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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:08 pm 
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You know this could work to Webber's advantage.

It a long shot, but with the new regulations in 2014, it may be pot-luck in many ways to what team has the advantage, so if we play by the odds, in 2013 he is almost definitely going to be in the best car, and for 2014 if he leaves he maybe no worse off than if he would have stayed.

I do not think Red Bull will be that crap in 2014, but anything can happen, look at Mclaren in 2009 when they were strong in 2008. Ferrari as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
zoomsthru wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
As I said before, it is just my own feeling and others are not bound to agree. He comes across as forthright but that does not mean that he is saying everything he feels. To put it in another way, if I was an F1 driver and someone asked me which driver in this particular grid I did not want to be my teammate, I would unhesitatingly point to Webber. I am NOT claiming that he is a bad guy but the feeling that with Webber you just don't know where you are. He comes across as too much of an island despite his occasional "mateyness". For all their faults and idiosyncrasies, guys like Raikkonen, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel etc do not project that feeling.

But, also as I have said, I don't doubt his driving ability one bit. In fact, in my opinion with more commitment Webber could have achieved better results.


I tend to agree. Webber is more forthcoming when criticising someone than when praising them, but given people's reluctance in talking highly of a rival, I won't fault him much for that. I feel that he is the perfect partner for Seb at Red Bull - a "natural" number 2 but quick enough to keep him honest.

However, I do believe he should have been more supportive of Vettel in the final race of the season when he really had nothing to play for. Instead, he cut him off at the start and tried a reckless pass on him after the safety car restart. This doesn't make him a good team player, and points to a bit of disregard for his team-mate, Vettel's race-engineers and all the staff at Milton Keynes who really wanted that WDC. This is especially egregious given that Vettel actually helped Webber in the 2010 Hungarian GP (and incurred a penalty in the attempt) when they were fighting each other in the championship. To those who insist that Webber owes nothing to Vettel and he needs to look after himself, I say that even if he doesn't care much for Seb, he should be supportive of the desire of the Red Bull team to win the WDC with one of their drivers.

But getting to the original question of whether Webber should have signed - a lot of people have summed it up nicely pointing that this was his best option. And until Brazil, I was convinced that Webber was the best option for Red Bull too, but now I'm not so sure...


Pretty much agree with everything here except I don't think Vettel was trying to help Webber in Hungary 10. Could stand corrected though I don't remember all the facts. Webber wen't know a lot in my estimation as a team player after Brazil . Kind of like Coulthard he is a very good driver on his day but can also be prone to clumsiness or just going missing.


There is no direct admission of the fact regarding the '10 Hungarian GP, but there were a few articles which strongly hinted at that, such as this one:
http://plus.autosport.com/premium/featu ... ght-thing/

Since most will not have access to this content, I'll summarise and quote the meat of Jonathan Noble's article:
The discussion was just before the Abu Dhabi race in 2010 when Webber was 8 points behind Alonso in the standings, and Vettel a further 7 points adrift. The article asks whether Vettel would allow Webber to pass him if there was a situation where the German had no chance of winning, but could help his teammate clinch the WDC. Noble ends the article saying:

Quote:
Even in the heat of their troubled relationship this year, I have it on very good authority that there has been one occasion this season where Vettel already did the 'right thing' for the team – and that means the 'right thing' ultimately for Webber – even though it ultimately meant the young German's own title ambitions took a bit of a hit.

I'm not at liberty to say when that was, only the man himself can do that, but should he need to do the right thing again in Abu Dhabi, then have no doubts he will do it. Maybe then we will come to appreciate how it is Vettel who has played the team game all year.


Assuming this is accurate, the incident referred to is most likely the Hungarian GP. In response to v@sh, even Seb falling asleep behind the safety car is non inconsistent with his attempt to help Webber.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:48 pm 
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sennafan24 wrote:
You know this could work to Webber's advantage.

It a long shot, but with the new regulations in 2014, it may be pot-luck in many ways to what team has the advantage, so if we play by the odds, in 2013 he is almost definitely going to be in the best car, and for 2014 if he leaves he maybe no worse off than if he would have stayed.

