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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:44 am 
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What is your opinions on Vettel if he would have drove the F2012? Would he have been as competite? Would have done better then Alonso's second place finish shy of three points?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:48 am 
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i think he would of scored more points than alonso at ferrari. would be tight though. its been hard to sperate the best 2 drivers in f1 recently with title fights going down to last race 2 of the past 3 seasons. i hope these 2 drivers can battle it out for years to come still. alonso v vettel can ecipse senna v prost imo


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:00 pm 
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Depends on how he got on with the team. Alonso has a really good relationship with the team and as a result, it makes the task abit easier, knowing you have a good team behind you.

I don't think Vettel would have been that far off. I don't think talent wise, there's that much difference between the two. Certainly not enough to produce a massive difference in points. On top of that, I don't think Alonso made that many driving mistakes that costed him that many points. Maybe a difference of 5 points.

I think they would fair very similarly. Vettel won't be a million miles away like some would like to believe.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:00 pm 
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I think you have to consider we saw the best of Vettel when the Red Bull was at its best, early in the season when the Bull was not so good Webber was close to him in performance and given the Bull was never as bad as the Ferrari i don't think it really stacks up that he would have done as well as Alonso

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I think you have to consider we saw the best of Vettel when the Red Bull was at its best, early in the season when the Bull was not so good Webber was close to him in performance and given the Bull was never as bad as the Ferrari i don't think it really stacks up that he would have done as well as Alonso



yet when the pressure was on vettel produced and won 4 in a row and had some other great drivers through the field whereas alonso was outraced by massa, same a 2010 pressure was on in last race and he choked. im not saying alonso isnt one of the best but vettel handles pressure so much better and is one of the only drivers on the grid not to be beaten by his teammate yet in f1


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:25 pm 
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Vettel's style of driving favours a car, when its performing well, to be firmly planted at the rear end. When he gets this he is easily on a par with Hamilton and Alonso. In first half of the season Mark Webber and Vettel were evenly matched and this was because the rear end of the Bull wasnt that well planted following the loss of EBD. Over the course of the season Newey developed the Coander exhaust for the Bull which increased rear down force and that saw the emergence of Vettel as the superior teammate (extracting regularly an extra few tenths than Webber).

Alonso, in a similar style to Hamilton has the ability to drive around problems more. They both can adapt their driving styles quickly and almost apparently effortlessly to accomodate the behaviour of the car and still extract the maximum.

In the latter half of the season I certainly believe Vettel could have put in a similar sort of performance to Alonso, possibly even had the edge, but in the first half of that season the only person on the track who could have come close to Alonso's performance in that Ferrari in my opinion is Hamilton. I reckon in the first half of the season Vettels performance in that ferrari would have been somewhere in between Alonso's and Massas


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I think you have to consider we saw the best of Vettel when the Red Bull was at its best, early in the season when the Bull was not so good Webber was close to him in performance and given the Bull was never as bad as the Ferrari i don't think it really stacks up that he would have done as well as Alonso


So are you implying that Alonso in the same RBR8 would have beaten Vettel this year?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:43 pm 
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I'd say Alonso would have beaten Vettel in a straight fight in the same car be that the F2012 or the RB8. When it comes to getting a gritty drive out of a mis-performing car I think Alonso is stronger. He can get more out of a car than anyone else on the grid.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think you have to consider we saw the best of Vettel when the Red Bull was at its best, early in the season when the Bull was not so good Webber was close to him in performance and given the Bull was never as bad as the Ferrari i don't think it really stacks up that he would have done as well as Alonso



yet when the pressure was on vettel produced and won 4 in a row and had some other great drivers through the field whereas alonso was outraced by massa, same a 2010 pressure was on in last race and he choked. im not saying alonso isnt one of the best but vettel handles pressure so much better and is one of the only drivers on the grid not to be beaten by his teammate yet in f1


During the period of Massa out racing Alonoso I do feel that Alonso did have pressure on him and it slightly got to him hence the drop in form. However the cards were not on his side and this is when Massa found his form making Alonso look even out paced. In terms of race experience and a car not as good as the RBR this year Alonso did a pretty damn good job. Im not sure Vettel would be the same in an under performing car IMO.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:45 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
I'd say Alonso would have beaten Vettel in a straight fight in the same car be that the F2012 or the RB8. When it comes to getting a gritty drive out of a mis-performing car I think Alonso is stronger. He can get more out of a car than anyone else on the grid.


