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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:03 pm 
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88396

by someone who knows what they are talking about.

and to think vettel is still so young. he will go down as the greatest ever imo


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:04 pm 
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yes i know its old but it is even more relevent he has equalled senna for titles


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:50 pm 
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Quite telling. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:53 pm 
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I don't really agree or disagree, but I guess if anyone was in a great position to have an informed opinion on that, it would be Ascanelli.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:08 pm 
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I wouldn't say it like that, Ayrton had to deal with Alain Prost as his teammate in 88 and 89 so he had a tougher challenge not to mention Nigel Mansell in the Williams. While Vettel had to fight against Mark Webber in 2011 and Fernando Alonso in 10' and 12' but it's just my opinion..

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:27 am 
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Kolby wrote:
I wouldn't say it like that, Ayrton had to deal with Alain Prost as his teammate in 88 and 89 so he had a tougher challenge not to mention Nigel Mansell in the Williams. While Vettel had to fight against Mark Webber in 2011 and Fernando Alonso in 10' and 12' but it's just my opinion..


but did senna win a title in a grid consiting of 6 world chamapions and do it in not the fastest car?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:41 am 
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Has Ascanelli officially gone back to Ferrari for round 3 or are we still speculating about that? I can't wait to see the new non-Ascanelli STR.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:47 am 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
Kolby wrote:
I wouldn't say it like that, Ayrton had to deal with Alain Prost as his teammate in 88 and 89 so he had a tougher challenge not to mention Nigel Mansell in the Williams. While Vettel had to fight against Mark Webber in 2011 and Fernando Alonso in 10' and 12' but it's just my opinion..


but did senna win a title in a grid consiting of 6 world chamapions and do it in not the fastest car?


No but he did so with one of the greatest drivers ever as his team mate whilst there were still challenges posed by mansell, piquet and others... Overall it doesn't matter anyway. Vettel probably shouldn't be ranked so highly just yet, give it time and maybe some extra perspective can be added when assessing his greatness. For the moment, everyone can accept that with Hamilton and Alonso, he is one of the best of this generation just as Senna was in his

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:56 am 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
Kolby wrote:
I wouldn't say it like that, Ayrton had to deal with Alain Prost as his teammate in 88 and 89 so he had a tougher challenge not to mention Nigel Mansell in the Williams. While Vettel had to fight against Mark Webber in 2011 and Fernando Alonso in 10' and 12' but it's just my opinion..


but did senna win a title in a grid consiting of 6 world chamapions and do it in not the fastest car?

in my view that doesn't count for much in the the world of f1 senna was the most naturally quick and talented drivers i have ever watched, i don't think you can claim the red bull wasn't the faster car its track dependant as McLaren were faster at tracks requiring great straight line speed red bull were faster on mid to slow corner tracks. For three years vettel has had an inferior team mate... Sorry Webber fans but he isn't quite that top level and for the years had the most dominant car overall. Not to take anything away from vettel but i can pick an abundance of great drives from senna from memory, vettel barely a handful has stuck. Equalling titles and such is a good marker but not a definite indication of ability. Having 6 wdc on the grid is all well and good but only 2 (button and Hamilton) were in cars that could consistently match red bull and even then the reliability let them down i personally think Hamilton would have won if the reliability was better.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:01 am 
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The "wait till he retires" started, and i'm just guessing, as Michael came to the scene... I mean, how many drivers have a career about as long as his? Answer is a staggering 3 (Barrichello, Prost and Patrese if i'm right). Senna's was about a decade for reference and for most drivers, they're lucky if they're in for more than 3-4 years. For the most part of his career, i used to read "he's still in his prime and who knows what is to come, but it is too soon." Well, another German here wins 3 championships in a row... BBC rated him too high for my liking :P (i know, sometimes i'm really hard to please) I still think he doesn't deserve a mention in all time top 10 yet... However, he is approaching top 20 for a permanent spot in it, which is to say that he's pretty damn good. Here's hoping the finger is waving ever so more... Though, i must remind people who lose their cool at the sight of the finger, that Vettel is more than just a finger waving German, he's a damned good F1 driver and a deserving champion.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:23 am 
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I read this when the article first came out, and I thought that it was very high praise for a still maturing 23-year-old. There are few in the sport who will deny that Vettel is supremely talented (except Hamilton, I guess) and it seems a near certainty that he will be considered an all-time great in Formula One given his success until today.