I do not think Red Bull will be that crap in 2014, but anything can happen, look at Mclaren in 2009 when they were strong in 2008. Ferrari as well.


You might as well put all your money on Adrian Newey. He has the best chance of making the best car.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:18 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
sennafan24 wrote:
You know this could work to Webber's advantage.

It a long shot, but with the new regulations in 2014, it may be pot-luck in many ways to what team has the advantage, so if we play by the odds, in 2013 he is almost definitely going to be in the best car, and for 2014 if he leaves he maybe no worse off than if he would have stayed.

I do not think Red Bull will be that crap in 2014, but anything can happen, look at Mclaren in 2009 when they were strong in 2008. Ferrari as well.


You might as well put all your money on Adrian Newey. He has the best chance of making the best car.


Have to say the same because in the example Eva uses, which other team leapt to the front with Honda/Brawn after a medicore 2008? Red Bull with Adrian Newey.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:39 pm 
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sixwheeler wrote:
Interesting discussion.

I think Webber was thoroughly shafted in favour of Vettel in 2010. Remember some of the stupid things Vettel did that year, including taking himself out and nearly Mark as well. The way the team reacted with sympathy when he got back to the pits demonstrated clearly where their preferences lie. If it had been the other way around Mark would not have been treated the same. In fact he probably would have been history. They always do a bit more for Vettel than they do for Webber, and that goes down well with the RB hierarchy.

There's a lot goes on behind the scenes that outsiders don't get to hear about, and I think Mark Webber has done very well to hang in there, because he's at a disadvantage. They manage to hide it very well, but in a sense Helmut Marco has now stepped out of line revealing the true state of affairs. I bet Christian wasn't best pleased when he found out what was said. He's done a fine job of masking the favoured position of Vettel. He'll still deny it of course. I can't wait to see his body language when he's asked about it on camera, as he surely will be.

Most of the time Webber hasn't quite got the edge that Vettel has, but he's not far off. His drives around places like Monaco show that very clearly. He's had the occasional off-day, but who hasn't? Only Alonso this year, and even he won't be able to keep that up forever. From Webber's point of view though, he's got to overcome the disadvantage of being treated as the number two, as well as beating all the other drivers. He could still yet come through, but it's tough. As for signing the contract with RBR, definitely yes. He's in the best team he could be and they've got the best team mate they could have for Vettel. Whoever takes Webbers place will probably come via Torro Rosso.

I have a different perspective on this.

I found the 2010 Turkey incident very telling in terms of Webber's attitude. Vettel was told he could pass Webber and Webber was told to let Vettel through. The order was given on the basis that Webber was in fuel-saving mode and Vettel wasn't and if Vettel remained behind Webber in that situation he was vulnerable to the McLarens. Now whether there is agreement that that was actually the case, both teammates were told what was to happen by the team. Vettel then went to execute the overtake assuming Webber would let him through but Webber didn't. Of the two it was only Webber who could have avoided the accident in that situation without serious compromise by backing out a bit because Vettel was committed. Instead of doing that he preferred to fight and an accident ensued that cost the team in total serious points. At best it was bad communication by the team in not making it clear to either Vettel that his teammate wasn't going to put up a fight or in not making it clear to Webber that he was to actually let Vettel through; at worst it was Webber being bloody-minded and stubborn.

However, what really highlighted Webber's attitude was the way he managed it afterward. Instead of saying that it was a badly handled situation and something the team and drivers would learn from, he chose to paint himself as the victim and be spiteful about the whole thing. Even if what he was saying was the truth it was bad behaviour to effectively slander his own team in public. However the fact that it wasn't the truth made it extremely poor form and just highlighted a massive chip on his shoulder.

The team being sympathetic to Vettel when he returned to the pits is not telling of anything. Of course they're going to be sympathetic when their driver's race had ended regardless of the circumstances. Even when a driver has done something truly idiotic I've never seen a team abuse them upon return to the pits.

