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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:27 am 
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hittheapex wrote:
Writing about the title only, Alonso is an obvious choice. Hamilton as Red Bull were much sharper with their pit stops throughout the entire season rather than just half the season. Raikkonen too. All of these drivers could have won the title in this years Red Bull based on their performances in their other teams.

The factor that blurs the picture however, is this: performance against team mates. Hamilton for example, may have been able to take more points paired against Button than against Vettel. Alonso certainly would take more points from Massa than against Vettel. Massa is a competent driver, but not in the same class as Vettel at this stage in his career. Raikkonen was paired with a Grosjean that was very quick but whose form was patchy.

It's possible that if any of these drivers were paired with Vettel, they would have taken points from one another, leaving a clear run for a third driver from another team, much in the same way as the 1986 and 2007 championships.


This all assumes that another driver would have everything equal to what Vettel had on the year. Same relationship with his team, same degree of car development fitted to the driver's style, same relationships with the guiding body, same time constraints, same dedication, focus, determination, same work and fitness ethic, same reaction times and decisions (based on aging, experience), etc.

Nearly impossible. So I don't think the performance against a teammate is the factor blurring the picture, I think that there is no picture to blur unless you assume all that I have written would be exactly the same - and that is so improbable as to be impossible.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:20 am 
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None, not even Vettel.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:29 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
hittheapex wrote:
Writing about the title only, Alonso is an obvious choice. Hamilton as Red Bull were much sharper with their pit stops throughout the entire season rather than just half the season. Raikkonen too. All of these drivers could have won the title in this years Red Bull based on their performances in their other teams.

The factor that blurs the picture however, is this: performance against team mates. Hamilton for example, may have been able to take more points paired against Button than against Vettel. Alonso certainly would take more points from Massa than against Vettel. Massa is a competent driver, but not in the same class as Vettel at this stage in his career. Raikkonen was paired with a Grosjean that was very quick but whose form was patchy.

It's possible that if any of these drivers were paired with Vettel, they would have taken points from one another, leaving a clear run for a third driver from another team, much in the same way as the 1986 and 2007 championships.


This all assumes that another driver would have everything equal to what Vettel had on the year. Same relationship with his team, same degree of car development fitted to the driver's style, same relationships with the guiding body, same time constraints, same dedication, focus, determination, same work and fitness ethic, same reaction times and decisions (based on aging, experience), etc.

Nearly impossible. So I don't think the performance against a teammate is the factor blurring the picture, I think that there is no picture to blur unless you assume all that I have written would be exactly the same - and that is so improbable as to be impossible.


Yes, there is the final hypothetical of relationship with the team. But the whole thread is a hypothetical. For arguments sake, assuming that Vettel and all of the above joined Red Bull at the same time, I'd maintain my opinion. If you were to ask me "do you think Driver X could beat Vettel on his first season joining Red Bull?" I would be inclined to answer "no," for most of the reasons you gave. I do think however, that driver reaction times, and fitness are rather less affected by the team they work for because those will run into natural limits, however hard the teams will push them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:51 pm 
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Perilouscow wrote:
Karthikeyan.


:lol: :lol: :lol: Karthikeyan would have won the title with at least 3 races to spare.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:07 pm 
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Answer:

Image

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(Just joking of course).


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:58 am 
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Floppy_Boy wrote:
Impossible to know. The way I think about these things is say Alonso had stayed at Renault in 2007, and a McLaren driver had won the title. Naturally most would think Alonso would win the title if he was in the McLaren, but we all know how that panned out.



probably the best response to this question. Its not always what it looks like.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:28 am 
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Alain Prost, definately.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:39 am 
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Depends on who was in the OTHER Red Bull doesn't it? :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:15 am 
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Considering that when Jean eric vergne and Ricciardo both drove the red bull in young drivers test they smashed the field shows that anybody driving the redbull can do amazing times even total rookies.

If 2 total rookies can just jump into that car and in a a days testing can start smashing records than any of the current F1 drivers would easily have won in the redbull.

The only thing that would cause them to lose is themselves or a redbull team mate.

Hamilton made some interesting comments recently on how Vettel missed apexes and still put the thing on Pole.
Just shows how dam fast the redbull car is.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:43 am 
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Covalent wrote:
the competition stays exactly the same as Vettel faced. Or you can put Vettel in his replacement's car.

Webber :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:17 am 
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schumi7 wrote:
phyz wrote:
schumi7 wrote:
WDC - Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen
Race(s) - JB, Massa, Nico, Schumi, Grosjean, Checo, Hulk, Maldonado

Can't argue with that. I'd add RoGro to the race winners list though. Qualifying on pole gives you fewer things to crash into on the opening lap.

