planetf1.com

It is currently Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:40 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
 Post subject: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 3547
Energy recovery system, this is the first I have heard of it.

-

At present the Formula One drivers are given a boost by KERS (kinetic energy recovery system) of 80hp for 6.7secs per lap.

However, next year with ERS combining with KERS they will have an extra 161hp for 33.3secs per lap.

"Today it is difficult to be quick without KERS - for 2014 it will be impossible to go racing without ERS," revealed Cowell.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:50 am
Posts: 2233
Location: Singapore
In a nut shell, push to pass button.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:10 pm
Posts: 477
They will change the name from KERS to ERS because they plan to recover energy from other sources and not just kinetic. Heat for example.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:10 am
Posts: 584
Simple reason for changing it to ERS is because not only will energy be harvested on braking but also from the energy produced by the exhaust gases.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
I thought the FIA had agreed to dump a lot of the ERS when they dumped the new aero rules?

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 1295
F1 with a HANS and HERS set, then..?

_________________
What did you say... Douglas?


Last edited by tootsie323 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:43 pm
Posts: 2884
sandyf1 wrote:
Simple reason for changing it to ERS is because not only will energy be harvested on braking but also from the energy produced by the exhaust gases.


That's it in a nutshell. The KERS has a generator/motor connected to the drivetrain. It harvests energy directly from the drivetrain while braking. HERS (heat energy recovery system) is also a generator/motor, but it is attached to the turbo. You can see it as the large canister between the turbine and compressor.

ImageImage

The hot exhaust gases leave the engine, travel through the exhaust pipes to the turbine (red) where they impinge upon it and cause it rotate. A shaft carries the rotational energy to the compressor (blue) which compresses the incoming air. In between these two componenets is the generator/motor. The harvested energy is stored, and discharged on demand.

One very cool thing about this setup is that the HERS motor can spin up the turbine when needed, completely eliminating turbo lag, and additionally adding boost at low speeds. That means the engine will have monstrous low-end torque, and should come off the corners very hard. In fact, there will be so much power at lower engine revolutions that wheelspin becomes a reality, and we should see a lot of it from 2014 forward.

HERS is not limited in storage capacity, when it can be used, or how much energy used per lap. KERS is restricted in all three categories.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Posts: 2412
I thought it was some bullshit to make f1 more superficial a spectacle than it already is.

_________________
My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:14 pm
Posts: 1717
Location: South Yorkshire
33 seconds a lap? Or is this a total value for a session of a race weekend so the driver has to choose when to use it during the race, as 33 secs a lap is a lot.

_________________
Jenson Button Fan.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:50 am
Posts: 1154
So we'll now have DRS and ERS. How lovely.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 1899
Ev0lutionz wrote:
In a nut shell, push to pass button.

Incorrect and misleading on so many levels.

KERS is not a push to pass system, that's one way it can be utilised but it is not the only way nor is it its purpose. On the same token, running the engine in a higher power mode is a "push to pass system" whereas KERS has many more applications.

When KERS becomes ERS it will be deployable at maximum power for 33 seconds per lap. Incidentally, I don't believe there is nothing in the regulations that says it has o be deployed at maximum power, rather it lists the maximum deployable energy per lap and lists a maximum deployable power, therefore the 33 seconds is determined by dividing that energy quota by the power. If they deployed ERS at half power they could use it or 66 seconds per lap.

Because of the fact they are getting a minimum maximum of 33 seconds per lap and the system is much more complex (it can be used to spool the turbo, for instance, which could potentially increase the power output of the engine by more than the ERS energy used) it is likely the ERS will be toggle on/toggle off (regulations permitting) and the engine management will control it. This would not be a push to pass system in any way whatsoever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:20 am
Posts: 2706
Location: Herts, UK
fieldstvl wrote:
So we'll now have DRS and ERS. How lovely.


IMO it should be pronounced "derrs and errs" :P

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 826
Location: Qart-Hadast
By next year they mean 2014 or next season (2013)?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:00 pm
Posts: 605
chican wrote:
By next year they mean 2014 or next season (2013)?


I hope 2014, because KERS sounds better than ERS lol

Stupid reason, I know

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:21 pm
Posts: 1697
They should really rename it, ERS is silly.

_________________
Official Kamui Kobayashi Fanboy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
Volantary wrote:
They should really rename it, ERS is silly.


The are keeping the RS's alphabetical from here on in. .

DRS Drag Reduction system.
ERS Energy Recovery System.

Next will be FRS. all hail the mods Ridiculous System.

Some say Bernies thinking of deploying Banana skins with the FRS.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:49 am
Posts: 2069
Location: Australia
I have a few questions about this. It's an area of the sport where I really lack knowledge and understanding.

Will the teams have markedly different set-ups or are they all likely to be similar?
Will the systems vary between teams based on how they want to deploy it or is deployment controlled by the ECU?
Are we likely to see trade-offs between this system and other components of the car or is the HERS so valuable that it will take priority?
What are the different ways that it can be utilised?

