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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Jeez some Hamilton fans really do get tetchy when anyone mentions his sometimes wayward mentality.

One doesn't have to be a psychoanalyst to see that Hamilton goes off the boil sometimes when things don't go his way. He's not the only driver who does it but god forbid anyone tries to mention it. I guess if it was Vettel or Alonso it'd be alright though...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:39 pm 
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I just hate it when people try and go all "deep" into how the driver feels in certain situations. I wouldn't do it for Vettel or whovever since I'm not qualified to talk about how a driver reacts emotionally to issues, I've never met them so making a judgement like that is unfair.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Driver mentality is a big part of their make up as a driver though. It can make or break a season if they can keep their head together or lose it completely. So I think we can all talk about their mental strength tbh. That's part of sport, psychological games will always be.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:44 pm 
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But I think there's a difference between mental strength and "emotional stability" though... For me, talking about "emotional stability" implies that he has issues out side of racing.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:45 pm 
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The head game is almost more important than the driving right now, it shouldn't be ignored, and there are plenty of clues from their behavior and words as to what they are thinking and how they are coping. You don't need a PhD to reasonably sort it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
But I think there's a difference between mental strength and "emotional stability" though... For me, talking about "emotional stability" implies that he has issues out side of racing.

One affects the other though and you can be an emotionally unstable driver on track and fine off it. Maldonado seems like a good guy off track for example but often loses his head on it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:05 pm 
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People may have a point about Lewis.

In Abi-Dhabi, he did have a care in the world and was more the better for it. When he is depressed or something is effecting him it effects his performance. Its quite simple really with him.

Lewis fans should not get uppity about it, because when on form like he was in Abi Dhabi, no one on the grid can touch him unless things go go wrong that are out of his hands.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:33 pm 
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Lewis Hamilton in the 2012 form?

NONE of the current F1 drivers

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:39 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Driver mentality is a big part of their make up as a driver though. It can make or break a season if they can keep their head together or lose it completely. So I think we can all talk about their mental strength tbh. That's part of sport, psychological games will always be.

Everyone of the F1 drivers has enough mental strenght, or emotional stabillity , they would not be there if they wouldn't have it. They would not have come through the lower series if they were mentally or emotionally weak.
To be a top 3 driver, like Hamilton is, he is one of the thoughest of them, if not, he would not be there at the top of the top.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:45 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Driver mentality is a big part of their make up as a driver though. It can make or break a season if they can keep their head together or lose it completely. So I think we can all talk about their mental strength tbh. That's part of sport, psychological games will always be.

Everyone of the F1 drivers has enough mental strenght, or emotional stabillity , they would not be there if they wouldn't have it. They would not have come through the lower series if they were mentally or emotionally weak.
To be a top 3 driver, like Hamilton is, he is one of the thoughest of them, if not, he would not be there at the top of the top.

Of course he's not mentally weak, but by F1 standards he may be. Just as Karthikeyan is truly an immensely fast driver, but by F1 standards he's slow.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:51 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Driver mentality is a big part of their make up as a driver though. It can make or break a season if they can keep their head together or lose it completely. So I think we can all talk about their mental strength tbh. That's part of sport, psychological games will always be.

Everyone of the F1 drivers has enough mental strenght, or emotional stabillity , they would not be there if they wouldn't have it. They would not have come through the lower series if they were mentally or emotionally weak.
To be a top 3 driver, like Hamilton is, he is one of the thoughest of them, if not, he would not be there at the top of the top.

If you have inherent speed, and a car that is there or thereabouts for your entire career, you can definitely be in F1 and at the top without having the head game sorted. The difference is, you won't have a bunch of titles, or successive ones.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:57 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Driver mentality is a big part of their make up as a driver though. It can make or break a season if they can keep their head together or lose it completely. So I think we can all talk about their mental strength tbh. That's part of sport, psychological games will always be.