Spot on I second that!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:47 pm 
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He would have fared better than most drivers, Not nearly as good as Alonso I reckon.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:02 pm 
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ScuderiaFerrari wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
I'd say Alonso would have beaten Vettel in a straight fight in the same car be that the F2012 or the RB8. When it comes to getting a gritty drive out of a mis-performing car I think Alonso is stronger. He can get more out of a car than anyone else on the grid.


Spot on I second that!



yet massa found more than alonso in those last few races ......


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:08 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
ScuderiaFerrari wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
I'd say Alonso would have beaten Vettel in a straight fight in the same car be that the F2012 or the RB8. When it comes to getting a gritty drive out of a mis-performing car I think Alonso is stronger. He can get more out of a car than anyone else on the grid.


Spot on I second that!



yet massa found more than alonso in those last few races ......

So? Webber beat Vettel pretty handily at times as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:12 pm 
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thankfully vettel beat everyone over the season and claimed his 3rd world title, as many as hamilton/alonso/massa and webber put together.

we are lucky to be able to witness one of the true all time greats in vettel.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:14 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
thankfully vettel beat everyone over the season and claimed his 3rd world title, as many as hamilton/alonso/massa and webber put together.

we are lucky to be able to witness one of the true all time greats in vettel.

The question is would he have done it in the Ferrari F2012 and I certainly don't think so.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:16 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think you have to consider we saw the best of Vettel when the Red Bull was at its best, early in the season when the Bull was not so good Webber was close to him in performance and given the Bull was never as bad as the Ferrari i don't think it really stacks up that he would have done as well as Alonso



yet when the pressure was on vettel produced and won 4 in a row and had some other great drivers through the field whereas alonso was outraced by massa, same a 2010 pressure was on in last race and he choked. im not saying alonso isnt one of the best but vettel handles pressure so much better and is one of the only drivers on the grid not to be beaten by his teammate yet in f1

Yes he produced the goods but thats when the car was at its best with the extra downforce, but how would he have coped with the early season Ferrari with its poor downforce, afterall isn't it the extra downforce that allows him to use his special tricks as he puts it, a driving style totally alien to Webber which enables Vettel to dominate him

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:22 pm 
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ScuderiaFerrari wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think you have to consider we saw the best of Vettel when the Red Bull was at its best, early in the season when the Bull was not so good Webber was close to him in performance and given the Bull was never as bad as the Ferrari i don't think it really stacks up that he would have done as well as Alonso


So are you implying that Alonso in the same RBR8 would have beaten Vettel this year?

I think in the first half of the season he would have coped better than Vettel, but when the car is really good so is Vettel, better than Alonso who really knows?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:50 pm 
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Interesting that this thread should pop up.
Just last night I went into a bit of detail on this in the "Which drivers would have won in this year's Red Bull?" thread.
Here's my take on it anyway:

mcdo wrote:
Covalent wrote:
What do you think about Vettel and Alonso switching places?

My honest opinion?

Alonso would have been champ. No doubt in my mind.

I don't think anybody could have done a better job in the 2012 Ferrari - not Hamilton, not Vettel, not anyone. Now don't get me wrong, I think Vettel would have been competitive and, like Alonso, he would have left Massa in his dust. And I think Vettel is faster than Alonso over one lap and probably would start a few races higher up the grid (although this depends on the points I'm about to make about driving style).

I think the frustration of the F2012 would get to him.

I'm thinking purely of driving style. Vettel stated that he couldn't pull his usual tricks with the RB8 (before Singapore obviously) and I don't think he had much confidence in the car. I could only imagine what sort of confidence he would have had in a Ferrari that was liable to change from understeer to oversteer in the middle of a corner.

Gary Anderson often went into detail about Ferrari's problems in his BBC columns and how the Ferrari drivers were constantly sawing at the wheel, whereas the Red Bulls & McLarens were planted to the floor (and this was late in the season - could have been his Suzuka column - can't remember). He more or less said Alonso was still in the title hunt because he just got on with it. He's the king of adapting his driving style (my words, not Gary's) and I don't think many of the other drivers would have adapted to such a poor car. I dread to think what the likes of Jenson Button could have managed in the F2012.

Apparently Alonso was also the first one to figure out how to drive the 2012 Pirellis (I can't remember if it was Gary's column or James Allen's blog where I read this). He figured out pretty quick that they didn't like braking and turning at the same time. So he changed what he was doing - changed to braking first, then turning. Supposedly this took a bit longer for the others to figure out. So in those first few races, with that knowledge in hand and a Red Bull handling much better than the Ferrari, I think he would have collected many more points than he did in reality. And this would have laid the foundation to him building a lead when he got the revised Red Bull in the latter stages of the season.

Pure speculation but I'm basing my opinions on what I have heard/read/seen with my own eyes and putting all this info together.

