planetf1.com

Some drivers have been able to overcome poor reliability, team mistakes, and weak car performance to still finish in the top 3.

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Why did Lewis not finish in the top 3 or win the title 2012?

2009 is a joke to rate the McLaren " capable of winning" compared to the others

2011 was the only off season Hamilton ever had in f1 , to rate the other seasons as a personal off season fronm Hamilton is beyond ridiculous.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

LOL.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Oh I don't think the other seasons are an irregularity. I think 2008 was the one-off.

Lewis finished on the podium what, 5 times in 09? Including 2 wins. So obviously it was capable of winning.

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This is comedy now. Can't take your opinion serious any longer.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

I would actually say that '07 was the high point and has since been slowly waning. In no year even his WDC year did he show the form he did in his rookie year.

If he could capture that '07 form I would say he would be unbeatable. But a lot of things have changed since then and I don't think he will see that sort of form again.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Last year was better than 2007
Honestly 2012 he made less mistakes than 2007 & 2208
2012 was Hamiltons best season to date. The only driver who always got into Q3
had the 2nd most wins, most poles, least mistakes
Everyone knows it was not Hamiltons fault he did not win the WDC 2012.
2009 was a very good seson, too
2010 a very good seson, he was in the title hunt till the last race.

Without the numerous team mistakes 2012 season would have been more consistant than 2007.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

You can't go by what would have been, partly because you don't know, but mostly because placings are handed out for what was.

That's fair. He just hasn't seemed able to put a season together as well as 07. A lot like Webber in that regard. Unfortunately being quick and not making many mistakes on the driver side isn't enough over the course of a year. You need to also maximize bad weekends, and overcome mistakes made by the team, failures of the car. Some have done it, some have not.

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Really because even giving him his DNFs he wouldn't have finished on the podium as much as in '07 and thats with 3 extra races.

'10 if you remember he made two very important mistakes. One on Massa and one on Webber when the pressure was put on. Only twice since '07 has he managed to put in a string of 5 or more top 5 finishes. From 9 podiums to 4 in a row being the most in '10 I think. The only stat I can think of he improved on from '07 is poles in '08. and Fastest laps in '10.



Well wouldn't you say having the best car in '07 kinda balances that out ?

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Being the more complete or faster driver (or even 'better' driver if you want to regard it that way) doesn't automatically translate to winning a teammate battle. Look at Button vs Hamilton over the course of their time at McLaren. I think there's very few people who would say that Hamilton isn't the more talented and faster driver, but over the course of 2011 Button had him firmly in the shade. Also look at Alonso vs Hamilton in 2007. IMO Alonso was a much more complete and at that point 'better' driver than Hamilton but Hamilton matched and technically beat him. A driver's ultimate capability is not always reflected because within the work environment circumstances will play a part including the dynamic, relationships within the team, the style of the car.

In giving my answer I am assuming a Red Bull along the lines of what we have seen for the past few years.

I don't think Alonso would beat Vettel at Red Bull. Alonso's big weakness is that when he feels he's getting beaten, particularly by a teammate he starts to self-destruct. Red Bull would not be prepared to give him #1 status, which IMO would affect him mentally and Vettel would be at least a match for and beat him at some points. Vettel on the other hand is not affected by this so over the course of the season I believe he would overall have the edge. I also think that Vettel is one of the best qualifiers on the grid and he's brilliant at maintaining position when he's at or near the front so that would assist him against Alonso as he'd frequently start ahead of him and be able to maintain that position.

Hamilton and Vettel IMO are very similarly matched on speed so qualifying would be a tussle between them in much the same way as it has been between Webber and Vettel, although even closer. They're also similarly competent and aggressive overtakers, although in different ways. IMO it would depend on whether Hamilton can maximise the performance of the Red Bull in the way that Vettel does and I'm genuinely not sure about that because I don't know if he likes a planted rear end. In the alternative scenario that the Red Bull lacked that planted rear end such as it did at the beginning of 2012 Hamilton might have the advantage, but again I'm not sure because Vettel may adjust and take a step forward as I have witnessed him do when faced with other challenges.

I'd actually put my money on Raikkonen being the driver most likely to beat Vettel in the Red Bull. He is consistent and a great racer and is less impetuous on track without compromising his overtaking so Vettel would really have to iron that out and not pick up silly penalties or get into silly tangles. He can race at the front and through the field. Although his qualifying in the past year was not on Vettel's level, Raikkonen has in the past shown himself to be an exceptional qualifier. IMO it would depend on whether that changed - if it did then Raikkonen could have the edge; if it didn't I'd give the edge to Vettel. I'd also note that Raikkonen excelled performance-wise in the Newey McLarens.