I don't believe that any preference for Vettel compromised Webber at all in 2010. Red Bull allowed their drivers to race right up until the very end while both were in the championship hunt. They never made Webber play a supporting role of any sort to his teammate. As an aside it's interesting to me as well that in Brazil Webber was implying that the team should have made Vettel pull over for him because he was their best chance for the championship despite the fact that both drivers were still in with a genuine chance. Yet when the shoe is on the other foot, and he's actually mathematically out of the world championship, he doesn't play the team game properly at all. Talk about hypocrisy.

Subsequent to 2010 and 2011 because Webber was absolutely nowhere near Vettel that year, I don't see any problem with Red Bull having a genuine preference towards Vettel. He had two world championships to Webber's none and he had showed that he could sustain his performance over the season, overcome the adversity of mechanical failures and that given an opportunity will capitalise every single time where Webber simply doesn't have that consistency nor can he handle that level of pressure. To paraphrase what Irvine said about Schumacher, "of course the team preferenced him - he was the better driver by quite a bit!" However, while Red Bull might preference Vettel in terms of the direction of car development (and I'm still not sure that is the case - I rather think Newey directs a build of the car he thinks is the best and it just suits Vettel more), I've still never seen them actively compromise Webber in the process. They've never had him pull over for his teammate before he was mathematically out of the championship and even then only when it was absolutely crucial. There's no strategic compromise in either qualifying or the race.

They've also maintained a very professional attitude about him despite his own behaviour. When he said, "not bad for a number 2 driver" at Silverstone in 2010 they didn't react. And when he didn't even come close to being a team player and actually compromised his teammate in Brazil 2012 they didn't come out and say anything negative at all.

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Last edited by Jo_ on Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:40 pm 
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Don't forget that the big Aero changes have been scrapped.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:21 am 
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Great post kai_ :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:09 am 
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I have never read anything, anywhere that suggests Webber was told to let Vettel through. Can you source this kai? My memory of the time is that Webber was told to turn down his fuel and that Vettel was told to turn his up, but neither was informed of the message to the other. Webber in my recollection was never explicitly told to move over for Vettel, and why should he have done? 12 laps away from a third straight victory, no evidence to suggest the McLarens were even a remote threat, but saving fuel in case they became one closer to the end. Red Bull clumsily tried to orchestrate a Vettel victory at a time when his stocks were quite low, and it backfired. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:21 am 
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kai_ wrote:
sixwheeler wrote:
Interesting discussion.

I think Webber was thoroughly shafted in favour of Vettel in 2010. Remember some of the stupid things Vettel did that year, including taking himself out and nearly Mark as well. The way the team reacted with sympathy when he got back to the pits demonstrated clearly where their preferences lie. If it had been the other way around Mark would not have been treated the same. In fact he probably would have been history. They always do a bit more for Vettel than they do for Webber, and that goes down well with the RB hierarchy.

There's a lot goes on behind the scenes that outsiders don't get to hear about, and I think Mark Webber has done very well to hang in there, because he's at a disadvantage. They manage to hide it very well, but in a sense Helmut Marco has now stepped out of line revealing the true state of affairs. I bet Christian wasn't best pleased when he found out what was said. He's done a fine job of masking the favoured position of Vettel. He'll still deny it of course. I can't wait to see his body language when he's asked about it on camera, as he surely will be.

Most of the time Webber hasn't quite got the edge that Vettel has, but he's not far off. His drives around places like Monaco show that very clearly. He's had the occasional off-day, but who hasn't? Only Alonso this year, and even he won't be able to keep that up forever. From Webber's point of view though, he's got to overcome the disadvantage of being treated as the number two, as well as beating all the other drivers. He could still yet come through, but it's tough. As for signing the contract with RBR, definitely yes. He's in the best team he could be and they've got the best team mate they could have for Vettel. Whoever takes Webbers place will probably come via Torro Rosso.

I have a different perspective on this.

I found the 2010 Turkey incident very telling in terms of Webber's attitude. Vettel was told he could pass Webber and Webber was told to let Vettel through . The order was given on the basis that Webber was in fuel-saving mode and Vettel wasn't and if Vettel remained behind Webber in that situation he was vulnerable to the McLarens.