The great unknown in my speculation is if Alonso can drive a hooked up "Newey-on-his-A-game" Red Bull like Vettel can. Could Alonso use acceleration to plant his car like Vettel can (i.e. the tricks Vettel was talking about)? And would he score 4 victories in a row with a car that stuck to the ground if you put your confidence in it?
Who knows. We know Webber can't do it to the same degree. Personally I think Alonso would be able to adapt and drive the revised RB8 to race victories but this is purely my opinion.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:50 pm 
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I think he'd have shown the same class and form Alonso did in the Italian car, question is, who is in the RedBull? My point being, Vettel may very well have done as well as Alonso in the Ferrari, its my belief he would have, but winning the campionship in it? That all depends on who would have been in the RedBull.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:03 pm 
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I doubt he would have won the title. It's a point that's been re-iterated so many times that I'm bored of making it, but I'm still to be convinced about Vettel's ability in a less competitive car. He certainly looked far less impressive in the first half of 2012 when the Red Bull was less competitive.

Or consider this:
The Red Bull was clearly much superior to the Ferrari across the whole of 2012, yet Vettel only won the title by 3 points.
Vettel was 44 points worse off than Alonso at the halfway point in the season despite having a better car. Even if you add on the 25 points he lost in Valencia he's still behind


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:14 pm 
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Still to be convinced about his ability in a less competative car????

you should review 2008 season.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:20 pm 
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IXIAN wrote:
Still to be convinced about his ability in a less competative car????

you should review 2008 season.

A slight problem there though is the teammate he had who subsequently got dropped from the team after being beat just as easily the following season by a rookie called Buemi, who subsequently got dropped from the Red Bull program because he wasn't considered to be good enough

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
IXIAN wrote:
Still to be convinced about his ability in a less competative car????

you should review 2008 season.

A slight problem there though is the teammate he had who subsequently got dropped from the team after being beat just as easily the following season by a rookie called Buemi, who subsequently got dropped from the Red Bull program because he wasn't considered to be good enough

Bourdais also qualified 4th at Monza. The STR was a very good car at Monza, well suited to the track and it's conditions.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
IXIAN wrote:
Still to be convinced about his ability in a less competative car????

you should review 2008 season.

A slight problem there though is the teammate he had who subsequently got dropped from the team after being beat just as easily the following season by a rookie called Buemi, who subsequently got dropped from the Red Bull program because he wasn't considered to be good enough

Bourdais also qualified 4th at Monza. The STR was a very good car at Monza, well suited to the track and it's conditions.

Yep

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:03 pm 
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And even Webber in the same chassis but with much slower engine was 3rd on the grid. Red Bull chassis was dominant in the wet since 2007 (remember Fuji and Vettel-Webber 2nd/3rd?), first true Newey Red Bull.


On topic. What Vettel would achieve? No pole positions, no race wins, maybe few podiums. He would be shocked how much less downforce Ferrari has than Red Bull, which is 15 kph faster in corners than all other cars (confirmed by Paul Hembery in India), and how unbalanced and difficult to drive it is. In other words, he would struggle.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Vettel would have been a fantastic number 2. Would he have had an accident with Alonso? Quite possibly. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:48 pm 
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As has been discussed elsewhere, an interesting scenario would have been for Vettel and Alonso to have swapped places in 2012, the cars themselves remaining exactly the same with all the quirks etc.

Alonso would have done well in the RB8 and almost certsainly would have won all the races that Vettel himself did. He would also have scored close enough either way in the other points finish races but with two, possibly 3 exceptions. At Spa, Alonso might have achieved the same second place as Vettel did but IMO Alonso would not have been able to fight back to as high positions as Vettel did at Abu Dhabi or Brazil. That is not because I have any doubts about Alonso' talent but just the feeling that the RB8 suits Vettel more than it would suit Alonso. But it would be close.

Vettel in the 2012 Ferrari is more difficult to predict but most importantly, Vettel would have generally qualified in a higher position on the grid in most races than Alonso. I believe that Vettel is really a much better qualifier than Alonso (as is Hamilton). Because of that advantage on the grid and the straight line speed of the Ferrari, Vettel would have won perhaps 1 or 2 more races than Alonso did and so got more points.

Putting Vettel in Massa's car alongside Alonso would have achieved even better results for Vettel IMO, assuming that there was no corporate interference either way. Once again, Vettel would have qualified better and won more races.

Since there were only 3 points between the two of them at the end of the 2012 season, I feel that Vettel would have won the WDC in the Ferrari as well irrespective of which car Alonso drove.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:56 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:40 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
As has been discussed elsewhere, an interesting scenario would have been for Vettel and Alonso to have swapped places in 2012, the cars themselves remaining exactly the same with all the quirks etc.

