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I think you have to consider we saw the best of Vettel when the Red Bull was at its best, early in the season when the Bull was not so good Webber was close to him in performance and given the Bull was never as bad as the Ferrari i don't think it really stacks up that he would have done as well as Alonso

I think you have to consider we saw the best of Vettel when the Red Bull was at its best, early in the season when the Bull was not so good Webber was close to him in performance and given the Bull was never as bad as the Ferrari i don't think it really stacks up that he would have done as well as Alonso

yet when the pressure was on vettel produced and won 4 in a row and had some other great drivers through the field whereas alonso was outraced by massa, same a 2010 pressure was on in last race and he choked. im not saying alonso isnt one of the best but vettel handles pressure so much better and is one of the only drivers on the grid not to be beaten by his teammate yet in f1

I'd say Alonso would have beaten Vettel in a straight fight in the same car be that the F2012 or the RB8. When it comes to getting a gritty drive out of a mis-performing car I think Alonso is stronger. He can get more out of a car than anyone else on the grid.

Spot on I second that!

yet massa found more than alonso in those last few races ......

thankfully vettel beat everyone over the season and claimed his 3rd world title, as many as hamilton/alonso/massa and webber put together.

we are lucky to be able to witness one of the true all time greats in vettel.

yet when the pressure was on vettel produced and won 4 in a row and had some other great drivers through the field whereas alonso was outraced by massa, same a 2010 pressure was on in last race and he choked. im not saying alonso isnt one of the best but vettel handles pressure so much better and is one of the only drivers on the grid not to be beaten by his teammate yet in f1

So are you implying that Alonso in the same RBR8 would have beaten Vettel this year?

My honest opinion?

Alonso would have been champ. No doubt in my mind.

I don't think anybody could have done a better job in the 2012 Ferrari - not Hamilton, not Vettel, not anyone. Now don't get me wrong, I think Vettel would have been competitive and, like Alonso, he would have left Massa in his dust. And I think Vettel is faster than Alonso over one lap and probably would start a few races higher up the grid (although this depends on the points I'm about to make about driving style).

I think the frustration of the F2012 would get to him.

I'm thinking purely of driving style. Vettel stated that he couldn't pull his usual tricks with the RB8 (before Singapore obviously) and I don't think he had much confidence in the car. I could only imagine what sort of confidence he would have had in a Ferrari that was liable to change from understeer to oversteer in the middle of a corner.

Gary Anderson often went into detail about Ferrari's problems in his BBC columns and how the Ferrari drivers were constantly sawing at the wheel, whereas the Red Bulls & McLarens were planted to the floor (and this was late in the season - could have been his Suzuka column - can't remember). He more or less said Alonso was still in the title hunt because he just got on with it. He's the king of adapting his driving style (my words, not Gary's) and I don't think many of the other drivers would have adapted to such a poor car. I dread to think what the likes of Jenson Button could have managed in the F2012.

Apparently Alonso was also the first one to figure out how to drive the 2012 Pirellis (I can't remember if it was Gary's column or James Allen's blog where I read this). He figured out pretty quick that they didn't like braking and turning at the same time. So he changed what he was doing - changed to braking first, then turning. Supposedly this took a bit longer for the others to figure out. So in those first few races, with that knowledge in hand and a Red Bull handling much better than the Ferrari, I think he would have collected many more points than he did in reality. And this would have laid the foundation to him building a lead when he got the revised Red Bull in the latter stages of the season.

Pure speculation but I'm basing my opinions on what I have heard/read/seen with my own eyes and putting all this info together.

The great unknown in my speculation is if Alonso can drive a hooked up "Newey-on-his-A-game" Red Bull like Vettel can. Could Alonso use acceleration to plant his car like Vettel can (i.e. the tricks Vettel was talking about)? And would he score 4 victories in a row with a car that stuck to the ground if you put your confidence in it?
Who knows. We know Webber can't do it to the same degree. Personally I think Alonso would be able to adapt and drive the revised RB8 to race victories but this is purely my opinion.

Still to be convinced about his ability in a less competative car????

you should review 2008 season.