Kai: I also do not recall any such orders being publicized or even hinted at. Do you have any support for that claim?
Since the rest of your post more-or-less hinges on that one incident you'd need to be able to back that up.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:11 am 
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The youtube video that was my source for this has long since been taken down by FOM. What it included was the radio message to Vettel that basically explained that Webber was in fuel saving mode and that he wouldn't fight Vettel making an overtake. I remember at the time the sequence of events supported this being the case. Initially Red Bull criticised Webber for causing the incident with Horner saying that he hadn't spoken to him about it and would do so. Subsequently Horner said that the message was badly communicated by Webber's engineer. I took that to mean (and I think it is indeed common sense to say) that Horner had had the discussion with Webber and Webber's position had been that he did not understand the message from his race engineer.

Remember at the time that team orders were illegal so Red Bull could not actually order Webber to let Vettel through and vice versa nor make any public comment that indicated they were ordering anything and that therefore any such messages were coded and they were cautious about what they said in public, regardless of the legitimacy of the situation. Red Bull have used the 'fight' terminology on a few occasions; it seems to be their version of Ferrari's 'faster'.

So at best it was bad communication; at worst Webber used the communication to claim he didn't understand the message. Now I personally believe the latter based on the subsequent comments he's made and the way he's managed future situations like that.

My point, however, doesn't hinge on the specifics of the communication and whether Webber was actually told to let Vettel through or whether he was just informed about the situation, which is most certainly available in various articles. My point is that Webber made himself out to be the victim of that and was really rude about it after any internal discussions took place and he would have known the reality of the situation. That was really poor from a professional sense and also, I felt, gave quite an insight into his mentality.

My other point is that regardless of what he was or wasn't told he was the only driver of the two in a position to avoid that incident. The smart thing to do would have been for him to back off and not fight Vettel and then, if he really was annoyed that Vettel had tried such an (in his view) aggressive and ill-handled overtake he should have discussed that with the team over the radio and after the race. Instead he stuck in the battle and both teammates could have had such a severe accident that they ended up out of the race - that was very close to happening. Often drivers are criticised for staying in situations like that (for example Hamilton/Maldonado at Valencia or any number of Schumacher incidents) and that's when they're racing drivers from other teams, not even their own teammate.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:34 am 
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ManojHS wrote:
In the light of Marko's comments that Webber will continue with his role of no2 and there will be "no change in balance of power", I think Webber should not have signed with RBR for 2013. It is quite clear that he will have no chance in winning the championship, he could've moved to a team like Lotus or Williams.


http://www.planet-f1.com/driver/18227/8 ... number-two

Opinions?


It is his choice. Maybe he still thinks he can achieve the most with them. Move to other team would be risky as well, probably only move to Ferrari would give him high enough chance to win races and the title but he would have to partner Alonso and it doesn't look so much different that partnering Vettel in RBR ;). Mark is a nice guy and I wouldn't mind him winning the WDC but somehow I think he already knows, that in the current "F1 order" he is unlikely to win it.

But maybe he knows something that we don't :-P. I think that even in RBR, if Vettel's season somehow would be a catastrophe and was way off the road to win the championship (ie. due to reliability) and Webber would be the real contender, then they would help him to snatch WDC.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:07 am 
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kai_ wrote:
I found the 2010 Turkey incident very telling in terms of Webber's attitude. Vettel was told he could pass Webber and Webber was told to let Vettel through. The order was given on the basis that Webber was in fuel-saving mode and Vettel wasn't and if Vettel remained behind Webber in that situation he was vulnerable to the McLarens. Now whether there is agreement that that was actually the case, both teammates were told what was to happen by the team. Vettel then went to execute the overtake assuming Webber would let him through but Webber didn't. Of the two it was only Webber who could have avoided the accident in that situation without serious compromise by backing out a bit because Vettel was committed. Instead of doing that he preferred to fight and an accident ensued that cost the team in total serious points. At best it was bad communication by the team in not making it clear to either Vettel that his teammate wasn't going to put up a fight or in not making it clear to Webber that he was to actually let Vettel through; at worst it was Webber being bloody-minded and stubborn.

That is not the same accident that I saw.