However, one should note that Kimi was also considered the quickest driver in Formula One when he moved to Ferrari and there were several stories in the latter half of 2009 suggesting that his team were stunned by how much pace he was extracting from the car that year - and that it was only his motivation rather than ability holding him back. But he still only has one title and is likely to be remembered as a quick driver in his time, but not in the league of Senna or even Alonso unless he wins the WDC again.

My point is that there are several very quick drivers who have a few very good years at the top of their game, and their team at the time are likely to feel then that their guy is possibly the greatest the sport has seen. If these drivers are lucky enough to be in a car capable of winning during those years, then they get recognition for their abilities. What I take from this article is that Vettel is an extraordinary talent and may indeed be as gifted as Senna. But people have said similar things about Kimi, Alonso and Hamilton as well, so I take it with a pinch of salt.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:41 am 
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Kolby wrote:
I wouldn't say it like that, Ayrton had to deal with Alain Prost as his teammate in 88 and 89 so he had a tougher challenge not to mention Nigel Mansell in the Williams. While Vettel had to fight against Mark Webber in 2011 and Fernando Alonso in 10' and 12' but it's just my opinion..


Why do you say that? Do you remember who led the 2010 championship for 3/4 of the season? Not Alonso - surely not Vettel, he never led at all until the final race. Not Hamilton or Button. Then who?

Mark Webber.

Perhaps you should rethink that statement.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:12 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Kolby wrote:
I wouldn't say it like that, Ayrton had to deal with Alain Prost as his teammate in 88 and 89 so he had a tougher challenge not to mention Nigel Mansell in the Williams. While Vettel had to fight against Mark Webber in 2011 and Fernando Alonso in 10' and 12' but it's just my opinion..


Why do you say that? Do you remember who led the 2010 championship for 3/4 of the season? Not Alonso - surely not Vettel, he never led at all until the final race. Not Hamilton or Button. Then who?

Mark Webber.

Perhaps you should rethink that statement.


some people will never exept anything vettel does, they like to believe he isnt the best driver in f1 atm despite his dominance, the problem with fanboys is you simply can't get through to them, vettel could win 10 titles in a row driving a midfield car and he would still not have proved himself


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:32 am 
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Way to early to start declaring anyone as 'the best' or 'a great' when their career is still going. For all we know, 2013 onwards he could be pure crap.

You cant start labeling drivers until their career is over IMO.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:50 am 
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RickM wrote:
Way to early to start declaring anyone as 'the best' or 'a great' when their career is still going. For all we know, 2013 onwards he could be pure crap.

You cant start labeling drivers until their career is over IMO.



yeah look at hamilton first 2 years, looked like he would dominate. but here we are 6 years later and he has only 1 title and hopefully moving to a slow car for next 3 years. could be 1 title in 9 years after this contract.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Quote:
Ascanelli claims that Vettel is as good as Senna


Bruno maybe ;)












Nah, I'm just kidding, I'm not that guy. Happy new year everyone.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
RickM wrote:
Way to early to start declaring anyone as 'the best' or 'a great' when their career is still going. For all we know, 2013 onwards he could be pure crap.

You cant start labeling drivers until their career is over IMO.



yeah look at hamilton first 2 years, looked like he would dominate. but here we are 6 years later and he has only 1 title and hopefully moving to a slow car for next 3 years. could be 1 title in 9 years after this contract.


Good example. He was considered to be the (excuse the term) 'wonder kid' when he started out, just like Vettel.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:14 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Way to early to start declaring anyone as 'the best' or 'a great' when their career is still going. For all we know, 2013 onwards he could be pure crap.

You cant start labeling drivers until their career is over IMO.

Well he already achieved unprecedented success at his age. He also competed in 6 (six!) F1 seasons! Even if he fails in next seasons his career still will be seen as success. 3 titles 46 podiums 36 poles 3 titles after just 101 races! How could anyone say it's too early to have an opinion?!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Hardly an impartial source is it? Team management personnel have always hyped up their own drivers. Didn't Frank Williams once say that Nico Rosberg was the fastest driver he ever worked with?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:48 pm 
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j man wrote:
Hardly an impartial source is it? Team management personnel have always hyped up their own drivers. Didn't Frank Williams once say that Nico Rosberg was the fastest driver he ever worked with?

he has said similar about bottas, we will soon find out.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:02 pm 
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Did anyone wait for Michael's career to be over to rank him among the best?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:53 pm 
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Vettel is in a similar league with Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Mansell, Piquet, and all the other greats. While he has achieved a great deal thanks in part to a spectacular car and even better teamwork, the guy has flat out driven his donkey off to take titles and has been the overall best qualifier the last 3 seasons. What I find most interesting is in how Mark was robbed of the championship in 2010 due to lack of support from his team because they wanted to support the young, up and coming new star driver, much the same way McLaren did with Prost in 88. The difference between the 2 situations is that Prost was NEVER about to accept any circumstances where he was looked upon as perhaps not the #1 driver or held equal status with a teammate. In contrast, Mark seems a bit more complacent and that has appeared to be the difference. I think if Mark drove tiddled off with a serious chip on his shoulder, he tends to be more focussed and sharper and can best Vettel as was the case when he uttered the words "not bad for a number 2 driver, aye?".

