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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:39 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've read about the upgrades before, this being 2009 i believe when McLaren were playing catch up, there was only 1 or 2 races were their cars were different, one upgrade had to be delayed because it involved the drivers changing their driving techique to make it work which Heikki had more trouble adjusting to.

Also were there's not time to get upgrades onto both cars at the same time its obvious that the faster driver will get preference. i think will find there are very few races were Hamilton had a more updated car than Heikki during their 2 year spell as teammates


It was constant throughout 2009. And again if one driver is getting preference over parts how do you draw a fair comparison?

With in-season testing banned how is a driver to adapt to a new part without running it? If he only runs it in FP then that limits his set up time. Lose Lose situation.


Another way of looking at it. Is comparing Alonso and Massa over the last three years a fair comparison?

But it doesn't limit Hamilton's set up time how you do you figure that out?


Well if HK wasn't racing with it because he needed more miles. Then the only time he could gain the milage was in FP. If he wasn't racing them then those parts wouldcome off and effectively a reset button pressed for set up. However if Hammy was keeping those upgrades on he effectively would have an extra FP or 2 with his race parts. Therefore in that Scenario HK lost out from having to revert to the old parts.


Although I don't think HK ever had the parts on in FP for that scenario to work out. It wasn't a case of needing more miles. He simply didn't get them.

Heikki needing more time to get use to the new parts than Hamilton is surely down to him, i know Hamilton had to make an adjustment to his driving to make some of the up grades work, McLaren weren't prepared to slow development down waiting for Heikki to catch up, this is what some feared might have happened with Button when perhaps they had to take a step back for Button to catch up?

No team likes to take a step back, period! However, things go wrong sometimes. No, McLaren didn't slow development, or how would they have what was the fastest car by the end of the year again.

Heikki complained about not getting updates fast enough as Lewis and strategy slanted to favour Lewis again. It is certainly not the first time McLaren did it, and I'm willing to wager it won't be the last. So why is it so hard to come to terms with?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:31 am 
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I said it last year as well and I will say it again. Heikki didnt do enough to go back to top team.
There was lot of talk about how great he is doing with Caterham and he deserves to go back to top team. And people here in this forum were up in arms when I brought up McLaren performance, but that is one big nasty unwashable blotch on his career. I like Heikki, but he was gunned down by drivers which were driving way way way slower machinery than him regardless of the updates 2 years in a row. That McLaren was not slow enough to end up where he did those 2 years in a row. There was zero doubt in my mind that he will not get top drive this year for sure and I said so. His best chance was with Caterham or likes of Sauber or Force India neither of whom were ever interested in him.

And to expect or even feel that he deserved one more chance in top team is unrealistic. Specially give that nothing special was done at caterham by him. Sure car was not fast enough for all 3 years. But there was no standout performance except one in Monaco which is easiest place to defend you place.

I am not happy to see him go, but this is not something that is unexpected. It was on the wall, and with that situation, his management and himself needed to handle things differently or be ready to be out of the sport like he is now. There was no other alternative. To survive in this sport today, you need exceptional talent, or load of cash. He was not exceptionally talented, nor was he ready or able to bring money with him. And he is out. Nothing unfair about it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:46 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
I said it last year as well and I will say it again. Heikki didnt do enough to go back to top team.
There was lot of talk about how great he is doing with Caterham and he deserves to go back to top team. And people here in this forum were up in arms when I brought up McLaren performance, but that is one big nasty unwashable blotch on his career. I like Heikki, but he was gunned down by drivers which were driving way way way slower machinery than him regardless of the updates 2 years in a row. That McLaren was not slow enough to end up where he did those 2 years in a row. There was zero doubt in my mind that he will not get top drive this year for sure and I said so. His best chance was with Caterham or likes of Sauber or Force India neither of whom were ever interested in him.

And to expect or even feel that he deserved one more chance in top team is unrealistic. Specially give that nothing special was done at caterham by him. Sure car was not fast enough for all 3 years. But there was no standout performance except one in Monaco which is easiest place to defend you place.