Vettel thought the pass was complete, but it wasn't. He jinked right, preparing for the upcoming left-hand corner. It was a Grosjean-esque misreading of where his car was relative to Webber's.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:20 am 
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@Kai:

So what you appear to be saying is that your personal opinion of MW would be higher *if*
a) He obeyed an illegal order
b) He allowed SV to pass him without resisting
c) He remained silent?

Don't conveniently forget that MW is/was on record at resisting 'team orders', he maintained his line/straight line to defend 1st position, SV veered right leading to the contact, SV was the one doing the 'crazy' finger sign immediately afterwards, and in interviews afterwards MW was saying things like 'learning as a team to be in this position' etc.

Your post reads that anything short of 100% acquiescence (and silence) from MW leads you to form the opinion that he is petulant and paints himself as a victim?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:09 am 
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mcdo wrote:
kai_ wrote:
I found the 2010 Turkey incident very telling in terms of Webber's attitude. Vettel was told he could pass Webber and Webber was told to let Vettel through. The order was given on the basis that Webber was in fuel-saving mode and Vettel wasn't and if Vettel remained behind Webber in that situation he was vulnerable to the McLarens. Now whether there is agreement that that was actually the case, both teammates were told what was to happen by the team. Vettel then went to execute the overtake assuming Webber would let him through but Webber didn't. Of the two it was only Webber who could have avoided the accident in that situation without serious compromise by backing out a bit because Vettel was committed. Instead of doing that he preferred to fight and an accident ensued that cost the team in total serious points. At best it was bad communication by the team in not making it clear to either Vettel that his teammate wasn't going to put up a fight or in not making it clear to Webber that he was to actually let Vettel through; at worst it was Webber being bloody-minded and stubborn.

That is not the same accident that I saw.

Vettel thought the pass was complete, but it wasn't. He jinked right, preparing for the upcoming left-hand corner. It was a Grosjean-esque misreading of where his car was relative to Webber's.

Based on Vettel believing his teammate would not fight him he assumed Webber would have backed off and therefore moved to the right to prepare assuming Webber wouldn't be there. Same visuals but a different motivation for the manoeuvre from Vettel.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:12 am 
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kai_ wrote:
mcdo wrote:
kai_ wrote:
I found the 2010 Turkey incident very telling in terms of Webber's attitude. Vettel was told he could pass Webber and Webber was told to let Vettel through. The order was given on the basis that Webber was in fuel-saving mode and Vettel wasn't and if Vettel remained behind Webber in that situation he was vulnerable to the McLarens. Now whether there is agreement that that was actually the case, both teammates were told what was to happen by the team. Vettel then went to execute the overtake assuming Webber would let him through but Webber didn't. Of the two it was only Webber who could have avoided the accident in that situation without serious compromise by backing out a bit because Vettel was committed. Instead of doing that he preferred to fight and an accident ensued that cost the team in total serious points. At best it was bad communication by the team in not making it clear to either Vettel that his teammate wasn't going to put up a fight or in not making it clear to Webber that he was to actually let Vettel through; at worst it was Webber being bloody-minded and stubborn.

That is not the same accident that I saw.

Vettel thought the pass was complete, but it wasn't. He jinked right, preparing for the upcoming left-hand corner. It was a Grosjean-esque misreading of where his car was relative to Webber's.

Based on Vettel believing his teammate would not fight him he assumed Webber would have backed off and therefore moved to the right to prepare assuming Webber wouldn't be there. Same visuals but a different motivation for the manoeuvre from Vettel.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:20 am 
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BRAIN OF IRELAND wrote:
@Kai:

So what you appear to be saying is that your personal opinion of MW would be higher *if*
a) He obeyed an illegal order
b) He allowed SV to pass him without resisting
c) He remained silent?

Don't conveniently forget that MW is/was on record at resisting 'team orders', he maintained his line/straight line to defend 1st position, SV veered right leading to the contact, SV was the one doing the 'crazy' finger sign immediately afterwards, and in interviews afterwards MW was saying things like 'learning as a team to be in this position' etc.

Your post reads that anything short of 100% acquiescence (and silence) from MW leads you to form the opinion that he is petulant and paints himself as a victim?

That is NOT what I said at all nor is that my position and I absolutely hate it when people put words in my mouth or form their own interpretation of what I say when I got to great lengths to be absolutely clear about the point that I'm making.

