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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:07 pm 
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button already has
vettel obviously
alonso would with equal treatment
kimi easily
hulk?
any others?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:21 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
button already has
vettel obviously
alonso would with equal treatment
kimi easily
hulk?
any others?


Just to make you happy I'd say - absolutely every driver who has ever driven a F1 car. And some animals, too.

Button - Hamilton is a strange one. Hamilton had an awful year in 2011 and so did Button in 2012. It's hard to know how both of them would perform if they are consistent enough.
Vettel is not obviously. It would be very very close if they are racing with planted rear but if not I'd go for Hamilton.
Hamilton already beat Alonso ones but I do believe Nando is better than he was in 2007. So it would be very close.
Kimi easily not.
Hulk not at this point.

So pretty much to beat a performing Hamilton you'd need all your best and some luck with the details and mechanical end. The same applies for Seb and Alonso.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:23 pm 
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Kimi wouldn't 'easily' beat him. He might stand a chance.
Vettel might.
Alonso, I don't know. Hamilton beat him as a rookie and he evolved.

Hulkenberg, even if he might be able to beat him in a couple of years, not yet.

So that's three people who "might" do it, none of them "easily.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:25 pm 
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Vettel and Alonso might beat him. Might, I repeat.

Others, so far, not.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Depends how you define being beat, if you're just using WDC points and are handicapped in 50% of your races then quite a few drivers i would say

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
button already has
vettel obviously
alonso would with equal treatment
kimi easily
hulk?
any others?

really? Someone starts a thread about who would beat vettel so you start one that is clearly baiting people, thread title not so much but your post is clearly just trying to bait angry reactions.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:37 pm 
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To be fair I think a lot of these are just reaction to a lot of the obviously Pro-Lewis threads that are made to crown him the best driver that ever lived

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:42 pm 
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I think Alonso is the only driver who would beat Hamilton in more than 50% of circumstances. Vettel and Raikkonen would be about 50/50 I expect. All the others Hamilton would have the upper hand under most circumstances.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:45 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
To be fair I think a lot of these are just reaction to a lot of the obviously Pro-Lewis threads that are made to crown him the best driver that ever lived

i agree, but why stoop to the same level like school children its petty. I have many opinions about drivers but don't like threads that are started solely to bait reactions because it just turns nasty quickly. There really is no need its meant to be f1 fans sharing their passion and opinion for the sport and drivers and while i accept opinions are raised during a thread (i have) but to start a thread with the sole purpose of swimming pool off others is childish at best.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:49 pm 
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potter84 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
To be fair I think a lot of these are just reaction to a lot of the obviously Pro-Lewis threads that are made to crown him the best driver that ever lived

i agree, but why stoop to the same level like school children its petty. I have many opinions about drivers but don't like threads that are started solely to bait reactions because it just turns nasty quickly. There really is no need its meant to be f1 fans sharing their passion and opinion for the sport and drivers and while i accept opinions are raised during a thread (i have) but to start a thread with the sole purpose of swimming pool off others is childish at best.


:thumbup:

I fully take back saying that Vettelmessi was better than this.
What's next?

'What animals could beat Hamilton in a running race' - "I think all of them. Even the jellyfish"
'How many F1 drivers could beat Hamilton at changing a lightbulb' - "Hamilton cannot do this, because he is a stupid head"

etc, etc...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:49 pm 
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is this really necessary ? haven't you all had enough 'of my driver is better than yours' !!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:51 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
Vettelmessi wrote:
button already has
vettel obviously
alonso would with equal treatment
kimi easily
hulk?
any others?


Just to make you happy I'd say - absolutely every driver who has ever driven a F1 car. And some animals, too.

Button - Hamilton is a strange one. Hamilton had an awful year in 2011 and so did Button in 2012. It's hard to know how both of them would perform if they are consistent enough.
Vettel is not obviously. It would be very very close if they are racing with planted rear but if not I'd go for Hamilton.
Hamilton already beat Alonso ones but I do believe Nando is better than he was in 2007. So it would be very close.
Kimi easily not.
Hulk not at this point.

So pretty much to beat a performing Hamilton you'd need all your best and some luck with the details and mechanical end. The same applies for Seb and Alonso.