But as per my opening paragraph that is not to say I think Raikkonen > Vettel/Hamilton > Alonso.

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Twitter @Jo_Soucek

2010 Singapore was Webbers fault.
Hamilton has also lost due to reliabillity a 2nd place at Barcelons & 3or 4th place at Hungary,2 faulty gear boxes at Japan, caused a grid drop & a gearbox failur during the race.
McLaren lost out in the development race 2nd half of 2010.

Balancing out 2007 & 2012? what a big nonsense.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

What could have Hamilton done better 2012?
Change the wheels himself?
Repair the car himself?

It was absoltely not hamiltons fault he vcould not win 2012.
Nobody could have domne it 2012 at McLaren

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

History does not suggest so.

Senna 1985, 2 wins, 4th WDC
Senna 1986, 2 wins, 4th WDC
Senna 1992, 2 wins, 4th WDC

Prost 1981, 3 wins, 5th WDC
Prost 1982, 2 wins, 4th WDC
Prost 1987, 3 wins, 4th WDC

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

Team principals driver ratings.
Hamilton was definitively rated as top 3 driver beyond 2007 & 2008
only exception 2011 (4th), where Hamilton had a off season due to personal problems


2009:
1. Sebastian Vettel 76
2. Jenson Button 67
3. Lewis Hamilton 65
4. Fernando Alonso 39
5. Rubens Barrichello 35
6= Kimi Raikkonen 30
6= Mark Webber 30
8. Felipe Massa 19
9. Robert Kubica 10
10. Adrian Sutil

2010:
1. Alonso 229
2. Vettel 220
3. Hamilton 196
4. Webber 146
5. Kubica 129
6. Button 86
7. Rosberg 68
8. Hulkenberg 17
. Massa 17
10. Barrichello 11


2011:
1. Vettel 241 UP 1
2. Button 200 UP 4
3. Alonso 188 DOWN 2
4. Hamilton 122 DOWN 1
5. Rosberg 90 UP 2
6. Webber 70 DOWN 2
7. Di Resta 44 NEW ENTRY
8. Sutil 38 RE-ENTRY FROM 2009
9. Kovalainen 26 RE-ENTRY FROM 2008
10. Schumacher 23 NEW ENTRY

2012:
1. Fernando Alonso 269
2. Sebastian Vettel 198
3. Lewis Hamilton 177
4. Kimi Raikkonen 176
5. Jenson Button 104
6. Mark Webber 66
7. Nico Hulkenberg 50
8. Nico Rosberg 30
9. Sergio Perez 30
10. Felipe Massa 27

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

I don't know why you think that's so funny. Let's look at 2012. Lewis had a couple of mechanical failures, a couple of pit stop mistakes, and the team cocked up his fuel once, with a car that was generally quickest at most rounds. Sebastian had a couple of mechanical failures, pit stops that were, on average, a couple of tenths slower than the McLaren guys, and the team cocked up his fuel once, in a car that was quickest at maybe 6 or 7 races. Fernando had good reliability, and solid work from his team, but had a car that was only the best 1 or 2 weekends, and sometimes quite far from the best while his rivals were never worse than 2nd or 3rd quickest. Kimi was in a new team, with pit stops consistently quite far from the top teams, a lot of practice time spent running parts they never raced, a bunch of really awful strategy calls, and a car that was only super quick a few times. If Lewis had contract drama to distract him, then Sebastian and Fernando had constant parts legality scandals, politicking over who is each other's biggest competitor, and general mind game nonsense to distract them as well. Sub Kimi's race rustiness in for drama on his end. Yes, some had more luck than others, but I think on balance they all had fairly equal negatives/stumbling blocks/resistance/obstacles...and we know in which order they finished the season.

As final points - getting the most from your team, which helps minimize mistakes on their end, improves efficiency, and keeps energy levels up which is just good for everything, is part of being a good title contender, and so is putting yourself in a team where you can do that. Being able to manage your career or work with people who can manage your career to give you the best possible chance to succeed is part of being a title contender.

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Previous era points systems rewarded different strengths than today's. And so many things were different about that time anyway, and you're looking at a much larger spread of years. Neither Prost or Senna were the top 3 drivers, opinion-wise, in ALL of their seasons. I'm talking about the here and now, and outlined the last four seasons in competitive cars as a relevant subset.

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so what you are basically saying is, when it goes good it's hammy. When it goes bad it's everyone elses fault.

For example. Did you expect Webber to teleport out of Lewis' way? where was Webber supposed to go? Turn into the wall?

As for Development in 2010. How do you lose out in development but still finish on the podium beating two of your competitors one in the same car as the race winner ?

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

The only team principal voting that matters is the voting they do with their team's checkbook and their decision making. So far only 1 of the recently successful teams has chosen to "vote" for Lewis, and that's McLaren (who have fewer titles than the other 3 teams over the course of the careers of the drivers we have been discussing).

