planetf1.com

It is currently Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:56 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
I skipped a bunch of posts (because I don't really care that much about whether or not anybody thinks Ron is bitter)...just wanted to say that while I absolutely do not think money was the deal breaker for either side, I highly doubt it was trophies either. We'll never really know until both sides tell us, and that might not ever happen.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Yeah they done a funky album, canny mind the name. But it was sorta Discoish.

That was after Bohemian Raspshody and it flopped?



Yeah. Pretty sure it was May that said Live aid gave them the kick up the pickle again.

I think it was a mix of trying new musical directions and like all bands a period of going out of fashion as one generation stops buying records and the next sees them as old timers. `

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 351
You have to feel sorry about him, in the last years he put the company into a big shame with the spy gate and lost Alonso and Hamilton, 2 of the best if not the best drivers of the last decade. In other line of work, he should be fired.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
Having either or both of them didn't really get him much either though. I'd fire him for not letting things get shaken up, because the status quo wasn't producing good enough results.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 7082
Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Yeah they done a funky album, canny mind the name. But it was sorta Discoish.

That was after Bohemian Raspshody and it flopped?



Yeah. Pretty sure it was May that said Live aid gave them the kick up the pickle again.

I think it was a mix of trying new musical directions and like all bands a period of going out of fashion as one generation stops buying records and the next sees them as old timers. `

Yep i remember now they were the best live aid band on stage helped by and large by Mercury, that definitely kicked off renewed interest in them

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Currently 1st


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
Only because the Quo were tiddled off their heads :lol: :lol:

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 7082
Johnston wrote:
Only because the Quo were tiddled off their heads :lol: :lol:

:lol:

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Currently 1st


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:16 am
Posts: 1308
ashley313 wrote:
Having either or both of them didn't really get him much either though. I'd fire him for not letting things get shaken up, because the status quo wasn't producing good enough results.

they scored points that equal alot of money....saying they didn't really get much is incorrect especially when Lewis is the only driver to have won a title for them since 1999,in terms of success,Lewis has brought them their greatest success in 21st century ;) :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:16 am
Posts: 1308
Laura23 wrote:
No you think Hamilton had the last word on it Haribo. We don't really know what went on and who jumped first.

Dennis's recent words would have us believe McLaren decided they didn't really want to try that hard keeping Hamilton. Hamilton has only said he wanted a new challenge. So it looks like McLaren made the choice for Hamilton to leave, Hamilton only had to choose where he then wanted to go and Merc was really the only choice.

As for Whitmarsh, he wasn't going to go around saying he wanted rid of the driver who was still in the WDC hunt for them at the time, it would have been a PR disaster. Even in 2007 Dennis didn't say he wanted rid of Alonso until the season was out even if he did make that "we are fighting Fernando" gaffe in China. Teams don't just admit they want rid of a driver, they either replace them straight away or wait until the season is over and the driver has left before admitting their true feeling and Dennis has done just that with Hamilton. He was disappointed to see him go but he wasn't going o bend over backwards to keep him with because at the end if the to to Dennis, Hamilton is just another guy on the payroll.

But really we have no idea who jumped first. Nothing in this situation is as black or white as it see,s on the surface and I still think the choice for both parties to part company was mutual. McLaren wanted rid of Hamilton and Hamilton wanted to leave and that's exactly what they got. Both parties seem happy enough now.

it looks to me that Hamilton made the choice to leave especially when you couple that with the fact that he already started having meetings with Mercedes in 2011,if Mclaren wanted Lewis out then why would they bother developing their 2013 car with Lewis in mind? i may not know what is going on at Mclaren but you don't negotiate with someone you don't want to retain.
if i was to guess i would say that Hamilton was torn btw leaving and staying but he was more inclined to leaving.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:56 am
Posts: 7486
Location: London
nike2die4 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No you think Hamilton had the last word on it Haribo. We don't really know what went on and who jumped first.

Dennis's recent words would have us believe McLaren decided they didn't really want to try that hard keeping Hamilton. Hamilton has only said he wanted a new challenge. So it looks like McLaren made the choice for Hamilton to leave, Hamilton only had to choose where he then wanted to go and Merc was really the only choice.

As for Whitmarsh, he wasn't going to go around saying he wanted rid of the driver who was still in the WDC hunt for them at the time, it would have been a PR disaster. Even in 2007 Dennis didn't say he wanted rid of Alonso until the season was out even if he did make that "we are fighting Fernando" gaffe in China. Teams don't just admit they want rid of a driver, they either replace them straight away or wait until the season is over and the driver has left before admitting their true feeling and Dennis has done just that with Hamilton. He was disappointed to see him go but he wasn't going o bend over backwards to keep him with because at the end if the to to Dennis, Hamilton is just another guy on the payroll.