Everyone of the F1 drivers has enough mental strenght, or emotional stabillity , they would not be there if they wouldn't have it. They would not have come through the lower series if they were mentally or emotionally weak.
To be a top 3 driver, like Hamilton is, he is one of the thoughest of them, if not, he would not be there at the top of the top.

If you have inherent speed, and a car that is there or thereabouts for your entire career, you can definitely be in F1 and at the top without having the head game sorted. The difference is, you won't have a bunch of titles, or successive ones.

NO.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:01 pm 
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That's a well thought-out counterpoint you've made there.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:02 pm 
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Well when you put it like that...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:04 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Driver mentality is a big part of their make up as a driver though. It can make or break a season if they can keep their head together or lose it completely. So I think we can all talk about their mental strength tbh. That's part of sport, psychological games will always be.

Everyone of the F1 drivers has enough mental strenght, or emotional stabillity , they would not be there if they wouldn't have it. They would not have come through the lower series if they were mentally or emotionally weak.
To be a top 3 driver, like Hamilton is, he is one of the thoughest of them, if not, he would not be there at the top of the top.

If you have inherent speed, and a car that is there or thereabouts for your entire career, you can definitely be in F1 and at the top without having the head game sorted. The difference is, you won't have a bunch of titles, or successive ones.

NO.

Err yes. There's many a reason why Alonso and Vettel have multiple titles and Hamilton does not. One is the fact Hamilton did choke in 2010, he lost his head when it mattered in Singapore and Monza and it probably cost him the WDC. One could argue he did it in China 2007 as well but that has been discussed at length in another thread. Point is Hamilton is a driver who tends to perform bett when he's happy both in the garage and at home and less so when he's going through relationship troubles both in and out of the garage. He's sensitive. It can have a bad effect on a championship challenge.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:12 pm 
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I agree with Laura.

But I think he is growing up a bit now, people forget how young he was when he came to F1. I know he had that strop in SPA, but he was more than reasonable when his car failed him in Abi Dhabi and he still went back to the garage to shake everyone's hand.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:12 pm 
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Vettel and Button could do it, but Alonso has the best chance at it. Lewis needed a rookie-record shattering streak of podiums to beat Alonso in 2007. He'd have to do that every year to beat him IMO, and I'm not really convinced he could.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:17 pm 
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metamorphomisk wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
Alonso - I think that now, mentally, he knows what to expect from Hamilton. He won't break down mentally like he did in 2007. Because of that, I think he's more likely to beat Hamilton this time

Vettel - I think he has a chance. Vettel seems to really....annoy Hamilton. Hamilton sometimes, to me, seems almost obsessed with beating Vettel. Like at one race he radio'd back to the team saying something along the lines of "what is Vettel doing". I think Vettel winning his title in 2010, and seemingly about to run away with it in 2011 is a factor in what caused Hamilton's appalling 2011 season. He seemed to me to be almos unable to cope with the possibility of Vettel having more titles than him. I don't think it bothers him as much to see Alonso win, as he's raced him and he's almost proved to himself that he can take on Alonso and beat him. He doesn't have that assurance with Vettel. I think because of that, if they were paired up together, Hamilton is more likely to overdrive, in order to beat Vettel and consequently make mistakes.

Or alternatively, I could be suffering from F1 withdrawal systems and I've over-dramatized this Vettel-Hamilton Relationship.

Oh and I don't think any of the others stand a realistic chance.


I agree


I think every driver should be somewhat obsessed with beating Vettel or any other current WDC for that matter, and I think they all are. And we as fans should not expect anything else from them.
If you don't struggle and strive to be no.1 then you won't get there either. In 2011 I believe Hamilton actually did overdrive because he wanted to be up there but the RB7 was out of grasp. And he had problems in his personal life aswell that distracted him. In 2012 he had learnt his lesson and he showed what a great driver he is, even when things went wrong he kept his head cool. Now I didn't get to see all the races because of my job but I can't remember Hamilton putting a wheel wrong the whole season. And Vettel has a tendency to get stressed when under presure just as Hamilton in 2011 so it might as well be Vettel who would overdrive if the two were teammates. Maybe we will get the chance to see that one day.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:21 pm 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
Vettel and Button could do it, but Alonso has the best chance at it. Lewis needed a rookie-record shattering streak of podiums to beat Alonso in 2007. He'd have to do that every year to beat him IMO, and I'm not really convinced he could.