I am not happy to see him go, but this is not something that is unexpected. It was on the wall, and with that situation, his management and himself needed to handle things differently or be ready to be out of the sport like he is now. There was no other alternative. To survive in this sport today, you need exceptional talent, or load of cash. He was not exceptionally talented, nor was he ready or able to bring money with him. And he is out. Nothing unfair about it.


Those two points in bold pretty much express how I feel about the situation for him.

Consider his teammate his first two years as well because Jarno was pretty much done after the solid season he had in 2009. He never really did anything that made me go bonkers for him to get another seat somewhere else. Monaco did not do anything for me either, but it was still a darn good performance though.

2008 and worst yet 2009 pretty much set his future. Sadly, but it has happened to so many to whom we liked in the past. All that talk about him going to Sauber or Ferrari or what not. It was not going to happen in the first place.

Also, I still think the performances this season just fell off after the first half of the seaon. Petrov put the nail in the coffin for Kova's career, unless something miraculous happens within the next couple of weeks we do not know about. He was supposed to beat him, but he did not. It was just not the last five races of the season. The whole second half of the season... Well his performace in qualifying at Belgium was a solid attempt, but thats about it though.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:35 am 
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Shame that Heikki won't have a seat. He is a truly nice person and funny too. I suppose he'll drive for another series unless there is a last minute call back to F1.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:54 am 
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Appears there's a new twist in the Caterham 2nd seat drama, according to Russian R-sport website:

F1: Petrov's 2013 Chances Fading

"Vitaly Petrov's chances of a 2013 drive appear to be diminishing as negotiations with Caterham have stalled, his manager Oksana Kosachenko told R-Sport on Sunday."
...
Kosachenko said reports in the German media that Petrov had found new sponsors were not true.

http://en.rsport.ru/auto/20130113/639529554.html

So if Petrov can't get the funding and Kovalainen has no intention of bringing in funds then that may give Bruno yet another chance to not impress.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:38 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Heikki needing more time to get use to the new parts than Hamilton is surely down to him, i know Hamilton had to make an adjustment to his driving to make some of the up grades work, McLaren weren't prepared to slow development down waiting for Heikki to catch up, this is what some feared might have happened with Button when perhaps they had to take a step back for Button to catch up?



Which is BS because there were only set of parts taken to race weekends. He never ran them in FP to get used to them. There was a testing ban remember. So the only time he could have driven them was at a race weekend

Another thing that debunks that theory is he weekend Lewis had a new spec of car, hit it in Practice and had to wait because they had no spare parts.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Publicly Heikki has always acted very professionally and worked very hard for Caterham, even when the team hasn't shown much progress under MG. I don't remember Heikki ever bad mouthing his team in any way, even when Marussia was catching them more than they were catching the midfield. Given that, I don't know where MG is basing his statement. I think Heikki is one of the most respectful drivers on the grid.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:52 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heikki needing more time to get use to the new parts than Hamilton is surely down to him, i know Hamilton had to make an adjustment to his driving to make some of the up grades work, McLaren weren't prepared to slow development down waiting for Heikki to catch up, this is what some feared might have happened with Button when perhaps they had to take a step back for Button to catch up?



Which is BS because there were only set of parts taken to race weekends. He never ran them in FP to get used to them. There was a testing ban remember. So the only time he could have driven them was at a race weekend

Another thing that debunks that theory is he weekend Lewis had a new spec of car, hit it in Practice and had to wait because they had no spare parts.

There was a testing ban in free practice? :?

Hamilton had a new spec car and crashed it in practice, then had to sit out and wait for new parts is that what you're saying?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:54 pm 
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froze wrote:
Publicly Heikki has always acted very professionally and worked very hard for Caterham, even when the team hasn't shown much progress under MG. I don't remember Heikki ever bad mouthing his team in any way, even when Marussia was catching them more than they were catching the midfield. Given that, I don't know where MG is basing his statement. I think Heikki is one of the most respectful drivers on the grid.