RoGro is in the race winners list :P

I'm going blind obviously... :lol: :blush:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:56 am 
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Ricciardo

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:17 pm 
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Peter77 wrote:
Considering that when Jean eric vergne and Ricciardo both drove the red bull in young drivers test they smashed the field shows that anybody driving the redbull can do amazing times even total rookies.

If 2 total rookies can just jump into that car and in a a days testing can start smashing records than any of the current F1 drivers would easily have won in the redbull.

The only thing that would cause them to lose is themselves or a redbull team mate.

Hamilton made some interesting comments recently on how Vettel missed apexes and still put the thing on Pole.
Just shows how dam fast the redbull car is.

Considering that McLaren was the faster car and Webber could only end up in 6th place in WDC only a few drivers would have done the job in that Red Bull...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Peter77 - Vergne and Ricciardo didn't drive this year's car at a test, ever. Robin Frijns and Ant Felix da Costa did. Kevin Magnussen was fastest on day 1 in the McLaren (01:42.651), AFdC on day 2 in the RB8 (01:42.679), and Davide Valsecchi was fastest on day 3 for Lotus (01:42.677).

Lewis' pole lap at Abu Dhabi = 1:40.630
Sebastian's Q3 time = 1:41.073
Kimi's Q3 time = 1:41.260

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
IMO you don't need to imagine anybody replacing the one you put in Vettel's shoes, i.e. if you imagine e.g. Alonso at Red Bull, he would have been competing against himself. In other words the competition stays exactly the same as Vettel faced. Or you can put Vettel in his replacement's car.


There is a difference. If the competition stayed exactly the same with the changing drivers driving a hypothetical third Red Bull, then Vettel would still have won in his own RB8.

But the situation changes dramatically if you put Vettel in his replacement's car. IMO, if Hamilton, Button or Alonso had swapped with Vettel, the German would have had a good chance of beating both in a McLaren (reliabilty allowing) and Ferrari. But if he had exchanged places with Raikkonen, he would have struggled in the Lotus and might have managed 2 or at most 3 wins. Raikkonen then would have won the WDC in the RB8. If Vettel had exchaned with any other driver, he would not won the WDC of course, but neither would have that other driver, although Massa would have got closest. In that scenario, Alonso would have won the WDC in his Ferrari.

Therefore, IMO the only driver on the 2012 grid who would have won the WDC in 2012 by excanging cars with Vettel is Kimi Raikkonen.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Knowing that car was 0.5-1 second faster than the rest of the field in 75% of races (Hembery stating Red Bulls were 15 kph faster in corners than all other cars in India or Webber saying he drove awful lap in India, yet he started from P2, less than 1 tenth off pole and 2 tenths clear ahead of the rest), I would say a lot of drivers.

One thing is certain. Alonso and Hamilton in such fast car would win WDC in September or at the beginning of October, some 4-5 races before the end of season. Just look at how average Vettel was:

-in Malaysia he collided with Karthikeyan
-in China he had awful qualifying
-in Spain he didn't even try a lap in Q3
-in Spain he didn't slow down for yellow flags and gained penalty
-in Monaco he had awful qualifying
-in Germany he overtook Button off the track and gained penalty
-in Belgium he had awful qualifying
-in Abu Dhabi he collided with Senna, he hit DRS board behind Safety Car, he overtook Grosjean off the circuit and had to do it again
-in Brazil he caused collision with Senna turning into corner like no one was there

And it's not everything, but I don't want to spend more time on mentioning all of his poor sessions or races (like qualifying in Australia, where Webber was faster despite having no KERS, which is worth 4 tenths per lap :uhoh:)

Meanwhile Hamilton was as perfect as you can expect from top F1 driver over one season, with his only bad day on Saturday at Spa. Alonso made few mistakes more (qualifying in Australia, first corner in Japan), but you have to remember his car was 0.5-1 second per lap slower than Red Bull, so it's not great to drive with having that in mind.

Vettel by many 'experts' was described as a new rainmaster and what exactly he has shown in Malaysia in not the dominant car? He was whooping 3 seconds ahead of Webber when he hit Karthikeyan.