Alonso would have done well in the RB8 and almost certsainly would have won all the races that Vettel himself did. He would also have scored close enough either way in the other points finish races but with two, possibly 3 exceptions. At Spa, Alonso might have achieved the same second place as Vettel did but IMO Alonso would not have been able to fight back to as high positions as Vettel did at Abu Dhabi or Brazil. That is not because I have any doubts about Alonso' talent but just the feeling that the RB8 suits Vettel more than it would suit Alonso. But it would be close.

Vettel in the 2012 Ferrari is more difficult to predict but most importantly, Vettel would have generally qualified in a higher position on the grid in most races than Alonso. I believe that Vettel is really a much better qualifier than Alonso (as is Hamilton). Because of that advantage on the grid and the straight line speed of the Ferrari, Vettel would have won perhaps 1 or 2 more races than Alonso did and so got more points.

Putting Vettel in Massa's car alongside Alonso would have achieved even better results for Vettel IMO, assuming that there was no corporate interference either way. Once again, Vettel would have qualified better and won more races.

Since there were only 3 points between the two of them at the end of the 2012 season, I feel that Vettel would have won the WDC in the Ferrari as well irrespective of which car Alonso drove.


The Ferrari straightline speed. Which was one of the problems with the car in the first place? I don't think Vettel would have qualified that much further up the grid, if any further up to make much difference come race day. That Ferrari would qualify in an around 7th place. Alonso isn't a bad qualifier, and Vettel hasn't seemed to me to be that much better than him in that area.

Qualifying for me is more about the car than it is the driver. In races, it's a long 50+ lap event. You can benefit from unreliability, different strategies, overtaking etc etc, in quali, you can't do that. It's you and your car. However good your car is, has a massive effect on how good people will think of your're qualifying skills are.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:40 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
As has been discussed elsewhere, an interesting scenario would have been for Vettel and Alonso to have swapped places in 2012, the cars themselves remaining exactly the same with all the quirks etc.

Alonso would have done well in the RB8 and almost certsainly would have won all the races that Vettel himself did. He would also have scored close enough either way in the other points finish races but with two, possibly 3 exceptions. At Spa, Alonso might have achieved the same second place as Vettel did but IMO Alonso would not have been able to fight back to as high positions as Vettel did at Abu Dhabi or Brazil. That is not because I have any doubts about Alonso' talent but just the feeling that the RB8 suits Vettel more than it would suit Alonso. But it would be close.

Vettel in the 2012 Ferrari is more difficult to predict but most importantly, Vettel would have generally qualified in a higher position on the grid in most races than Alonso. I believe that Vettel is really a much better qualifier than Alonso (as is Hamilton). Because of that advantage on the grid and the straight line speed of the Ferrari, Vettel would have won perhaps 1 or 2 more races than Alonso did and so got more points.

Putting Vettel in Massa's car alongside Alonso would have achieved even better results for Vettel IMO, assuming that there was no corporate interference either way. Once again, Vettel would have qualified better and won more races.

Since there were only 3 points between the two of them at the end of the 2012 season, I feel that Vettel would have won the WDC in the Ferrari as well irrespective of which car Alonso drove.

Considering how much Vettel underqualified the Red Bull when it was more difficult to drive i very much doubt he would have overqualified the Ferrari which was a worse car.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:26 pm 
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Less points than Alonso, once Vettel is into the pack he has all sorts of incidents and DNFs.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:32 am 
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I think we should stop Vettel threads until March ... too much Vettel

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:33 am 
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lamo wrote:
Less points than Alonso, once Vettel is into the pack he has all sorts of incidents and DNFs.


Oh really?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:21 am 
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RunningMan wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
As has been discussed elsewhere, an interesting scenario would have been for Vettel and Alonso to have swapped places in 2012, the cars themselves remaining exactly the same with all the quirks etc.

Alonso would have done well in the RB8 and almost certsainly would have won all the races that Vettel himself did. He would also have scored close enough either way in the other points finish races but with two, possibly 3 exceptions. At Spa, Alonso might have achieved the same second place as Vettel did but IMO Alonso would not have been able to fight back to as high positions as Vettel did at Abu Dhabi or Brazil. That is not because I have any doubts about Alonso' talent but just the feeling that the RB8 suits Vettel more than it would suit Alonso. But it would be close.

Vettel in the 2012 Ferrari is more difficult to predict but most importantly, Vettel would have generally qualified in a higher position on the grid in most races than Alonso. I believe that Vettel is really a much better qualifier than Alonso (as is Hamilton). Because of that advantage on the grid and the straight line speed of the Ferrari, Vettel would have won perhaps 1 or 2 more races than Alonso did and so got more points.