But really we have no idea who jumped first. Nothing in this situation is as black or white as it see,s on the surface and I still think the choice for both parties to part company was mutual. McLaren wanted rid of Hamilton and Hamilton wanted to leave and that's exactly what they got. Both parties seem happy enough now.

it looks to me that Hamilton made the choice to leave especially when you couple that with the fact that he already started having meetings with Mercedes in 2011,if Mclaren wanted Lewis out then why would they bother developing their 2013 car with Lewis in mind? i may not know what is going on at Mclaren but you don't negotiate with someone you don't want to retain.
if i was to guess i would say that Hamilton was torn btw leaving and staying but he was more inclined to leaving.

Nike we have no idea what really went on, if McLaren really did push Hamilton out and we never know. It's no where near as black and white as some here are claiming. McLaren knew negotiating would force Merc to up their price, it eats into their budget the more they pay Hamilton and for all we know it may just have been that kind of game for McLaren. They are a business after all. But some of the Hamilton fan set can't seem to grasp the idea their man may not have been wanted at McLaren as much as he ended up wanting to leave. It isn't a bad thing, just life.

_________________
1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 Get well soon Schumi.

No one call anyone a moo-pickle...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:16 am
Posts: 1308
Laura23 wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No you think Hamilton had the last word on it Haribo. We don't really know what went on and who jumped first.

Dennis's recent words would have us believe McLaren decided they didn't really want to try that hard keeping Hamilton. Hamilton has only said he wanted a new challenge. So it looks like McLaren made the choice for Hamilton to leave, Hamilton only had to choose where he then wanted to go and Merc was really the only choice.

As for Whitmarsh, he wasn't going to go around saying he wanted rid of the driver who was still in the WDC hunt for them at the time, it would have been a PR disaster. Even in 2007 Dennis didn't say he wanted rid of Alonso until the season was out even if he did make that "we are fighting Fernando" gaffe in China. Teams don't just admit they want rid of a driver, they either replace them straight away or wait until the season is over and the driver has left before admitting their true feeling and Dennis has done just that with Hamilton. He was disappointed to see him go but he wasn't going o bend over backwards to keep him with because at the end if the to to Dennis, Hamilton is just another guy on the payroll.

But really we have no idea who jumped first. Nothing in this situation is as black or white as it see,s on the surface and I still think the choice for both parties to part company was mutual. McLaren wanted rid of Hamilton and Hamilton wanted to leave and that's exactly what they got. Both parties seem happy enough now.

it looks to me that Hamilton made the choice to leave especially when you couple that with the fact that he already started having meetings with Mercedes in 2011,if Mclaren wanted Lewis out then why would they bother developing their 2013 car with Lewis in mind? i may not know what is going on at Mclaren but you don't negotiate with someone you don't want to retain.
if i was to guess i would say that Hamilton was torn btw leaving and staying but he was more inclined to leaving.

Nike we have no idea what really went on, if McLaren really did push Hamilton out and we never know. It's no where near as black and white as some here are claiming. McLaren knew negotiating would force Merc to up their price, it eats into their budget the more they pay Hamilton and for all we know it may just have been that kind of game for McLaren. They are a business after all. But some of the Hamilton fan set can't seem to grasp the idea their man may not have been wanted at McLaren as much as he ended up wanting to leave. It isn't a bad thing, just life.

well the same can be said about both parties,there seem to be some convinced that Mclaren didn't want Lewis and that is was because of money or trophies but as you said,we can never know.
all am saying is that if i was to guess,i'd say it was Lewis that left Mclaren. When i listen to all this back n forth that is going on,it's akin to a jilted lover who complains to anyone that listens,someone said to me "well if they are asked questions then they would answer",well Lewis gets asked questions too but you don't see him saying "ohh i picked this over that",i just personally find Mclaren's behaviour unprofessional though as i think this situation is a "need to know" basis and frankly the media or us fans don't need to know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 12:48 pm
Posts: 834
Location: Toronto, Canada
I am not sure what to make of this interview. Essentially what Ron Dennis is saying is that the two sides couldn't bridge the differences between them. That Mclaren could have done more to retain Lewis. In the same token, Lewis could have done more to stay. Isn't this what happens in every contract negotiations, that both sides try to get as much as they want, and negotiations fall apart if there is no happy medium?

So where is the story? Since Lewis announced moving to Mercedes, Martin Whitmarsh has been saying that Mclaren did all they could to retain Lewis. Now Ron says they could have done more. And these are very honourable men. So where is the truth. Somebody has been blowing smoke up our collective anal cavity, and is sure aint Lewis.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
SilverPower wrote:
I am not sure what to make of this interview. Essentially what Ron Dennis is saying is that the two sides couldn't bridge the differences between them. That Mclaren could have done more to retain Lewis. In the same token, Lewis could have done more to stay. Isn't this what happens in every contract negotiations, that both sides try to get as much as they want, and negotiations fall apart if there is no happy medium?