Monaco is known as the true test of driver's skills and what Vettel has shown this year in a car, which got his journeyman teammate on pole and top step of a podium? P10 in qualifying and P4 in the race, only because he could drive in clear air, while his teammate was holding everyone up in order to make tyres last till the end (as Monaco was huge tyre saving procession :thumbdown:)

And before someone will mention how Webber in all these years couldn't even grab P2 in WDC, which would mean it's the Vettel who is making a difference, let's not forget before 2009 Webber had only 2 podiums. In 2005 Monaco he grabbed 3rd, finishing behind his teammate Heidfeld (who couldn't even find a full-time seat after BMW pulled out in 2009 and was fired firstly by Sauber and then by Renault), while in Europe 2007 he had to defend like crazy his 3rd place against Wurz in a Williams. The same Wurz who didn't even last a season after return to racing, as he had to give his seat to Nakajima in Brazil that year. That's how good Webber really is.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:30 pm 
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I'm sure someone just does a copy and paste job from their 1 and only post over and over again to try to make a point.
The 'anyone but Vettel' clan have run out of ideas and we're only 3 days into the year.

Rather than slate drivers for stupid errors like Melbourne Q2, China race, Japan start, Valencia last lap, Spa Qualy etc etc, I'll look at the positives

Super race from 6th to 2nd, splitting Mclarens and would've done so without the SC
Strong recovery on sub-optimal strategy in China from P15 at Lap 1 to P2, before dropping back to 5th at the end
Pole and win, keeping the seemingly faster Lotus cars behind
Recovery to 6th in Spain from P10 despite DT penalty and unscheduled FW change
Super recovery in Monaco 10th to 4th and almost won
Pole in Canada
Dominant weekend in Valencia, considerably quicker than any other driver until car failure
Relatively strong races in Germany, Hungary, where RB was not on the leaders pace.
Amazing recovery drive in Spa after being 12th on restart to 2nd
Great weekend in Monza running 5th until questionable DT and then car failure.
Along with Hamilton, on another level in Singapore. Easy when when Ham retired
3 more back to back wins at the pressure end of the season- rivals falling out of title running
Supreme recovery from Pitlane to podium in AD despite 1 SC which put him at the back again and another after he was already certain of minimum 4th
Miles faster than anyone bar Hamilton in austin, like a classic MS v MH 55 lap qualy battle
Recovery to 6th in Brazil despite the car being battered after Senna outbraked himself at the start- all of which under the most extreme pressure of a title battle.

Most overtakes in the season despite having a car which was generally 10-20kph slower than the top cars in the straights
Undisputed champion of the mind games- he's seen off Webber, Hamilton and Alonso in the mind games department

Its easy to be the underdog as Alonso was, but when that Ferrari became competitive in races and he was expected to walk the title, he failed. Did all the hard work in a crap car but when the car was good, he could do no better. Hamilton didn't win when the car was fast and reliable, so when it was fast and unreliable, he retired from the lead. Vettel dug in when the car was crap and pounced when it was good.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:40 pm 
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Without a doubt it has to be Alonso, then either Hamilton or the Ice Man.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:14 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
Covalent wrote:
IMO you don't need to imagine anybody replacing the one you put in Vettel's shoes, i.e. if you imagine e.g. Alonso at Red Bull, he would have been competing against himself. In other words the competition stays exactly the same as Vettel faced. Or you can put Vettel in his replacement's car.


There is a difference. If the competition stayed exactly the same with the changing drivers driving a hypothetical third Red Bull, then Vettel would still have won in his own RB8.

But the situation changes dramatically if you put Vettel in his replacement's car. IMO, if Hamilton, Button or Alonso had swapped with Vettel, the German would have had a good chance of beating both in a McLaren (reliabilty allowing) and Ferrari. But if he had exchanged places with Raikkonen, he would have struggled in the Lotus and might have managed 2 or at most 3 wins. Raikkonen then would have won the WDC in the RB8. If Vettel had exchaned with any other driver, he would not won the WDC of course, but neither would have that other driver, although Massa would have got closest. In that scenario, Alonso would have won the WDC in his Ferrari.

Therefore, IMO the only driver on the 2012 grid who would have won the WDC in 2012 by excanging cars with Vettel is Kimi Raikkonen.

I know there's a difference, but you got it a little wrong. When I said the competition stays exactly the same, I meant the competition Vettel faced. So as I said, put Alonso in Vettel's shoes at Red Bull, he would be competing against the Alonso at Ferrari. There wouldn't be a third Red Bull.
Interesting analysis all the same!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:17 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
Covalent wrote:
IMO you don't need to imagine anybody replacing the one you put in Vettel's shoes, i.e. if you imagine e.g. Alonso at Red Bull, he would have been competing against himself. In other words the competition stays exactly the same as Vettel faced. Or you can put Vettel in his replacement's car.


There is a difference. If the competition stayed exactly the same with the changing drivers driving a hypothetical third Red Bull, then Vettel would still have won in his own RB8.