Putting Vettel in Massa's car alongside Alonso would have achieved even better results for Vettel IMO, assuming that there was no corporate interference either way. Once again, Vettel would have qualified better and won more races.

Since there were only 3 points between the two of them at the end of the 2012 season, I feel that Vettel would have won the WDC in the Ferrari as well irrespective of which car Alonso drove.


The Ferrari straightline speed. Which was one of the problems with the car in the first place? I don't think Vettel would have qualified that much further up the grid, if any further up to make much difference come race day. That Ferrari would qualify in an around 7th place. Alonso isn't a bad qualifier, and Vettel hasn't seemed to me to be that much better than him in that area.

Qualifying for me is more about the car than it is the driver. In races, it's a long 50+ lap event. You can benefit from unreliability, different strategies, overtaking etc etc, in quali, you can't do that. It's you and your car. However good your car is, has a massive effect on how good people will think of your're qualifying skills are.

I'm very interested in learning your opinion on Senna.

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Vettel would have not subjugated Massa, so they would have been racing one another, which would have put an entirely different spin on the situation over at Ferrari. In addition, Seb has a different personality than Alonso, so I think he'd be more focused on the job at hand and thus, doing a better job at getting a more competitive car from the team. So despite the different dynamic, I think he would have likely won in the F2012 in the current field.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:15 am 
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lamo wrote:
Less points than Alonso, once Vettel is into the pack he has all sorts of incidents and DNFs.


Care to offer some recent DNF examples?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:28 am 
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He would have finished second to red bull.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:39 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
I'd say Alonso would have beaten Vettel in a straight fight in the same car be that the F2012 or the RB8. When it comes to getting a gritty drive out of a mis-performing car I think Alonso is stronger. He can get more out of a car than anyone else on the grid.


:thumbup:
Spot on.
I'd add Hamilton to the list of drivers on the current grid that can drive out of a miss-performing car.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:59 am 
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In the first half of the season - worse than Alonso, in the second part - better than Alonso. On balance - probably the same. However there are few big factors here:

1. Vettel wouldn't want or accept Massa's gearbox "problems" in USA and therefore would probably have 5-10 pts less than Alonso in the end.

2. Vettle will qualify higher than Alonso and probably will have less "bad luck" at the starts.

3. Vettel wouldn't badmouth Ferrari engineers while patting himself on the back and they may have done a better job, ultimately hanging the right car to Vettel to win the championship.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:13 am 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
As has been discussed elsewhere, an interesting scenario would have been for Vettel and Alonso to have swapped places in 2012, the cars themselves remaining exactly the same with all the quirks etc.

Alonso would have done well in the RB8 and almost certsainly would have won all the races that Vettel himself did. He would also have scored close enough either way in the other points finish races but with two, possibly 3 exceptions. At Spa, Alonso might have achieved the same second place as Vettel did but IMO Alonso would not have been able to fight back to as high positions as Vettel did at Abu Dhabi or Brazil. That is not because I have any doubts about Alonso' talent but just the feeling that the RB8 suits Vettel more than it would suit Alonso. But it would be close.

Vettel in the 2012 Ferrari is more difficult to predict but most importantly, Vettel would have generally qualified in a higher position on the grid in most races than Alonso. I believe that Vettel is really a much better qualifier than Alonso (as is Hamilton). Because of that advantage on the grid and the straight line speed of the Ferrari, Vettel would have won perhaps 1 or 2 more races than Alonso did and so got more points.

Putting Vettel in Massa's car alongside Alonso would have achieved even better results for Vettel IMO, assuming that there was no corporate interference either way. Once again, Vettel would have qualified better and won more races.

Since there were only 3 points between the two of them at the end of the 2012 season, I feel that Vettel would have won the WDC in the Ferrari as well irrespective of which car Alonso drove.


The Ferrari straightline speed. Which was one of the problems with the car in the first place? I don't think Vettel would have qualified that much further up the grid, if any further up to make much difference come race day. That Ferrari would qualify in an around 7th place. Alonso isn't a bad qualifier, and Vettel hasn't seemed to me to be that much better than him in that area.

Qualifying for me is more about the car than it is the driver. In races, it's a long 50+ lap event. You can benefit from unreliability, different strategies, overtaking etc etc, in quali, you can't do that. It's you and your car. However good your car is, has a massive effect on how good people will think of your're qualifying skills are.

I'm very interested in learning your opinion on Senna.


I personally have never had the chance to watch senna race. So I can't really comment fairly

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