So where is the story? Since Lewis announced moving to Mercedes, Martin Whitmarsh has been saying that Mclaren did all they could to retain Lewis. Now Ron says they could have done more. And these are very honourable men. So where is the truth. Somebody has been blowing smoke up our collective anal cavity, and is sure aint Lewis.


Remember those two are talking from different perspectives.

From Martins he would have been given a top line, things he can and cannot give. So when HE says "We done all we could" he's maybe talking within the constraints set down in front of him. If ron says you can give him a Big Mac and no more. He can't give him a Tandoori. As far as he's concerned all there is in the kitty is enough for a Big Mac. That is everything. We is in the sense of the guys around the negotiating table. All they could is with what they had.

Rons the big man who sets those constraints so when he says "We could have done more" he could be talking about what he gave Martin to play with. He could be saying I could have let Martin offer a Tandoori but I didn't want too.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 7082
ashley313 wrote:
Having either or both of them didn't really get him much either though. I'd fire him for not letting things get shaken up, because the status quo wasn't producing good enough results.

The fact is though that between them they scored enough points to have won the WCC

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Currently 1st


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 7082
SilverPower wrote:
I am not sure what to make of this interview. Essentially what Ron Dennis is saying is that the two sides couldn't bridge the differences between them. That Mclaren could have done more to retain Lewis. In the same token, Lewis could have done more to stay. Isn't this what happens in every contract negotiations, that both sides try to get as much as they want, and negotiations fall apart if there is no happy medium?

So where is the story? Since Lewis announced moving to Mercedes, Martin Whitmarsh has been saying that Mclaren did all they could to retain Lewis. Now Ron says they could have done more. And these are very honourable men. So where is the truth. Somebody has been blowing smoke up our collective anal cavity, and is sure aint Lewis.

Didn't Dennis go on record as saying that Hamilton was just another employee, make of that as you wish

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Currently 1st


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 3799
Numerous comments from either side, suggest it was over PR days, Mclaren could have bent over and given him fewer commitments but in turn that would not be good for sponsors and income.

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... ton-s-exit

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:56 am
Posts: 7486
Location: London
pokerman wrote:
SilverPower wrote:
I am not sure what to make of this interview. Essentially what Ron Dennis is saying is that the two sides couldn't bridge the differences between them. That Mclaren could have done more to retain Lewis. In the same token, Lewis could have done more to stay. Isn't this what happens in every contract negotiations, that both sides try to get as much as they want, and negotiations fall apart if there is no happy medium?

So where is the story? Since Lewis announced moving to Mercedes, Martin Whitmarsh has been saying that Mclaren did all they could to retain Lewis. Now Ron says they could have done more. And these are very honourable men. So where is the truth. Somebody has been blowing smoke up our collective anal cavity, and is sure aint Lewis.

Didn't Dennis go on record as saying that Hamilton was just another employee, make of that as you wish

He hasn't said it directly about Hamilton but he well known for saying his drivers are just employees of the team the same as the mechanics and back room staff are.

_________________
1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 Get well soon Schumi.

No one call anyone a moo-pickle...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:51 am
Posts: 1167
Laura23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SilverPower wrote:
I am not sure what to make of this interview. Essentially what Ron Dennis is saying is that the two sides couldn't bridge the differences between them. That Mclaren could have done more to retain Lewis. In the same token, Lewis could have done more to stay. Isn't this what happens in every contract negotiations, that both sides try to get as much as they want, and negotiations fall apart if there is no happy medium?

So where is the story? Since Lewis announced moving to Mercedes, Martin Whitmarsh has been saying that Mclaren did all they could to retain Lewis. Now Ron says they could have done more. And these are very honourable men. So where is the truth. Somebody has been blowing smoke up our collective anal cavity, and is sure aint Lewis.

Didn't Dennis go on record as saying that Hamilton was just another employee, make of that as you wish

He hasn't said it directly about Hamilton but he well known for saying his drivers are just employees of the team the same as the mechanics and back room staff are.


Did I Jude see silverpower call Whitmarsh an honourable man?! I thought I'd never see the day!

_________________
Multi 21 or Catch 22?!

It ain't hating just 'cause it's not love


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
pokerman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Having either or both of them didn't really get him much either though. I'd fire him for not letting things get shaken up, because the status quo wasn't producing good enough results.

The fact is though that between them they scored enough points to have won the WCC

The fact is though...that they haven't won a WCC since the 90's.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 12:48 pm
Posts: 834
Location: Toronto, Canada
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SilverPower wrote:
I am not sure what to make of this interview. Essentially what Ron Dennis is saying is that the two sides couldn't bridge the differences between them. That Mclaren could have done more to retain Lewis. In the same token, Lewis could have done more to stay. Isn't this what happens in every contract negotiations, that both sides try to get as much as they want, and negotiations fall apart if there is no happy medium?