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but that lotus was slower than three other teams in 85 and 86.

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I'm sure Adrian has made a note of that. As far as I can tell teleportation is not against the rules.

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Twitter @Jo_Soucek

This is still utter nonsense. Hamilton had no distraction from his contract negotiations, he was more focused than ever. He drove a flawles season. No driver can do more

There was nothing he could have done, what any driver could have done to avoid the mistakes at the pit stops or the car failures
Vettel lost some points due reliabillity or mistakes but not even close to what Hamilton had lost
Alonso did not suffer any team mistakes and the only reliabillity issue was at qualy
McLarens pitstops impoved after Hamilton had 9! verry slow pit stops wich cost more time & pos, than the slightly slower pit stops from RBR or Ferrari.

McLaren seriously dropped the ball and let Hamilton down, therfore he was not able to get the results he would have had otherwise.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Hang everyone says Alonso was beaten by Hamilton in 07 and mentally broken yet fernando still did a mighty job. I mean was it ron dennis who said about 07 "we were not fighting kimi but alonso" Yet he still matched hammy in points and wins only losing out in 2nd place finishes.

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Has nothing to to with your claim Hamilton is not top 3, and 2008 was an irregulation.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Webber overshot the corner, had outbraked himself he had no chance to make the corner if he did not use Hamiltons car as "brake" He would have turned into the wall without Hamilton.

Mclaren delayed the upgrades from Silverstone with the new EBD , while Ferrari & RBR managed to run it earlier, wich gave them an advantage

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

I don't know I think 2010 and 2012 were very good. I mean what did he do wrong in those years? Not to much really.

Hamilton made less mistakes than both Alonso & Vettel made at those years!

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

It's like your trying to win an award between you and vettelmessi.

I think we better ring up Oxford Dictionairy and tell them to they need to change the definition of a couple.

Of the top of my head, there was atleast 4 messed up pistols. Two at bahrain, monaco, Europe + slower ones after that.
Mechanical failures Japan, Korea, Singapore, Dubai, China
Didn't fuel him enough when he was clearly dominant.
Puncture dropping him way further back then any driver could of made up
Maldonado Driving into him, wouldnt of been there if it wasn't for pitstop error
Grosjean knocking him out first corner
Hulkenburg knocking him out.
I can go on about smaller things like mclaren not warning Lewis of the positioning of over cars in monaco. Bad safety car timings etc, though everyone gets those small things.

I would happily have a long debate on you where we look at every race, I bet you if we look at every race and took away the mechanical problems, you'll find Hamilton would of won the WDC this year. I have no doubt about it, and I have no doubt it would be by a big enough margin to be able to admit that although we don't know what would have happend if he hadnt of has these problems, he would of clearly won if he didn't with no doubt.

You can tell me if your happy to do that, we can eve start a topic for it where I can show all the calculations etc.

The only error Hamilton made this season on-track was the Valencia incident and even then the majority blame was on Maldonado's head. The off track mistake he made was choosing the wrong rear wing in Spa with the teams guidance. Other than he had his best season to date. 7 pole positions, 4 wins (With two lost due to mechanical issues) and 7 podiums.

Finished 4th in the standings due to factors outside of his control; the numerous cockups by the pitcrew, driving with a broken car in Japan and Korea and still salvaging points, the mechanical failures of Abu Dhabi and singapore, being taken out by Maldonado, Hulkenberg and Grosjean and the puncture in Germany.

I can't see what exactly was wrong with Hamiltons season as a whole in regards to his driving, it was spectacular and he had some amazing races. The fact he was rated 3rd in the team principals (who lets be honest know a lot more than any of us on here, even though some people like to believe otherwise...) and higher than Kimi who finished 3rd in the standings says something. Pundits rate him highly a long with Vettel and Alonso as well. And I think they realise standings at the end of the season aren't representative of what happened throughout the year as you need to look deeper and actually watch what happened to get a true understanding.

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Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes

Just to add, grid penalty at China due a grearbox change
21 places grid drop ( disqualification) at Barcelona because of underfuelling the car
suboptimal clutch settings at Australia, not the best strategy there & Monaco

If you look at the full list you have to wonder how hamilton manged it to still finish in the top5 with all the points he had lost ( about 150)

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

I think you would have to have serious mental problems not to see that Lewis was fantastic last year, he had a few duff weekends but more often than not he was fantastic.

You cannot blame him at all for stuff like pit-stops and when the car flat out failed him. Put Vettel, Kimi and maybe even Alonso in the same circumstances and car last year as Lewis and I would doubt they would have done as well.

