planetf1.com

But then again Webber is still being used as an example of what other drivers would not be able to do with the Red Bull, also i remember Austin where Hamilton went off the track on the opening lap whilst leading because he was struggling to get heat into the tyres, these things can be very much car dependant or track dependent, also i would think having a car that generally has the best downforce helps with grip as well.

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PFI Pick 10 Competition

Current Standing: 16th

My answer:

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Rosberg - Bottas

^And I don't mean the drivers in my sig!

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Rosberg - Bottas

none, vettel is the best driver in f1. you don't win 3 titles in a row at his age by luck. alonso has proved this season he is the second best driver though

You are missing the point. Regardless of what the car has or has not got you still have to have the confidence to know where to brake. As the first lap is a completely new experience drivers are that wee bit tentative, they don't know where the braking points are because they have never driven the car with that load on in those conditions. For all intents and purposes the first lap is like the first lap of FP1 it's a sighter lap. For whatever reason Seb is not so tentative. He has more confidence in the car, he brakes that bit later etc . That is nothing to do with the cars ability to heat the tyres. It is the drivers ability in assessing the situation and making the most of it.

The same could be said to a smaller extent after safety car restarts.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

If no Marko:

Hamilton,
Alonso,
Kimi,

Depends on track and weather aswell, if it rains I think Vettel might edge Alonso. At times I think Button would beat Vettel too.
But at the end of the season I believe the three I mentined would be the only ones beating him.

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Lewis Hamilton #1!

Alonso, Kimi, Grosjean, Massa, Bianchi, Hulkenberg, Button, Perez.

Mercedes AMG Petronas
Ferrari
Lotus F1
Vodafone McLaren Mercedes

But Hamilton beat Alonso in equal equipment... so how does this theory get anywhere near reality?

I think Alonso and Hamilton would come close, but all 3 are very equal and would be an excellent fight to watch.

All 3 have different strengths and weaknesses so it'd probably depend on the conditions and how the car behaves.

I couldn't see Kimi or Jenson beating him over a season but they wouldn't lag that far behind.

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Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes

Hahahaha, it seems some people were either drunk or sleeping during all 2004 season. FYI Trulli sucked badly on Sundays, that's why he got kicked half-way through.

On topic. Who cares since none of the big drivers is due to join RBR, but if that were the case it all would depend on many variables, being Marko the most of importan of them.

Because they don't like him so have to used flawed logic and dispute facts with none factual arguments. Just bashers as usual ruining the forum.

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Driver Instructor & Test Driver

No alot of water has passed under the bridge since '07.

Times change, attitudes change and maybe most importantly rules changed.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

This thread is only here because Vettel is the most successfull Young driver in history and the driver you like isn't

Yes and Hamilton was a rookie in 2007, the most logic to use there is he improved allot since then, that's how it works in motorsports, but of course because you hate Hamilton with all your heart than this is impossible, instead you instantly think it's the other way round.

The forum is a sad state of affairs these days, posters using flawed none factual logic to argue against real logic and facts, that's why the forum is so crappy these days, happy I don't have the time to be here with such low posting and won't be in the future as the quality of posting is awful, especially considering you have people who think they know it all trying to dispute logic/facts with none factual logic and none facts because they hate a driver with personal hatred.

Enjoy living in the none real world.

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Driver Instructor & Test Driver

If you don't like posting here so much then why do you come back? Just leave. You won't be missed.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

And Alonso couldn't have improved? Or deal with the current rules better?

And there are no rules that a driver must improve after their rookie year. Plenty of drivers have not been able to repeat their form after their rookie season. Or have waned off after a few years.

In short taking 2007 as the de facto reason Alonso will always be worse than Hammy is ignoring everything that has happened in the intervening years.

Edit for Logic and facts.



Brackets are applying the usual 2.5 ratio.

Oh and what does it say when he hasn't beaten Alonso in the WDC since '09?

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

So logic is flawed when they do not tally with your thinking? What facts are these exactly that show hamilton has improved since his rookie year?

Hamilton matched Alonso in a particular set of circumstances. It does not mean he would match him every year and what we have seen since 2007 leads a lot of people to conclude that Alonso may be better placed to beat Vettel. For example Hamilton has never put a run of results together like Vettel did Singapore - India where as Alonso has shown he can do this.

So you think if Hamilton crashes in every race during the rest of his career and Alonso wins every race in the rest of his Hamilton should still be ranked above Alonso because for a brief moment in time he was superior?

Your avatar is just so perfect for some of the posts on here.

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He wasn't kicked half way through. He competed in 15 of 18 races in Renault and had one more point compared to Alonso during that time frame....

* He got the only race win for Renault Alonso couldn't win any race with the same car...
* Trulli ahead 5 - 3 in races when both of them finished.
* He got 2 poles while Alonso got 1 pole.
* Trulli also won the qualifying battle.

If Trulli sucked so badly in races, what does that say about Alonso then?? But I totally agree with you in one respect. Indeed it seems some people were either drunk or sleeping during all 2004 season...