So where is the story? Since Lewis announced moving to Mercedes, Martin Whitmarsh has been saying that Mclaren did all they could to retain Lewis. Now Ron says they could have done more. And these are very honourable men. So where is the truth. Somebody has been blowing smoke up our collective anal cavity, and is sure aint Lewis.

Didn't Dennis go on record as saying that Hamilton was just another employee, make of that as you wish

He hasn't said it directly about Hamilton but he well known for saying his drivers are just employees of the team the same as the mechanics and back room staff are.


Did I Jude see silverpower call Whitmarsh an honourable man?! I thought I'd never see the day!



One of my new year's resolution is to be nice to Martin Whitmarsh, at least once. Checked. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 7082
Laura23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SilverPower wrote:
I am not sure what to make of this interview. Essentially what Ron Dennis is saying is that the two sides couldn't bridge the differences between them. That Mclaren could have done more to retain Lewis. In the same token, Lewis could have done more to stay. Isn't this what happens in every contract negotiations, that both sides try to get as much as they want, and negotiations fall apart if there is no happy medium?

So where is the story? Since Lewis announced moving to Mercedes, Martin Whitmarsh has been saying that Mclaren did all they could to retain Lewis. Now Ron says they could have done more. And these are very honourable men. So where is the truth. Somebody has been blowing smoke up our collective anal cavity, and is sure aint Lewis.

Didn't Dennis go on record as saying that Hamilton was just another employee, make of that as you wish

He hasn't said it directly about Hamilton but he well known for saying his drivers are just employees of the team the same as the mechanics and back room staff are.

I believe he did in a sky interview, this is not word for word correct but it went something like this, "some seem to think its for Lewis to determine his terms and conditions but as far as i'm aware Lewis is employeed by McLaren".

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Currently 1st


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 7082
ashley313 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Having either or both of them didn't really get him much either though. I'd fire him for not letting things get shaken up, because the status quo wasn't producing good enough results.

The fact is though that between them they scored enough points to have won the WCC

The fact is though...that they haven't won a WCC since the 90's.

Thats true but the drivers themselves didn't exactly fail it was the team themselves that put their foot in it, but nothing new there i guess.

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Currently 1st


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
And other teams have similar mistakes and misfortune and can still win titles, because their drivers maximize every opportunity. For whatever reason, that hasn't happened at McLaren in a long time.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 7082
ashley313 wrote:
And other teams have similar mistakes and misfortune and can still win titles, because their drivers maximize every opportunity. For whatever reason, that hasn't happened at McLaren in a long time.

Like i said before the drivers scored enough points between them in 2007 to win the WCC

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Currently 1st


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:52 pm
Posts: 268
Location: Edinburgh
The synopsis states they have a 14% market share. That's total BS!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:37 pm
Posts: 854
SilverPower wrote:
I am not sure what to make of this interview. Essentially what Ron Dennis is saying is that the two sides couldn't bridge the differences between them. That Mclaren could have done more to retain Lewis. In the same token, Lewis could have done more to stay. Isn't this what happens in every contract negotiations, that both sides try to get as much as they want, and negotiations fall apart if there is no happy medium?

So where is the story? Since Lewis announced moving to Mercedes, Martin Whitmarsh has been saying that Mclaren did all they could to retain Lewis. Now Ron says they could have done more. And these are very honourable men. So where is the truth. Somebody has been blowing smoke up our collective anal cavity, and is sure aint Lewis.

Ron is too proud to admit someone wants to leave them voluntarily , and that the media, and even worse the main competitors portrayed McLaren as the losers in this "battle"

_________________
"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
Haribo wrote:
SilverPower wrote:
I am not sure what to make of this interview. Essentially what Ron Dennis is saying is that the two sides couldn't bridge the differences between them. That Mclaren could have done more to retain Lewis. In the same token, Lewis could have done more to stay. Isn't this what happens in every contract negotiations, that both sides try to get as much as they want, and negotiations fall apart if there is no happy medium?

So where is the story? Since Lewis announced moving to Mercedes, Martin Whitmarsh has been saying that Mclaren did all they could to retain Lewis. Now Ron says they could have done more. And these are very honourable men. So where is the truth. Somebody has been blowing smoke up our collective anal cavity, and is sure aint Lewis.

Ron is too proud to admit someone wants to leave them voluntarily , and that the media, and even worse the main competitors portrayed McLaren as the losers in this "battle"


And how do you know the other side aren't in damage limitation after Mclaren didn't take their bait?


Maybe McLaren were willing to and did call XIXs bluff.


We don't know because none of us were there.

For all we know Lewis was told to phone Whitmarsh after Singapore by XIX because XIX thought MW would say hold on don't be hasty and McLaren would make one last gasp effort.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:37 pm
Posts: 854
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
SilverPower wrote:
I am not sure what to make of this interview. Essentially what Ron Dennis is saying is that the two sides couldn't bridge the differences between them. That Mclaren could have done more to retain Lewis. In the same token, Lewis could have done more to stay. Isn't this what happens in every contract negotiations, that both sides try to get as much as they want, and negotiations fall apart if there is no happy medium?

