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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:26 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
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I explained to you somewhere else why Webber wasn't at fault. Mainly as Lewis kept him tight which requires a wider exit except Lewis didn't give him room to exit the corner. No driver can simply make his hug the wall to make a corner.

2008 not the best car???? That one is VERY debatable. Many people in the past have suggested the Macca was indeed better than the Ferrari that year.

Had Webbers car no breaks? Hamilton was ahead, on the racing line and had the corner. Webber was beaten he should have backed off.

Interstingly Alonso said himself Ferrari was the car to have the 2nd half of the 2010 season



Webber had the inside line. Lewis didn't have the corner. If he had the corner he could have turned in without touching. Webber wasn't beaten because lewis hadn't completed the overtake got past and around the corner Webber made a perfectly fine defensive move to keep position by forcing Lewis wide. A move Lewis himself has put to great use although the guys he has done it on usually have the sense to go wide and not turn in ending their race.

Having the racing line means nothing and IIRC neither was on the true racing line anyway.

Webber lost the control of the car, and Hamilton had almost overtaken him. It's nonsense to say "Perfect devensive move" when Webber just hit Hamiltons car, overshooting the corner. hamilton was clearly faster, he was ahead, he was almost past, Webber oveshoot the corner & hit Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:29 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
No Hamilton lost his head in Spa on the Saturday when his team mate went 8 tents quicker than him and he didn't understand where most of that time came from. IIRC Hamilton apportioned 4 of those tents to the differing rear wings. The rest he didn't have a bloody clue about. Simply Button outperformed him and he didn't like it. There is no evidence to say he wouldn't have done much better in the race, after all he was regretting that rear wing change big time. No one knows how his race may or may not have gone. But on the Saturday Hamilton lost it completely.

Also Button didn't get away with his dismal spell in 2012. Hamilton fans all over this forum were calling for his sacking, the media were wondering what went wrong, pundits asking if he'd lost something he might not find again. So don't go there.


He said he lost 0.4 on one straight didn't he?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:31 pm 
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Hamilton definitely has more haters... It's coz he is black.



*Note: very clearly a joke after Monaco '11.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:31 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No Hamilton lost his head in Spa on the Saturday when his team mate went 8 tents quicker than him and he didn't understand where most of that time came from. IIRC Hamilton apportioned 4 of those tents to the differing rear wings. The rest he didn't have a bloody clue about. Simply Button outperformed him and he didn't like it. There is no evidence to say he wouldn't have done much better in the race, after all he was regretting that rear wing change big time. No one knows how his race may or may not have gone. But on the Saturday Hamilton lost it completely.

Also Button didn't get away with his dismal spell in 2012. Hamilton fans all over this forum were calling for his sacking, the media were wondering what went wrong, pundits asking if he'd lost something he might not find again. So don't go there.


He said he lost 0.4 on one straight didn't he?

Yup and he said it was because he changed his rear wing before Quali. So what about the other 4 tenths? That's still a big margin between team mates.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:34 pm 
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Thing is both Vettel and Alonso made errors that season as well Belgium remember, which was the race just before Monza. So if we attribute Hamiltons mistake in Monza as choking what do we make of Vettel and Alonso? I think Hamilton does get in his own way and that stops him putting a string of results together like Vettel or Alonso can. I don't think its really pressure related though. He made a huge amount of errors in 2011 when he was not even in the championship race.[/quote]
Oh I know they made errors too but crucially Vettel's were at the right time, if you can make errors at the right time! When it came to crunch time Vettel got the hammer down, had his engine not failed in Korea, not his own doing after all, he'd have won the last 4 races on the bounce. Alonso won two on the bounce prior to Vettel's potential run and when Vettel's engine failed who was the man there to pick up the win? Alonso. Not Hamilton. That's why he was an outside contender by Abu Dhabi. The other two were more consistent of the final part of the year, especially Vettel.

As for 2011, Hamilton's annum horriblils so far. Made far too many errors for someone of his calibre.[/quote]


I think Buttons performances at the end of the season show the Mclaren was vastly inferior to the Red Bull and Ferrari in the second half. Jenson had 2 podiums in the last 10 races. Jenson is a good driver but he was miles behind Vettel/Alonso with the exception of Monza which suited the Mclaren.

Felipe Massa scored more points than Jenson in those 10 races and neither had bad luck/ dnfs etc etc. was just quicker.