Agreed. Hamilton's problem is he was so consistent in 2007 that it was a level he was always going to struggle to match year in year out. The level of expectation on him after 2007 was rightfully high, I mean if he could do that as a rookie what could he do with experience were the questions being asked. But he never met it again. His star was waning until this year when his speed saved him from a likely beating from Button again, yes mostly down to reliability but he still wasn't that consistent compared with 2007. As each year passes I find it more unlikely Lewis will match 2007 ever again, he might win another title but I don't think he'll do it dominantly unless his car is miles ahead of the rest.

If anything Hamilton taught Alonso a lesson in 2007 about consistency and Alonso learned it big time. He was consistent in 2010 and that lead to him standing a chance of winning the title in the final race and that repeated again in 2012. Hamilton only really had an outside chance in 2010 and he should have really been the favourite but for his inconsistency towards the end of the season.

Prove me wrong in 2013 Lewis. Get podium after podium again.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:38 pm 
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This is obviously just a response to the "Who would beat Vettel as his teammate" thread, but ok. Concerning Lewis. I'll do some drivers.

Sebastian Vettel: This might be close. Both are quick, but both are slightly fragile mentally at times. If we were able to exclude reliability failures for both drivers, then I think I'd go for Hamilton.

Fernando Alonso: I'd expect Hamilton to have the qualifying edge, but I think Alonso has a cooler head, and I think he'd come out on top in a season long battle. 2007, you all SCREAM!? Hamilton beat Alonso. Yes. This is now 6 years later. And guess what? Raikkonen beat them BOTH.

Kimi Raikkonen: Hamilton would beat Kimi in qualy I believe, unless Kimi could hook things up just right, then he could come close. Kimi though is very consistent and can drive around problems just like Lewis and Fernando, so this could go either way.

This for me is undoubtedly F1's BIG FOUR. I'm about to now do something which just always ends up in a fight: Rank them

I'll put Alonso on top, with Hamilton and Raikkonen just behind, yet equal to each other, and to Alonso on some days, with Vettel a tiny step behind them. Based on Vettel's age I do think he'll become much better, though he is already top class.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:40 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Driver mentality is a big part of their make up as a driver though. It can make or break a season if they can keep their head together or lose it completely. So I think we can all talk about their mental strength tbh. That's part of sport, psychological games will always be.

Everyone of the F1 drivers has enough mental strenght, or emotional stabillity , they would not be there if they wouldn't have it. They would not have come through the lower series if they were mentally or emotionally weak.
To be a top 3 driver, like Hamilton is, he is one of the thoughest of them, if not, he would not be there at the top of the top.

If you have inherent speed, and a car that is there or thereabouts for your entire career, you can definitely be in F1 and at the top without having the head game sorted. The difference is, you won't have a bunch of titles, or successive ones.

NO.

Err yes. There's many a reason why Alonso and Vettel have multiple titles and Hamilton does not. One is the fact Hamilton did choke in 2010, he lost his head when it mattered in Singapore and Monza and it probably cost him the WDC. One could argue he did it in China 2007 as well but that has been discussed at length in another thread. Point is Hamilton is a driver who tends to perform bett when he's happy both in the garage and at home and less so when he's going through relationship troubles both in and out of the garage. He's sensitive. It can have a bad effect on a championship challenge.