Yes, Lewis was off-form in 2011 and was not at his best, but to say in 2012 he is not as good as he was in his rookie year is a bit silly. In qualifying he was scary some weekends and in races he was decent more often than not. In Austin his performance during the race was nothing short of fantastic.

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http://top-people.starmedia.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYXLYDG9UIHNLBM5HUGVVCGXLLVBLB3BSZQ==/imgAyrton%20Senna2.jpg

..or just a serious bias.

I do not like driver x, so will try my best not state anything good about them and given the opportunity highlight everything bad about them.

I like driver y and will avoid stating or highlighting negative about them and highlight positives about them given the opportunity.

Same old story, same posters as ever.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

For those stating WDC standing stats'

Out of interest, what is more of a achievement. Webbers 3rd in 2010 or Buttons 2nd in 2011?

I.e. leading the WDC for half the season but losing it in the last race by 14 points or never being in contention for the WDC and finishing nearly 5 wins worths (112) of points behind the eventual champion in second.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

Still mental issues

From Senna, to Prost, to Lewis, Alonso to even the perfect Vettel. They all make mistakes and have flashes of pure greatness, you would have to be mental not to see that.

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http://top-people.starmedia.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYXLYDG9UIHNLBM5HUGVVCGXLLVBLB3BSZQ==/imgAyrton%20Senna2.jpg

Haribo, you can't have it both ways. If you look at 2010 objectively, Vettel should have been champion with 3 races to go.
The fact the Webber/Alonso/Hamilton were in the title hunt going into the last race was due to Vettel having much more misfortune that those 3. He should have won the 3 races. However the Red Bull was dominant and he was able to claw it back.

Similarly, in 2012 Lewis would have been in the title fight at the last race if the fortune had been a bit more level. There is no doubt Hamilton lost more points due to misfortune that Vettel/Alonso/Raikkonen. Lewis had 7 races ruined by things out of his hands. I think he was only sub par in Australia and Silverstone. Vettel and Alonso maybe had 3 races ruined by incidents.

That is the way the cookie crumbled.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

Spa during qualifying he was not at his best either. I though he was decent in Australia, but maybe you have a better memory.

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http://top-people.starmedia.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYXLYDG9UIHNLBM5HUGVVCGXLLVBLB3BSZQ==/imgAyrton%20Senna2.jpg

Jenson beat him hands down in a straight fight, was able to open a 3 second lead and maintain it. Spa qualifying he got the most out of it, the mistake was with the setup. Judging by the rather immature, pertulant (toys out of the pram) tweets, probably was not his call.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

Firstly - I left out the incidents for ALL of the drivers that involved crashing out, or a crash otherwise ruining a race, because everyone can just argue back and forth about who was at fault for each one of them. They all had times where they cocked up, and they all had incidents where they were totally innocent.

Not one driver on the grid had a mistake-free season in 2012 (or any season for that matter). Some cost more than others. Some made more errors, but still came out ahead, because there is more to winning a season than driving well. As I said, a driver must rally a team to perform at its best, and he must get himself into a team where he can do that. Its all part of being a title contender.

I have never said Lewis drove poorly - on the contrary I think he drove really well most of the time. But that isn't enough, and the difference isn't all down to luck or who has Adrian. Its who fights for it, who keeps the garage going. Its managing your emotions when it counts, ignoring all distractions, turning pressure into motivation, believing you can do it, maximizing results when you haven't been dealt the best hand, and sticking with your process, not just for yourself but for your team. If you've ever worked in a team you know that everyone works just a little bit harder, comes up with just a little more efficient methods, checks everything that one extra time, goes above and beyond the standard, when you have leaders that make you want to. That's the difference when everything is as close as it is right now. You can be amazing in the car, and its just not enough.

When you are the driver, and you are the one ultimately delivering the results - NOTHING is out of your hands. You do everything you need to to make sure your weekend goes to plan. You need to use your influence to ensure the car is right, the mechanics don't make mistakes, and you use your judgement to make sure the mistakes of others on track don't cost you.

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That is just a function of him being the youngest triple world champion. The kid is extraordinarily talented and getting better.

It is always difficult to accept the new star on the block. I've noted it is a bit easier in team sports, but even then you will have people arguing for years and years. Really at this point, I don't care whether Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordon is better - I don't want hear about it anymore,



Great post But I fear it will fall mainly on deaf ears...

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Though i am not much of a hamilton fan, i don't think he made any mistakes this season barring maybe valencia and that too was about 70-30 maldonado's fault. But how exactly is hamilton a better driver now than in 2007 ?
What exactly has he shown in his speed , racecraft etc that is so much of an improvement compared to his debut season?
Coming back on topic i would say only alonso, hamilton , kimi & button could beat vettel but only in certain scenarios.