But the situation changes dramatically if you put Vettel in his replacement's car. IMO, if Hamilton, Button or Alonso had swapped with Vettel, the German would have had a good chance of beating both in a McLaren (reliabilty allowing) and Ferrari. But if he had exchanged places with Raikkonen, he would have struggled in the Lotus and might have managed 2 or at most 3 wins. Raikkonen then would have won the WDC in the RB8. If Vettel had exchaned with any other driver, he would not won the WDC of course, but neither would have that other driver, although Massa would have got closest. In that scenario, Alonso would have won the WDC in his Ferrari.

Therefore, IMO the only driver on the 2012 grid who would have won the WDC in 2012 by excanging cars with Vettel is Kimi Raikkonen.

I know there's a difference, but you got it a little wrong. When I said the competition stays exactly the same, I meant the competition Vettel faced. So as I said, put Alonso in Vettel's shoes at Red Bull, he would be competing against the Alonso at Ferrari. There wouldn't be a third Red Bull.
Interesting analysis all the same!

Two Alonso's on the grid now that would be good. :]


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Is one Alonso the Devil Alonso and one the Angel Alonso?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
Covalent wrote:
IMO you don't need to imagine anybody replacing the one you put in Vettel's shoes, i.e. if you imagine e.g. Alonso at Red Bull, he would have been competing against himself. In other words the competition stays exactly the same as Vettel faced. Or you can put Vettel in his replacement's car.


There is a difference. If the competition stayed exactly the same with the changing drivers driving a hypothetical third Red Bull, then Vettel would still have won in his own RB8.

But the situation changes dramatically if you put Vettel in his replacement's car. IMO, if Hamilton, Button or Alonso had swapped with Vettel, the German would have had a good chance of beating both in a McLaren (reliabilty allowing) and Ferrari. But if he had exchanged places with Raikkonen, he would have struggled in the Lotus and might have managed 2 or at most 3 wins. Raikkonen then would have won the WDC in the RB8. If Vettel had exchaned with any other driver, he would not won the WDC of course, but neither would have that other driver, although Massa would have got closest. In that scenario, Alonso would have won the WDC in his Ferrari.

Therefore, IMO the only driver on the 2012 grid who would have won the WDC in 2012 by excanging cars with Vettel is Kimi Raikkonen.

I know there's a difference, but you got it a little wrong. When I said the competition stays exactly the same, I meant the competition Vettel faced. So as I said, put Alonso in Vettel's shoes at Red Bull, he would be competing against the Alonso at Ferrari. There wouldn't be a third Red Bull.
Interesting analysis all the same!

Alonso in the 2012 Red Bull would have wiped the floor clean with Alonso in the 2012 Ferrari.

And Alonso in the 2012 Ferrari was only 3 points shy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:34 pm 
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Perilouscow wrote:
Karthikeyan.


You are pretty funny

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:57 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Is one Alonso the Devil Alonso and one the Angel Alonso?

Yes one to clear the path the other to win :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:59 am 
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One Alonso whose gearbox can be tampered with and the other to gain spots in qualifying


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:08 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
Covalent wrote:
IMO you don't need to imagine anybody replacing the one you put in Vettel's shoes, i.e. if you imagine e.g. Alonso at Red Bull, he would have been competing against himself. In other words the competition stays exactly the same as Vettel faced. Or you can put Vettel in his replacement's car.


There is a difference. If the competition stayed exactly the same with the changing drivers driving a hypothetical third Red Bull, then Vettel would still have won in his own RB8.

But the situation changes dramatically if you put Vettel in his replacement's car. IMO, if Hamilton, Button or Alonso had swapped with Vettel, the German would have had a good chance of beating both in a McLaren (reliabilty allowing) and Ferrari. But if he had exchanged places with Raikkonen, he would have struggled in the Lotus and might have managed 2 or at most 3 wins. Raikkonen then would have won the WDC in the RB8. If Vettel had exchaned with any other driver, he would not won the WDC of course, but neither would have that other driver, although Massa would have got closest. In that scenario, Alonso would have won the WDC in his Ferrari.

Therefore, IMO the only driver on the 2012 grid who would have won the WDC in 2012 by excanging cars with Vettel is Kimi Raikkonen.

I know there's a difference, but you got it a little wrong. When I said the competition stays exactly the same, I meant the competition Vettel faced. So as I said, put Alonso in Vettel's shoes at Red Bull, he would be competing against the Alonso at Ferrari. There wouldn't be a third Red Bull.
Interesting analysis all the same!

Alonso in the 2012 Red Bull would have wiped the floor clean with Alonso in the 2012 Ferrari.