Comparing Vettel's career with Senna's, thus far they are quite similar, only in Senna's day the championship team usually enjoyed a significant advantage over everyone else. Today the advantage, though considered significant, is literally less than the blink of an eye but the flipside of course is that the cars today are considerably easier to drive compared to the cars Senna and his compatriots drove, so that adds to the difficulty in deciding how good Vettel is compared to Senna. I would love to see Vettel driving Senna's old cars on the limit on some of the tracks Senna drove on to compare lap times. That would help us gauge him a bit better. I would be up for pitching in a few bucks to make such a scenario a reality.

Good point Ashley and my sentiments exactly.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:53 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
Vettel is in a similar league with Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Mansell, Piquet, and all the other greats. While he has achieved a great deal thanks in part to a spectacular car and even better teamwork, the guy has flat out driven his donkey off to take titles and has been the overall best qualifier the last 3 seasons. What I find most interesting is in how Mark was robbed of the championship in 2010 due to lack of support from his team because they wanted to support the young, up and coming new star driver, much the same way McLaren did with Prost in 88. The difference between the 2 situations is that Prost was NEVER about to accept any circumstances where he was looked upon as perhaps not the #1 driver or held equal status with a teammate. In contrast, Mark seems a bit more complacent and that has appeared to be the difference. I think if Mark drove tiddled off with a serious chip on his shoulder, he tends to be more focussed and sharper and can best Vettel as was the case when he uttered the words "not bad for a number 2 driver, aye?".

Comparing Vettel's career with Senna's, thus far they are quite similar, only in Senna's day the championship team usually enjoyed a significant advantage over everyone else. Today the advantage, though considered significant, is literally less than the blink of an eye but the flipside of course is that the cars today are considerably easier to drive compared to the cars Senna and his compatriots drove, so that adds to the difficulty in deciding how good Vettel is compared to Senna. I would love to see Vettel driving Senna's old cars on the limit on some of the tracks Senna drove on to compare lap times. That would help us gauge him a bit better. I would be up for pitching in a few bucks to make such a scenario a reality.

Good point Ashley and my sentiments exactly.



well said


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:26 pm 
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in Senna's day the championship team usually enjoyed a significant advantage over everyone else.

............

very good point, little mistakes are more likely to cost you these days, if you are 2 seconds a lap faster than other cars then you can make a lot of errors and still beat them, do that these days and you won't make it past Q1.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:57 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
Vettel is in a similar league with Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Mansell, Piquet, and all the other greats. While he has achieved a great deal thanks in part to a spectacular car and even better teamwork, the guy has flat out driven his donkey off to take titles and has been the overall best qualifier the last 3 seasons. What I find most interesting is in how Mark was robbed of the championship in 2010 due to lack of support from his team because they wanted to support the young, up and coming new star driver, much the same way McLaren did with Prost in 88. The difference between the 2 situations is that Prost was NEVER about to accept any circumstances where he was looked upon as perhaps not the #1 driver or held equal status with a teammate. In contrast, Mark seems a bit more complacent and that has appeared to be the difference. I think if Mark drove tiddled off with a serious chip on his shoulder, he tends to be more focussed and sharper and can best Vettel as was the case when he uttered the words "not bad for a number 2 driver, aye?"...


Mark's behavior at Silverstone was extremely childish and did not give us an example of him besting Sebastian. A better example of Mark besting Sebastian was at Monaco, when he legitimately took pole and won. He's a fairly good measure to gauge Sebastian.

But I don't think Ascanelli is making a comparison between Senna and Vettel. He is just saying that he saw similarities in them as drivers which would ultimately result in success.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Hard to make comparisons with Vettel when he has so much time left in f1. An accurate assessment can only be made with Vettel and previous drivers when hes retired.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:24 pm 
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kevwright wrote:
Hard to make comparisons with Vettel when he has so much time left in f1. An accurate assessment can only be made with Vettel and previous drivers when hes retired.