I hope they all make sense. I can explain what I mean better if necessary.

_________________
Twitter @Jo_Soucek


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 826
Location: Qart-Hadast
Are the teams supposed to develop their own ERS units from scratch or it will be an update of actual KERS? Also, will there be a team supplier?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 1899
Volantary wrote:
They should really rename it, ERS is silly.

Ha, yeah it does, you made me think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMCsRkH-9AA

Maybe they'll refer to it as "Ee Arr Ess"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 3547
Energy recovery from the exhaust, is that not just a turbo?

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 1899
lamo wrote:
Energy recovery from the exhaust, is that not just a turbo?

No, the turbine drives a MGU which also charges/draws power from the battery.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 826
Location: Qart-Hadast
lamo wrote:
Energy recovery from the exhaust, is that not just a turbo?

A turbo has more to do with blowing air to the engines, hence the word, turbine.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 3137
I really wish they would open this up and make it completely 'free for all'. This is the most exciting thing that is going to be available to F1 for the next decade. Engines are all going to be 'jelly mold' and fixed quite tightly, and aero has been chipped away at for so long there is not much wriggle room left. The only advantage now is going to be in this area.

I would like in particular to donkey them allow a 'dynastat' style device to recover the stopping from the front wheels and allow them to drive the same wheels with that energy.

_________________
I have nothing to offer but blood, oil, gears, and sweat.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:20 am
Posts: 2706
Location: Herts, UK
Johnston wrote:
Volantary wrote:
They should really rename it, ERS is silly.


The are keeping the RS's alphabetical from here on in. .

DRS Drag Reduction system.
ERS Energy Recovery System.

Next will be FRS. all hail the mods Ridiculous System.

Some say Bernies thinking of deploying Banana skins with the FRS.

The way it's going we'll have a "Fan Reduction System"! :lol:

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:25 pm
Posts: 294
Complaints about more exciting racing..... must be the British.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:45 pm
Posts: 633
Location: England
chican wrote:
Are the teams supposed to develop their own ERS units from scratch or it will be an update of actual KERS? Also, will there be a team supplier?


I believe the ERS system is mounted onto the actual power unit therefore the engine manufacturers will develop the ERS itself instead of for example, Red Bull developing there own system it will be Renault doing both the Power unit and the ERS.

So in short, the engine manufacturers, Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Cosworth, will all develop their own ERS systems for the teams they supply.

Quote:
"One important aspect of change will be to see the power unit as a whole entity, so that each driver will have 5 power units for the season (currently he has 8 engines). So if he has a failure of ERS, turbo, an exhaust, battery or control electronics failure you will have to use a sixth power unit and incur a 10 place penalty. Today it’s only the engine itself which attracts a penalty."

Quote from this link.

_________________
Guess the Pole Position time/driver 2013!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
The 10 place penalty should be scrapped until the manufacturers get a handle on things. Or at the very least give them a joker card or two.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:45 pm
Posts: 633
Location: England
Johnston wrote:
The 10 place penalty should be scrapped until the manufacturers get a handle on things. Or at the very least give them a joker card or two.


Definitely agree with this, its stupid of the FIA to think that the manufacturers will be able to build a reliable unit and be able to withstand the pressure under race conditions from the get go. Its a new era of engines and especially when everything is a sole entity on the unit itself and when one part fails then you're going to have to pickup a new unit. They should at least keep it at the current 8 units and then obviously the 10 place grid penalty.

Hopefully these regulations aren't the final edition and will be tweaked upon the 2014 season, otherwise theirs going to be a lot of penalties.

_________________
Guess the Pole Position time/driver 2013!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:33 pm
Posts: 1697
Location: Bangor, Gwynedd, Wales
fieldstvl wrote:
So we'll now have DRS and ERS. How lovely.

Wait til the FIA accepts my Fart Recovery System proposition...

_________________
Copper Masked Sunrise
http://www.justgiving.com/CIN-Mystery-P ... 00b9467dcb
https://www.facebook.com/BadExcusesBand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 826
Location: Qart-Hadast
Tufty wrote:
fieldstvl wrote:
So we'll now have DRS and ERS. How lovely.

Wait til the FIA accepts my Fart Recovery System proposition...
A s***-cannon would be a great idea too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 3547
Sounds like a horrible 5 engine / drive train rule for the entire season :thumbdown:

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:50 am
Posts: 1154
RickM wrote:
fieldstvl wrote:
So we'll now have DRS and ERS. How lovely.


IMO it should be pronounced "derrs and errs" :P


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:52 am
Posts: 130
Location: Poland
kai_ wrote:
(...)
Will the systems vary between teams based on how they want to deploy it or is deployment controlled by the ECU?
(...)

I would like to know the answer for that one as well. Will this be something driver dependant (pushing button like KERS) or completely automatic?

Also, with the 5 engine units per season rule, it really looks like 2014 WDC and WCC could be determined by engines reliability.