So where is the story? Since Lewis announced moving to Mercedes, Martin Whitmarsh has been saying that Mclaren did all they could to retain Lewis. Now Ron says they could have done more. And these are very honourable men. So where is the truth. Somebody has been blowing smoke up our collective anal cavity, and is sure aint Lewis.

Ron is too proud to admit someone wants to leave them voluntarily , and that the media, and even worse the main competitors portrayed McLaren as the losers in this "battle"


And how do you know the other side aren't in damage limitation after Mclaren didn't take their bait?


Maybe McLaren were willing to and did call XIXs bluff.


We don't know because none of us were there.

For all we know Lewis was told to phone Whitmarsh after Singapore by XIX because XIX thought MW would say hold on don't be hasty and McLaren would make one last gasp effort.

Why should have said Whitmarsh & the other team management members, than they really wanted to keep him, made him this high offer etc?
From what we know, Lewis made the decission without XIX, he said they were not involved in his final decission. Whitmarsh was the first person he told it.

_________________
"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
Haribo wrote:
Why should have said Whitmarsh & the other team management members, than they really wanted to keep him, made him this high offer etc?
From what we know, Lewis made the decission without XIX, he said they were not involved in his final decission. Whitmarsh was the first person he told it.


They made him a high offer but obviously one lower than Lewis was asking.


You are taking Lewis' version of events as fact and dismissing the other side as false. When we don't know what happened behind closed doors. Lewis has as much reason to lie to save face as Ron. Maybe even more so. Especially if it was a game plan to call Maccas bluff.

As for whitmarsh being the first he told? To me that would have been stupid. What would happen if he told MW only to get a phone call to say the Merc deal was off the table? You don't leave a job until the new one is deal done.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
I'm so glad that in my business your teammate can't speak. When he or she is traded to another team, there is only one version of the story to go public.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:37 pm
Posts: 854
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Why should have said Whitmarsh & the other team management members, than they really wanted to keep him, made him this high offer etc?
From what we know, Lewis made the decission without XIX, he said they were not involved in his final decission. Whitmarsh was the first person he told it.


They made him a high offer but obviously one lower than Lewis was asking.


You are taking Lewis' version of events as fact and dismissing the other side as false. When we don't know what happened behind closed doors. Lewis has as much reason to lie to save face as Ron. Maybe even more so. Especially if it was a game plan to call Maccas bluff.

As for whitmarsh being the first he told? To me that would have been stupid. What would happen if he told MW only to get a phone call to say the Merc deal was off the table? You don't leave a job until the new one is deal done.

We have Whitmarsh & Hamilton who say the same about the things back than, independent from each other.
Now Ron comes months later and says different, after all other parties stated the same, After the media & competitors agreed on the opinion Lewis left McL , and therefore MCL is weakened ?
Why not believe Lewis & Whitmarsh ?
Mercedes wanted him since some time IMo they held the door open for Lewis, because they would not have got a better driver, so they waited for his decission- like McLaren did.
Don't think the decission was based on money.

_________________
"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
Haribo wrote:
We have Whitmarsh & Hamilton who say the same about the things back than, independent from each other.
Now Ron comes months later and says different, after all other parties stated the same, After the media & competitors agreed on the opinion Lewis left McL , and therefore MCL is weakened ?
Why not believe Lewis & Whitmarsh ?
Mercedes wanted him since some time IMo they held the door open for Lewis, because they would not have got a better driver, so they waited for his decission- like McLaren did.
Don't think the decission was based on money.


Explained why Whitmarsh and Ron could have different POV earlier.

Whitmarsh is tied by the deal Ron and the board lets him have. Whitmarsh can only do all he can do inside those constraints. When he says "We did everything" he's likely talking about within the guide lines sent down to him from above as far as he is concerned that figure he is given is "everything" if he's told his Max is £10 then £10 is everything. Ron is from above. He would know that there would be something else in the kitty he could give, that wee bit extra MW can't. He knows he could go to £15, Whitmarsh doesn't because that figure wouldn't work it's way down the food chain.

In essence Ron is possibly talking about how much he gave Whitmarsh to play with.

Just because Merc had been talking some time doesn't mean the door would have been open indefinitely. They had been talking to Schui What would have happened if Schui agreed to stay on? And as we know McLaren had been talking to Sergio despite there being "No plan b" . Do you honestly think Merc would have been incompetent enough not to have a plan B of their own in case Lewis decided to stay and Schui retired? I don't think they would have put themselves in a position where they would be left empty handed should Macca have put the deal down Lewis wanted.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:37 pm
Posts: 854
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
We have Whitmarsh & Hamilton who say the same about the things back than, independent from each other.
Now Ron comes months later and says different, after all other parties stated the same, After the media & competitors agreed on the opinion Lewis left McL , and therefore MCL is weakened ?
Why not believe Lewis & Whitmarsh ?
Mercedes wanted him since some time IMo they held the door open for Lewis, because they would not have got a better driver, so they waited for his decission- like McLaren did.
Don't think the decission was based on money.