BS.
Lets look at 2010 :
Singapore was a racing incident with more Webbers fault, who made a driving error & crashed into Hamilton. Nothing to do with Lost his head!
Monza was a error from Lewis, but absolutely nothing where he " lost his had.
This have been Hamiltons only mistakes
Vettel & Alonso both mde more, but nobody says Alonso lost his head or was mentally weak, when he lost out 2010
Jump start at Bahrain(?) wich brought Alonso a penalty and cost him points
What about Spa Alonso binned his car without any others influence
Spa 2010 Vettel Crashed into button
Turkey 2010 Vettel chrashed himself & Webber out of the lead of the race
Canada 2010, Vettel made quite a lot little mistakes in the race, Alonso lost the lead to Hamilton due an driving error

IF you say it was Hamilton Faults he was not WDC what about Alonso?
What about the 2 non fault DNFs Hamilton had 2010 ( Barcelona last lap, Hungary) where he lost a 2nd and 3rd or 4th position (32 p), wich you can say cost him the title?
What about 2 faulty gearboxes at Japan GP wich cost Hamilton a 3rd place ( finished 6th)

Fact is Hamilton drove a very good season 2010. Better than Vettel, Alonso , Webber & Button

2011 Vettels car was so superior, no other driver would have won.

And why did Hamilton not win the titlle 2012, can you answer this Laura?
Hamilton would have been WDC 2012, as far as driver performance was the criteria.
Take off you anti Hamilton glasses , 2012 had nothing to do with Hamiltons "head game" he did not win the WDC.

Do you think someone who is not mentally very though , would have beaten 2 WDCs in the same car, whitstand all the critics 2011 and come back with a stellar performance 2012?

About 2007, if one driver has lost the mental game 2007 it was not Hamilton at McLaren!

Yes, Hamilton is sensitive, and emotional, but he is not mental- or emotionally weak. Hamilton stood in the spot light since day 1 in F1. He has massive pressure to win everything in the lower series not to lose McLarens support, he has to deal with a lot more critic and expectations and observation than all other drivers. Do you think he would still be there if he was not really tough?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:31 pm 
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Alonso choked in 2010, and again in 2012. There, somebody said it. Stop using "nobody says" as an excuse :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:39 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
Vettel and Button could do it, but Alonso has the best chance at it. Lewis needed a rookie-record shattering streak of podiums to beat Alonso in 2007. He'd have to do that every year to beat him IMO, and I'm not really convinced he could.

Agreed. Hamilton's problem is he was so consistent in 2007 that it was a level he was always going to struggle to match year in year out. The level of expectation on him after 2007 was rightfully high, I mean if he could do that as a rookie what could he do with experience were the questions being asked. But he never met it again. His star was waning until this year when his speed saved him from a likely beating from Button again, yes mostly down to reliability but he still wasn't that consistent compared with 2007. As each year passes I find it more unlikely Lewis will match 2007 ever again, he might win another title but I don't think he'll do it dominantly unless his car is miles ahead of the rest.

If anything Hamilton taught Alonso a lesson in 2007 about consistency and Alonso learned it big time. He was consistent in 2010 and that lead to him standing a chance of winning the title in the final race and that repeated again in 2012. Hamilton only really had an outside chance in 2010 and he should have really been the favourite but for his inconsistency towards the end of the season.

Prove me wrong in 2013 Lewis. Get podium after podium again.

Nonsense again, girl.
It was not pure speed wich made him beat Button very clearly this season, it was better tyre management, better set up work, better working with the engineers, and better speed!

About 2010: nonsense, about the end of the season inconsistency!
Monza was after the summer break , not at the end of the season. 2010 Hamilton was A LOT more consistant than bOTH vettel and ALONSO, but he would have needed a perfect season with no tecnical failures and no mistakes to stand a chance against the RBR & Ferrari, who have been the better cars the 2nd half of the season.


If anything Hamilton has proved he does not need a car miles ahead of the rest ( remember 2008, where the McL was not the best car), if he will win a title again, he needs a less inconsistant team!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:41 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Alonso choked in 2010, and again in 2012. There, somebody said it. Stop using "nobody says" as an excuse :lol:

Don't forget 2007, the mother of "Chokes"

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:46 pm 
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I explained to you somewhere else why Webber wasn't at fault. Mainly as Lewis kept him tight which requires a wider exit except Lewis didn't give him room to exit the corner. No driver can simply make his hug the wall to make a corner.

