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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:40 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
]
AnRs wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
VDV23 wrote:
Yes, because that's how the world works and the richest/most successful is the first to suffer punishment.

True.Just like renault in 05/06 with their mass dampers.Cheating b******s.


The only team punishe for cheating is McLaren in 2007 - 2008? The other have only read the regulations?


The mass damper situation was different. It was legal one week. Then literally illegal the next. With no changes to the part itself. Renault had been running it for a while before it was outlawed. It was all rather....fishy. without the ban Alonso was going to take the title with ease the way he was going

Just like red bull's hole.Legal one race illegal the next.And there was nothing fishy about the ban . Ferrari themselves were using one although the ban affected renault more .It was proved that it was a movable aerodynamic device.


The holes in the floor were illegal since the start of 2012.[/quote]
Red bull thought it was legal based on their interpretation of the rules .Just like renault etc with the mass dampers and the stewards agreed it in both instances and declared it legal.The FIA declared it as illegal.I was just pointing out the similarities of the 2 situations.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:44 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
True.Just like renault in 05/06 with their mass dampers.Cheating b******s.


The only team punishe for cheating is McLaren in 2007 - 2008? The other have only read the regulations?


The mass damper situation was different. It was legal one week. Then literally illegal the next. With no changes to the part itself. Renault had been running it for a while before it was outlawed. It was all rather....fishy. without the ban Alonso was going to take the title with ease the way he was going

Just like red bull's hole.Legal one race illegal the next.And there was nothing fishy about the ban . Ferrari themselves were using one although the ban affected renault more .It was proved that it was a movable aerodynamic device.[/quote]

The holes in the floor were illegal since the start of 2012.[/quote]

+1. Red Bull ran with them anyways just to see how much they could break the rules and not get caught. It's the same with their manual ride height system and flexi-noses.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:53 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:

The holes in the floor were illegal since the start of 2012.


The holes in the floor were declared Legal by stewards Bahrain.

They changed the rules post Monaco to make them illegal.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:55 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
VDV23 wrote:

The holes in the floor were illegal since the start of 2012.


The holes in the floor were declared Legal by stewards Bahrain.

They changed the rules post Monaco to make them illegal.

That's not entirely true.

No rule was changed, the view about whether the RB8 was in compliance with the rule or not changed.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:06 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
The mass damper situation was different. It was legal one week. Then literally illegal the next. With no changes to the part itself. Renault had been running it for a while before it was outlawed. It was all rather....fishy. without the ban Alonso was going to take the title with ease the way he was going
In fact, it was even stranger than that; even when the ban was pronounced, the Tuned Mass Damper was declared still legal! Officially, it was the prospect of development taking the concept beyond legality, that reportedly drove Whiting to ban it. In reality of course, the reason was that Ferrari were losing ground and that was not allowed to happen.

Whether a similar thing happened with the Red Bull hole, I can't tell.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:07 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
VDV23 wrote:

The holes in the floor were illegal since the start of 2012.


The holes in the floor were declared Legal by stewards Bahrain.

They changed the rules post Monaco to make them illegal.

That's not entirely true.

No rule was changed, the view about whether the RB8 was in compliance with the rule or not changed.


You sure, because it was deemed legal in Bahrain when it was protested or at least other teams mentioned it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:44 pm 
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3.12.5 All parts lying on the reference and step planes, in addition to the transition between the two planes, must produce uniform, solid, hard, continuous, rigid (no degree of freedom in relation to the body/chassis unit), impervious surfaces under all circumstances.

Forward of a line 450mm forward of the rear face of the cockpit entry template, fully enclosed holes are permitted in the surfaces lying on the reference and step planes provided no part of the car is visible through them when viewed from directly below. This does not apply to any parts of rear view mirrors which are visible, provided each of these areas does not exceed 12000mm² when projected to a horizontal plane above the car, or to any parts of the panels referred to in Article 15.4.7.