Explained why Whitmarsh and Ron could have different POV earlier.

Whitmarsh is tied by the deal Ron and the board lets him have. Whitmarsh can only do all he can do inside those constraints. When he says "We did everything" he's likely talking about within the guide lines sent down to him from above as far as he is concerned that figure he is given is "everything" if he's told his Max is £10 then £10 is everything. Ron is from above. He would know that there would be something else in the kitty he could give, that wee bit extra MW can't. He knows he could go to £15, Whitmarsh doesn't because that figure wouldn't work it's way down the food chain.

In essence Ron is possibly talking about how much he gave Whitmarsh to play with.

Just because Merc had been talking some time doesn't mean the door would have been open indefinitely. They had been talking to Schui What would have happened if Schui agreed to stay on? And as we know McLaren had been talking to Sergio despite there being "No plan b" . Do you honestly think Merc would have been incompetent enough not to have a plan B of their own in case Lewis decided to stay and Schui retired? I don't think they would have put themselves in a position where they would be left empty handed should Macca have put the deal down Lewis wanted.

Plan B is always only 2nd to plan A.
Hamilton was on both lists Nr1, so they kept the door open
B drivers are enough available. A drivers not, so it was Lewis choice at both teams
It was not as if a driver comparable to Hamilton was available for both teams, both teams knew it,and held the door open.

Do you think Whitmarsh does not know where the limit is, when he is going to make the negotiations?

_________________
"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Posts: 2412
Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
We have Whitmarsh & Hamilton who say the same about the things back than, independent from each other.
Now Ron comes months later and says different, after all other parties stated the same, After the media & competitors agreed on the opinion Lewis left McL , and therefore MCL is weakened ?
Why not believe Lewis & Whitmarsh ?
Mercedes wanted him since some time IMo they held the door open for Lewis, because they would not have got a better driver, so they waited for his decission- like McLaren did.
Don't think the decission was based on money.


Explained why Whitmarsh and Ron could have different POV earlier.

Whitmarsh is tied by the deal Ron and the board lets him have. Whitmarsh can only do all he can do inside those constraints. When he says "We did everything" he's likely talking about within the guide lines sent down to him from above as far as he is concerned that figure he is given is "everything" if he's told his Max is £10 then £10 is everything. Ron is from above. He would know that there would be something else in the kitty he could give, that wee bit extra MW can't. He knows he could go to £15, Whitmarsh doesn't because that figure wouldn't work it's way down the food chain.

In essence Ron is possibly talking about how much he gave Whitmarsh to play with.

Just because Merc had been talking some time doesn't mean the door would have been open indefinitely. They had been talking to Schui What would have happened if Schui agreed to stay on? And as we know McLaren had been talking to Sergio despite there being "No plan b" . Do you honestly think Merc would have been incompetent enough not to have a plan B of their own in case Lewis decided to stay and Schui retired? I don't think they would have put themselves in a position where they would be left empty handed should Macca have put the deal down Lewis wanted.

Plan B is always only 2nd to plan A.
Hamilton was on both lists Nr1, so they kept the door open
B drivers are enough available. A drivers not, so it was Lewis choice at both teams
It was not as if a driver comparable to Hamilton was available for both teams, both teams knew it,and held the door open.

Do you think Whitmarsh does not know where the limit is, when he is going to make the negotiations?

Whitmarsh, as Johnston said, has a limit dictated to him. He's given the numbers he can play with.

While Lewis is a top level driver, the teams are all running closely to a budget, except RBR(which is ok by itself) and Ferrari(i could be wrong about this ). Given Lewis approached a couple of teams before he did Merc, it should give you an idea that a lot more goes into being hired than just being fast. The driver evaluation is crazy... some years ago a sample was published in F1Racing on various metrics. Who knows what the story is... but ones saying Lewis was passed on is perhaps just as accurate as your opinion. Worse still, he was passed on rather publicly by RBR(although it may have just been a ploy), while Ferrari were quiet on the entire episode. So the only conclusion you can draw is, whether or not by his choice, this move better work out for his own sake.

_________________
My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:37 pm
Posts: 854
garagetinkerer wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
We have Whitmarsh & Hamilton who say the same about the things back than, independent from each other.
Now Ron comes months later and says different, after all other parties stated the same, After the media & competitors agreed on the opinion Lewis left McL , and therefore MCL is weakened ?
Why not believe Lewis & Whitmarsh ?
Mercedes wanted him since some time IMo they held the door open for Lewis, because they would not have got a better driver, so they waited for his decission- like McLaren did.
Don't think the decission was based on money.


Explained why Whitmarsh and Ron could have different POV earlier.

Whitmarsh is tied by the deal Ron and the board lets him have. Whitmarsh can only do all he can do inside those constraints. When he says "We did everything" he's likely talking about within the guide lines sent down to him from above as far as he is concerned that figure he is given is "everything" if he's told his Max is £10 then £10 is everything. Ron is from above. He would know that there would be something else in the kitty he could give, that wee bit extra MW can't. He knows he could go to £15, Whitmarsh doesn't because that figure wouldn't work it's way down the food chain.

In essence Ron is possibly talking about how much he gave Whitmarsh to play with.

Just because Merc had been talking some time doesn't mean the door would have been open indefinitely. They had been talking to Schui What would have happened if Schui agreed to stay on? And as we know McLaren had been talking to Sergio despite there being "No plan b" . Do you honestly think Merc would have been incompetent enough not to have a plan B of their own in case Lewis decided to stay and Schui retired? I don't think they would have put themselves in a position where they would be left empty handed should Macca have put the deal down Lewis wanted.

Plan B is always only 2nd to plan A.
Hamilton was on both lists Nr1, so they kept the door open
B drivers are enough available. A drivers not, so it was Lewis choice at both teams
It was not as if a driver comparable to Hamilton was available for both teams, both teams knew it,and held the door open.

Do you think Whitmarsh does not know where the limit is, when he is going to make the negotiations?

Whitmarsh, as Johnston said, has a limit dictated to him. He's given the numbers he can play with.

While Lewis is a top level driver, the teams are all running closely to a budget, except RBR(which is ok by itself) and Ferrari(i could be wrong about this ). Given Lewis approached a couple of teams before he did Merc, it should give you an idea that a lot more goes into being hired than just being fast. The driver evaluation is crazy... some years ago a sample was published in F1Racing on various metrics. Who knows what the story is... but ones saying Lewis was passed on is perhaps just as accurate as your opinion. Worse still, he was passed on rather publicly by RBR(although it may have just been a ploy), while Ferrari were quiet on the entire episode. So the only conclusion you can draw is, whether or not by his choice, this move better work out for his own sake.

Neither Ferrari nor RBR are looking for a Nr1 driver, they wanrted a solid Nr2 who is not too much a treat for their Nr1 drivers. Hamilton would have never been a Nr2, to Vettel & Alonso.
Both teams very much know, a nr1 & nr2 ist the most successfull way to win titles.
Of course was Hamiltons move his choice , he could have stayed at McLaren for another multiple years, if he wanted..

IMO, Ron is just pi*ed, McL thought they can sign him for cheap , as they thought,Lewis had nowhere to go, and made the first mistake to talk publicly about lesser money etc. ..This was the point of no return at the negotiations for a top tier driver like Hamilton. So he told Ron f++ you ( literally) & left. The much improved offer came too late.
Even Bernie talked about Ron & McLaren made a huge mistake, but did not say more

The other thing IMO happened during the summer break, where Hamilton alledgedly stopped negotiations It was at the time where Hamilons aunt was dying, and he stayed with her at hospital during that time. Whitmarsh was asked at F1.com why the negtioations do not get further( it was supposed a decission would be made at this time)
Whitmarsh: We put him under too much pressure at a time/situation where he had an obvious personal issue, it was not appropriate to do this.

2013 however now, Hamilton moved on while Dennis still throws his toys out of the pram.

_________________
"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
Ron only started about talking about lesser money money after Lewis was making comments like "They will be shocked how many PR days I won't be doing". Basically telling folk he will be keeping his trophies.

Basically it was a swimming pool contest. But it was started well before Ron mentioned money and well before they started actually talking. It wasn't ron that went public first Haribo. Lewis was talking mid way through 2011 of what he would be getting ;)

Why would Hamilton have stopped negotiations because of his Aunt? He said in an interview he knew nothing about the negotiations because he paid people to deal with it he had nothing to do with them. So why stop negotiations when he supposedly had nothing to do with them anyway. If they were going on without him they could have carried on without them. Either he was part of them and he wanted to freeze them which means he lied in the interview . Or he's using his aunt as an excuse.

Doesn't make lewis look good in the truth stakes does it?

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 2638
pokerman wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No you think Hamilton had the last word on it Haribo. We don't really know what went on and who jumped first.

Dennis's recent words would have us believe McLaren decided they didn't really want to try that hard keeping Hamilton. Hamilton has only said he wanted a new challenge. So it looks like McLaren made the choice for Hamilton to leave, Hamilton only had to choose where he then wanted to go and Merc was really the only choice.

As for Whitmarsh, he wasn't going to go around saying he wanted rid of the driver who was still in the WDC hunt for them at the time, it would have been a PR disaster. Even in 2007 Dennis didn't say he wanted rid of Alonso until the season was out even if he did make that "we are fighting Fernando" gaffe in China. Teams don't just admit they want rid of a driver, they either replace them straight away or wait until the season is over and the driver has left before admitting their true feeling and Dennis has done just that with Hamilton. He was disappointed to see him go but he wasn't going o bend over backwards to keep him with because at the end if the to to Dennis, Hamilton is just another guy on the payroll.