I stated that the sensible thing for Webber to do would have been to back off in that situation rather than potentially take out him and his teammate.

I also stated that my issue was with how Webber handled the situation afterwards, which I believe based on my understanding of the situation was merely him unjustifiably playing the victim and being spiteful and slandering his team for no apparent reason other than his own chip on his shoulder. Even if the situation was not of Webber's doing and it was miscommunication from his race engineer then there was no reason for him to behave the way that he did.

Formula 1 is a team sport before an individual sport. The team's interests come before the driver. Now yes I believe that when drivers are annoyed with their own team they should shut their mouths about it. But in this case he had no justification to say the things he said anyway. He was at best not a team player and at worst a petulant child.

As for the team orders issue. In theory in 2010 if teammate B was following teammate A and teammate A suddenly developed a problem, the team could not state on the radio to teammate B that he should pass teammate A or to teammate A that he should let teammate B through because that would technically be team orders. Now common sense would tend to suggest that that was not a team orders situation, but a team could be hauled over the coals for it. The fuel saving situation was akin to this one - ie a technical reason why one driver should let the other through. But due to the rules Red Bull still had to be careful about what they said.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:00 pm 
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kai_ wrote:
BRAIN OF IRELAND wrote:
@Kai:

So what you appear to be saying is that your personal opinion of MW would be higher *if*
a) He obeyed an illegal order
b) He allowed SV to pass him without resisting
c) He remained silent?

Don't conveniently forget that MW is/was on record at resisting 'team orders', he maintained his line/straight line to defend 1st position, SV veered right leading to the contact, SV was the one doing the 'crazy' finger sign immediately afterwards, and in interviews afterwards MW was saying things like 'learning as a team to be in this position' etc.

Your post reads that anything short of 100% acquiescence (and silence) from MW leads you to form the opinion that he is petulant and paints himself as a victim?

That is NOT what I said at all nor is that my position and I absolutely hate it when people put words in my mouth or form their own interpretation of what I say when I got to great lengths to be absolutely clear about the point that I'm making.

I stated that the sensible thing for Webber to do would have been to back off in that situation rather than potentially take out him and his teammate.

I also stated that my issue was with how Webber handled the situation afterwards, which I believe based on my understanding of the situation was merely him unjustifiably playing the victim and being spiteful and slandering his team for no apparent reason other than his own chip on his shoulder. Even if the situation was not of Webber's doing and it was miscommunication from his race engineer then there was no reason for him to behave the way that he did.

Formula 1 is a team sport before an individual sport. The team's interests come before the driver. Now yes I believe that when drivers are annoyed with their own team they should shut their mouths about it. But in this case he had no justification to say the things he said anyway. He was at best not a team player and at worst a petulant child.

As for the team orders issue. In theory in 2010 if teammate B was following teammate A and teammate A suddenly developed a problem, the team could not state on the radio to teammate B that he should pass teammate A or to teammate A that he should let teammate B through because that would technically be team orders. Now common sense would tend to suggest that that was not a team orders situation, but a team could be hauled over the coals for it. The fuel saving situation was akin to this one - ie a technical reason why one driver should let the other through. But due to the rules Red Bull still had to be careful about what they said.


Yes - you have gone to lengths to explain your points, however being absolutely clear is unrealistic (except perhaps in your own mind) as we aren't discussing black letter law - its all about the manner of how he handled the incident - a very grey area depending on your perspective.

The rest I'll just leave, as I 100% disagree with your other points and to continue is pointless.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:06 pm 
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kai_ wrote:
mcdo wrote:
kai_ wrote:
I found the 2010 Turkey incident very telling in terms of Webber's attitude. Vettel was told he could pass Webber and Webber was told to let Vettel through. The order was given on the basis that Webber was in fuel-saving mode and Vettel wasn't and if Vettel remained behind Webber in that situation he was vulnerable to the McLarens. Now whether there is agreement that that was actually the case, both teammates were told what was to happen by the team. Vettel then went to execute the overtake assuming Webber would let him through but Webber didn't. Of the two it was only Webber who could have avoided the accident in that situation without serious compromise by backing out a bit because Vettel was committed. Instead of doing that he preferred to fight and an accident ensued that cost the team in total serious points. At best it was bad communication by the team in not making it clear to either Vettel that his teammate wasn't going to put up a fight or in not making it clear to Webber that he was to actually let Vettel through; at worst it was Webber being bloody-minded and stubborn.

