planetf1.com

......oh my

Erm... maltrovato?

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

i think people over praise senna, he wasnt as good as you make him out to be imo. put him in a car today and vettel would wipe the floor with him

um the cars today are completely different too much has changed for that argument to hold, maybe though stick vettel in a senna car and see if he can match his times on some of the same circuits

Vettel would have stood great chance of beating Senna in the same car, because of better training methods, simulators etc. available nowadays. This is similar to 100m sprint world records progress over past 20 years. Vettel could have been better, because people had additional 20 years to figure it out. This is also academical argument. You know that they will be never in the same car and despite that you use it against Vettel.

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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
Mark Twain

I'm not holding it against vettel, im saying by simply saying well if senna was in the same car as vettel he would get hammered, of course because the cars are so inherently different. All you can have when comparing drivers with multiple wdc from different eras are opinions, as someone said prost actually outscored senna but the championship wasn't scored the same as it is today does that make prost better? No because they knew the scoring system and that it rewarded wins. Vettel is a great driver no doubt about it my doubt is if he cab be regarded as near the best of all time. him is that he has never been tested against someone anywhere near considered the best in the same car to gauge Webber quite frankly can be quick but no one would consider him the best he is a rung below the top four of alo, ham, rai, vet.

I think it may bother him down the line, all the whispers by critics are bound to whether they are based in truth or not. Whilst I agree comparing drivers is subjective, espicially when its different eras, I think regardless going against a high quality teamate or winning in a car that is not seen as head and shoulders above the rest will always help a drivers legacy.

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http://top-people.starmedia.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYXLYDG9UIHNLBM5HUGVVCGXLLVBLB3BSZQ==/imgAyrton%20Senna2.jpg

Of course it will. But a driver who worries too much about his legacy won't have one worth remembering. And for myself, I don't care what others think will or won't be the legacy of someone still building it. I think "well, its a pity, but what can you do?" and the answer is nothing, so why fret.

I know Seb acknowledges the words of his critics/skeptics. Remember before the podium in Abu Dhabi he said to Kimi, in a mocking voice "maybe now they'll shut up" in reference to his drive through the field? What makes him strong is that he doesn't let that negatively impact his performance, thus far. That's one of the biggest reasons I look up to him.

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Exactly correct. Webber was a real force in 2009 and 2010, he seems to have lost his way slightly in 2011 and 2012.

Webber is not as good as Vettel, but that's not too much of an insult when Vettel draws comparisons against Senna and Schumacher. And justifiably so.

It always seems that way though, because the champions of yesteryear end up competing against new ones when they themselves are past their prime.

Every generation *seems* better than the previous one, for that exact reason.

Seems a tad unfair to criticise Vettel for this. He's driving in the "sustainability" F1 where the major parts often have to last for 3 races, so it makes sense to drive closer to the Prost method, winning at the slowest possible pace. That's the unfortunate reality of modern F1. Alonso doesn't make the car dance either, he can control it on the limit when the back steps out of course, but he's not driving it in the same way Senna did.

The aerodynamic superiority and advances in tyre technology of modern F1 cars makes it harder for drivers to make the cars "dance" in the way that Senna did. It was quite a spectacle but it is something that we won't see again unless engine development is unharnessed by the regulations or aerodynamic and tyre technology is artificially reduced by the regulations to the levels we saw in Senna's era because today's cars still produce less power than the turbo era.

I don't think a driver is inferior because the car moves around less and is thus not as exciting to watch. That brings me to Senna and Prost. I think the former was more popular in part because he was more exciting to watch, and was more popular to an extent disproportionate to his relative ability next to Prost. They were both fine drivers but had very different driving styles.

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"Jean Alesi is using the Maginot Line policy-You shall not pass!"-Murray Walker

I always thought that he was talking about Kimi's win, not his own performance?

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Rosberg - Bottas

Me too. But I guess both can apply.



Vettel will always have critics and skeptics. No matter what he does, they keep coming up with more "challenges" for him to "prove" himself. The fastest car stuff is ridiculous - nobody wins the WDC in a Sauber in this day and age. And then people try to say the STRF was equivalent to the RB cars - nonsense.

Then they say Webber is below par - but who has Alonso raced as a teammate that is not similarly "below par"? One can't count Hamilton as he was a rookie at the time - and he lost anyway. So holding Seb to a different standard is ridiculous.

Then there was the "only win from pole" and then he won from 2nd - "only win from front row" and then he won from 3rd "only win from first two rows" - now we are onto first 3 rows. It is again ever changing so that some argument remains and ridiculous.

Then there is 'can't pass from the midpack' - which he did, then 'can't pass from the back to a podium' - which he did. So now it is he can't pass from last to first place (you know, like Button did the one time - but Alonso and Hamilton never have). Double standards again - so ridiculous.

Anyway, as you can see, the requirements keep changing, so it makes the skeptics and critics look a little lost and their demands ridiculous.

Sebastian Vettel is a Formula One driver of his own making. He is not Alonso, Hamilton, Prost, Raikkonen, Button, Schumacher or Senna. Seb has his own style and his own way of winning. Whatever it is, why should he change or meet a bunch of challenges? His way works for him and has secured a place among the greats through his achievements at just 25 years old.

You can argue till you are blue in the face, but you can't take away what he has achieved. If you don't like his method and manner, style and the legacy he is creating, then pick another driver, I say. There are plenty of drivers out there, someone for everybody.

ROFL




that is all

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He had just said that he came from the back twice, so I think it was about himself. Plus, were many people NOT shutting up about Kimi winning? I don't think the "when will Kimi win?" hype was THAT big.

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I have give him a lot of credit if you scour the previous page. His wins in 2010 and 2012 required a lot of grit and talent.