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Last edited by lamo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:34 pm 
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You always have to be aware of all possibilities when a driver is up the inside. That includes weighing the option of leaving room for that driver to make an error. Look at Lewis and Nico in Brazil. There are drivers who would have thought "its wet, he's a relative noob holding on for his best ever result, i'm going to give him extra room and be sure I live to keep fighting". That kind of thinking sometimes leads to more consistency in points-earning. But Lewis fans wouldn't be fans if he thought that way. We all love drivers for their equalities that are sometimes their greatest strength and sometimes their greatest weakness, that's what distinguishes each one from the rest. No point in denying the dichotomy though.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:35 pm 
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[quote="Laura23"


Thing is both Vettel and Alonso made errors that season as well Belgium remember, which was the race just before Monza. So if we attribute Hamiltons mistake in Monza as choking what do we make of Vettel and Alonso? I think Hamilton does get in his own way and that stops him putting a string of results together like Vettel or Alonso can. I don't think its really pressure related though. He made a huge amount of errors in 2011 when he was not even in the championship race.[/quote]
Oh I know they made errors too but crucially Vettel's were at the right time, if you can make errors at the right time! When it came to crunch time Vettel got the hammer down, had his engine not failed in Korea, not his own doing after all, he'd have won the last 4 races on the bounce. Alonso won two on the bounce prior to Vettel's potential run and when Vettel's engine failed who was the man there to pick up the win? Alonso. Not Hamilton. That's why he was an outside contender by Abu Dhabi. The other two were more consistent of the final part of the year, especially Vettel.

As for 2011, Hamilton's annum horriblils so far. Made far too many errors for someone of his calibre.[/quote]

Agreed and it is Vettels ability to put a run like that together which puts him just above Hamilton in my opinion. I think its worth pointing out that by the last third of the year the Red Bull and the Ferrari was a more competitve car.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:35 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No Hamilton lost his head in Spa on the Saturday when his team mate went 8 tents quicker than him and he didn't understand where most of that time came from. IIRC Hamilton apportioned 4 of those tents to the differing rear wings. The rest he didn't have a bloody clue about. Simply Button outperformed him and he didn't like it. There is no evidence to say he wouldn't have done much better in the race, after all he was regretting that rear wing change big time. No one knows how his race may or may not have gone. But on the Saturday Hamilton lost it completely.

Also Button didn't get away with his dismal spell in 2012. Hamilton fans all over this forum were calling for his sacking, the media were wondering what went wrong, pundits asking if he'd lost something he might not find again. So don't go there.


He said he lost 0.4 on one straight didn't he?

Yes but with the higher downforce wing fitted he should have made up at least some of that time in the second sector, but he didn't. If I remember correctly Button pretty matched his time through that part of the lap.

Plenty of other drivers have lost their temper in similar circumstances. However they have been sensible enough to keep it behind closed doors.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:36 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
No Hamilton lost his head in Spa on the Saturday when his team mate went 8 tents quicker than him and he didn't understand where most of that time came from. IIRC Hamilton apportioned 4 of those tents to the differing rear wings. The rest he didn't have a bloody clue about. Simply Button outperformed him and he didn't like it. There is no evidence to say he wouldn't have done much better in the race, after all he was regretting that rear wing change big time. No one knows how his race may or may not have gone. But on the Saturday Hamilton lost it completely.

Also Button didn't get away with his dismal spell in 2012. Hamilton fans all over this forum were calling for his sacking, the media were wondering what went wrong, pundits asking if he'd lost something he might not find again. So don't go there.


Who said a race is not won at qualy just a post above?
How can you say how the race would have turned out when Hamilton did not make the 1st corner because of Grosjean?

BTW:
McLaren told Hamilton, there would not be much difference in lap time between the wings, wich was obviously not true!
He understood where the time came from ( the wing) therfore he posted the overlay, to explain it to his followers.

BTW Hamilton managed to qualy 7th, wich was not a "hopeless position" or a position where you can say he lost it completely. He still had very good chances for the race from this position.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:37 pm 
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For what its worth - every mistake isn't due to pressure, and pressure doesn't always manifest itself as a mistake. It can just as easily be a decision to play it too safe.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No Hamilton lost his head in Spa on the Saturday when his team mate went 8 tents quicker than him and he didn't understand where most of that time came from. IIRC Hamilton apportioned 4 of those tents to the differing rear wings. The rest he didn't have a bloody clue about. Simply Button outperformed him and he didn't like it. There is no evidence to say he wouldn't have done much better in the race, after all he was regretting that rear wing change big time. No one knows how his race may or may not have gone. But on the Saturday Hamilton lost it completely.