That is not the same accident that I saw.

Vettel thought the pass was complete, but it wasn't. He jinked right, preparing for the upcoming left-hand corner. It was a Grosjean-esque misreading of where his car was relative to Webber's.

Based on Vettel believing his teammate would not fight him he assumed Webber would have backed off and therefore moved to the right to prepare assuming Webber wouldn't be there. Same visuals but a different motivation for the manoeuvre from Vettel.

I could be wrong but I don't think there was any sort of order given to Mark to give the place up.

Anyway, what's your opinion of the McLaren battle that took place afterwards?

If I'm not mistaken they were both told to go into fuel save mode but Jenson had other ideas and went for the pass. The battle was clean and fair but Lewis was very unhappy at the situation.

Should Lewis have given the place up to Jenson because McLaren told him to go into fuel save mode? Or was he right to take back his lead and go on to win the grand prix?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:58 pm 
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didn't Weber get a new Race Engineer the next race?

Seem to remember something about a message that was supposed to be given that never was and the RE took the blame.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:11 pm 
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kai_ wrote:
The youtube video that was my source for this has long since been taken down by FOM. What it included was the radio message to Vettel that basically explained that Webber was in fuel saving mode and that he wouldn't fight Vettel making an overtake. I remember at the time the sequence of events supported this being the case. Initially Red Bull criticised Webber for causing the incident with Horner saying that he hadn't spoken to him about it and would do so. Subsequently Horner said that the message was badly communicated by Webber's engineer. I took that to mean (and I think it is indeed common sense to say) that Horner had had the discussion with Webber and Webber's position had been that he did not understand the message from his race engineer.

Remember at the time that team orders were illegal so Red Bull could not actually order Webber to let Vettel through and vice versa nor make any public comment that indicated they were ordering anything and that therefore any such messages were coded and they were cautious about what they said in public, regardless of the legitimacy of the situation. Red Bull have used the 'fight' terminology on a few occasions; it seems to be their version of Ferrari's 'faster'.

So at best it was bad communication; at worst Webber used the communication to claim he didn't understand the message. Now I personally believe the latter based on the subsequent comments he's made and the way he's managed future situations like that.

My point, however, doesn't hinge on the specifics of the communication and whether Webber was actually told to let Vettel through or whether he was just informed about the situation, which is most certainly available in various articles. My point is that Webber made himself out to be the victim of that and was really rude about it after any internal discussions took place and he would have known the reality of the situation. That was really poor from a professional sense and also, I felt, gave quite an insight into his mentality.

My other point is that regardless of what he was or wasn't told he was the only driver of the two in a position to avoid that incident. The smart thing to do would have been for him to back off and not fight Vettel and then, if he really was annoyed that Vettel had tried such an (in his view) aggressive and ill-handled overtake he should have discussed that with the team over the radio and after the race. Instead he stuck in the battle and both teammates could have had such a severe accident that they ended up out of the race - that was very close to happening. Often drivers are criticised for staying in situations like that (for example Hamilton/Maldonado at Valencia or any number of Schumacher incidents) and that's when they're racing drivers from other teams, not even their own teammate.

I seem to recall though that the actual contact was made when Vettel cut across abruptly in front of Webber's car before he had properly cleared him, he had passed Webber, he had the inside position on Webber for the next corner, he just wanted to much of the track that was available to him, it seemed similar to the Karthikeyan incident where he thought the other car should simply disappear, i would call both a misjudgement on his part.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:08 pm 
It's been 3 years guys, none of you are going to change each others' minds about Turkey 2010. Particularly if you can't provide a solid source for your claims. Please get back on topic.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:06 pm 
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hittheapex wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
sennafan24 wrote:
You know this could work to Webber's advantage.