Is 2010 consistent enough to tell?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:53 pm 
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mds wrote:
Kimi wouldn't 'easily' beat him. He might stand a chance.
Vettel might.
Alonso, I don't know. Hamilton beat him as a rookie and he evolved.

Hulkenberg, even if he might be able to beat him in a couple of years, not yet.

So that's three people who "might" do it, none of them "easily.


so has alonso, he evolved too, i dont think alonso recieved equal treatment in 2007 as macca was so desperate for a rookie to win WDC

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Sevenfest wrote:
potter84 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
To be fair I think a lot of these are just reaction to a lot of the obviously Pro-Lewis threads that are made to crown him the best driver that ever lived

i agree, but why stoop to the same level like school children its petty. I have many opinions about drivers but don't like threads that are started solely to bait reactions because it just turns nasty quickly. There really is no need its meant to be f1 fans sharing their passion and opinion for the sport and drivers and while i accept opinions are raised during a thread (i have) but to start a thread with the sole purpose of swimming pool off others is childish at best.


:thumbup:

I fully take back saying that Vettelmessi was better than this.
What's next?

'What animals could beat Hamilton in a running race' - "I think all of them. Even the jellyfish"
'How many F1 drivers could beat Hamilton at changing a lightbulb' - "Hamilton cannot do this, because he is a stupid head"

etc, etc...

At least you gave a forummer a chance to prove his worth and calibre. Kudos to you good sir.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:10 pm 
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metamorphomisk wrote:
mds wrote:
Kimi wouldn't 'easily' beat him. He might stand a chance.
Vettel might.
Alonso, I don't know. Hamilton beat him as a rookie and he evolved.

Hulkenberg, even if he might be able to beat him in a couple of years, not yet.

So that's three people who "might" do it, none of them "easily.


so has alonso, he evolved too, i dont think alonso recieved equal treatment in 2007 as macca was so desperate for a rookie to win WDC


Yes, but I don't think Alonso has as much room for progress as Hamilton, being the rookie. Alonso already was a two-time WDC. Law of the handicap of a head start...

And I'm not saying Hamilton would win a next duel, just that he might.

As for the equal treatment: I don't recall Hamilton being favoured in, for example, Australia and Monaco 2007 on race day (if I recall correctly, in Australia Hamilton was pitted early and also in Monaco he was pitted out-of-place where he could have won).


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:44 pm 
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I predicted Button would get beaten but not by very much (which was true in 2010 and 2012). However, his 2011 season was quite the contrary.

So there are flaws in Lewis Hamilton. But do I think he'll have another 2011 disaster?
No. Therefore I think only the very top could take him on in identical machinery from here on in.

Alonso? I believe he would win Round 2. Although Hamilton is the thorn in his side. Lewis could upset the applecart again.
Vettel? Maybe, just maybe. They both have great one lap speed & Vettel's one lap speed is the secret to his success. The guy who would win on Saturday would finish ahead in the WDC.
Raikkonen? Has a consistency that Hamilton hasn't shown since 2007. Hamilton would be more spectacular, Raikkonen would gather more points.

The rest? Nope.

I don't see Rosberg standing a chance as I never rated him highly but he may prove me wrong. I'm looking forward to that battle.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:50 pm 
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Damn, bring on the new season already and we will get our answers instead of mindless debating here..


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:56 pm 
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This vettelmessi is a joke, too basic in baiting.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:33 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
button already has
vettel obviously
alonso would with equal treatment
kimi easily
hulk?
any others?

Kimi, too slow now
Vettel needs a car build around him, and Dr Marko
Alonso, maybe depends on the team,

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Given the a fairly equal share of luck and reliability.

I see only Alonso maybe edging him. It would be 50/50

I think he beats Vettel and Kimi

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:10 pm 
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No driver would beat him every time (by time I mean season).

Jenson has already beaten him once.
I think of Alonso and Vettel as the only ones good enough to beat him directly, but not every time.
Kimi and Rosberg might beat him but it would probably be through attrition like Jenson.
As Hulk was mentioned let me say that I'm very fond of him but right now he is not there yet. He may get there in the future though.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:13 pm 
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sennafan24 wrote:
Given the a fairly equal share of luck and reliability.

