planetf1.com

But he hadn't completed the overtake. If he had completed the overtake Hammy could have moved over and not touched Webber.

Webber had to make the corner Hammy was on the outside he hasn't a magic teleportation device on the car so when Hammy came into his space where was he supposed to go to avoid Hammy?

Oh and he didn't drive into the back of him. He hit the side of his wheel.

The wheel is not the rear of the car and the side of the wheel is not the rear of the wheel even.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

(Im having trouble filling the hours, its a snow day at work...which means there are no students to teach)

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Dude Spa 2011 was Clearly Lewis his fault Silverstone 2011 and India 2011 same story, lets not forget Monaco 2011 omg, But you probably dont remember the move he made in turn 1 on Schumi, that was utterly sublime, only Ham could pull a move like that. I dont know why you think i'm all pro hamilton because i will agree he has made a lot of mistakes...LAST YEAR and maybe China 2007 or running into Kimi in Canada in the pitlane. I will not deny or shy away from all those mistakes.

I respect your post. But in this matter i still believe Webber was at fault. The other accident with Massa in Singapore was Ham's fault.

Spa, both fault.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Webbers car has brakes he could & should have used them.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

MMMMM braking into the corner. They were RACING which usually means in the corner they are on the limit of the brakes any more brakes would have likely meant a lock up. Anyone with a drivers licence will tell you once you lock up you lose steering.

Anyway why should Webber brake when Hammy was the one with the responsibility of making a clean pass.

Why should Webber be the one to concede the corner when he was the one with the upper hand?

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

upperhand? watch the videos again.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Arguing these types of things with someone who has never been in a similar position is impossible. You did your best to educate, you can't do any more than provide info and explain. Job done.

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Kudos to haribo for living up to his signature.

LOL i never noticed that. Explains so much. Maybe in his case its "All da time you have to imagine the space".

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Yes the upper hand.

Webber had effectively won the corner. Lewis hadn't completed the overtake. He couldn't turn in without touching the man he was trying to overtake and he wouldn't have made the corner without going wide. If he hadn't have turned in when he did he would have likely went wide and over the kerbs most likely losing the place. If he kept the place it would have been an illegal overtake. Completed off track.

Basically the cards were well in truly in Webbers favour for that one.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Wrong.

The exit of that croner has a wide run off area. and even then Webber's lack of skill caused contact. if it where Kimi or Alonso for that matter there would be none.

Yes because Alonso and Kimi have never collided with anyone.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

It has a wide run off area which is off track therefore if he completed the pass it was completed off track.
Here's the Kerbs http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 9WO4#t=20s

Webber lack of skill??

He wasn't the one that turned in on another car

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Hindsight.

At crunch time, Alonso had it lost. Sure he beat MS in Brazil, but MS had a mechanical failure in qualifying and a puncture that put him a lap down in the race.

Alonso went to Brazil needing an 8th place (if Schumacher won the race) to win the title, least pressure you could ever have. The only way MS could win the title was Alonso out of the points and MS winning the race.

Not knocking Alonso, but that is how the situation was. Alonso went in Japan with the championship lead and could do nothing about MS until his engine blew. Just the way it played out, his car was much slower by then.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

Changes everything, there is no way Michael would have got that puncture if the title was winnable. He was going full leather because it was his last race. The Ferrari that day was a second a lap quicker than the Renault.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

The Ferrari was also fragile. Of Schumacher had a good chance of the title he'd still have been going hell for leather. Who knows if the engine problem in Quali would have been in the race. Who knows if he'd have hit someone else instead of Fisi, who knows if Alonso would have won the race and Schumacher been further down the order. No one will ever know.

So it changes nothing. Alonso is still a double champ and Schumacher 7x WDC.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

You can not debate an incident from a photograph, they can be very misleading.

- Webber does not take the normal racing line, he is much tighter than that.

- Lewis takes the normal line (although a little wider to leave some room for webber). You can tell Lewis takes normal line, look at the cars behind him. 30 seconds on the video

From 30 seconds on, if you are Mark Webber, what is the best thing that can happen. Its a guaranteed incident if you don't get on the brakes. Lewis also does not leave enough room but 9/10 the driver on the inside of this exact corner yields in this situation as it only ends one way. The same as it only ends one way if you try to hold the inside at casino square. We have seen this exact overtaking move 20 times over the years and the guy on the inside has to get out of it and has done.

- Webber tries to get out of it too late, goes very tight and the bounces off the kerb into Lewis.

Racing incident, unfortunate for Lewis but you don't win championship with the 3rd best car (at that point of the season) without taking risks. Webber led the championship at that point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxynNbw9WO4

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

I think Johnston and Haribo need their own thread. We can call it "Lewis and Felipe 2011".

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Or Maldonado and Hamilton through the ages...

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

Exactly my point and why - "Had Schumacher finished 1st in Japan with Alonso 2nd, Alonso still would have won the title by a point." is a useless fact.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

Out of interest, would you put you car on the inside of another car heading into a 90/100 degree corner if your front wheel lined up with their real wheel and it was very tight.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

Who need the pictures the videos are up.

Webber doesn't take the normal line because Lewis is trying to squeeze him.

Since when was the normal line a cars width from the Kerb? At the apex Lewis was off line.

If you are Mark Webber you don't concede a corner when you have the inside line. It's up to the overtakerto get past, not up to him to hang out a red carpet and let him by.

The guy on the inside doesn't have to get out of it. It's up to the overtaker to execute a clean manoeuvre. Turning in on the other car is not a clean manoeuvre.

Webber goes tight because he's getting the squeeze from Lewis.