3.12.10 In an area lying 650mm or less from the car centre line, and from 450mm forward of the rear face of the cockpit entry template to 350mm forward of the rear wheel centre line, any intersection of any bodywork visible from beneath the car with a lateral or longitudinal vertical plane should form one continuous line which is visible from beneath the car

Enclosed holes are only explicitly allowed in the front of the floor, which implies they are prohibited elsewhere. RBR argued that they weren't explicitly banned from the 50cm outer section where they put them. The FIA issued a technical directive that clarified the rule, saying yes, this means holes are prohibited everywhere else. RBR was allowed to keep its results because the FIA thought their interpretation of the rule was fair prior to the clarification stating the clearer meaning of the regulation.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:07 pm 
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If their interpretation of the rule was fair doesn't that make it Legal?

Then the clarification added in the bit extra that made it illegal.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:36 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
3.12.5 All parts lying on the reference and step planes, in addition to the transition between the two planes, must produce uniform, solid, hard, continuous, rigid (no degree of freedom in relation to the body/chassis unit), impervious surfaces under all circumstances.

Forward of a line 450mm forward of the rear face of the cockpit entry template, fully enclosed holes are permitted in the surfaces lying on the reference and step planes provided no part of the car is visible through them when viewed from directly below. This does not apply to any parts of rear view mirrors which are visible, provided each of these areas does not exceed 12000mm² when projected to a horizontal plane above the car, or to any parts of the panels referred to in Article 15.4.7.

3.12.10 In an area lying 650mm or less from the car centre line, and from 450mm forward of the rear face of the cockpit entry template to 350mm forward of the rear wheel centre line, any intersection of any bodywork visible from beneath the car with a lateral or longitudinal vertical plane should form one continuous line which is visible from beneath the car

Enclosed holes are only explicitly allowed in the front of the floor, which implies they are prohibited elsewhere. RBR argued that they weren't explicitly banned from the 50cm outer section where they put them. The FIA issued a technical directive that clarified the rule, saying yes, this means holes are prohibited everywhere else. RBR was allowed to keep its results because the FIA thought their interpretation of the rule was fair prior to the clarification stating the clearer meaning of the regulation.

Car is legal as long as it isn't illegal and the floor was deemed illegal after Monaco.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:46 pm 
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^Yes, that's correct. They simply changed their view on what they considered acceptable interpretation.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:51 pm 
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IIRC in at least the last decade the FIA has never taken away points earned prior to a part being declared illegal. Aside from the TMD as discussed in 2006 there was also the flexi-floor in 2007.

There's no 'spirit of the rules' and of course there remain grey areas in the regulations and my understanding based on what's happened over the years is that as long as the team has a valid argument for why their component falls into the grey area that grey area is simply rectified and they're required to change the car. The FIA makes decisions on what they accept and don't accept as grey areas on a lot of different bases, including concepts they don't want extended as they feel the ramifications for development aren't a direction they want the sport to go in. Sometimes a team comes up with something such as the double diffusers or the f-duct that isn't a grey area at all, but a loophole and the FIA can't do anything until they rewrite the regulations the following year.

Nothing that was on the Red Bull was any different to this.

By contrast, where a team is actually black and white in reach of the rules, the FIA do impose a punishment. In 2005 the BAR was found to be using fuel as ballast and the team was banned for two races.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:56 pm 
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Smus wrote:
Its called managing expectations...run for political office and you build up your opponent and downplay yourself. That way if you don't do well its expected, and if you do its seen as a larger victory than it truly is.


/thread this is what it is all about


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:26 pm 
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Red Bull has been compromised, that's the only way they could know we were here! - Jack Bauer


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:28 am 
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It's evident that they have spent less on this year's car, but Newey isn't saying they will struggle, just that they will have to work harder.
Also, for those thinking of a walkover: I don't really think so. Regulations are becoming tighter and tighter, so with teams close to each other in 2012 it will be even closer in 2013. I don't expect radical changes that will make one car stand out. Except for maybe Mclaren, with fixed reliability it could be a dominant car on lots of tracks - provided Button and Perez are capable enough.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:49 am 
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I expect they'll be fine.

They might start a little slow but that happened in 2012 too (slow in a relative sense to the leaders not in terms of the field), but they have funding, good people and good drivers, so I doubt they'll be too far from the fight, even at a worst case scenario.