Also Button didn't get away with his dismal spell in 2012. Hamilton fans all over this forum were calling for his sacking, the media were wondering what went wrong, pundits asking if he'd lost something he might not find again. So don't go there.


Who said a race is not won at qualy just a post above?
How can you say how the race would have turned out when Hamilton did not make the 1st corner because of Grosjean?

BTW:
McLaren told Hamilton, there would not be much difference in lap time between the wings, wich was obviously not true!
He understood where the time came from ( the wing) therfore he posted the overlay, to explain it to his followers.

BTW Hamilton managed to qualy 7th, wich was not a "hopeless position" or a position where you can say he lost it completely. He still had very good chances for the race from this position.

I just said we don't know how Hamilton would have done in the race. Because he was punted out at T1 the only measure we have for him that weekend against Buttom is Quali and Button hammered him.

You know full well what I meant when a race isn't won on Saturdays. It means speed isn't the whole story, you have to be consistent too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Alonso choked in 2010, and again in 2012. There, somebody said it. Stop using "nobody says" as an excuse :lol:

Don't forget 2007, the mother of "Chokes"

The only driver who didn't choke in the final two GPs of 2007 was the WDC that year. Raikkonen. Both McLaren drivers choked at some point over those two races. Hamilton going into that China pit lane and not demanding new tyres sooner, Alonso just didn't seem to have any heart left to fight by Brazil and kinda gave up, Hamilton again went off under pressure at T4 in Brazil on the first lap losing 4/5 places.

As for the McLaren being slower than the Ferrari in 2008. Debatable. They were pretty much even stevens. Some races suited McLaren, some suited Ferrari and the rest where equal. But neither car was better than the other at the end of the year. Hamilton had to beat Massa in what was an equally fast car, he made a bit of a meal of it but came out on top. The only person Hamilton has ever beaten in a straight title fight at the wire is Massa. Alonso has beaten Schumacher, Vettel has beaten Alonso twice, Raikkonen both Hamilton and Alonso. To me that says a lot.


Or perhaps the cars only appeared equal due to the pace difference between Massa and Hamilton? Felipes performances before and since suggest that he may well of had a car advantage. Or maybe he was just better in 2008 than he ever was before or since. I know which sounds most likely to me.

Tbh I think Massa just had a fantastic season and Raikkonen a terrible one. But if Alonso had been in either the 08 McLaren or the 08 Ferrari I personally reckon the title would have been over before Brazil.


Agreed as long as it wasn't the 2007 version of Alonso! I still think the Ferrari was the quicker car though ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No Hamilton lost his head in Spa on the Saturday when his team mate went 8 tents quicker than him and he didn't understand where most of that time came from. IIRC Hamilton apportioned 4 of those tents to the differing rear wings. The rest he didn't have a bloody clue about. Simply Button outperformed him and he didn't like it. There is no evidence to say he wouldn't have done much better in the race, after all he was regretting that rear wing change big time. No one knows how his race may or may not have gone. But on the Saturday Hamilton lost it completely.

Also Button didn't get away with his dismal spell in 2012. Hamilton fans all over this forum were calling for his sacking, the media were wondering what went wrong, pundits asking if he'd lost something he might not find again. So don't go there.


He said he lost 0.4 on one straight didn't he?

Yup and he said it was because he changed his rear wing before Quali. So what about the other 4 tenths? That's still a big margin between team mates.

The wing made the difference.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Don't forget 2007, the mother of "Chokes"

The only driver who didn't choke in the final two GPs of 2007 was the WDC that year. Raikkonen. Both McLaren drivers choked at some point over those two races. Hamilton going into that China pit lane and not demanding new tyres sooner, Alonso just didn't seem to have any heart left to fight by Brazil and kinda gave up, Hamilton again went off under pressure at T4 in Brazil on the first lap losing 4/5 places.

As for the McLaren being slower than the Ferrari in 2008. Debatable. They were pretty much even stevens. Some races suited McLaren, some suited Ferrari and the rest where equal. But neither car was better than the other at the end of the year. Hamilton had to beat Massa in what was an equally fast car, he made a bit of a meal of it but came out on top. The only person Hamilton has ever beaten in a straight title fight at the wire is Massa. Alonso has beaten Schumacher, Vettel has beaten Alonso twice, Raikkonen both Hamilton and Alonso. To me that says a lot.


Or perhaps the cars only appeared equal due to the pace difference between Massa and Hamilton? Felipes performances before and since suggest that he may well of had a car advantage. Or maybe he was just better in 2008 than he ever was before or since. I know which sounds most likely to me.

Tbh I think Massa just had a fantastic season and Raikkonen a terrible one. But if Alonso had been in either the 08 McLaren or the 08 Ferrari I personally reckon the title would have been over before Brazil.


Agreed as long as it wasn't the 2007 version of Alonso! I still think the Ferrari was the quicker car though ;)

Thing is if the Ferrari was marginally quicker, but Hamilton is a way better driver than Massa then why was it still so tight? Hamilton didn't have a great year in 2008, he was just very lucky Alonso was in a poorish car and Raikkonen had a terrible year. The 07 spec Hamilton would have walked 08.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:41 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No Hamilton lost his head in Spa on the Saturday when his team mate went 8 tents quicker than him and he didn't understand where most of that time came from. IIRC Hamilton apportioned 4 of those tents to the differing rear wings. The rest he didn't have a bloody clue about. Simply Button outperformed him and he didn't like it. There is no evidence to say he wouldn't have done much better in the race, after all he was regretting that rear wing change big time. No one knows how his race may or may not have gone. But on the Saturday Hamilton lost it completely.

Also Button didn't get away with his dismal spell in 2012. Hamilton fans all over this forum were calling for his sacking, the media were wondering what went wrong, pundits asking if he'd lost something he might not find again. So don't go there.


He said he lost 0.4 on one straight didn't he?

Yup and he said it was because he changed his rear wing before Quali. So what about the other 4 tenths? That's still a big margin between team mates.

The wing made the difference.


So Buttons low down-force rear-wing made him four tenths faster in the high down-force part of the track?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:41 pm 
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How do you know what "McLaren" told "Lewis"? Lewis WAS McLaren. He sits in the meetings and should have eyes on the data used to form an opinion such as "it won't be that much different". Any time you are looking at a package choice like that you know there will be a cost to one part of performance and a benefit elsewhere. You choose if its worth it. It doesn't always work out the way you'd hoped.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:41 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No Hamilton lost his head in Spa on the Saturday when his team mate went 8 tents quicker than him and he didn't understand where most of that time came from. IIRC Hamilton apportioned 4 of those tents to the differing rear wings. The rest he didn't have a bloody clue about. Simply Button outperformed him and he didn't like it. There is no evidence to say he wouldn't have done much better in the race, after all he was regretting that rear wing change big time. No one knows how his race may or may not have gone. But on the Saturday Hamilton lost it completely.

Also Button didn't get away with his dismal spell in 2012. Hamilton fans all over this forum were calling for his sacking, the media were wondering what went wrong, pundits asking if he'd lost something he might not find again. So don't go there.


He said he lost 0.4 on one straight didn't he?

Yup and he said it was because he changed his rear wing before Quali. So what about the other 4 tenths? That's still a big margin between team mates.

The wing made the difference.

Hmm. On the straight maybe, in the corner's he should have and an advantage.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:43 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No Hamilton lost his head in Spa on the Saturday when his team mate went 8 tents quicker than him and he didn't understand where most of that time came from. IIRC Hamilton apportioned 4 of those tents to the differing rear wings. The rest he didn't have a bloody clue about. Simply Button outperformed him and he didn't like it. There is no evidence to say he wouldn't have done much better in the race, after all he was regretting that rear wing change big time. No one knows how his race may or may not have gone. But on the Saturday Hamilton lost it completely.

Also Button didn't get away with his dismal spell in 2012. Hamilton fans all over this forum were calling for his sacking, the media were wondering what went wrong, pundits asking if he'd lost something he might not find again. So don't go there.


Who said a race is not won at qualy just a post above?
How can you say how the race would have turned out when Hamilton did not make the 1st corner because of Grosjean?

BTW:
McLaren told Hamilton, there would not be much difference in lap time between the wings, wich was obviously not true!
He understood where the time came from ( the wing) therfore he posted the overlay, to explain it to his followers.

BTW Hamilton managed to qualy 7th, wich was not a "hopeless position" or a position where you can say he lost it completely. He still had very good chances for the race from this position.

I just said we don't know how Hamilton would have done in the race. Because he was punted out at T1 the only measure we have for him that weekend against Buttom is Quali and Button hammered him.

You know full well what I meant when a race isn't won on Saturdays. It means speed isn't the whole story, you have to be consistent too.