The video at around 30 secs only shows the cars exiting. Lewis is on that line holding Webber to the inside. However because Webber is on the inside he cannot take the normal line but he tries too. He was aiming for the kerb that Webber was occupying.

Like I think I said before. It's the scenario as Seb and Vet in Germany. Seb tried to hold JB tight and JB held his station. So Seb instead of risking an accident went wide instead of shutting the door and touching.

I love the way though people think RACERS should just roll over and Beg for Lewis. Whatever happened to racing and actually making a pass stick?

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

He made the corner even with the contact, Lewis was easily making the corner. That is obvious.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

If he was making the corner why did he turn into Webber.

The video YOU posted shows that the exit is on the kerbs. Lewis if he hadn't have turned in was off the Apex by a cars width. that means that at the apex he was a cars width off line. That means a cars width at least off line at exit.

If the other cars in YOUR video are on theKerbs and he was a cars width off line. what does that tell you?

And he didn't make the corner with contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 9WO4#t=34s

He is off the track.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

No one expects Mark to roll over, but putting your car very tight to the inside going into a 90 degree corner is not wise especially when you are leading the championship.

That incident is just as likely to end with Webber losing his front wing end plate and Hamilton continuing. The title was very very tight at that point and it was a bit risky from Webber.

He cost himself the title in the very next race with another silly move and this time paid the price.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

So you are saying if you miss an apex by a metre you are a metre wide at the exit

Im sure Lewis or anybody who has stepped foot in a car has the talent to pick the throttle on exit up 0.050 later to rectify that.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

When Mark commits to that line, he is about 2/3 up on Lewis' car. That's fair game to have a go. By the time Lewis had most of his car ahead, there was nothing Mark could do. You can even see the hips wiggle when he realizes Lewis hasn't noticed he's still there and adds whats left of his braking, snuggling up close to give Lewis as much room as he can. He couldn't just add more lock on the apex and keep further left. Lewis on the other hand could have stayed just a bit wider knowing that Mark would be traction limited on that tight line, allowing him to power away on the exit and keeping the position. I believe if Lewis had realized where Mark was, that's what he could have done. I think he just didn't know where Mark was.

To answer your question - whether I would do the same as Mark depends on who I am racing. If its somebody I know is smart and can drive, I would absolutely do the same. Forcing somebody into a potential 50/50 is like playing chicken. You're just daring the other driver. Most of the sensible ones know what you're doing, and choose to live to fight again, often knowing your gamble is risky enough that it might not cost them a position anyway.

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This!

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

It wasn't risky from Webber though. He was being overtaken and had a right to defend his position. As you say, he's not supposed to roll over. It was a racing incident yes, but if one could apportion blame in that incident. More of it will be at Hamilton's door. He can't turn into the corner like that and expect Webber to vanish.

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Forza Fernando !

He was in the position because Lewis put him there.

It wasn't Marks responsibility to make sure Lewis made a clean overtake. The person that put them in that position was the guy that paid the price.

He made the attempt and he failed to execute the pass before he turned in. If anyone else was to turn in before executing the overtake they would get slated on here.

If drivers started conceding places everytime someone might close the door in a failed overtake racing would be a bit pish.

Here is Lewis putting himself in the same position Webber was in. Notice the Renault knew when not to turn in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... BujU#t=95s

and another

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... ujU#t=197s

Notice how the guy on the outside backs out .

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

This.

He did the exact same thing to Kobayashi a year later in Spa. Once making that mistake is fair enough, twice makes him look a big silly and that he doesn't learn. We all know he's a better driver than that.

I would even argue he did a similar thing in Valencia 2012 with Maldonado but I still have doubts about which pedal Maldonado had his foot on as he hit Lewis so Hamilton gets the benefit of the doubt.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

So you are saying to make the corner Lewis would have had to back out of the throttle.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

At Spa BOTH drivers made a mistake . Kobayashi turned in Lewis direction when Lewis passed him, & Lewis thought he was already past. Kobayashi had as much fault as Hamilton.

Valencia was completely different!
Maldonado was the overtaker there
Maldonado made a mistake and left the track , as he changed back to the track he lost the control of the car & he drove straight into Hamilton
Maldonado had also cut the corner with his trip off the track, he would have had to let Lewis past anyhow. To try to put blame on Hamilton for Valencia 2012 is absolutely ridiculous!

You should try to watch the races

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

For the non drivers in the lot: you have to realize that there is a point of no return when choosing a line, and its often a LOT earlier than you think it is. And the brakes are NOT always an option. In this case, slamming on the brakes would have ended in Lewis getting plowed like snow into the wall, in the t-bone position. Just because there is a point in the maneuver where Lewis is rear wheel to front with Mark doesn't mean that is when the decision is made. That is why I say its useless arguing these things with people who don't have the experience. Until you sit in a car and do the laps you can't always easily identify the committal, the options, or the consequences. I obviously can't fault anyone for not having that experience, but I will say you should be less steadfast in your interpretation of an incident if you don't for sure know what you are talking about.

If I'm watching something like X Factor and I think an artist would have done a better job with a different song, I might say so. But if the judges say the song was okay and something else was at fault for a poor performance, I'm not gonna argue. They know, I don't. Even if it wasn't the judges and just a friend watching with me, I'd just say "in my opinion" or "I think" and not try to argue that I am definitely right, because I just don't know. Its not my field.

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Maybe, who knows. But saying he is a metre wide at entry so much run wide on exit is a bit

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

Hamilton was not the one who outbraked himself

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

am sure neither Webber nor Hamilton remembers the incident as vividly as some of you....
anyway have we figured out how many drivers and their dogs can beat Hamilton yet?

Except for both of those are into hairpins which is a whole different ball game.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk