Blake wrote:
mcdo wrote:
On a serious note I never rated Massa. My opinion has always been that he is mediocre and occasionally good (note: occasionally). There was the odd race where he made me sit up and take notice e.g. I was truly gobsmacked watching Hungary 2008. Best race of his life. He was damn near unbeatable in Turkey and Brazil also.
2007 he drove a good season to be fair. Kept in the fight until late on. And he took important points off the McLaren boys. I didn't think he had it in him.
AND what is that worth? Not bad for a mediocre driver, I'd say. Helped his team to a WCC & WDC... just what he was supposed do.
I did say he was occasionally good! I started to change my opinion of Felipe in 2007. But 2008 put it back.
Blake wrote:
mcdo wrote:
2008 he was mostly dreadful and I will always believe the FIA tried to fix the title in his favour.
Baloney... fix the title in HIS favour? What on earth for? Just how many times did they "fix the title" so that he was within one last turn on the last lap of the last race of being the WDC. If he could lose the WDC by one point and he is "mediocre" what they hell does that make all the other drivers? surely beating a mediocre driver by one point doesn't make Hamilton great? And to not even finish second ahead of a mediocre driver doesn't say much for the other drivers either, does it?
Massa was mostly rubbish in 2008. And Hamilton didn't cover himself in glory either. We had the Kimi show as well. It was like watching a bad comedy.
I am convinced (as are many others) that Massa had the benefit of the FIA on his side.
What for? 2007 and a certain $100m fine.
If Massa won the WDC I would have viewed it with an asterisk to denote that he got help.
Blake wrote:
mcdo wrote:
2009 I thought he had really got his act together. I was genuinely impressed. His best season (half season?) in F1 in my opinion.
So, now he has is "act together"...and after missing the WDC the year before by one point, he NOW impresses you? My gawd man, what does it take to impress you?
WDC standings don't mean fairy cakes. What impresses me is not the guy who spun off in Malaysia, spun while leading in Monaco, probably dizzied himself from the number of 360s he did in Silverstone, put up absolutely no fight to Hamilton in Germany, had a howler in Fuji, was gifted a win in Spa and lost the title by a point.
Why the emphasis on where he came in the WDC standings? I don't see you telling us three-time champ Vettel is better than Alonso.
I think 2009 was Massa at his best. I also thought 2009 was Hamilton's best (until 2012). They didn't need to be WDC contenders to be impressive.
Blake wrote:
mcdo wrote:
But top 3 driver in that time? I never thought so.
Alonso, Kubica, Hamilton, Raikkonen and then maybe Massa. Although Button was damn impressive in 2009, as was Vettel.
Massa has some good stats from that period but the PF1 forum will tell you that stats never tell the full story.
Not Top 3, but good enough for #2 at the end of the year, by but one point? Again, not bad for a "mediocre" driver in my book. How long have you been watching Massa race? Were you around in his pre-Ferrari years? He was a driver with promise then too. I was personally happy when Ferrari signed him to replace Rubens. He has not disappointed.
Yeah I remember when Sauber made him sit out 2003. He was quick but prone to a few disasters.
And he has to be one of the luckiest guys in F1 history to have a Ferrari career as long as he has. Supposedly the original 2007 plan was Schumacher & Rossi (Todt's plan). Massa was a stop gap for 2006. Luca put an end to Todt running the show and signed Raikkonen instead of Rossi. This in turn pushed Schumacher out, leaving a seat for Massa.
Dunno how accurate this info is but it makes for fascinating reading:
http://www.crapwagon.com/forums/archive ... 43431.html I'm inclined to believe all of it to be honest.
Kubica was to partner Alonso in 2012. We all know what happened and Massa is still there.
Blake wrote:
mcdo wrote:
And I could easily be wrong but I don't believe the crash has affected his driving ability. He came out of the blocks running in 2010. But overall I think his last few seasons fit in line with my general opinion of his skills unfortunately.
I am curious just what it takes to impress you. Does a driver have to have a WDC behind his name or risk being "mediocre?" Poor Sir Stirling. I do think that the accident took something out of Massa... confidence. Yes, he did show some flashes of speed post accident, but he also became quite inconsistent. Only in the last part of 2012 did we see the Massa of "old", and I for one am damn glad of it.
I guess I just have a thing for mediocre drivers... you know... Massa, Moss, Alonso....
Nope, a driver never needs to win the WDC to be impressive.
One of the most impressive drivers of the late 2000s was Robert Kubica. It's a crying shame that he's not driving the other red car.
I know its slightly OT, but I don't get the Kubica love. He was OK yeah, but I don't get why he was so highly regarded. Yes he thrashed the hell out of Petrov, who was in his rookie season and simply liked to put the car in the wall on regular occurances... but he was beaten by Heidfeld 3 times out of the 4 seasons they were together. Even discounting the 6 races he had in 2006 he was beaten 2 out of 3 years. Heidfeld had 150 points to Kubica's 137 points over their time together.
I'm not saying Kubica's bad by any means, he was really good in the Renault (though whether it was flattered because of Petrov's rubbishness I don't know), but I find it strange that he's thought of as the WDC that never was etc, when he actually lost more team mate battles than he won.
Back to topic at hand, I'm sure several driver's COULD beat Hamilton, i.e. Vettel Alonso Button or Kimi, but whether they WOULD depends on what happens through the year, and many other factors.