2008 not the best car???? That one is VERY debatable. Many people in the past have suggested the Macca was indeed better than the Ferrari that year.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:48 pm 
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If you can't understand that a driver plays a significant role in the consistency of his team, you aren't paying enough attention to the sport.

There are drivers who use the off season to make unofficial visits to team suppliers to see what they do and thank them for their work, and there are drivers who use it to tweet about their haters. I know which one I'd work just that little bit harder to provide a good product for, but thats just meeeeee :ho hum:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:51 pm 
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Haribo, don't you dare try and patronise me.

I never said Lewis lost 2012 because of "head games". He lost it at Spa because of "head games" but not the title.

Hamilton is not a consistent driver and hasn't been since 2007. It cost him one title in 2010. What Alonso did the same season isn't relevant because it was Hamilton's two mistakes that cost him his chance. His inconsistency was also what cost him in 2011 against Button. 2012 was reliability but Hamilton still wasn't that consistent season wide.

Speed goes a long way to a title but it doesn't mean you'll win them. It just means Hamilton is better over a single lap than most. But you don't win points on Saturdays. That's what has cost Lewis dearly in some races, he tries to win the race in one lap or one overtaking move and it sometimes bites him in the arse badly. It's a fault of his, all drivers have faults and that is one of his. Simple as that.

Hamilton more critics than Alonso? Than Vettel? Than Button? I don't think so. They all get negative press, they all have fans who'll down them no matter what they do. For god sake Vettel has three titles and people on here still say he's rubbish, that without Red Bull he's nothing. Don't try and claim Hamilton is the only driver on the grid who gets critics. He's not.

You say I need to stop being "anti Hamilton", I say I call it how I see it. I don't wear rose tinted glasses like you Haribo when it comes to Hamilton. Perhaps you should take them off once in a while and see your boy ain't squeaky clean and he isn't faultless.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:52 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
I explained to you somewhere else why Webber wasn't at fault. Mainly as Lewis kept him tight which requires a wider exit except Lewis didn't give him room to exit the corner. No driver can simply make his hug the wall to make a corner.

2008 not the best car???? That one is VERY debatable. Many people in the past have suggested the Macca was indeed better than the Ferrari that year.

Had Webbers car no breaks? Hamilton was ahead, on the racing line and had the corner. Webber was beaten he should have backed off.

Interstingly Alonso said himself Ferrari was the car to have the 2nd half of the 2010 season

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Every driver has strengths and weaknesses and every era of F1 puts emphasis on different skill sets both through the regulations, the enforcement of them, the technology available, and the personalities on the grid. What is "fashionable" plays an ever increasing role in that too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Alonso choked in 2010, and again in 2012. There, somebody said it. Stop using "nobody says" as an excuse :lol:

Don't forget 2007, the mother of "Chokes"

The only driver who didn't choke in the final two GPs of 2007 was the WDC that year. Raikkonen. Both McLaren drivers choked at some point over those two races. Hamilton going into that China pit lane and not demanding new tyres sooner, Alonso just didn't seem to have any heart left to fight by Brazil and kinda gave up, Hamilton again went off under pressure at T4 in Brazil on the first lap losing 4/5 places.

As for the McLaren being slower than the Ferrari in 2008. Debatable. They were pretty much even stevens. Some races suited McLaren, some suited Ferrari and the rest where equal. But neither car was better than the other at the end of the year. Hamilton had to beat Massa in what was an equally fast car, he made a bit of a meal of it but came out on top. The only person Hamilton has ever beaten in a straight title fight at the wire is Massa. Alonso has beaten Schumacher, Vettel has beaten Alonso twice, Raikkonen both Hamilton and Alonso. To me that says a lot.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:04 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
I explained to you somewhere else why Webber wasn't at fault. Mainly as Lewis kept him tight which requires a wider exit except Lewis didn't give him room to exit the corner. No driver can simply make his hug the wall to make a corner.

2008 not the best car???? That one is VERY debatable. Many people in the past have suggested the Macca was indeed better than the Ferrari that year.