A slight problem there though is the teammate he had who subsequently got dropped from the team after being beat just as easily the following season by a rookie called Buemi, who subsequently got dropped from the Red Bull program because he wasn't considered to be good enough

Bourdais also qualified 4th at Monza. The STR was a very good car at Monza, well suited to the track and it's conditions.

As has been discussed elsewhere, an interesting scenario would have been for Vettel and Alonso to have swapped places in 2012, the cars themselves remaining exactly the same with all the quirks etc.

Alonso would have done well in the RB8 and almost certsainly would have won all the races that Vettel himself did. He would also have scored close enough either way in the other points finish races but with two, possibly 3 exceptions. At Spa, Alonso might have achieved the same second place as Vettel did but IMO Alonso would not have been able to fight back to as high positions as Vettel did at Abu Dhabi or Brazil. That is not because I have any doubts about Alonso' talent but just the feeling that the RB8 suits Vettel more than it would suit Alonso. But it would be close.

Vettel in the 2012 Ferrari is more difficult to predict but most importantly, Vettel would have generally qualified in a higher position on the grid in most races than Alonso. I believe that Vettel is really a much better qualifier than Alonso (as is Hamilton). Because of that advantage on the grid and the straight line speed of the Ferrari, Vettel would have won perhaps 1 or 2 more races than Alonso did and so got more points.

Putting Vettel in Massa's car alongside Alonso would have achieved even better results for Vettel IMO, assuming that there was no corporate interference either way. Once again, Vettel would have qualified better and won more races.

Since there were only 3 points between the two of them at the end of the 2012 season, I feel that Vettel would have won the WDC in the Ferrari as well irrespective of which car Alonso drove.

As has been discussed elsewhere, an interesting scenario would have been for Vettel and Alonso to have swapped places in 2012, the cars themselves remaining exactly the same with all the quirks etc.

Alonso would have done well in the RB8 and almost certsainly would have won all the races that Vettel himself did. He would also have scored close enough either way in the other points finish races but with two, possibly 3 exceptions. At Spa, Alonso might have achieved the same second place as Vettel did but IMO Alonso would not have been able to fight back to as high positions as Vettel did at Abu Dhabi or Brazil. That is not because I have any doubts about Alonso' talent but just the feeling that the RB8 suits Vettel more than it would suit Alonso. But it would be close.

Vettel in the 2012 Ferrari is more difficult to predict but most importantly, Vettel would have generally qualified in a higher position on the grid in most races than Alonso. I believe that Vettel is really a much better qualifier than Alonso (as is Hamilton). Because of that advantage on the grid and the straight line speed of the Ferrari, Vettel would have won perhaps 1 or 2 more races than Alonso did and so got more points.

Putting Vettel in Massa's car alongside Alonso would have achieved even better results for Vettel IMO, assuming that there was no corporate interference either way. Once again, Vettel would have qualified better and won more races.

Since there were only 3 points between the two of them at the end of the 2012 season, I feel that Vettel would have won the WDC in the Ferrari as well irrespective of which car Alonso drove.

Less points than Alonso, once Vettel is into the pack he has all sorts of incidents and DNFs.

The Ferrari straightline speed. Which was one of the problems with the car in the first place? I don't think Vettel would have qualified that much further up the grid, if any further up to make much difference come race day. That Ferrari would qualify in an around 7th place. Alonso isn't a bad qualifier, and Vettel hasn't seemed to me to be that much better than him in that area.

Qualifying for me is more about the car than it is the driver. In races, it's a long 50+ lap event. You can benefit from unreliability, different strategies, overtaking etc etc, in quali, you can't do that. It's you and your car. However good your car is, has a massive effect on how good people will think of your're qualifying skills are.

Less points than Alonso, once Vettel is into the pack he has all sorts of incidents and DNFs.

I'd say Alonso would have beaten Vettel in a straight fight in the same car be that the F2012 or the RB8. When it comes to getting a gritty drive out of a mis-performing car I think Alonso is stronger. He can get more out of a car than anyone else on the grid.

I'm very interested in learning your opinion on Senna.