And Alonso in the 2012 Ferrari was only 3 points shy.

I'm not so sure. At Ferrari he has the reliability and the undisputed no 1 status.

What do you think about Vettel and Alonso switching places?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:47 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
Considering that when Jean eric vergne and Ricciardo both drove the red bull in young drivers test they smashed the field shows that anybody driving the redbull can do amazing times even total rookies.

If 2 total rookies can just jump into that car and in a a days testing can start smashing records than any of the current F1 drivers would easily have won in the redbull.

The only thing that would cause them to lose is themselves or a redbull team mate.

Hamilton made some interesting comments recently on how Vettel missed apexes and still put the thing on Pole.
Just shows how dam fast the redbull car is.


You're kidding yourself if you think that the extra rubbering in the F1 event did on that weekend hadn't played a part if you compare those times like for like. I won't even start on tyre compounds, fuel loads and different parts run on the cars. We don't know what fuel mixtures the engines were running on the different days either. To use a term from science "laboratory conditions." Not present in this comparison. It's one thing to write that others could have won in the Red Bull as I've done, it's quite another to write that anybody could based on a premise that is neither factual nor scientific.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:56 am 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
Knowing that car was 0.5-1 second faster than the rest of the field in 75% of races (Hembery stating Red Bulls were 15 kph faster in corners than all other cars in India or Webber saying he drove awful lap in India, yet he started from P2, less than 1 tenth off pole and 2 tenths clear ahead of the rest), I would say a lot of drivers.

One thing is certain. Alonso and Hamilton in such fast car would win WDC in September or at the beginning of October, some 4-5 races before the end of season. Just look at how average Vettel was:

-in Malaysia he collided with Karthikeyan
-in China he had awful qualifying
-in Spain he didn't even try a lap in Q3
-in Spain he didn't slow down for yellow flags and gained penalty
-in Monaco he had awful qualifying
-in Germany he overtook Button off the track and gained penalty
-in Belgium he had awful qualifying
-in Abu Dhabi he collided with Senna, he hit DRS board behind Safety Car, he overtook Grosjean off the circuit and had to do it again
-in Brazil he caused collision with Senna turning into corner like no one was there

And it's not everything, but I don't want to spend more time on mentioning all of his poor sessions or races (like qualifying in Australia, where Webber was faster despite having no KERS, which is worth 4 tenths per lap :uhoh:)

Meanwhile Hamilton was as perfect as you can expect from top F1 driver over one season, with his only bad day on Saturday at Spa. Alonso made few mistakes more (qualifying in Australia, first corner in Japan), but you have to remember his car was 0.5-1 second per lap slower than Red Bull, so it's not great to drive with having that in mind.

Vettel by many 'experts' was described as a new rainmaster and what exactly he has shown in Malaysia in not the dominant car? He was whooping 3 seconds ahead of Webber when he hit Karthikeyan.

Monaco is known as the true test of driver's skills and what Vettel has shown this year in a car, which got his journeyman teammate on pole and top step of a podium? P10 in qualifying and P4 in the race, only because he could drive in clear air, while his teammate was holding everyone up in order to make tyres last till the end (as Monaco was huge tyre saving procession :thumbdown:)

And before someone will mention how Webber in all these years couldn't even grab P2 in WDC, which would mean it's the Vettel who is making a difference, let's not forget before 2009 Webber had only 2 podiums. In 2005 Monaco he grabbed 3rd, finishing behind his teammate Heidfeld (who couldn't even find a full-time seat after BMW pulled out in 2009 and was fired firstly by Sauber and then by Renault), while in Europe 2007 he had to defend like crazy his 3rd place against Wurz in a Williams. The same Wurz who didn't even last a season after return to racing, as he had to give his seat to Nakajima in Brazil that year. That's how good Webber really is.



You are very funny. Had a nice laugh to begin my day.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:56 am 
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I'm often not sure who's more deluded, the anti-Vettel fans or the pro-Vettel fans. They both come up with so much BS!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:28 am 
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Covalent wrote:
I'm not so sure. At Ferrari he has the reliability and the undisputed no 1 status.

What do you think about Vettel and Alonso switching places?

My honest opinion?

Alonso would have been champ. No doubt in my mind.

I don't think anybody could have done a better job in the 2012 Ferrari - not Hamilton, not Vettel, not anyone. Now don't get me wrong, I think Vettel would have been competitive and, like Alonso, he would have left Massa in his dust. And I think Vettel is faster than Alonso over one lap and probably would start a few races higher up the grid (although this depends on the points I'm about to make about driving style).

I think the frustration of the F2012 would get to him.