Had Webbers car no breaks? Hamilton was ahead, on the racing line and had the corner. Webber was beaten he should have backed off.

Interstingly Alonso said himself Ferrari was the car to have the 2nd half of the 2010 season



Webber had the inside line. Lewis didn't have the corner. If he had the corner he could have turned in without touching. Webber wasn't beaten because lewis hadn't completed the overtake got past and around the corner Webber made a perfectly fine defensive move to keep position by forcing Lewis wide. A move Lewis himself has put to great use although the guys he has done it on usually have the sense to go wide and not turn in ending their race.

Having the racing line means nothing and IIRC neither was on the true racing line anyway.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:09 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Driver mentality is a big part of their make up as a driver though. It can make or break a season if they can keep their head together or lose it completely. So I think we can all talk about their mental strength tbh. That's part of sport, psychological games will always be.

Everyone of the F1 drivers has enough mental strenght, or emotional stabillity , they would not be there if they wouldn't have it. They would not have come through the lower series if they were mentally or emotionally weak.
To be a top 3 driver, like Hamilton is, he is one of the thoughest of them, if not, he would not be there at the top of the top.

If you have inherent speed, and a car that is there or thereabouts for your entire career, you can definitely be in F1 and at the top without having the head game sorted. The difference is, you won't have a bunch of titles, or successive ones.

NO.

Err yes. There's many a reason why Alonso and Vettel have multiple titles and Hamilton does not. One is the fact Hamilton did choke in 2010, he lost his head when it mattered in Singapore and Monza and it probably cost him the WDC. One could argue he did it in China 2007 as well but that has been discussed at length in another thread. Point is Hamilton is a driver who tends to perform bett when he's happy both in the garage and at home and less so when he's going through relationship troubles both in and out of the garage. He's sensitive. It can have a bad effect on a championship challenge.



Thing is both Vettel and Alonso made errors that season as well Belgium remember, which was the race just before Monza. So if we attribute Hamiltons mistake in Monza as choking what do we make of Vettel and Alonso? I think Hamilton does get in his own way and that stops him putting a string of results together like Vettel or Alonso can. I don't think its really pressure related though. He made a huge amount of errors in 2011 when he was not even in the championship race.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:13 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Alonso choked in 2010, and again in 2012. There, somebody said it. Stop using "nobody says" as an excuse :lol:

Don't forget 2007, the mother of "Chokes"

The only driver who didn't choke in the final two GPs of 2007 was the WDC that year. Raikkonen. Both McLaren drivers choked at some point over those two races. Hamilton going into that China pit lane and not demanding new tyres sooner, Alonso just didn't seem to have any heart left to fight by Brazil and kinda gave up, Hamilton again went off under pressure at T4 in Brazil on the first lap losing 4/5 places.

As for the McLaren being slower than the Ferrari in 2008. Debatable. They were pretty much even stevens. Some races suited McLaren, some suited Ferrari and the rest where equal. But neither car was better than the other at the end of the year. Hamilton had to beat Massa in what was an equally fast car, he made a bit of a meal of it but came out on top. The only person Hamilton has ever beaten in a straight title fight at the wire is Massa. Alonso has beaten Schumacher, Vettel has beaten Alonso twice, Raikkonen both Hamilton and Alonso. To me that says a lot.


Or perhaps the cars only appeared equal due to the pace difference between Massa and Hamilton? Felipes performances before and since suggest that he may well of had a car advantage. Or maybe he was just better in 2008 than he ever was before or since. I know which sounds most likely to me.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:15 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Everyone of the F1 drivers has enough mental strenght, or emotional stabillity , they would not be there if they wouldn't have it. They would not have come through the lower series if they were mentally or emotionally weak.
To be a top 3 driver, like Hamilton is, he is one of the thoughest of them, if not, he would not be there at the top of the top.

If you have inherent speed, and a car that is there or thereabouts for your entire career, you can definitely be in F1 and at the top without having the head game sorted. The difference is, you won't have a bunch of titles, or successive ones.