It a long shot, but with the new regulations in 2014, it may be pot-luck in many ways to what team has the advantage, so if we play by the odds, in 2013 he is almost definitely going to be in the best car, and for 2014 if he leaves he maybe no worse off than if he would have stayed.

I do not think Red Bull will be that crap in 2014, but anything can happen, look at Mclaren in 2009 when they were strong in 2008. Ferrari as well.


You might as well put all your money on Adrian Newey. He has the best chance of making the best car.


Have to say the same because in the example Eva uses, which other team leapt to the front with Honda/Brawn after a medicore 2008? Red Bull with Adrian Newey.


Yeah, good point.

You have to go with form and previous success.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:24 am 
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Ferrari were interested, but RBR had won 2 WCC's and 2 WDC's... McLaren, while they had a solid car, seemingly weren't shopping for Webber. Ferrari hasn't really had a front running car proper in several years now. I mean 2010 was close, but no cookie, if you get my drift. RBR on balance, with Horner not playing favourites, is the best place to be for Webbo, especially now when he's reaching towards the end of his career (3 years or so at the most?). Webber is quick, no doubt! However, he's one of the senior drivers (he's 36) now in the field and it is a proper question mark when it comes to longevity of his stay in the field. Even if he's physically fit enough, will he be a in a mental state to soldier on? Worse still, will he get competitive drives in future, as he further moves towards end of his career?

While there will be critics, i will say his decision to stay put at RBR is much more considered and well thought out than Lewis's to Mercedes. I may be wrong, but given the evidence, this is what i think/ believe!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:56 pm 
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kai_ wrote:
I have a different perspective on this.

I found the 2010 Turkey incident very telling in terms of Webber's attitude. Vettel was told he could pass Webber and Webber was told to let Vettel through.


Really!!!

You were either making that up or you were watching a different race.

Vettel swerved into Webbers car as he came up alongside, which must at the very least have taken Webber by surprise. His own skill and reflexes enabled him to survive the collision. I think most people can make up their own mind who was the plonker on that occasion.



I also think Vettel is a great driver, and a great guy as well. I just watched him do a couple of interviews yesterday and he comes over very well. But I don't let my enthusiasm extend to making stuff up to justify denigrating others in favour of him.

Judging by the latest quotes I've read, Helmut Marco seems to be trying to de-stabalise Webber's position at RBR. Which seems a rather odd thing to do. "Not bad for a number two" pales into insignificance in comparison.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:18 pm 
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A better question might be: "Should RBR have offered Mark a new contract?"

For me, the answer depends on your view. In terms of actual team performance, i.e. taking "Humaness" into account, maybe keeping Mark around to be number 2 to Sebastian isn't a bad idea. After all, three WCC's don't lie, do they?

In terms of hypothetical driver quality, definitely not. In an RBR built for him, Lewis could definitely do far better than Mark and could quite possibly beat Sebastian. The same could be said for Kimi, though Lotus made very sure he was staying.

So, in the end, I think Mark fits the RBR need, but isn't the best driver that could be there, not nearly.

To be honest, and this has nothing to do with his results, Mark frustrates me immensely. He often declares that he refuses to be Sebastian's number two, yet when he's indirectly told to kindly move over, he does. I don't mind him refusing to be number two. I don't mind RBR telling him to move over. It just bothers me that Mark creates all these ructions only to fall into line in the end. For what? To make it better inside? I don't know.

Regardless, in the end, Mark and RBR both made a decision to continue together. Sebastian (of whom I am NOT a fan,just btw) will be Number 1, Mark will be Number 2, 3 or 4. The rest, we can only speculate on.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:42 am 
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ManojHS wrote:
In the light of Marko's comments that Webber will continue with his role of no2 and there will be "no change in balance of power", I think Webber should not have signed with RBR for 2013. It is quite clear that he will have no chance in winning the championship, he could've moved to a team like Lotus or Williams.


http://www.planet-f1.com/driver/18227/8 ... number-two

Opinions?

Lotus or Williams? the McLaren seat opened up and Ferrari were interested. But Webber had already signed for 2013.

As a Webber fan I'm disappointed he signed so early and I feel like he should be in the Perez seat, fast car, equal opportunity, as an F1 driver, it's what you want.

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