I'm thinking purely of driving style. Vettel stated that he couldn't pull his usual tricks with the RB8 (before Singapore obviously) and I don't think he had much confidence in the car. I could only imagine what sort of confidence he would have had in a Ferrari that was liable to change from understeer to oversteer in the middle of a corner.

Gary Anderson often went into detail about Ferrari's problems in his BBC columns and how the Ferrari drivers were constantly sawing at the wheel, whereas the Red Bulls & McLarens were planted to the floor (and this was late in the season - could have been his Suzuka column - can't remember). He more or less said Alonso was still in the title hunt because he just got on with it. He's the king of adapting his driving style (my words, not Gary's) and I don't think many of the other drivers would have adapted to such a poor car. I dread to think what the likes of Jenson Button could have managed in the F2012.

Apparently Alonso was also the first one to figure out how to drive the 2012 Pirellis (I can't remember if it was Gary's column or James Allen's blog where I read this). He figured out pretty quick that they didn't like braking and turning at the same time. So he changed what he was doing - changed to braking first, then turning. Supposedly this took a bit longer for the others to figure out. So in those first few races, with that knowledge in hand and a Red Bull handling much better than the Ferrari, I think he would have collected many more points than he did in reality. And this would have laid the foundation to him building a lead when he got the revised Red Bull in the latter stages of the season.

Pure speculation but I'm basing my opinions on what I have heard/read/seen with my own eyes and putting all this info together.

The great unknown in my speculation is if Alonso can drive a hooked up "Newey-on-his-A-game" Red Bull like Vettel can. Could Alonso use acceleration to plant his car like Vettel can (i.e. the tricks Vettel was talking about)? And would he score 4 victories in a row with a car that stuck to the ground if you put your confidence in it?
Who knows. We know Webber can't do it to the same degree. Personally I think Alonso would be able to adapt and drive the revised RB8 to race victories but this is purely my opinion.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:47 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I'm not so sure. At Ferrari he has the reliability and the undisputed no 1 status.

What do you think about Vettel and Alonso switching places?

My honest opinion?

Alonso would have been champ. No doubt in my mind.

I don't think anybody could have done a better job in the 2012 Ferrari - not Hamilton, not Vettel, not anyone. Now don't get me wrong, I think Vettel would have been competitive and, like Alonso, he would have left Massa in his dust. And I think Vettel is faster than Alonso over one lap and probably would start a few races higher up the grid (although this depends on the points I'm about to make about driving style).

I think the frustration of the F2012 would get to him.

I'm thinking purely of driving style. Vettel stated that he couldn't pull his usual tricks with the RB8 (before Singapore obviously) and I don't think he had much confidence in the car. I could only imagine what sort of confidence he would have had in a Ferrari that was liable to change from understeer to oversteer in the middle of a corner.

Gary Anderson often went into detail about Ferrari's problems in his BBC columns and how the Ferrari drivers were constantly sawing at the wheel, whereas the Red Bulls & McLarens were planted to the floor (and this was late in the season - could have been his Suzuka column - can't remember). He more or less said Alonso was still in the title hunt because he just got on with it. He's the king of adapting his driving style (my words, not Gary's) and I don't think many of the other drivers would have adapted to such a poor car. I dread to think what the likes of Jenson Button could have managed in the F2012.

Apparently Alonso was also the first one to figure out how to drive the 2012 Pirellis (I can't remember if it was Gary's column or James Allen's blog where I read this). He figured out pretty quick that they didn't like braking and turning at the same time. So he changed what he was doing - changed to braking first, then turning. Supposedly this took a bit longer for the others to figure out. So in those first few races, with that knowledge in hand and a Red Bull handling much better than the Ferrari, I think he would have collected many more points than he did in reality. And this would have laid the foundation to him building a lead when he got the revised Red Bull in the latter stages of the season.

Pure speculation but I'm basing my opinions on what I have heard/read/seen with my own eyes and putting all this info together.

The great unknown in my speculation is if Alonso can drive a hooked up "Newey-on-his-A-game" Red Bull like Vettel can. Could Alonso use acceleration to plant his car like Vettel can (i.e. the tricks Vettel was talking about)? And would he score 4 victories in a row with a car that stuck to the ground if you put your confidence in it?
Who knows. We know Webber can't do it to the same degree. Personally I think Alonso would be able to adapt and drive the revised RB8 to race victories but this is purely my opinion.


Well said. I think that neither Alonso nor Vettel could extract as much from the other one's car than they would from their own (didn't find a better way to put it, sorry if confusing!) so it would IMO come down to who could adapt better. Like you said Alonso is widely regarded the king of adaptation, but who could say for sure! It'd be an interesting battle nonetheless.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:47 am 
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jammin78 wrote:
I'm often not sure who's more deluded, the anti-Vettel fans or the pro-Vettel fans. They both come up with so much BS!