All season 2012 Lewis was a lot more consistant than Button in the races and at qualy.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:44 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No Hamilton lost his head in Spa on the Saturday when his team mate went 8 tents quicker than him and he didn't understand where most of that time came from. IIRC Hamilton apportioned 4 of those tents to the differing rear wings. The rest he didn't have a bloody clue about. Simply Button outperformed him and he didn't like it. There is no evidence to say he wouldn't have done much better in the race, after all he was regretting that rear wing change big time. No one knows how his race may or may not have gone. But on the Saturday Hamilton lost it completely.

Also Button didn't get away with his dismal spell in 2012. Hamilton fans all over this forum were calling for his sacking, the media were wondering what went wrong, pundits asking if he'd lost something he might not find again. So don't go there.


He said he lost 0.4 on one straight didn't he?

Yup and he said it was because he changed his rear wing before Quali. So what about the other 4 tenths? That's still a big margin between team mates.

The wing made the difference.

Hmm. On the straight maybe, in the corner's he should have and an advantage.

But he hadn't because they got it wrong with the difference between both wings.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:47 pm 
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Haribo, the wing Lewis used should have been quicker in the corners, the wing Jenson had quicker inthe straights. Simple as that. Hamilton couldn't make his wing work, Jenson did. That was the difference between Pole and 7th. The difference between being at the head of the grid away from potential trouble and being on the 4th row in the middle of it.

Most pundits agreed that Hamilton dropped the ball with his set up and he couldn't make his set up work properly and that cost him dear.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:48 pm 
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But he hadn't because they got it wrong with the difference between both wings.


So Button got fourth tenths on the straight from his low down force rear wing. But with this low down force rear wing he could also go faster in the high down force part of the circuit, and it was all down to said wing and nothing to do with Button just having to bit-between his teeth or Hamilton having a bad session.

McLaren should use their magical highy-highy-lowy-lowy rear wing more often if it works in both sectors!

Lewis Hamilton vs. The Laws of Physics.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:48 pm 
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Lewis was screwed once he had that wing.

However, Vettel had a high downforce set up qualified 1.150 seconds down on Jenson and appear to have a race pace equal to the Mclaren. Vettel certainly had a better race pace than Kimi who out qualified him by 0.5

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:50 pm 
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H-Holloway wrote:
Quote:
But he hadn't because they got it wrong with the difference between both wings.


So Button got fourth tenths on the straight from his low down force rear wing. But with this low down force rear wing he could also go faster in the high down force part of the circuit, and it was all down to said wing and nothing to do with Button just having to bit-between his teeth or Hamilton having a bad session.

McLaren should use their magical highy-highy-lowy-lowy rear wing more often if it works in both sectors!

Lewis Hamilton vs. The Laws of Physics.


Mclaren have split the setup of their cars twice in the last three years and both times Jenson thrashed Lewis. I am not calling conspiracy, but Jenson "having the bit between his teeth" has never really happened in qualifying when they have been running the same specification car. The other example being Monza 2010.

Furthermore, the "low" down force wing was very efficient with drag and downforce. Mclarne ran it in Spa/Monza/Singapore three races they dominated. It was only when they switched to another wing the fell well behind.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:53 pm 
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lamo wrote:
H-Holloway wrote:
Quote:
But he hadn't because they got it wrong with the difference between both wings.


So Button got fourth tenths on the straight from his low down force rear wing. But with this low down force rear wing he could also go faster in the high down force part of the circuit, and it was all down to said wing and nothing to do with Button just having to bit-between his teeth or Hamilton having a bad session.

McLaren should use their magical highy-highy-lowy-lowy rear wing more often if it works in both sectors!

Lewis Hamilton vs. The Laws of Physics.


Mclaren have split the setup of their cars twice in the last three years and both times Jenson thrashed Lewis. I am not calling conspiracy, but Jenson "having the bit between his teeth" has never really happened in qualifying when they have been running the same specification car. The other example being Monza 2010.

Or perhaps Jenson is just better at setting his car up sometimes. Happens in every team.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:55 pm 
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lamo wrote:
H-Holloway wrote:
Quote:
But he hadn't because they got it wrong with the difference between both wings.


So Button got fourth tenths on the straight from his low down force rear wing. But with this low down force rear wing he could also go faster in the high down force part of the circuit, and it was all down to said wing and nothing to do with Button just having to bit-between his teeth or Hamilton having a bad session.

McLaren should use their magical highy-highy-lowy-lowy rear wing more often if it works in both sectors!

Lewis Hamilton vs. The Laws of Physics.


Mclaren have split the setup of their cars twice in the last three years and both times Jenson thrashed Lewis. I am not calling conspiracy, but Jenson "having the bit between his teeth" has never really happened in qualifying when they have been running the same specification car. The other example being Monza 2010.