Besides, they've done alright in 2011 despite a close contest in 2010. Perhaps they'll come out with the equivalent to the 2009 Ferrari/McLaren drop off, but I doubt it tbh.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:12 am 
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So Red Bulls will be only 5 tenths per lap faster, not full 1 second, than second fastest car. What a shame, everyone would prefer to see another Red Bull domination season, but if that's the case, we might see another year of superior drivers in lesser cars taking the fight to these rocketships, which is very boring.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:56 pm 
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I would suppose they won't put much into this car in all reality. Why put so much effort into a car when the formula will change in 2014 anyways...or has that been scrapped?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:49 pm 
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kai_ wrote:
I'm sure that compared to the resources they could have diverted to the RB9 had the championship not gone down to the wire they have devoted less and therefore the car is compromised compared to what could have been.

However, that doesn't necessarily translate to them struggling.

I think this is probably it. My belief is that it is another case where there are always people asking Newey questions, due to his status in the sport. He answers them as truthfully as he can without lying or hurting his team and everyone puts their own spin on it after.

It's not like he's putting out strategic press releases with some sort of agenda; he is just answering questions he is asked.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:27 pm 
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As someone said it's managing expectations or in non-business speak - lying to fool people. Im sure the RB will be just fine. In fact as I said this time last year, they will win again this year. As long as Newey is at RB, Pat Fry is at Ferrari and the FIA holds RB to a different standard by letting them get away with bringing tools into parc firme and other very dark grey areas that are indistinguishable from black - RB will win the WDC.

And now that Lewis and McLaren have parted ways they will be less of a threat individually than they were together.

This is why I've stopped going to F1 races, and even (dare I say it) started recording and fast forwarding thru parts of races. Great if you are a Vettel fan, but far too predictable.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:39 pm 
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ynot22 wrote:
As someone said it's managing expectations or in non-business speak - lying to fool people. Im sure the RB will be just fine. In fact as I said this time last year, they will win again this year. As long as Newey is at RB, Pat Fry is at Ferrari and the FIA holds RB to a different standard by letting them get away with bringing tools into parc firme and other very dark grey areas that are indistinguishable from black - RB will win the WDC.

And now that Lewis and McLaren have parted ways they will be less of a threat individually than they were together.

This is why I've stopped going to F1 races, and even (dare I say it) started recording and fast forwarding thru parts of races. Great if you are a Vettel fan, but far too predictable.

Oh come on. Red Bull dominated only in 2011 and where have you been in 2012? It was onlysince Singapore when Vettel and Red Bull had clear edge. Even since then WDC fight lasted till last race and Vettel still was superlucky when he survived the spin. Newey every season faces tough challenge to build the best car and there is absolutely no guarantee that he will do it next year.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:08 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
ynot22 wrote:
As someone said it's managing expectations or in non-business speak - lying to fool people. Im sure the RB will be just fine. In fact as I said this time last year, they will win again this year. As long as Newey is at RB, Pat Fry is at Ferrari and the FIA holds RB to a different standard by letting them get away with bringing tools into parc firme and other very dark grey areas that are indistinguishable from black - RB will win the WDC.

And now that Lewis and McLaren have parted ways they will be less of a threat individually than they were together.

This is why I've stopped going to F1 races, and even (dare I say it) started recording and fast forwarding thru parts of races. Great if you are a Vettel fan, but far too predictable.

Oh come on. Red Bull dominated only in 2011 and where have you been in 2012? It was onlysince Singapore when Vettel and Red Bull had clear edge. Even since then WDC fight lasted till last race and Vettel still was superlucky when he survived the spin. Newey every season faces tough challenge to build the best car and there is absolutely no guarantee that he will do it next year.

Yeah, Red Bull and McLaren pretty much swapped having the fastest car every 3 to 4 races all season. The only real difference in terms of results was organizationally McLaren was a mess early on.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:13 am 
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Johnston wrote:
It really doesn't matter.

'10 went down to the wire too. Look what happened in '11.

They had plenty of time to do the '12 car because both Championships were wrapped up early in '11. But yet they started the beginning of the year slow.


what you say! :)


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