I do not expect him to win in a Force India or anything, I just think a lot of the critics he gets comes from that he has had the best car in the sport for the past 3 years. I would like to see how he would do in say a Ferrari or Mclaren or any other team. I would have said the same about pretty much any driver on the grid if they had stayed with one top team for a long time.

I agree on people at times always coming up with ways to discredit him, the Abi-Dhabi example that even annoyed me. And there are a lot of double standards he faces, no question.

The thread however is comparing him to Senna, who won multiple races (not championships) in slower cars and won a Championship against a all time great as a teamate. As you said his way works for him, I am just offering ways that would silence the skeptics and critics.

I prefer Lewis and Alonso, and think they are better, but I would not try and discredit Vettel and what he has achieved. He is a very hard working, talented and patient driver.

I also think he is comes across as a nice guy as well. I think all drivers current or present face skeptics and challenges, Vettel does get demonized more than others though, I will give you that.

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http://top-people.starmedia.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYXLYDG9UIHNLBM5HUGVVCGXLLVBLB3BSZQ==/imgAyrton%20Senna2.jpg

I prefer Lewis and Alonso, and think they are better..
.............................

you think slower drivers are better? hamilton had the fastest car in 2012 yet got beat by a red bull, a ferrari and a lotus

You mean the guy who won second most number of races and was leading another two before his car broke down through issues beyond his power to control? The guy who grabbed the most pole positions? Outqualified his team mate 15-5 and outraced his team mate 7/3 when both finished the race? Slower driver? You crazy my man.

Just realised that McLaren only had 50% of the season where both cars finished. Madness.

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

Ah come on man, you're better than this.

I'm not sure he is, I've seen his posting history... I wonder if he realises that his user name is a fitting description of Vettel 2010...

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

I think he was joking, at least I hope so.

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http://top-people.starmedia.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYXLYDG9UIHNLBM5HUGVVCGXLLVBLB3BSZQ==/imgAyrton%20Senna2.jpg

I think Mercedes also only had 10 races when both drivers finished. One of them was a classification only (Schumacher in India), so you say that they both finished in only 9 races. Less than half! Madness indeed, if you consider that we are talking about the top teams

And yet reliability is still at such a high level compared to 20 years ago. I guess we've been spoilt by the invinci-cars of recent times.

Incredible isn't it, McLaren and Merc stuggling to hit 50% race distance over the course of a season, whilst Ferrari struggles to break down!

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

Indeed. Although Ferrari started this on the early 00's. They patented the invincicar!

This is true. Invincicar and Fernando "Consistency" Alonso...

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

Very funny man! I think it was really skilled of you to take one line in a big post out of context just to make a joke!

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"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea."

"It's hammer time!"

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

Greg Moore - Dan Wheldon

in fairness a few of mercs dnf was just schumi ramming peoples backside's

Funny you should say this. I'm missing the racing season so much (and sad enough...) that I actually worked out the points between Schumi and Nico last season, taking into account DNFs !

The points gained by Nico when Schumi didn't finish were 68. The points gained by Schumi when Nico DNF were 0.

Now I know one of those DNFs was Schumi's fault - crashing into the back of another driver, but even so... It explains why I think Schumi far outperformed Nico this season.

And they had something like 45 points difference in the end, right?

Quite. Which is why I always wonder when posters consider Nico to be the superior driver this season.

Schumi was unfortunate (quite apart from all the mechanical breakdowns) that once his car was reliable, it was rarely capable of being near the top of the grid. Whereas Nico earned nearly all his points at the beginning of the season when Schumi's car kept breaking down.

When they did both finish, Schumi beat Nico 7 times, and Nico beat Schumi twice.

Yeah. Some people only chose to remember this year as Schumacher ramming other drivers. The stats say Nico had twice his points. But if you really read into it the truth is quite much different.

Oh well, all said and done now

Which is why I thought it worthwhile pointing out that Schumi lost 68 points in DNFs (to Nico) - 57 in the first 7 races - whereas Nico lost 0 to Schumi in DNFs - plus Schumi beat Nico in 7 races where they both finished compared to Nico's 2.

Probably better posted in the Schumi 'thread/topic', but I thought it would be nice if other posters recognised the reasons behind the points difference.

Excuses. Finish races, otherwise you lose.

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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
Mark Twain

He did have a few mechanical issues, but in china nico was the better driver and was ahead when schumi retired if I'm not mistaken so you can go deeper still in your analysis and probably find arguments either way. Even without the dnfs i remember at the start of the season rosberg looking the better driver, schumi had his moments like Monaco but that was quali his race was a disaster and i don't think that needed to be a dnf either it was a tactical one rosberg still would have second schumi among the back markers.

You cannot deny stats, Vettel keeps on winning and breaking records.

Senna was good but with all people who died, they become overrated.

I remember Jeremy Clarkson on top gear when introducing a new Ferrari sports car:

"Ferrari used to male cars full of power and passion and they'd be great.... and then on lap 2 they'd explode in a shower of passionate sparks and smoke, but now they make their cars using science and maths, and as we know are top of the tree...."

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In India, he won it 4 times
"I was racing, I was faster, I passed him, I WON!"
Those that can, do
Those that can't, boo
14/11/10 Miracle
09/10/11 Double
25/11/12 Treble
27/10/13 Quadruple

Read the stats I posted again. (Summary - Nico gained 68 points when Schumi DNF/Schumi gained 0 when Nico DNF/Nico beat Schumi 2X whereas Schumi beat Nico 7X when both finished).

Additionally, Nico gained 67 of his 93 points in the first 7 races, when Schumi had 5 DNFs, and Nico only beat Schumi once (when they both finished) after the race in Bahrain - the 3rd race of the season!

I honestly think its hard to argue that Nico came anywhere close to Schumi last season.