That was my thought as well, Heikki has always been very supportive of Caterham at least in public, and gave them the majority of their highlights of the seasons. Doesn't he always credit his Q2 appearances as down to the hard work of the team?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heikki needing more time to get use to the new parts than Hamilton is surely down to him, i know Hamilton had to make an adjustment to his driving to make some of the up grades work, McLaren weren't prepared to slow development down waiting for Heikki to catch up, this is what some feared might have happened with Button when perhaps they had to take a step back for Button to catch up?



Which is BS because there were only set of parts taken to race weekends. He never ran them in FP to get used to them. There was a testing ban remember. So the only time he could have driven them was at a race weekend

Another thing that debunks that theory is he weekend Lewis had a new spec of car, hit it in Practice and had to wait because they had no spare parts.

There was a testing ban in free practice? :?

Hamilton had a new spec car and crashed it in practice, then had to sit out and wait for new parts is that what you're saying?



OH FFS read what I am saying. I've even bolded a bit. There was a testing ban, the only place to test new parts mid-season was FP. If they bolted them on and then took them off because he needed more mileage then he would have lost a session to get his race spec car set up.

FP1 with upgraded car
FP2 with down grade
FP3 downgrade.

Therefore losing a session to get a set up on his race spec car further hindering his cause.

Bolting on an upgrade then taking them off again in FPs does not make sense unless they don't work or it is merely a test. Especially for the reason you give of needing more miles to adjust. It would take three weekends hindering each and everyone of them for him to get the same mileage as keeping them bolted for all 3 FPs. In one weekend would have given him the same mileage if not more inc the race and only affected one race not 2 or more.


And yes Lewis smashed one of the upgrades, but they had no more at the circuit so he had to wait it out until spares arrived. Heikki in FP had a different spec of car.

Which blows your theory out in more than one way because if Hiekki was running the upgrades and taking them off needing more milage. why didn't they just take them off Heikkis car and bolt them onto Lewis' After Hiekki didn't need them anyway. Or if it was later than FP1 Heikkis car would have been reverted to the previous spec leaving a cars worth of spares going on your theory.

Basically your theory of Heikki didn't like the new upgrades and needed mileage so they took them off does not hold any water what so ever.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:40 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heikki needing more time to get use to the new parts than Hamilton is surely down to him, i know Hamilton had to make an adjustment to his driving to make some of the up grades work, McLaren weren't prepared to slow development down waiting for Heikki to catch up, this is what some feared might have happened with Button when perhaps they had to take a step back for Button to catch up?



Which is BS because there were only set of parts taken to race weekends. He never ran them in FP to get used to them. There was a testing ban remember. So the only time he could have driven them was at a race weekend

Another thing that debunks that theory is he weekend Lewis had a new spec of car, hit it in Practice and had to wait because they had no spare parts.

There was a testing ban in free practice? :?

Hamilton had a new spec car and crashed it in practice, then had to sit out and wait for new parts is that what you're saying?



OH FFS read what I am saying. I've even bolded a bit. There was a testing ban, the only place to test new parts mid-season was FP. If they bolted them on and then took them off because he needed more mileage then he would have lost a session to get his race spec car set up.

FP1 with upgraded car
FP2 with down grade
FP3 downgrade.

Therefore losing a session to get a set up on his race spec car further hindering his cause.

Bolting on an upgrade then taking them off again in FPs does not make sense unless they don't work or it is merely a test. Especially for the reason you give of needing more miles to adjust. It would take three weekends hindering each and everyone of them for him to get the same mileage as keeping them bolted for all 3 FPs. In one weekend would have given him the same mileage if not more inc the race and only affected one race not 2 or more.


And yes Lewis smashed one of the upgrades, but they had no more at the circuit so he had to wait it out until spares arrived. Heikki in FP had a different spec of car.

Which blows your theory out in more than one way because if Hiekki was running the upgrades and taking them off needing more milage. why didn't they just take them off Heikkis car and bolt them onto Lewis' After Hiekki didn't need them anyway. Or if it was later than FP1 Heikkis car would have been reverted to the previous spec leaving a cars worth of spares going on your theory.

Basically your theory of Heikki didn't like the new upgrades and needed mileage so they took them off does not hold any water what so ever.

So Heikki had no time to get used to the new parts but Hamilton had all the time in the world, was he given an extra testing miles disposition to do this, do you see where i'm going with this.

Also there was one meeting were Heikki had a new upgrade fitted to his car and he didn't like the feel it was given him so reverted back to the old part.

The fact that Hamilton damaged a new part then had to sit out practice until a replacement part could be transported out to him surely shows just how stretched McLaren where at that point with the developments with the car. If there wasn't time to get the parts on both cars surely you give them to the driver who will make most use of them, or was the 2008 season just a dream that never happened regarding the relative abilities of both drivers.

Also how much performance do you think the upgrades were giving each time, half a second a lap? Very unlikely.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:49 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
froze wrote:
Publicly Heikki has always acted very professionally and worked very hard for Caterham, even when the team hasn't shown much progress under MG. I don't remember Heikki ever bad mouthing his team in any way, even when Marussia was catching them more than they were catching the midfield. Given that, I don't know where MG is basing his statement. I think Heikki is one of the most respectful drivers on the grid.

That was my thought as well, Heikki has always been very supportive of Caterham at least in public, and gave them the majority of their highlights of the seasons. Doesn't he always credit his Q2 appearances as down to the hard work of the team?

Yeah he was supportive, right up until he said he wanted to go somewhere else.
That generally doesn't go down too well with your current team.

Much like Paul di Resta was doing at the Autosport show over the weekend.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
So Heikki had no time to get used to the new parts but Hamilton had all the time in the world, was he given an extra testing miles disposition to do this, do you see where i'm going with this.

Also there was one meeting were Heikki had a new upgrade fitted to his car and he didn't like the feel it was given him so reverted back to the old part.

The fact that Hamilton damaged a new part then had to sit out practice until a replacement part could be transported out to him surely shows just how stretched McLaren where at that point with the developments with the car. If there wasn't time to get the parts on both cars surely you give them to the driver who will make most use of them, or was the 2008 season just a dream that never happened regarding the relative abilities of both drivers.

Also how much performance do you think the upgrades were giving each time, half a second a lap? Very unlikely.


Well if your theory is true (and I can find absolutely no evidence that Hikki kept reverting back to old specs) Even if it happened once it doesn't make it the norm. As we seen this year and Ferrari not all upgrades work. If Hammy had 3 FPs and Q and race during a weekend to get used to new parts. If Heikki was unbolting them obviously he didn't have that time now did he. Usually bits come off after FP1. To allow FP2 for race set up and FP3 for Quali prep. Obviously if Hammy was racing on them he was getting more mileage on them by keeping the parts on for all sessions. Is that really that hard to grasp? someone using a part all weekend gets more mileage to get used to the part than someone who reverts to the old set up. It's a bit like the Spa Dilemma isn't it. Hammy went back to the old wing. Button kept the new one and got it to work.

Nevermind that no team will unbolt an upgrade they are sure makes the car quicker. If they unbolted it they must have had doubts from the telemetry. You never see RBR unbolting bits because it doesn't suit Webber do you?

But then it's a stupid thing to keep posting as McLaren were only bringing one set of upgrades to races so there was No Hiekki needed extra time and they reverted back to the old set up.

Oh and considering the state on the '09 car some of the upgrades were pretty major. IIRC they had to crash test the new back end brought mid season. The upgrades took the car from the back of the grid to race winners.