Senna never retired. He was legend before he died, right? Or he is just gloried because he died? I was 6 when he died, I couldn't have opinion back then. Help me.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:34 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
kevwright wrote:
Hard to make comparisons with Vettel when he has so much time left in f1. An accurate assessment can only be made with Vettel and previous drivers when hes retired.

Senna never retired. He was legend before he died, right? Or he is just gloried because he died? I was 6 when he died, I couldn't have opinion back then. Help me.

he was regarded as the best of his generation and was looked at like a god in brazil and far east.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:38 pm 
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When vettel beats a teammate as good as Prost.... Then maybe...

However Vettel isn't sennaesque he drives much to boring ATM. Senna made the car dance, Vettel drives very well.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:41 pm 
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potter84 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
kevwright wrote:
Hard to make comparisons with Vettel when he has so much time left in f1. An accurate assessment can only be made with Vettel and previous drivers when hes retired.

Senna never retired. He was legend before he died, right? Or he is just gloried because he died? I was 6 when he died, I couldn't have opinion back then. Help me.

he was regarded as the best of his generation and was looked at like a god in brazil and far east.

I respect Senna. My point is that people can't accept that Vettel can be good now, because for some reason they need further evidence. Surely you don't win titles by accident. Vettel already did enough to be considered great and I say this as Kimi and Alonso fan. I'm not even Red Bull fan. I support Lotus(formerly Renault) and Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:55 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
potter84 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
kevwright wrote:
Hard to make comparisons with Vettel when he has so much time left in f1. An accurate assessment can only be made with Vettel and previous drivers when hes retired.

Senna never retired. He was legend before he died, right? Or he is just gloried because he died? I was 6 when he died, I couldn't have opinion back then. Help me.

he was regarded as the best of his generation and was looked at like a god in brazil and far east.

I respect Senna. My point is that people can't accept that Vettel can be good now, because for some reason they need further evidence. Surely you don't win titles by accident. Vettel already did enough to be considered great and I say this as Kimi and Alonso fan. I'm not even Red Bull fan. I support Lotus(formerly Renault) and Ferrari.

oh i agree you can have the best car but still have to perform, he is great but senna was regarded as one of the best or arguably the best of all time,he doesn't have the amount of titles to prove it, it becomes general opinion once you get to multiple wdc level.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:04 am 
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potter84 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
potter84 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
kevwright wrote:
Hard to make comparisons with Vettel when he has so much time left in f1. An accurate assessment can only be made with Vettel and previous drivers when hes retired.

Senna never retired. He was legend before he died, right? Or he is just gloried because he died? I was 6 when he died, I couldn't have opinion back then. Help me.

he was regarded as the best of his generation and was looked at like a god in brazil and far east.

I respect Senna. My point is that people can't accept that Vettel can be good now, because for some reason they need further evidence. Surely you don't win titles by accident. Vettel already did enough to be considered great and I say this as Kimi and Alonso fan. I'm not even Red Bull fan. I support Lotus(formerly Renault) and Ferrari.

oh i agree you can have the best car but still have to perform, he is great but senna was regarded as one of the best or arguably the best of all time,he doesn't have the amount of titles to prove it, it becomes general opinion once you get to multiple wdc level.

I agree that Senna may be better, but I don't like when people don't want to accept that Vettel is seriously good driver if not great. I don't like many drivers on grid, but I accept that they are good drivers. I'm not Hamilton fan(I don't hate him either, I'm just not fan of him), but I would never say that he isn't great or that he needs to prove anything. It's called respect. You don't need to like someone to respect her or him.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:17 am 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
in Senna's day the championship team usually enjoyed a significant advantage over everyone else.

............

very good point, little mistakes are more likely to cost you these days, if you are 2 seconds a lap faster than other cars then you can make a lot of errors and still beat them, do that these days and you won't make it past Q1.


Whilst this is true, Senna's championships came against Prost as his teamate in 1988. Prost and Mansell in a car that was seen as equal to Senna's in 1990. (Senna's car had advantages in certain areas, and the Ferrari was better in others)

1991 he had the best car in terms of reliability, but Mansell's was fastest. If Senna had not raced very well that year he would have not have won, he had to do what Alonso did this year and stay very consistent.

There was always someone he did not enjoy a significant advantage over when he won his titles

Vettel in 2010 and 2012 is the same. 2011 he had the best car by quite a margin, so that is not as impressive he just proved he was better than Webber that year. He still drove very well though.