Trulli was sacked by the same guy who engineered Alonso's 2008 Singapore crashgate win and who was "coincidentally" Alonso's manager. The same guy who fired race driver Button and replaced him with Alonso. Flavio has always been catering for his driver's reputation and interests.

Me. Because I'd just lock Seb and Heikki in my house all season.

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I don't think anyone from the present grid.

I would LOVE to see Hammy, Alonso and Kimi and Seb in the same car though! If I had to pick one, I'd also side with Alonso. I'd put Hammy 2nd and Kimi 3rd but it wouldn't surprise me if Kimi could surprise us.

But Hamilton was a rookie and Alonso a double world champion. So being 'well matched' under those circumstances is a huge loss for Alonso.

However, that is not to discount Alonso's talent and ability. Racing 101 teaches us that any champion can be beaten in any given race or season against an able competitor. The point is one cannot accurately speculate on outcomes pitting two top drivers against one another. Trying to add impossible qualifiers (like all things equal) only makes the comparison more of a fantasy.

All things are not equal. Alonso, Button and Kimi have more experience in general and Vettel has more experience in the Red Bull than all of the other champions, including Hamilton - and the car was developed around his skill set. In that circumstance, Vettel wins hands down every time. All else is fantasy.

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If Lewis car had not failed, he would.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Each season is different; Hamilton was the best-prepared driver in F1 history at McLaren as a rookie as well as having enormous talent. Alonso was new to the team, and given no preferential treatment whioch eh excpected; the harmony wa gone from the whole team that year after all the wrangling.
Hamilton has had a couple of slightly off-seasons since 2007; Alonso has not.

I do not believe Hamilton or Vettel would beat Alonso if all were in same-cars and with experience of the team. Dolomite's/Alienturnedhuman's polls shows that most PF1 enthusiasts rate Alonso above Hamilton and Vettel and have done so for soem time. Most of the drivers do too, and almost all team principals.

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http://grandprixratings.blogspot.com

a couple of slightly off seasons? Wich "couple" the only is 2011.
Alonso did not cover himself with glory 2008 & 2009 the car was not great but Alonsos performances where rather lackluster sometimes.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

The ones since his championship where he finished 4th or 5th. Oh wait, that's all of them.

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So every driver who does not win the WDC has an off season?

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

He wouldn't he would have won more races for sure and would have been a very deserving champion but he was never on for four in a row. Anyway that's kind of beside the point he has had 6 seasons now and if he was capable of that kind of run do you not think it would of happened by now? He has never one more than two races in a row.

He wouldn't he would have won more races for sure and would have been a very deserving champion but he was never on for four in a row. Anyway that's kind of beside the point he has had 6 seasons now and if he was capable of that kind of run do you not think it would of happened by now? He has never one more than two races in a row.[/quote]
Ask Mclaren why they build non superior or unreliable cars or have a errorprone pit crew

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Vettel's ability to rile people without even trying is truly a thing of beauty. Keep it up Seb.

If you're supposedly one of the "top 3" you ought to finish in the top 3 in any season you're driving a car capable of winning, IMO.

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This is low, even for this forum here.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Webber cannot be used as an example at all. Apart from the fact that he was used to the RBR's quirks long before Vettel came into the picture, there is not a great deal of time difference lap to lap.

Also, Vettel is the type of a driver who does just what is necessary. He can up his game where required better than most and if he had Alonso, Raikkonen or Hamilton as a teammate at RBR, he would he shifted up a gear right from the very start.

IMO, Alonso as a RBR teammate to Vettel might have matched him but results could have gone either way. I tend to think that Vettel is a better driver than Alonso on hard tyres.

Raikkonen or Hamilton would NOT have beaten Vettel as teammates at RBR. Both those drivers' styles rely on raw speed and Red Bull's lack of it in a straight line would not suited either of them.

In fact, IMO after Alonso, the man who would have competed closest to Vettel in an RBR is Jenson Button.

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Vettel / Raikkonen / Button

No, no, no; it was BIG BAD Whitmarsh and his cohorts that conspired to rob Hamilton of his rightful place on the throne of F1. Hamilton could win in a milk float, but not when he's in the fastest car.

When was the McLaren the fastest car?

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

What is "low" about thinking the top 3 drivers ought to do something crazy like...finish in the top 3?

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As an aside, relating to the top three finishing in the top three, I was just looking at some numbers. Not that this math means anything, but its a mildly interesting way to look at the performance of the top guys in their last 4 seasons with cars capable of winning.

SV 2 1 1 1 = 5
JB 1 5 2 5 = 13
FA 5 2 4 2 = 13
KR 1 3 6 3 = 13
MW 6 3 3 4 = 16
LH 5 4 5 4 = 18

Parts of 2011, and most of 2012 at least.

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What about the car and the team & reliabillity? Crazy things like this

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Ham, Alonso Kimi