As for giving the quicker driver blah blah. Not once have I argued any differently. I have just said you cannot draw an accurate reflection of Heikkis talents on the comparison because of the different car specs and strategies. If they are in different specs of cars and running different strategies you can't say categorically that Hiekki was half a second slower. It's like comparing two drivers from different teams and saying Driver Sauber is 3 seconds slower than Driver Force India. How do you know? They are in different cars therefore you don't know how much is due to the car and how much is down to the driver.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:28 pm 
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OutKast wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
I said it last year as well and I will say it again. Heikki didnt do enough to go back to top team.
There was lot of talk about how great he is doing with Caterham and he deserves to go back to top team. And people here in this forum were up in arms when I brought up McLaren performance, but that is one big nasty unwashable blotch on his career. I like Heikki, but he was gunned down by drivers which were driving way way way slower machinery than him regardless of the updates 2 years in a row. That McLaren was not slow enough to end up where he did those 2 years in a row. There was zero doubt in my mind that he will not get top drive this year for sure and I said so. His best chance was with Caterham or likes of Sauber or Force India neither of whom were ever interested in him.

And to expect or even feel that he deserved one more chance in top team is unrealistic. Specially give that nothing special was done at caterham by him. Sure car was not fast enough for all 3 years. But there was no standout performance except one in Monaco which is easiest place to defend you place.

I am not happy to see him go, but this is not something that is unexpected. It was on the wall, and with that situation, his management and himself needed to handle things differently or be ready to be out of the sport like he is now. There was no other alternative. To survive in this sport today, you need exceptional talent, or load of cash. He was not exceptionally talented, nor was he ready or able to bring money with him. And he is out. Nothing unfair about it.


Those two points in bold pretty much express how I feel about the situation for him.

Consider his teammate his first two years as well because Jarno was pretty much done after the solid season he had in 2009. He never really did anything that made me go bonkers for him to get another seat somewhere else. Monaco did not do anything for me either, but it was still a darn good performance though.

2008 and worst yet 2009 pretty much set his future. Sadly, but it has happened to so many to whom we liked in the past. All that talk about him going to Sauber or Ferrari or what not. It was not going to happen in the first place.

Also, I still think the performances this season just fell off after the first half of the seaon. Petrov put the nail in the coffin for Kova's career, unless something miraculous happens within the next couple of weeks we do not know about. He was supposed to beat him, but he did not. It was just not the last five races of the season. The whole second half of the season... Well his performace in qualifying at Belgium was a solid attempt, but thats about it though.


I agree with the posts above.

Kovalainen threw away his chance at McLaren. Hamilton was given preferential treatment because he was that far ahead of Kovalainen already. And worse, Kovalainen's body language never even suggested that he was worried when that was happening, like it was ok for him to be beaten and treated inferiorly. Alonso the year before couldn't even accept equal treatment. Kovalainen was lacking in both results and desire.

With Caterham he has probably driven better but that's it. He wasn't like Alonso in a Minardi or Vettel in a STR. He needed something like that to restore his credentials but he couldn't.

Pay drivers are not new either. They are as old as the sport itself. But usually they can only pick off drivers whose performances are questionable anyway. Pic maybe worse than Kovalainen right now but he may improve. Kovalainen has had more than enough time to show if he had anything special.

Kovalainen is a very nice person but he just doesn't have what it takes. At the very least he is expendable. He never said anything harsh about Caterham to the media but Caterham probably didn't like it when he often stated he wanted to move to a better team.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:56 pm 
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Lentulus wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
froze wrote:
Publicly Heikki has always acted very professionally and worked very hard for Caterham, even when the team hasn't shown much progress under MG. I don't remember Heikki ever bad mouthing his team in any way, even when Marussia was catching them more than they were catching the midfield. Given that, I don't know where MG is basing his statement. I think Heikki is one of the most respectful drivers on the grid.

That was my thought as well, Heikki has always been very supportive of Caterham at least in public, and gave them the majority of their highlights of the seasons. Doesn't he always credit his Q2 appearances as down to the hard work of the team?

Yeah he was supportive, right up until he said he wanted to go somewhere else.
That generally doesn't go down too well with your current team.

Where'd he say that?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:20 pm 
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froze wrote:
Lentulus wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
froze wrote:
Publicly Heikki has always acted very professionally and worked very hard for Caterham, even when the team hasn't shown much progress under MG. I don't remember Heikki ever bad mouthing his team in any way, even when Marussia was catching them more than they were catching the midfield. Given that, I don't know where MG is basing his statement. I think Heikki is one of the most respectful drivers on the grid.