This is true. But the point I am arguing is that Haribo seems to be insisting that Button's advantage was only down to the different rear wings.

While Jenson gained time on the straights he should have lost time to Hamilton in the middle part of the circuit due to Hamilton's higher downforce set up, but he didn't and was punch for punch even between their times in that part of the lap.

So what that suggests to me is that either Button just put in a stonking set of corners or Hamilton made an error/was slightly sloppy and that Jenson's huge advantage during the session was not just down to differing rear wings like Haribo keeps asserting.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:56 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
lamo wrote:
H-Holloway wrote:
Quote:
But he hadn't because they got it wrong with the difference between both wings.


So Button got fourth tenths on the straight from his low down force rear wing. But with this low down force rear wing he could also go faster in the high down force part of the circuit, and it was all down to said wing and nothing to do with Button just having to bit-between his teeth or Hamilton having a bad session.

McLaren should use their magical highy-highy-lowy-lowy rear wing more often if it works in both sectors!

Lewis Hamilton vs. The Laws of Physics.


Mclaren have split the setup of their cars twice in the last three years and both times Jenson thrashed Lewis. I am not calling conspiracy, but Jenson "having the bit between his teeth" has never really happened in qualifying when they have been running the same specification car. The other example being Monza 2010.

Or perhaps Jenson is just better at setting his car up sometimes. Happens in every team.


Yes indeed, after all they only had saturday morning to set the cars up at Spa due to all of Friday being rained off. A big contributory factor in the muddled grid. 4/5 on the grid all had season best qualifying results

Edit - sorry the entire top 4 had their seasons best qualifying result in Spa. Button, KK, Kimi, Perez

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Last edited by lamo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:57 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
How do you know what "McLaren" told "Lewis"? Lewis WAS McLaren. He sits in the meetings and should have eyes on the data used to form an opinion such as "it won't be that much different". Any time you are looking at a package choice like that you know there will be a cost to one part of performance and a benefit elsewhere. You choose if its worth it. It doesn't always work out the way you'd hoped.

They did not have much running at the FPs due the weather, so there was no data about the difference between those wings, wich one could have had the "eyes" on.
So McLaren chose to split strategys between both drivers, Lewis run the old wing and Button the new.
Paddy Lowe :
A
Quote:
nd it is difficult to predict which one is better - although one would expect a high downforce configuration to be better for tyre materials."
He added: "With the two different strategies we have got across the garage, Lewis is in a camp with at least Kimi [Raikkonen], and Jenson is fairly extreme in the other direction.
"We will see how that pans out because it will be different; it will allow different strategy choices."

Quote:
Although McLaren concedes that it was a mistake to move away from the new low-downforce specification that Button used to such good effect, the team has revealed that everyone believed beforehand it was the right move.

....
Speaking about the matter himself, Hamilton said: "In P3, I had some instability with the new wing that we tried. At the time, we had a relatively big gap between ourselves and the Red Bulls and the Ferrari, so we felt on our side of the garage that we should try something to fix it.

"For us, it was to potentially go to the wing that we used in the last race. I was told... we believed that the gap between those two wings wasn't so big but we proved ourselves wrong. It was obviously the wrong way to go but we made a decision as a team."

Lowe says that the decision to opt for a different downforce configuration was not a wild gamble – and that other drivers like Kimi Raikkonen made a similar choice.

"It is a perfectly valid choice around here," he said. "It is not as though it is some sort of outlandish gamble. It is one we had seriously considered before we came here as a perfectly valid configuration.


( source Autosport)

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Last edited by Haribo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:04 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
lamo wrote:
H-Holloway wrote:
Quote:
But he hadn't because they got it wrong with the difference between both wings.


So Button got fourth tenths on the straight from his low down force rear wing. But with this low down force rear wing he could also go faster in the high down force part of the circuit, and it was all down to said wing and nothing to do with Button just having to bit-between his teeth or Hamilton having a bad session.

McLaren should use their magical highy-highy-lowy-lowy rear wing more often if it works in both sectors!

Lewis Hamilton vs. The Laws of Physics.


Mclaren have split the setup of their cars twice in the last three years and both times Jenson thrashed Lewis. I am not calling conspiracy, but Jenson "having the bit between his teeth" has never really happened in qualifying when they have been running the same specification car. The other example being Monza 2010.

Or perhaps Jenson is just better at setting his car up sometimes. Happens in every team.

Hamilton is not 8/10 a lap slower than JB , not every lap in all 3 qualy sessions, if there was no significant performance difference between the cars.
A mistake can happen at a qualy lap, but not at each lap, at each Q session.