But really we have no idea who jumped first. Nothing in this situation is as black or white as it see,s on the surface and I still think the choice for both parties to part company was mutual. McLaren wanted rid of Hamilton and Hamilton wanted to leave and that's exactly what they got. Both parties seem happy enough now.

Dennis recent word come too late to make it beliveable, it was really in their hands. This is the point.
All the other who had something to say Lowe, Neale, Michaels were sorry to see him leave, and did very much want him to stay.
IMO it's BS they wanted to get rid of him. Maybe it was Rons ego wich got hurt, Lewis did not agree on anything they wanted from him. Like D. Hill said they caged him like a bird, at McL, and drivers are not trained seals, once they get fed up with jumping through the loops.
McLaren & Dennis did not seem too happy. IF Dennis was happy he would have answered different.

IMO it's McLarens & Dennis attitude why they are not very successfull the last 13 years, when they treat their best drivers just like any other guy on the pay roll.

BTW Hamilton & Whitmarsh both said it was Hamilton who made the call, so it was his decission to leave. It was Ron who said he sees no reason why Hamilton would not drive at McLaren 2013, some time before the decission.

So it's only your opinion that Hamilton was the one who chose to leave and McLaren wanted him to stay. Thanks for clarifying that.

Like I said, we don't know the true ins and outs of what happened. From the outside the decision looks mutual from both parties. I don't know why that's so hard to accept from Hamilton fans. He is just an employee at the end if the day.

There is the route of the problem then i doubt that Alonso is viewed as just another employee at Ferrari or Vettel at Red Bull, and i doubt Hamilton will be viewed as just another employee at Mercedes

I'm sure Schumi wasn't viewed "as just another employee at Ferrari" either - but they let him go.

It seems likely that McLaren would have preferred to retain Lewis, but were only prepared to go 'so far' for various reasons.

Meanwhile, Lewis was unhappy at McLaren (for various reasons), and even though he was unable to get a 'top' drive - was unhappy enough to leave if McLaren didn't meet his demands. If this was not the case, why would he/his management team bother negotiating?

Edit - Re. Queen, brilliant band - but personally I found Mercury's strutting repulsive to watch :( . Obviously I am in a minority here, but whilst I loved their albums I didn't enjoy the Live Aid performance visually. And no, I'm not homophobic...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:37 pm
Posts: 854
Johnston wrote:
Ron only started about talking about lesser money money after Lewis was making comments like "They will be shocked how many PR days I won't be doing". Basically telling folk he will be keeping his trophies.

Basically it was a swimming pool contest. But it was started well before Ron mentioned money and well before they started actually talking. It wasn't ron that went public first Haribo. Lewis was talking mid way through 2011 of what he would be getting ;)

Why would Hamilton have stopped negotiations because of his Aunt? He said in an interview he knew nothing about the negotiations because he paid people to deal with it he had nothing to do with them. So why stop negotiations when he supposedly had nothing to do with them anyway. If they were going on without him they could have carried on without them. Either he was part of them and he wanted to freeze them which means he lied in the interview . Or he's using his aunt as an excuse.

Doesn't make lewis look good in the truth stakes does it?

It was Whitmash who talked about they did something inappropriate, not Hamilton, he did not say anything , about this
It was at the same time, so it's a assumption from me, what McLaren could have done inappropriate at this time.

_________________
"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:16 am
Posts: 1308
Johnston wrote:
Ron only started about talking about lesser money money after Lewis was making comments like "They will be shocked how many PR days I won't be doing". Basically telling folk he will be keeping his trophies.

Basically it was a swimming pool contest. But it was started well before Ron mentioned money and well before they started actually talking. It wasn't ron that went public first Haribo. Lewis was talking mid way through 2011 of what he would be getting ;)

Why would Hamilton have stopped negotiations because of his Aunt? He said in an interview he knew nothing about the negotiations because he paid people to deal with it he had nothing to do with them. So why stop negotiations when he supposedly had nothing to do with them anyway. If they were going on without him they could have carried on without them. Either he was part of them and he wanted to freeze them which means he lied in the interview . Or he's using his aunt as an excuse.

Doesn't make lewis look good in the truth stakes does it?

he said that once or so in 2010/2011 :uhoh:....and i thought he said he had people that were dealing with the contracts,i don't remember him saying he knew nothing about it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
nike2die4 wrote:
Doesn't make lewis look good in the truth stakes does it?

he said that once or so in 2010/2011 :uhoh:....and i thought he said he had people that were dealing with the contracts,i don't remember him saying he knew nothing about it.[/quote]

Yeah there was an interview last year where he was asked how negotiations were going and he basically said I have no idea.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Grizzly B, RudderlessRussian and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group