NO.

Err yes. There's many a reason why Alonso and Vettel have multiple titles and Hamilton does not. One is the fact Hamilton did choke in 2010, he lost his head when it mattered in Singapore and Monza and it probably cost him the WDC. One could argue he did it in China 2007 as well but that has been discussed at length in another thread. Point is Hamilton is a driver who tends to perform bett when he's happy both in the garage and at home and less so when he's going through relationship troubles both in and out of the garage. He's sensitive. It can have a bad effect on a championship challenge.



Thing is both Vettel and Alonso made errors that season as well Belgium remember, which was the race just before Monza. So if we attribute Hamiltons mistake in Monza as choking what do we make of Vettel and Alonso? I think Hamilton does get in his own way and that stops him putting a string of results together like Vettel or Alonso can. I don't think its really pressure related though. He made a huge amount of errors in 2011 when he was not even in the championship race.

Oh I know they made errors too but crucially Vettel's were at the right time, if you can make errors at the right time! When it came to crunch time Vettel got the hammer down, had his engine not failed in Korea, not his own doing after all, he'd have won the last 4 races on the bounce. Alonso won two on the bounce prior to Vettel's potential run and when Vettel's engine failed who was the man there to pick up the win? Alonso. Not Hamilton. That's why he was an outside contender by Abu Dhabi. The other two were more consistent of the final part of the year, especially Vettel.

As for 2011, Hamilton's annum horriblils so far. Made far too many errors for someone of his calibre.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:17 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Haribo wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Alonso choked in 2010, and again in 2012. There, somebody said it. Stop using "nobody says" as an excuse :lol:

Don't forget 2007, the mother of "Chokes"

The only driver who didn't choke in the final two GPs of 2007 was the WDC that year. Raikkonen. Both McLaren drivers choked at some point over those two races. Hamilton going into that China pit lane and not demanding new tyres sooner, Alonso just didn't seem to have any heart left to fight by Brazil and kinda gave up, Hamilton again went off under pressure at T4 in Brazil on the first lap losing 4/5 places.

As for the McLaren being slower than the Ferrari in 2008. Debatable. They were pretty much even stevens. Some races suited McLaren, some suited Ferrari and the rest where equal. But neither car was better than the other at the end of the year. Hamilton had to beat Massa in what was an equally fast car, he made a bit of a meal of it but came out on top. The only person Hamilton has ever beaten in a straight title fight at the wire is Massa. Alonso has beaten Schumacher, Vettel has beaten Alonso twice, Raikkonen both Hamilton and Alonso. To me that says a lot.


Or perhaps the cars only appeared equal due to the pace difference between Massa and Hamilton? Felipes performances before and since suggest that he may well of had a car advantage. Or maybe he was just better in 2008 than he ever was before or since. I know which sounds most likely to me.

Tbh I think Massa just had a fantastic season and Raikkonen a terrible one. But if Alonso had been in either the 08 McLaren or the 08 Ferrari I personally reckon the title would have been over before Brazil.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:20 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Haribo, don't you dare try and patronise me.

I never said Lewis lost 2012 because of "head games". He lost it at Spa because of "head games" but not the title.

Hamilton is not a consistent driver and hasn't been since 2007. It cost him one title in 2010. What Alonso did the same season isn't relevant because it was Hamilton's two mistakes that cost him his chance. His inconsistency was also what cost him in 2011 against Button. 2012 was reliability but Hamilton still wasn't that consistent season wide.

Speed goes a long way to a title but it doesn't mean you'll win them. It just means Hamilton is better over a single lap than most. But you don't win points on Saturdays. That's what has cost Lewis dearly in some races, he tries to win the race in one lap or one overtaking move and it sometimes bites him in the arse badly. It's a fault of his, all drivers have faults and that is one of his. Simple as that.

Hamilton more critics than Alonso? Than Vettel? Than Button? I don't think so. They all get negative press, they all have fans who'll down them no matter what they do. For god sake Vettel has three titles and people on here still say he's rubbish, that without Red Bull he's nothing. Don't try and claim Hamilton is the only driver on the grid who gets critics. He's not.

