn't have won 4 in a row when they had the chance.


I believe that's a load of sh*t....


Why is it a load of sh***? Alonso didn't produce under pressure either in 2010 (went in with a 15 point lead and ultimately stopped by Petrov) or 2012 (Massa became the faster/more consistent driver over the course of the final races). Hamilton perhaps, but it is questionable whether or not he would have been able to manage the tyres on the RB8 as they were more difficult to deal with than some of the other top cars. If he was able to get a handle on that, I would still question his ability to rally the team around him (an ability he definitely has, but has not shown of late). Lewis seems to have distanced himself from a problematic team situation rather than gathering and uniting them behind him. So I would not be able to give him a vote of confidence on the WDC in 2012 in the RB8.

Although I think Kimi Raikkonen and Nico Rosberg could have done it in theory, neither appears to work with the team in the same way Sebastian does, so if that was a factor, they might not be able to pull it off.

Button and Webber are possibilities, but Webber rather showed he may have had problems with the RB8 beyond those specific to his car and Button tends to drift backward when the car is difficult, based on his style, so I don't think they would have done it.

As for the rookies and young set, you can't just dump them into RBR and hope they would suddenly unite the team behind them and pull off the WDC win. It is a nice fantasy, but the reality would be that Webber would be in the lead the entire season.

In addition, the RB8 was developed around Seb's style - so it is likely that all drivers would have a hell of a time trying to match what he was able to do in combination with the car (except those with a very similar style). Now if the question is who would win if the RB8 had been developed around their style, well that is an even more impossible questions because you have to take into consideration if the crew and team could design, produce and set up a car that would work as well for other drivers. Would it remain at least as reliable as it was with the new configuration? Too many unanswered questions.

I think joshb's comment was pretty close to the mark. Another good answer is "who knows?"


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:48 pm 
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It's a very big if to be honest. I would imagine that Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi would have had a serious push at the title. Whether they would have won it in the season we had is a mystery.

You have to take into consideration that you can't simply cut and paste drivers into different teams. Red Bull may have a different style to engineering and operating than Lotus, or Ferrari, and that may not suit a certain driver as well as it did Vettel. Or on the flip side, the drivers could work better with RB than Vettel, and wrapped up the title sooner.

Drivers have different styles. If it was a different driver, maybe they could have accidentely led the team down a development dead end. Like Button this season, or Vettel in China when he went against the teams in the exhaust/sidepod issue. That could have happened and the car could have been a dud. Or, the opposite could have happened and the car could have become faster, quicker.


Who Knows.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:11 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Kind of impossible to answer really, too many variables. It was an incredible team effort - would the team work as hard with someone else? Would a different driver be able to execute the strategies? What about the pressure? It comes down to who can perform their best, and is their best enough? The second depends on what everyone else does, so its impossible to answer.

I think Kimi and Nico Rosberg would thrive in the RBR environment, and the team would thrive with them. And there's always Mark. Plenty of shoulda, coulda, woulda there.

This. I think what's shaped Vettel as the driver he is, more than his pace, more than his ability to run away or make the strategies to work, is his ability to get the job done under pressure. Time and time again he does exactly what his detractors don't want him to do, but that's what's made him a 3 time world champion.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:33 pm 
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That's why I said Vettel. Others may have done better in the early stages, as Webber showed by being ahead, but when it comes down to the crunch at the back end of a season, in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 he gets a higher proportion of his points in the last third of the year than in the first 1/3 or 2nd 1/3 of the season.
No-one won 2 in a row this year but he does... and then wins 2 more immediately after that! All at the bottle end of the year when the pressure is at its highest.
If you want to be in with a shout of a title with 6 or 7 races left, you would put your house and your life savings on Vettel- it's like printing money

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:44 pm 
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Good signs here, Vettel is starting to get the credits he deserves.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:51 pm 
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I do think he is massively good at coping with pressure, but he's not indefatigable. I don't think quali in Brazil was a reflection of the RB8 performance, but a slight bow to the immense pressure on the young man's shoulders. His recovery drive in the race proves that crack in the armor might have only been temporary, but man did he look tired for weeks after that. His visage aged 5 years from the start of the Abu Dhabi weekend. His whole demeanor at the post-season events was that of someone who was badly in need of a break. The experience of having gone through that kind of fight could help him in future battles, but it takes a lot out of you, and there's no telling if he has enough left in the tank to mount that kind of challenge and defense again. I have faith that he can because I believe in him no matter what, but practically speaking - its an unknown.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:01 am 
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I think Kimi would have thrived and won the championships. He was looking to maximize the car at every race, and if he had done that with the red bull, he would have won the championship despite not qualifying great.

Alonso, I am not sure. If Alonso was in the RBR and was involved in a bun fight with somebody for the championships, he would almost certainly demand webber move over which is not going to happen with somebody with a combative personality as webber's. Ferrari suits him best because they treat him like a king even when he publicly disses his team.

I would have said hamilton, for he looked strong this year. He had reliability issues and all that, but the mental side of things, I am still not sure. 2007 and 2008 he was not particularly great under pressure during the crunch stages of the championships, and then he never came close. Would be happy to be proved wrong in the future.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:27 am 
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phyz wrote:
schumi7 wrote:
WDC - Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen
Race(s) - JB, Massa, Nico, Schumi, Grosjean, Checo, Hulk, Maldonado

Can't argue with that. I'd add RoGro to the race winners list though. Qualifying on pole gives you fewer things to crash into on the opening lap.

RoGro is in the race winners list :P

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:33 am 
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Vettel is better in the tail end of the season than anyone I have ever seen. Remembering that he only just beat Alonso any driver that could have won the tittle could not be any worse than Vettel. That means for me Alonso could have done it. Raikkonen or Hamilton maybe but I am not sure they could have put the string of results together Vettel did.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:22 pm 
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Impossible to know. The way I think about these things is say Alonso had stayed at Renault in 2007, and a McLaren driver had won the title. Naturally most would think Alonso would win the title if he was in the McLaren, but we all know how that panned out.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:52 am 
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I would say Hamilton , Alonso, Schumacher, Raikkonen .
The others would have fared no better than Mark in my opinion


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:58 am 
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Writing about the title only, Alonso is an obvious choice. Hamilton as Red Bull were much sharper with their pit stops throughout the entire season rather than just half the season. Raikkonen too. All of these drivers could have won the title in this years Red Bull based on their performances in their other teams.

The factor that blurs the picture however, is this: performance against team mates. Hamilton for example, may have been able to take more points paired against Button than against Vettel. Alonso certainly would take more points from Massa than against Vettel. Massa is a competent driver, but not in the same class as Vettel at this stage in his career. Raikkonen was paired with a Grosjean that was very quick but whose form was patchy.

It's possible that if any of these drivers were paired with Vettel, they would have taken points from one another, leaving a clear run for a third driver from another team, much in the same way as the 1986 and 2007 championships.

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