That was my thought as well, Heikki has always been very supportive of Caterham at least in public, and gave them the majority of their highlights of the seasons. Doesn't he always credit his Q2 appearances as down to the hard work of the team?

Yeah he was supportive, right up until he said he wanted to go somewhere else.
That generally doesn't go down too well with your current team.

Where'd he say that?

Try Googling 'Kovalainen McLaren 2013' or 'Kovalainen Ferrari 2013' or 'Kovalainen Sauber 2013'. On each of those searches there are quotes where he says he'd love to go to... etc etc, apart from Sauber where he just says he wants to join a points scoring team.

It's understandable of course, just like it's understandable that the members of his current team wouldn't like hearing it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:11 am 
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Lentulus wrote:
froze wrote:
Lentulus wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
froze wrote:
Publicly Heikki has always acted very professionally and worked very hard for Caterham, even when the team hasn't shown much progress under MG. I don't remember Heikki ever bad mouthing his team in any way, even when Marussia was catching them more than they were catching the midfield. Given that, I don't know where MG is basing his statement. I think Heikki is one of the most respectful drivers on the grid.

That was my thought as well, Heikki has always been very supportive of Caterham at least in public, and gave them the majority of their highlights of the seasons. Doesn't he always credit his Q2 appearances as down to the hard work of the team?

Yeah he was supportive, right up until he said he wanted to go somewhere else.
That generally doesn't go down too well with your current team.

Where'd he say that?

Try Googling 'Kovalainen McLaren 2013' or 'Kovalainen Ferrari 2013' or 'Kovalainen Sauber 2013'. On each of those searches there are quotes where he says he'd love to go to... etc etc, apart from Sauber where he just says he wants to join a points scoring team.

It's understandable of course, just like it's understandable that the members of his current team wouldn't like hearing it.

its true up til mid way point of last season when rumors were flying round he was tipped for a good seat and he said he thinks it will be his last at Caterham he wanted to be in a points scoring car.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:59 am 
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It's ridiculous the cavalier attitude with which Caterham holds for their drivers…

===
Senna is also rumored to take Caterham seat?
Quote:
Also waiting on the final pieces of the 2013 grid to take shape is Bruno Senna, who has been linked with the other remaining race seat, at Caterham

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Quote:
Caterham also has a seat to fill, though not much has been said lately, except that Heikki Kovalainen is being slammed by the team for "respect" issues. Probably wanting more money. Bruno Senna is apparently waiting for that seat and a return to Formula One F1.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:00 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:08 am
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Location: Derby
aryaputhra wrote:
It's ridiculous the cavalier attitude with which Caterham holds for their drivers…

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Senna is also rumored to take Caterham seat?
Quote:
Also waiting on the final pieces of the 2013 grid to take shape is Bruno Senna, who has been linked with the other remaining race seat, at Caterham

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Quote:
Caterham also has a seat to fill, though not much has been said lately, except that Heikki Kovalainen is being slammed by the team for "respect" issues. Probably wanting more money. Bruno Senna is apparently waiting for that seat and a return to Formula One F1.

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senna was in the running from the start Caterham already said he was being considered, it was the media that disregarded him for his experience.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:18 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:55 pm
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Location: Tampere, F1nland
Kovalainen commented Mike Gascoyne's criticism of him while attending the Finnish Sports Personality of the Year ceremony on Tuesday.

Kovy says MG has made colorful comments earlier too, and doesn't mean anything sinister but just wants to motivate the team. He says he's never had any problems working with MG and that MG has never personally criticized him like the recent comments in the press. Kovy adds that Gascoyne's comments have no effect on his Caterham talks, says he's negotiating with Tony Fernandez and Cyril Abiteboul, not with Gascoyne. Kovy also says that at the moment he has no other plans than F1.

Full story in Finnish, I only translated Kovy's comments: http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.s ... otteluihin

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