I see only Alonso maybe edging him. It would be 50/50

I think he beats Vettel and Kimi

...........

so button can beat him over a season and on points over 3 years yet you don't think vettel and kimi ( superior drivers ) can't?

had alonso been given equal treatment in 2007 he would of already beat him also


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:20 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
sennafan24 wrote:
Given the a fairly equal share of luck and reliability.

I see only Alonso maybe edging him. It would be 50/50

I think he beats Vettel and Kimi

...........

so button can beat him over a season and on points over 3 years yet you don't think vettel and kimi ( superior drivers ) can't?

had alonso been given equal treatment in 2007 he would of already beat him also


We all know you are a troll, but I will entertain this.

Lewis still beat Jenson two seasons out of three, and outraced him in the majority of races. Plus in the last season Lewis had a ton of bad fortune that was out of his hands and still beat Jenson on points. Lewis proved in the last season that for now he is a better driver than Jenson.

I am just speculating what I think would happen, I believe Lewis vs ALonso 2 as teammates again could go either way.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:22 pm 
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he still lost to button in 2011, and was outscored during their time together as teammates. facts are facts deal with it


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:27 pm 
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Inappropriate post removed

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Who COULD? JB, Fernando, Kimi, Felipe, Seb, Nico R, maybe Mark. Who WOULD depends on which team they are driving in.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Alonso - I think that now, mentally, he knows what to expect from Hamilton. He won't break down mentally like he did in 2007. Because of that, I think he's more likely to beat Hamilton this time

Vettel - I think he has a chance. Vettel seems to really....annoy Hamilton. Hamilton sometimes, to me, seems almost obsessed with beating Vettel. Like at one race he radio'd back to the team saying something along the lines of "what is Vettel doing". I think Vettel winning his title in 2010, and seemingly about to run away with it in 2011 is a factor in what caused Hamilton's appalling 2011 season. He seemed to me to be almos unable to cope with the possibility of Vettel having more titles than him. I don't think it bothers him as much to see Alonso win, as he's raced him and he's almost proved to himself that he can take on Alonso and beat him. He doesn't have that assurance with Vettel. I think because of that, if they were paired up together, Hamilton is more likely to overdrive, in order to beat Vettel and consequently make mistakes.

Or alternatively, I could be suffering from F1 withdrawal systems and I've over-dramatized this Vettel-Hamilton Relationship.

Oh and I don't think any of the others stand a realistic chance.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:36 pm 
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I don't think anyone could beat Hamilton easily in equal machinery given the cars don't fail.
Hamilton for me is one of the top 5 drivers on the grid with the others being Alonso, Raikkonen, Vettel and Massa.

YES I said Massa. Given the car is to Massa's Liking he is dynamite and he's usually the most difficult driver to overtake.

Hamilton and Vettel are quite similar and closely matched when it comes to Qualy and both are similar when it comes to pulling a gap while up front with Vettel edging him by a hair. When it comes to passing, Hamilton is the best, no question and that's where the real difference lies between them. Vettel is an excellent passer himself, but Hamilton is more Mansell-like with the visible eagerness to get past people, and just like Mansell, he usually makes them cleanly in a very short amount of time. Alonso can at times make great passes but sometimes he'll come up on a driver he's reeled in with blistering pace and then struggle to find a way past. Raikkonen is the one who for me is a gamble. The guy is undoubtedly quick but for some reason as fast as he's lapping he sometimes doesn't seem to make up ground on those who are lapping slightly slower up ahead. It's strange.

Anyhow, I agree that the OP was likely looking to incense folks rather than lodge a civil and intelligent debate, though that's what most of us have done so :P

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Vettel
Kimi
Button
Perez


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:52 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Perez

Could you explain this one for me please.

Like Hulky, I have not seen enough evidence as of yet that they can compete at the top-level consistently. Not calling you out, just interested in your opinion.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:54 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
Given the car is to Massa's Liking he is dynamite and he's usually the most difficult driver to overtake

...cos he'll take your wing off...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:06 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
the incubus wrote:
Given the car is to Massa's Liking he is dynamite and he's usually the most difficult driver to overtake

...cos he'll take your wing off...

I take it you've all but removed all of 2007-2009 from your memory banks when Massa was one of the best 3 and most consistent drivers in all of F1. All some people remember are the little negatives so they can then take jabs at people. Seriously, this isn't 2nd grade.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:10 pm 
Please do not accuse others of trolling. Use the report function.