I also liked the emphasis on a single track as a test of driver skill at the same time as, just by chance of course, omitting that other great test of driver skill that has been dominated by Vettel: Suzuka. Statistics can be used well to back up a point, but the point collapses when the selectivity is that blatantly obvious.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:57 pm 
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A2jdl wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
Covalent wrote:
IMO you don't need to imagine anybody replacing the one you put in Vettel's shoes, i.e. if you imagine e.g. Alonso at Red Bull, he would have been competing against himself. In other words the competition stays exactly the same as Vettel faced. Or you can put Vettel in his replacement's car.


There is a difference. If the competition stayed exactly the same with the changing drivers driving a hypothetical third Red Bull, then Vettel would still have won in his own RB8.

But the situation changes dramatically if you put Vettel in his replacement's car. IMO, if Hamilton, Button or Alonso had swapped with Vettel, the German would have had a good chance of beating both in a McLaren (reliabilty allowing) and Ferrari. But if he had exchanged places with Raikkonen, he would have struggled in the Lotus and might have managed 2 or at most 3 wins. Raikkonen then would have won the WDC in the RB8. If Vettel had exchaned with any other driver, he would not won the WDC of course, but neither would have that other driver, although Massa would have got closest. In that scenario, Alonso would have won the WDC in his Ferrari.

Therefore, IMO the only driver on the 2012 grid who would have won the WDC in 2012 by excanging cars with Vettel is Kimi Raikkonen.

I know there's a difference, but you got it a little wrong. When I said the competition stays exactly the same, I meant the competition Vettel faced. So as I said, put Alonso in Vettel's shoes at Red Bull, he would be competing against the Alonso at Ferrari. There wouldn't be a third Red Bull.
Interesting analysis all the same!

Two Alonso's on the grid now that would be good. :]


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:08 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
A2jdl wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
Covalent wrote:
IMO you don't need to imagine anybody replacing the one you put in Vettel's shoes, i.e. if you imagine e.g. Alonso at Red Bull, he would have been competing against himself. In other words the competition stays exactly the same as Vettel faced. Or you can put Vettel in his replacement's car.


There is a difference. If the competition stayed exactly the same with the changing drivers driving a hypothetical third Red Bull, then Vettel would still have won in his own RB8.

But the situation changes dramatically if you put Vettel in his replacement's car. IMO, if Hamilton, Button or Alonso had swapped with Vettel, the German would have had a good chance of beating both in a McLaren (reliabilty allowing) and Ferrari. But if he had exchanged places with Raikkonen, he would have struggled in the Lotus and might have managed 2 or at most 3 wins. Raikkonen then would have won the WDC in the RB8. If Vettel had exchaned with any other driver, he would not won the WDC of course, but neither would have that other driver, although Massa would have got closest. In that scenario, Alonso would have won the WDC in his Ferrari.

Therefore, IMO the only driver on the 2012 grid who would have won the WDC in 2012 by excanging cars with Vettel is Kimi Raikkonen.

I know there's a difference, but you got it a little wrong. When I said the competition stays exactly the same, I meant the competition Vettel faced. So as I said, put Alonso in Vettel's shoes at Red Bull, he would be competing against the Alonso at Ferrari. There wouldn't be a third Red Bull.
Interesting analysis all the same!

Two Alonso's on the grid now that would be good. :]


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V good. :lol: He does look strange tho in RB gear !


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:07 pm 
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hittheapex wrote:
Peter77 wrote:
Considering that when Jean eric vergne and Ricciardo both drove the red bull in young drivers test they smashed the field shows that anybody driving the redbull can do amazing times even total rookies.

If 2 total rookies can just jump into that car and in a a days testing can start smashing records than any of the current F1 drivers would easily have won in the redbull.

The only thing that would cause them to lose is themselves or a redbull team mate.

Hamilton made some interesting comments recently on how Vettel missed apexes and still put the thing on Pole.
Just shows how dam fast the redbull car is.


You're kidding yourself if you think that the extra rubbering in the F1 event did on that weekend hadn't played a part if you compare those times like for like. I won't even start on tyre compounds, fuel loads and different parts run on the cars. We don't know what fuel mixtures the engines were running on the different days either. To use a term from science "laboratory conditions." Not present in this comparison. It's one thing to write that others could have won in the Red Bull as I've done, it's quite another to write that anybody could based on a premise that is neither factual nor scientific.