I don't think Hamilton forgot how to drive at Spa in qualy suddenly
Q3 results:
2011 . Hamilton 2nd, Button 13th
2010. Hamilton 2nd, Button 5th
2008. Hamilton12th, Button 14th


Hamilton used to be faster in Spa at qualy the last couple of years,even 2009, to be suddenly about 1sec slower there than Button is not usual, this was not down to driving mistakes, wich hardly happen every quali lap. Of course Button is able to beat Hamilton at qualy sometimes but not by such a big margin without a signifant car difference. IMo this was the end of the relationship between Hamilton & McLaren, something went terribly wrong there.
Interestingly Hamiltons race engineer Latham was replaced after Spa without an explanation , and never came back as raceengineer since than.

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Last edited by Haribo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:06 pm 
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H-Holloway wrote:
lamo wrote:
H-Holloway wrote:
Quote:
But he hadn't because they got it wrong with the difference between both wings.


So Button got fourth tenths on the straight from his low down force rear wing. But with this low down force rear wing he could also go faster in the high down force part of the circuit, and it was all down to said wing and nothing to do with Button just having to bit-between his teeth or Hamilton having a bad session.

McLaren should use their magical highy-highy-lowy-lowy rear wing more often if it works in both sectors!

Lewis Hamilton vs. The Laws of Physics.


Mclaren have split the setup of their cars twice in the last three years and both times Jenson thrashed Lewis. I am not calling conspiracy, but Jenson "having the bit between his teeth" has never really happened in qualifying when they have been running the same specification car. The other example being Monza 2010.


This is true. But the point I am arguing is that Haribo seems to be insisting that Button's advantage was only down to the different rear wings.

While Jenson gained time on the straights he should have lost time to Hamilton in the middle part of the circuit due to Hamilton's higher downforce set up, but he didn't and was punch for punch even between their times in that part of the lap.

So what that suggests to me is that either Button just put in a stonking set of corners or Hamilton made an error/was slightly sloppy and that Jenson's huge advantage during the session was not just down to differing rear wings like Haribo keeps asserting.


I think it is more a product of nobody having their car setup properly for that race exception of Jenson who done a good job to dial the car in with limited laps.

He was 1.2 seconds ahead of Vettel, 0.8 ahead of Alonso, 0.8 ahead of Lewis. These are all drivers who 8/10 out qualify him.

On a normal weekend at Spa the cars will do 50 laps on Friday, go over the data, make changes. Run the car on saturday doing 20 laps and perfecting the setup. That weekend, they had 20 laps on saturday morning to get a race and qualifying setup. Some of those other setups (like Vettels) may have worked a lot better in the race, but all the top runners got elimated.

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Last edited by lamo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:06 pm 
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Haribo, every driver is capable if having a bad day. Even Hamilton. Accept that and grow up a bit, it's funny how you can make excuses for Hamilton but god forbid anyone uses an excuse for Button. Hypocritical at it's best.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:07 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
.


Or perhaps the cars only appeared equal due to the pace difference between Massa and Hamilton? Felipes performances before and since suggest that he may well of had a car advantage. Or maybe he was just better in 2008 than he ever was before or since. I know which sounds most likely to me.[/quote]
Tbh I think Massa just had a fantastic season and Raikkonen a terrible one. But if Alonso had been in either the 08 McLaren or the 08 Ferrari I personally reckon the title would have been over before Brazil.[/quote]

Agreed as long as it wasn't the 2007 version of Alonso! I still think the Ferrari was the quicker car though ;)[/quote]
Thing is if the Ferrari was marginally quicker, but Hamilton is a way better driver than Massa then why was it still so tight? Hamilton didn't have a great year in 2008, he was just very lucky Alonso was in a poorish car and Raikkonen had a terrible year. The 07 spec Hamilton would have walked 08.[/quote]

Oh I agree Hamilton 08 was in my opinion his second worst year although it did include some of his best races E.g Silverstone and Hockenheim. Massa had his best year and that was partly why it was so close. He still made plenty of errors though. They were at the start of the season so nobody remembers ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:12 pm 
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Lewis made what 2 errors in 2008? Running into Alonso in Malaysia and Raikkonen in the pitlane in Canada.

Unless my memory deserts me maybe he had more errors?

The car was clearly inferior. He could only challenge the Ferrari in the wet, with the exception of Australia, Germany, Canada and China. Monaco he won in the wet, Silverstone he won in the wet. Spa he was going to lose until it started raining and then he took the lead.