_________________
No pain, no gain!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:20 am
Posts: 2706
Location: Herts, UK
Tufty wrote:
fieldstvl wrote:
So we'll now have DRS and ERS. How lovely.

Wait til the FIA accepts my Fart Recovery System proposition...


Would the alternative name for that be FPS?

Fart Propulsion System.

:P

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 44
Does anyone know what's up with Cosworth and the 2014 engine? All the info I can find is from October. Guess only Marussia roll them now anyway?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:33 pm
Posts: 1697
Location: Bangor, Gwynedd, Wales
RickM wrote:
Tufty wrote:
fieldstvl wrote:
So we'll now have DRS and ERS. How lovely.

Wait til the FIA accepts my Fart Recovery System proposition...


Would the alternative name for that be FPS?

Fart Propulsion System.

:P

:lol:

_________________
Copper Masked Sunrise
http://www.justgiving.com/CIN-Mystery-P ... 00b9467dcb
https://www.facebook.com/BadExcusesBand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:43 pm
Posts: 2884
It appears some acronyms require explanation. These new energy recovery systems are known as ERS. They have two different sources, one from heat, and the other from kinetic energy (forward motion). So that's how we wind up with KERS (kinetic energy recovery system) and HERS (heat energy recovery system). Each system requires a motor/generator to harvest energy, and to feed it back. So now we have MGU-K (motor generator unit kinetic) and MGU-H (motor generator unit heat).

Both of these systems have a common energy storage, usually a battery, although capacitors and flywheels are also utilized. All systems are controlled by one control unit, named the "MGU Control Unit". The FIA has a flow chart describing these responsibilities in Appendix 3 of the 2014 Technical Regulations. http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/2014-F1-TECHNICAL-REGULATIONS-111212.pdf

I strongly suggest that anyone interested in the technology involved read the tech regs.

KERS is restricted in capacity, use, and power levels. HERS is unlimited. KERS feeds the energy back into the drivetrain, and HERS feeds the energy back into the turbo, each are distinct and separate, although they share the same common control unit and storage device.

So what we wind up with is the KERS as we now know it, the new HERS, and the basic engine lump. It is assumed the engine manufacturers will build and design powerplants incorporating all these technologies, but there's no reason why they can supply just the engine lump and each team will develop their own ERS systems. Each team will have to negotiate conditions with their respective engine manufacturers on what is supplied, and as stated, there's no guarantee that Mercedes will want to share their ERS with McLaren, or anyone else. And maybe McLaren want to develop their own system, because as long as you are receiving powerplants from a factory team, there's no way that your powerplant will ever be superior to the factory team's equipment and software. This situation is not exclusive to just Mercedes and McLaren, it may also apply to Ferrari and Sauber, and Renault and Red Bull, for example.

KERS will function as used now, there will be some button or switch to make KERS do it's thing. But HERS will be transparent and used only to enhance the engine, add power and make it more driveable. One obvious use it to eliminate turbo lag, the MHU-H will spool up the turbo if it's lagging the engine.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 1899
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
KERS is restricted in capacity, use, and power levels. HERS is unlimited. KERS feeds the energy back into the drivetrain, and HERS feeds the energy back into the turbo, each are distinct and separate, although they share the same common control unit and storage device.

Actually, it's more complicated than that, the limitations on KERS only relate to a peak power (120kW) and a max transfer from the Energy Storage (eg battery) - the regulations allow for unlimited transfer of power between the two MGUs. This means if the turbo was constantly generating 120kW per lap the driver could permanently power his KERS. There is a diagram at the end of the PDF on page 82.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:50 am
Posts: 2233
Location: Singapore
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ev0lutionz wrote:
In a nut shell, push to pass button.

Incorrect and misleading on so many levels.

KERS is not a push to pass system, that's one way it can be utilised but it is not the only way nor is it its purpose. On the same token, running the engine in a higher power mode is a "push to pass system" whereas KERS has many more applications.

When KERS becomes ERS it will be deployable at maximum power for 33 seconds per lap. Incidentally, I don't believe there is nothing in the regulations that says it has o be deployed at maximum power, rather it lists the maximum deployable energy per lap and lists a maximum deployable power, therefore the 33 seconds is determined by dividing that energy quota by the power. If they deployed ERS at half power they could use it or 66 seconds per lap.

Because of the fact they are getting a minimum maximum of 33 seconds per lap and the system is much more complex (it can be used to spool the turbo, for instance, which could potentially increase the power output of the engine by more than the ERS energy used) it is likely the ERS will be toggle on/toggle off (regulations permitting) and the engine management will control it. This would not be a push to pass system in any way whatsoever.


Ah great insight. Sorry, i'm not an engineer i wouldnt know all these technical stuff. Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What is ERS?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:15 pm
Posts: 2672
To ers human, to forgive divine...

Or something like that.

_________________
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea."

"It's hammer time!"

British Driver Supporter (and Daniel Ricciardo)

Greg Moore - Dan Wheldon


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.139s | 13 Queries | GZIP : Off ]