You say I need to stop being "anti Hamilton", I say I call it how I see it. I don't wear rose tinted glasses like you Haribo when it comes to Hamilton. Perhaps you should take them off once in a while and see your boy ain't squeaky clean and he isn't faultless.

He lost it in Spa because of Grosjean!

Hamilton is a VERY consistant driver! (Look at the stats)
2010 he lost MORE points due reliabillity than due his error in Monza and the incident with Webber
lIke I said Vettel, webber & Alonso all made more mistakes than Hamilton 2010

Dis you watch the races?
Where was Hamiltom inconsistant 2012?
Answer, please.
Wich driver was more consistant than Hamilton 2012 ?
With the Pirelli tyres 2012, NO race was won only with speed. Hamilton won the 2nd most races of all drivers 2012, he would have won the MOST (7) if not for bad reliabillity.
Most races he won this year he won with tyre management & intelligent, messured driving, not with pure speed ( Canada, Hungary , USa)
When you look at races like USA, Abu Dhabi, Singapore, wher Button did not qualify too much behind, where was he in the races? It's always said Button has the better race pace, but where was he, even after Lewis DNFs why did not Button win those races in the same car?

Hamilton gets a lot more critic than any other driver you just have to read this forum!
What do you think would have happened if Hamilton dropped the F-bomb like Vettel & Kimi did on the podium
What if he swore like Vettel did repeatedly in TV?
Lewis Hamilton must play by different set of rules to Kimi Raikkonen and co
http://duncanblog.dailymail.co.uk/2012/ ... enda-.html

There is a different set of rules wich applies for the drivers. Do you think Hamilton would have got away without critic in the media like Button for some abysmal races like Canada or Monaco or Barcelona 2012?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:23 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Hamilton is not a consistent driver and hasn't been since 2007. It cost him one title in 2010. What Alonso did the same season isn't relevant because it was Hamilton's two mistakes that cost him his chance.

I disagree. I think it is unfair to single out Hamilton as having thrown away the title in 2010 when Alonso, Vettel and Webber also cost themselves (I would argue) a greater number of points that year with mistakes of their own. Alonso jumped the start in China, crashed in Monaco practice to put himself at the back of the grid, cut a corner in Silverstone and earned himself a penalty and crashed out in Belgium. Vettel collided with Webber in Turkey and with Button in Belgium. Webber crashed with Hamilton in Singapore, ran into the back of Kovalainen at Valencia and stuffed it in the wall in Korea.

Yes Hamilton makes mistakes. But so do his rivals.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:23 pm 
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No Hamilton lost his head in Spa on the Saturday when his team mate went 8 tents quicker than him and he didn't understand where most of that time came from. IIRC Hamilton apportioned 4 of those tents to the differing rear wings. The rest he didn't have a bloody clue about. Simply Button outperformed him and he didn't like it. There is no evidence to say he wouldn't have done much better in the race, after all he was regretting that rear wing change big time. No one knows how his race may or may not have gone. But on the Saturday Hamilton lost it completely.

Also Button didn't get away with his dismal spell in 2012. Hamilton fans all over this forum were calling for his sacking, the media were wondering what went wrong, pundits asking if he'd lost something he might not find again. So don't go there.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:25 pm 
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Alonso did not beat Schumacher when the pressure was on, the reality is he lost the title at crunch time (Japan) but Michaels Engine happened to blow up meaning that Alonso went in to the final race 10 points ahead instead of 4 points down. It was not really a title fight, but like this seasons wasn't... the 2006 Ferrari was way superior than the 2006 Renault just like the 2012 Red Bull was vastly superior to the 2012 Ferrari.

In both of Alonsos title winning years he won 1 race in the second half of the season and 6 in the first half.

Having said that, no way did Alonso bottle it in the 2012 title fight. Vettel did, no many incidents did he have in Abu Dhabi and Brazil.

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Last edited by lamo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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