1st - Lewis
7th - Heikki

Both Ferraris, Both BMWs, Lewis and Alonso finished ahead of Heikki. Heikki had good reliability too, he just finished in low positions.

You have to go back to 1985 to find a WDCs team mate that did the entire season finishing that low and that was due to Laudas terrible reliability.

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Last edited by lamo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:16 pm 
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You don't bring a wing to the circuit without having some data on how it should work. You don't BUILD the wing without having some data on how it should work.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:20 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
You don't bring a wing to the circuit without having some data on how it should work. You don't BUILD the wing without having some data on how it should work.


Indeed, Paddy Lowe said himself they had a good idea of how both wings would work... and they were wrong.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Why are you guys so hung up on errors? There is more to winning than not making mistakes, and they all make them anyway. You can drive flawlessly in the very best car and still not win. Sometimes the biggest mistake of all is just not pushing yourself, pushing the team. You can't see that. Its not a tangible thing. You can't point to it and say look, he turned in him there. Formula 1 and motorsport in general just aren't as black and white as so many try to make it out to be. Right now, driving well and minimizing mistakes is not enough to win titles.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:23 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Haribo, every driver is capable if having a bad day. Even Hamilton. Accept that and grow up a bit, it's funny how you can make excuses for Hamilton but god forbid anyone uses an excuse for Button. Hypocritical at it's best.

Hamilton is not 8/10 a lap slower than JB , not every lap in all 3 qualy sessions, if there was no significant performance difference between the cars.
A mistake can happen at a qualy lap, but not at each lap, at each Q session.

I don't think Hamilton forgot how to drive at Spa in qualy suddenly
Q3 results:
2011 . Hamilton 2nd, Button 13th
2010. Hamilton 2nd, Button 5th
2009. Hamilton12th, Button 14th


Hamilton used to be faster in Spa at qualy the last couple of years,even 2009, to be suddenly about 1sec slower there than Button is not usual, this was not down to driving mistakes, wich hardly happen every quali lap. Of course Button is able to beat Hamilton at qualy sometimes but not by such a big margin without a signifant car difference. IMo this was the end of the relationship between Hamilton & McLaren, something went terribly wrong there.
Interestingly Hamiltons race engineer Latham was replaced after Spa without an explanation , and never came back as raceengineer since than.

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Last edited by Haribo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:28 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Why are you guys so hung up on errors? There is more to winning than not making mistakes, and they all make them anyway. You can drive flawlessly in the very best car and still not win. Sometimes the biggest mistake of all is just not pushing yourself, pushing the team. You can't see that. Its not a tangible thing. You can't point to it and say look, he turned in him there. Formula 1 and motorsport in general just aren't as black and white as so many try to make it out to be. Right now, driving well and minimizing mistakes is not enough to win titles.


Only if you have a lack of talent/speed or a team mate faster than you.

Regarding 2008, because speed clearly was not an issue. So if somebody says he had a bad year you have to base that on something? Errors?

Heikki came 7th in the WDC and did not challenge for a single race win, he did win a race by default but he never challenged for one. Heikki had 3 podiums in 17 races. Yet it was the best car? Equal best car?

Ferrari drivers should have walked the title and as a out and out Kimi fan at the time it was a painful season to watch.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:49 pm 
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Image

Sector 1:
Jenson; 1st
Lewis; 17th +0.450

Sector 2:
Jenson; 5th
Lewis; 3rd -0.050

Sector 3:
Jenson; 1st
Lewis; 15th + 0.400

Lewis' managed to qualify 8th despite being 15th and 17th quickest in two sectors. So relative to most of the field he was very quick in the middle sector. Jenson however was still very strong in the middle.

Alonso appeared to have Jensons setup, very strong in S1 and S3 (just 0.1 behind Jenson in each) but a massive 0.6 off of Jenson in S2.

So Jenson got a perfect compromise in setup and of course was on the top of his game.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:55 pm 
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Vettelmessi wrote:
button already has
vettel obviously
alonso would with equal treatment
kimi easily
hulk?
any others?

Oh my.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:10 am 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Thank you Mr. Psychoanalyst.


I understand your attempt at sarcasm, but fortunately for me, I do have the resources and tools to make such statements.

I've seen it countless times where people state that Hamilton is quicker than Button, and the greater majority of fans agree. Yet in one instance when it is proposed that at Spa in 2012 Button was the better man, the resistance by some individuals is almost infinite and dogged? Such is the power of unconditional support, usually reserved for mothers and dogs.


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