Whilst I am not convinced by the OP's motives, the discussion from other members has been sensible enough that I am willing to leave this thread open.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:15 pm 
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Interested to see some people saying Button. From what I saw Hamilton overall had the better of him over the past 3 years. Over their time as team mates if you look at who finished ahead when both finished the race, Hamilton comes out well on top:

2010: 10-3 in Hamilton's favour.
2011: 7-7, despite Hamilton having a pretty poor year overall
2012: 8-3 in Hamilton's favour.

So overall I make that 25-13 in Hamilton's favour. And I highly doubt that adding the qualifying results into the equation would further Button's case.
So I guess it depends which you think is more important: a points system where points are awarded to finishing positions in a largely arbitrary manner, or looking at who beats who more often. I feel it is the latter.


So in my view Alonso would beat Hamilton if they were paired together again. Alonso clearly wasn't at his best in 2007 (just look at his error-strewn Canadian GP - nothing like what we have come to expect from him over the years) due to being unsettled within the team (resulting from his own lack of maturity at the time in my view). The Alonso of today would come out on top I think, but it would be close.

As for Vettel, it would probably depend on how good the car is. In the best car, I think Vettel would win. In the 2nd or 3rd best, I think Hamilton. But as with Hamilton and Alonso, there is very little to choose between them.

I don't think anyone else could beat him in the same car. As far as I'm concerned Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are a class above the rest.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:17 pm 
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With the reliability Mercedes will likely have next year, Rosberg will probably beat him quite regularly, simply by finishing.

I don't believe he has ever been dominated by a teammate, including Jenson, and I don't believe he ever will be.

As for the 'obviously' and 'easily', that's just baiting nonsense, and doesn't deserve a dignified response.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Button
Vettel
Kimi

i think those are the ones (from the proven lot) who can do it, won't do it by a large margin and won't do it consistently. I don't think Alonso has it in him. I'd sya teh one best placed to beat Hamilton would be Vettel for his excellent qualifying and race pace, both Jenson and Kimi would lose out in qualifying but can win in the race.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:35 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
mcdo wrote:
the incubus wrote:
Given the car is to Massa's Liking he is dynamite and he's usually the most difficult driver to overtake

...cos he'll take your wing off...

I take it you've all but removed all of 2007-2009 from your memory banks when Massa was one of the best 3 and most consistent drivers in all of F1. All some people remember are the little negatives so they can then take jabs at people. Seriously, this isn't 2nd grade.

Jokes clearly don't work on the internet.

On a serious note I never rated Massa. My opinion has always been that he is mediocre and occasionally good (note: occasionally). There was the odd race where he made me sit up and take notice e.g. I was truly gobsmacked watching Hungary 2008. Best race of his life. He was damn near unbeatable in Turkey and Brazil also.

2007 he drove a good season to be fair. Kept in the fight until late on. And he took important points off the McLaren boys. I didn't think he had it in him.
2008 he was mostly dreadful and I will always believe the FIA tried to fix the title in his favour.
2009 I thought he had really got his act together. I was genuinely impressed. His best season (half season?) in F1 in my opinion.

But top 3 driver in that time? I never thought so.
Alonso, Kubica, Hamilton, Raikkonen and then maybe Massa. Although Button was damn impressive in 2009, as was Vettel.
Massa has some good stats from that period but the PF1 forum will tell you that stats never tell the full story.

And I could easily be wrong but I don't believe the crash has affected his driving ability. He came out of the blocks running in 2010. But overall I think his last few seasons fit in line with my general opinion of his skills unfortunately.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:41 pm 
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It finished 2-1 to Hamilton. 25-13 in Hamilton's favour.

Based on what?

It was equal treatment and Hamilton won as a rookie. (Alonso would throw his toys out the pram again if challenged like he was in 2007)

Based on what?

Based on what?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:46 pm 
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What happened there?

What happened there?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:48 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
To be fair I think a lot of these are just reaction to a lot of the obviously Pro-Lewis threads that are made to crown him the best driver that ever lived

No they're not, Lewis-haters just have a complex where they seem to think the whole world loves him. Vettel, Kimi and Alonso have plenty of threads that crown them the "best driver ever", it's not like it's only Hamilton fans who are irrational.

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