Especially since the test he's talking about never happened. JEV and RIC drove an RB7 in 2011. The question is about the RB8, in 2012. I posted the times for the two drivers who tested an RB8. Sadly they didn't break any records, or even equal the quali laps.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:56 am 
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stendec wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
Knowing that car was 0.5-1 second faster than the rest of the field in 75% of races (Hembery stating Red Bulls were 15 kph faster in corners than all other cars in India or Webber saying he drove awful lap in India, yet he started from P2, less than 1 tenth off pole and 2 tenths clear ahead of the rest), I would say a lot of drivers.

One thing is certain. Alonso and Hamilton in such fast car would win WDC in September or at the beginning of October, some 4-5 races before the end of season. Just look at how average Vettel was:

-in Malaysia he collided with Karthikeyan
-in China he had awful qualifying
-in Spain he didn't even try a lap in Q3
-in Spain he didn't slow down for yellow flags and gained penalty
-in Monaco he had awful qualifying
-in Germany he overtook Button off the track and gained penalty
-in Belgium he had awful qualifying
-in Abu Dhabi he collided with Senna, he hit DRS board behind Safety Car, he overtook Grosjean off the circuit and had to do it again
-in Brazil he caused collision with Senna turning into corner like no one was there

And it's not everything, but I don't want to spend more time on mentioning all of his poor sessions or races (like qualifying in Australia, where Webber was faster despite having no KERS, which is worth 4 tenths per lap :uhoh:)

Meanwhile Hamilton was as perfect as you can expect from top F1 driver over one season, with his only bad day on Saturday at Spa. Alonso made few mistakes more (qualifying in Australia, first corner in Japan), but you have to remember his car was 0.5-1 second per lap slower than Red Bull, so it's not great to drive with having that in mind.

Vettel by many 'experts' was described as a new rainmaster and what exactly he has shown in Malaysia in not the dominant car? He was whooping 3 seconds ahead of Webber when he hit Karthikeyan.

Monaco is known as the true test of driver's skills and what Vettel has shown this year in a car, which got his journeyman teammate on pole and top step of a podium? P10 in qualifying and P4 in the race, only because he could drive in clear air, while his teammate was holding everyone up in order to make tyres last till the end (as Monaco was huge tyre saving procession :thumbdown:)

And before someone will mention how Webber in all these years couldn't even grab P2 in WDC, which would mean it's the Vettel who is making a difference, let's not forget before 2009 Webber had only 2 podiums. In 2005 Monaco he grabbed 3rd, finishing behind his teammate Heidfeld (who couldn't even find a full-time seat after BMW pulled out in 2009 and was fired firstly by Sauber and then by Renault), while in Europe 2007 he had to defend like crazy his 3rd place against Wurz in a Williams. The same Wurz who didn't even last a season after return to racing, as he had to give his seat to Nakajima in Brazil that year. That's how good Webber really is.



You are very funny. Had a nice laugh to begin my day.

:lol: :lol: :lol: It really is funny and entertaining. Hoping more laughs like this in this winter break.

The funniest is how he diminished Webber’s whole life achievements just to destroy Vettel’s image (and I don’t remember Heidfeld defending like crazy in Europe 2007, if there really was Europe GP in 2007).

I can’t imagine how he could live seeing a "very average driver with many lacks of skills" won the title three times in a row, and runner up the year before. Must’ve hurt very much……. :]


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:35 am 
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ferdinand wrote:
I can’t imagine how he could live seeing a "very average driver with many lacks of skills" won the title three times in a row, and runner up the year before. Must’ve hurt very much……. :]


Quite easy if one's eyes are located next to the tailpipe.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:11 pm 
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V good. :lol: He does look strange tho in RB gear ![/quote]

I don't think Fernando would mind :nod:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:08 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Any of the guys in the top 4 cars apart from perhaps Massa. Rosberg surely would have, Schumacher perhaps at Monaco.


Whatever Nico could do in 2012 would be about the same as Schumacher. So if Nico could, Schumacher could.

However Vettel is very good at driving with this extreme exhaust-blowing setup, the answer to the question might well be "nobody".


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:12 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Any of the guys in the top 4 cars apart from perhaps Massa. Rosberg surely would have, Schumacher perhaps at Monaco.


Whatever Nico could do in 2012 would be about the same as Schumacher. So if Nico could, Schumacher could.

However Vettel is very good at driving with this extreme exhaust-blowing setup, the answer to the question might well be "nobody".

That's not a given IMO. I think Schumacher might be better at working around a problematic car (this year's Merc for instance) but I expect Nico would extract more from the Red Bull than Schumi.

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