I think Vettel is a nice guy and a great driver, but for him to be truly regarded in the same breath as Senna for me, he must prove he can beat a more formidable teamate.

Hulkenberg maybe moving next year could be a challenge he needs for his legacy. Moving to Ferrari and beating Alonso would be even better.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:36 am 
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In fairness, in their two years as teammates, Prost beat Senna both times. Even when Senna won the Championship, Prost scored more points. Senna was rewarded by the drop score system.

Berger was a rather Webber-esque teammate too, finishing 4th against Senna. 10 wins I think in what, 13 or 14 years?

I'm not comparing SV to Senna, but I think sometimes people forget the ACTUAL context in which Senna did what he did.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:05 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
In fairness, in their two years as teammates, Prost beat Senna both times. Even when Senna won the Championship, Prost scored more points. Senna was rewarded by the drop score system.

Well a lot of factors went into Prost beating Senna in 1989 (reliability, backmarkers and Japan), 1988 he just played the system to win, they were both aware of what they had to do. (win races, rather than score as many points as possible) but we have all discussed that many times :)

It helped Senna's legacy to go against Prost is what I am saying more and would like to stick to that in relation to Vettel.

I agree with Berger, but I think Vettel at least performing against a new teamate would help his cause to enhance his legacy.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:28 am 
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Had Senna not won against Prost in as his teammate (even though in 2 yrs together he was outscored both times if we adopt the proper points system), Senna would not have anything more going for him than Vettel

Same number of titles, very similar pole and win rates
Best car
Top class grid of drivers
Top rate qualifier
Very good in the wet
Not the top teammates (if I say exclude Prost, as Webber=Berger/de Angelis/Hill)

Not wanting to say Vettel is Senna 2. He is Vettel 1 but whenever people claim Senna did this and Vettel didn't, well actually, did he?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:57 am 
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sennafan24 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
In fairness, in their two years as teammates, Prost beat Senna both times. Even when Senna won the Championship, Prost scored more points. Senna was rewarded by the drop score system.

Well a lot of factors went into Prost beating Senna in 1989 (reliability, backmarkers and Japan), 1988 he just played the system to win, they were both aware of what they had to do. (win races, rather than score as many points as possible) but we have all discussed that many times :)

It helped Senna's legacy to go against Prost is what I am saying more and would like to stick to that in relation to Vettel.

I agree with Berger, but I think Vettel at least performing against a new teamate would help his cause to enhance his legacy.

I don't think its HIS cause. I don't think he's really that concerned about it. You can't be really, its bad for concentration.

I personally don't care to compare drivers of different eras. I analyze drivers by looking at specific skills, and those skills vary from period to period. How you weight those skills in your equation for what makes a "good" driver is entirely dependent on your own opinion, so its kind of futile to argue it with anyone.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:38 am 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
Kolby wrote:
I wouldn't say it like that, Ayrton had to deal with Alain Prost as his teammate in 88 and 89 so he had a tougher challenge not to mention Nigel Mansell in the Williams. While Vettel had to fight against Mark Webber in 2011 and Fernando Alonso in 10' and 12' but it's just my opinion..


but did senna win a title in a grid consiting of 6 world chamapions and do it in not the fastest car?

Firstly he didn't, it consisted of 3(well 4-5 if you considered them future wdc), and when did vettel didn't have the faster car if not the fastest? Redbull was quickest in 2011 and second-half of 2012. But I'm not sure about 2010 though... The qualy pace of that Red Bull at the second-half of the season is staggering, if Alonso hadn't start better I think the championship would be lost right away in the closing stages of the championship.

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Why do you say that? Do you remember who led the 2010 championship for 3/4 of the season? Not Alonso - surely not Vettel, he never led at all until the final race. Not Hamilton or Button. Then who?

Mark Webber.

Perhaps you should rethink that statement.

I guess your right... things go wrong so fast, but didn't the team favor Sebastien more than Mark Webber?

To make it clear, I don't hate the guy nor I'm a fan of him.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:34 am 
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Brilliant comment. Mind blowing. Obviously Vettel is better than senna. Kids are smarter than adults nowadays. They grow up in a different environment and learn more quickly. Senna was born in the 60's, Vettel in the 80's. it really shouldn't be a discussion. It's pointless and can only discredit what Senna accomplished in his era. Drivers today are better. No one said braver, gutsier, or ruthless but the way they grew up, they are able to process things more quickly than anyone born in the 60's. we're talking about operating machinery here, not computing Einsteins formulas.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:14 am 
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Facepalm.

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